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18 Apr 00 - 04:28 PM (#213891) Subject: 'Milesian' or Militian' in CowAtePiper? From: SDShad In "The Cow Ate the Piper" or "Dinny the Piper," the first two lines are:
In the year ninety-eight, when our troubles were great I've seen versions of this that say the word in question is "militian," and others "Milesian." Which is likelier to be "authentic?" Were the United Irishmen or any of their cohorts in 1798 called "militia?" Or is it a reference to the "Milesian invasion" story of Irish origins, meaning basically that it was treason to be Irish? I've been thinking of transcribing the melody that Andy M. Stewart sings (quite different from the one in the 'Trad already), and posting that with the "Dinny the Piper" words, which are, I think, just different enough to warrant it, but I was wondering on this particular word. Thanks, Chris |
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18 Apr 00 - 04:30 PM (#213893) Subject: RE: 'Milesian' or Militian' in CowAtePiper? From: MMario I would think Milesian |
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18 Apr 00 - 07:02 PM (#213969) Subject: RE: 'Milesian' or Militian' in CowAtePiper? From: MartinRyan "Milesian" it is. The boots belonged to the militia! Regards |
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19 Apr 00 - 09:41 AM (#214261) Subject: RE: 'Milesian' or Militian' in CowAtePiper? From: SDShad "Milesian" makes more sense, really. Thanks for confirming that, folks. Of course, most audiences won't have any idea what you're talking about, they'll figure you're talking about militias, or Malaysians or something. But the meaning of "treason to be a Milesian" really resonates for this song. That said, when I first heard the Andy M. Stewart recording of it, it sounded like "militian," and apparently, from what I've found the last couple of days on the Web and Deja, the liner notes to the LP have it as same. But "Milesian" feels right. Thanks again. Shad |
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20 Apr 00 - 08:57 AM (#214950) Subject: RE: 'Milesian' or Militian' in CowAtePiper? From: MartinRyan "Milesian" also turns up in some versions of "The Flower of Sweet Strabane", often as: "She is the fairest creature of the whole Milesian clan.." Regards |
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20 Apr 00 - 02:23 PM (#215112) Subject: RE: 'Milesian' or Militian' in CowAtePiper? From: zander (inactive) The song actually says ' it was treason to be a musician ' it is called ' Dinny Burns the Piper '. Somewhere out there, there is a great recording by the Irish singer Noel Murphy. Regards, Dave |
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20 Apr 00 - 02:52 PM (#215124) Subject: RE: 'Milesian' or Militian' in CowAtePiper? From: SDShad *sigh*....the folk process.... Now we've a third candidate. Esp. since, as I recall, there were times that the pipes were banned, it makes some sense too. Shad |
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21 Apr 00 - 07:25 AM (#215509) Subject: RE: 'Milesian' or Militian' in CowAtePiper? From: MartinRyan "Musicians" is tempting alright! However: "Milesian" gives a reasonable internal rhyme with "treason" and fits better with the whole mock-heroic tone of the song, IMHO.The song also refers to the "ninety eight" i.e. the 1798 rebellion in Ireland - by which time any ban on musicians was more honoured in the breeches (sic) than the observance! O'Lochlainn's "More Irish Street Ballads", from which all modern versions probaaably derive,quotes a ballad sheet (no details) as source and refers to a "long rambling story and some verses" in O'Neills "Irish Minstrels". Bruce? I must confess I had long suspected this song was, like "Monto", a modern piss-take! Regards |
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21 Apr 00 - 11:14 AM (#215584) Subject: RE: 'Milesian' or Militian' in CowAtePiper? From: Malcolm Douglas There is a ballad-sheet in the Bodleian Library collection: The Cow Eat The Piper. Printer and date are unknown. It has Melesian, which, though mis-spelt, looks like a definitive answer. Malcolm |
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21 Apr 00 - 11:29 AM (#215587) Subject: RE: 'Milesian' or Militian' in CowAtePiper? From: SDShad I love this place! No question too obscure, no resource too off the beaten path. Thanks for the definitive answer, Malcolm. Say, what's the main address for that collection? The link to the song is all CGI stuff, so I'm having trouble finding a "home" link to it.... Chris |
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21 Apr 00 - 11:47 AM (#215593) Subject: RE: 'Milesian' or Militian' in CowAtePiper? From: Malcolm Douglas This ought to do it: http://www.bodley.ox.ac.uk/ballads/ballads.htm It's an extremely useful resource. Malcolm |
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21 Apr 00 - 12:00 PM (#215599) Subject: RE: 'Milesian' or Militian' in CowAtePiper? From: SDShad Found, gone to, and bookmarked. Wow. Already found a version of "House Carpenter" that I'd not seen before. Is this one on the Mudcat bookmarks page? Chris |
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21 Apr 00 - 02:31 PM (#215664) Subject: RE: 'Milesian' or Militian' in CowAtePiper? From: MartinRyan Thanks, Malcolm - I've been meaning to browse through that lot! Regards |
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21 Apr 00 - 04:57 PM (#215751) Subject: RE: 'Milesian' or Militian' in CowAtePiper? From: MartinRyan O'Lochlainn says "The tune resembles 'The Old Leather Breeches'...". On the ballad sheet Malcolm links to above, the same song is given! I reckon he was looking at the same sheet. Regards |
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22 Apr 00 - 06:34 PM (#216221) Subject: RE: 'Milesian' or Militian' in CowAtePiper? From: Susanne (skw) I'm one of the vast number who have no idea what you're talking about. Would someone kindly explain what a 'Milesian' is in this context? I used to think it was a Greek hailing from Milet ... - Thanks, Susanne |
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23 Apr 00 - 08:00 AM (#216473) Subject: RE: 'Milesian' or Militian' in CowAtePiper? From: MartinRyan Suzanne Sorry about that! The Shorter Oxford says: Milesian : Of or pertaining to Milesius, a mythical Spanish king whose sons were said to have conquered the ancient kingdom of Ireland about 1300 BC, or his people; Irish. L16.B n. A member of the people descended from the companions of Milesius; an Irish person. L17. It was used as a poetic term for Irish throgh the last century. Regards |
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23 Apr 00 - 04:10 PM (#216640) Subject: RE: 'Milesian' or Militian' in CowAtePiper? From: MartinRyan Make that "the century before last.."! Regards |
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13 Mar 09 - 07:29 PM (#2588412) Subject: RE: 'Milesian' or Militian' in CowAtePiper? From: MartinRyan Refresh - just clearing the pipes.... Regards |
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14 Mar 09 - 05:42 PM (#2588953) Subject: RE: 'Milesian' or Militian' in CowAtePiper? From: The Sandman Milesian is an Irishman,Ishould know .Dick Miles [milesian] |
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14 Mar 09 - 06:09 PM (#2588965) Subject: RE: 'Milesian' or Militian' in CowAtePiper? From: MartinRyan ..of spanish descent! Regards |
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14 Mar 09 - 06:19 PM (#2588968) Subject: RE: 'Milesian' or Militian' in CowAtePiper? From: Jack Blandiver Here's what Wiki has to say: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milesians_(Irish) |
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14 Mar 09 - 07:22 PM (#2588991) Subject: RE: 'Milesian' or Militian' in CowAtePiper? From: MartinRyan well, I guess a myth is as good as a smile...;>) Regards |
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17 Mar 09 - 07:08 PM (#2591401) Subject: RE: 'Milesian' or Militian' in CowAtePiper? From: The Sandman no a miles is as good as a smith. |
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05 Mar 12 - 06:42 AM (#3317515) Subject: RE: 'Milesian' or Militian' in CowAtePiper? From: GUEST,Pat Shanahan Heard a version of "Dinny Byrne" in Galway in the early 70s and I am pretty sure the singer,an engineering student. called Tommy Healy by the way, sang "militian" |
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