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08 Aug 00 - 02:36 PM (#273679) Subject: We plough and sow... From: Liz the Squeak Looking for a song which starts:
We plough and sow, Basically it was about the rights of the workers being taken from then, and had sentiments like the the mine workers having their wages stopped if they didn't bring up enough coal. The tune was 'The star of the County Down', and yes, I've checked the Digitrad... Thanks, LTS |
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08 Aug 00 - 03:42 PM (#273719) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: We plough and sow... From: Malcolm Douglas It's The Song of the Lower Classes; a 19th. century Chartist poem by Ernest Jones. I haven't heard it sung to that tune, though; Martin Carthy set it to the hymn tune Otford and recorded it on "Out of the Cut" (1982), which is where I know it from. Malcolm |
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08 Aug 00 - 04:39 PM (#273753) Subject: Lyr Add: THE SONG OF THE LOWER CLASSES^^^ From: MMario We plough and sow we are so low That we delve in the dirty clay Till we bless the plain with golden grain And the vale with the fragrant hay Our place we know we are so low Down at the landlord's feet We're not too low the bread to grow Too low the bread to eat Down down we go we are so low To the hell of the deep sunk mine But we gather the proudest gems that glow When the crown of the despot shines Whenever he lacks upon our backs Fresh loads he deigns to lay We're far too low to vote the tax Not too low to pay We're low we're low we're rabble we know Yet at our plastic po ???? The mould at the lordling's feet will grow Into palace and church and town Then prostrate fall in the rich man's hall Cringe at the rich man's door We're not too low to build the wall To low to tread to tread the floor We're low we're low yet from our fingers glide The silken flow and the robes that glow Round the limbs of the sons of pride And what we get and what we give We know and we know our share We're not too low the cloth to weave Too low the cloth to wear We're low we're low we are so low Yet when the trumpets ring The thrust of a poor man's arm will go Through the heart of the proudest king We're low we're low our place we know Only the rank and file We're not too low to kill the foe Too low to touch the spoil ^^^ |
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08 Aug 00 - 05:30 PM (#273783) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: We plough and sow... From: MMario The site I got the words from said the tune was "My old friend John" - which I can't find.... Have found a midi of OTFORD - but it doesn't remotly scan at this point. |
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08 Aug 00 - 05:30 PM (#273784) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: We plough and sow... From: Liz the Squeak That's very similar to the one I learned, but the last verse was different, something about getting to heaven when the rich man wouldn't. But thanks, now I have a starter, I can get the old grey matter working on the bits that I think are different. LTS |
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09 Aug 00 - 04:43 PM (#274533) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: We plough and sow... From: GUEST,Turtle I have a mix tape made by a friend that has a version of this on it, sung by several (three or four) men's voices in harmony, with a fugue on the second half of each verse. It's gorgeous, but I have no idea who the group was or when or where it was recorded. I'd be happy to copy the tape for you if that would be useful, and I'd be even more interested in knowing who the singers are if anyone has heard a version like mine! |
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09 Aug 00 - 04:59 PM (#274549) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: We plough and sow... From: Malcolm Douglas That would be the recording by Martin Carthy I mentioned above, I think. The voices are all his. In verse 3, line 2 is, I think, "...plastic power", rhyming with "tower" rather than "town", in line 4. Malcolm |
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09 Aug 00 - 05:23 PM (#274566) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: We plough and sow... From: Malcolm Douglas There's a detailed piece about Jones here: ERNEST JONES: Chartist and Socialist by Edmund and Ruth Frow. The "My Friend John" reference at Gary Gillard's website is a bit puzzling...perhaps he'll be along to comment. |
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10 Aug 00 - 12:35 PM (#275075) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: We plough and sow... From: GUEST,Turtle Thanks Malcolm! I hear that second line in the third stanza as "Yet out of our/the plastic power" too, but does that really make any sense? I want it to be "plastic clay" or something, but I have to admit that's not what I hear. What sense do you make of the "plastic power" thing? And why am I suddenly coming up as a guest?? |
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10 Aug 00 - 12:53 PM (#275098) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: We plough and sow... From: Malcolm Douglas I managed to find a few verses of the poem online which confirmed "plastic power". I take it to mean something on the lines of "creative skill" -that's plastic in the sculpting, modelling, building sense. Sounds odd to modern ears, of course. Oh, and re-setting your cookie should solve the "guest" thing. Malcolm |
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10 Aug 00 - 02:11 PM (#275170) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: We plough and sow... From: Turtle Yeah, that makes sense. I was thinking of clay/sculpting/modelling, but I hadn't quite got to the "creative skill" translation. It does sound a little odd to modern ears. I'm glad to have the right words; now if I can only convince my singing ensemble members that we ought to do that Martin Carthy version! And thanks for the cookie advice--here I am, myself again! Turtle |
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10 Aug 00 - 06:22 PM (#275368) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: We plough and sow... From: Liz the Squeak No, the version I learned had no plastic in it at all and the last verse was about there being equallity in heaven. It was a bit pushy about religion (i.e., the poor had it and the rich didn't) so I missed most of it out and cobbled two other verses together. LTS |
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10 Aug 00 - 07:24 PM (#275396) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: We plough and sow... From: DougR Does that song sound as depressing as it reads? DougR |
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10 Aug 00 - 08:49 PM (#275439) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: We plough and sow... From: Malcolm Douglas Hmm...sounds like somebody may have done a re-write for their own purposes. Mind you, if anybody can come up with a full version of Jones' original poem, we'll have a good starting point. Malcolm |
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11 Aug 00 - 12:23 PM (#275854) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: We plough and sow... From: Turtle So Liz, are you gonna post those lyrics of yours for us? (nudge, nudge) I'd be interested to see both the ones you used and the ones you didn't . . . |
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11 Aug 00 - 01:22 PM (#275908) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: We plough and sow... From: Anglo Is it as depressing as it sounds? Well, I've taught and sung this (from the Carthy version) with groups and if you get a bit of bitterness and sarcasm into it it's a hell of a lot more uplifting than droning out yet another version of While Shepherds Watched which is what Otford, along with 30,000 other tunes, is a setting of. (Not that Shepherds can't be done right, mind you.) |
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11 Aug 00 - 01:47 PM (#275915) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: We plough and sow... From: Turtle The Martin Carthy version has always felt more stirring & even martial to me than depressing. Anglo, you don't have music for this, with the parts written out, do you? or a tape with the parts separated out? I'm serious about trying to talk Spices (women's a cappella singing ensemble I sing with) into doing this, and it would be a challenge for me to sort out all the parts from the tape I have of Martin Carthy. I'd be happy to send you a tape, pay postage, cook you a fine dinner in return (I'm a great cook, she said modestly)--name your price! |
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11 Aug 00 - 09:28 PM (#276089) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: We plough and sow... From: Liz the Squeak My version ended quite hopefully, in that the overlords got their comeuppance at the gates of heaven.... and definately this version posted here is a rewrite. And if I had the old words, would I have posted a request for the words???? LTS |
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12 Aug 00 - 12:29 AM (#276173) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: We plough and sow... From: Anglo I think it's the other way round, Liz. The Ernest Jones poem is very close to the text posted above, so I would think yours is the rewrite. The original is printed in Pinto & Rodway: The Common Muse. The poem (c.1848) has the note: Music by John Lowry. This song can also be sung to the air of "The Monks of Old" but I don't know anything about either tune. The main textual difference is that Martin Carthy changed the phrase "we're so very, very low" or its variants to "we are so low," presumably to fit his music better. |
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12 Aug 00 - 08:55 AM (#276255) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: We plough and sow... From: Malcolm Douglas I should have thought to look in The Common Muse! Thanks, Anglo. |
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12 Aug 00 - 11:33 AM (#276298) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: We plough and sow... From: Anglo Turtle, did you get my message? Send me a mailing address and I'll send you the music. anglo@albany.net |
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14 Aug 00 - 06:36 AM (#277310) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: We plough and sow... From: Wolfgang Malcolm, I'm quite sure Garry has that 'My friend John' tune information from me, from this old Song of the lower classes thread. I'll have another look at the source I gave in that thread. Wolfgang |
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14 Aug 00 - 09:38 AM (#277362) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: We plough and sow... From: Malcolm Douglas Thanks, Wolfgang. I didn't search the Forum because I thought Liz already had. Presumably "My Friend John" is the tune specified by McDonnell? As Anglo said above, The Common Muse mentions "music by John Lowry"; perhaps there is a connection? Malcolm |
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14 Aug 00 - 11:36 PM (#277926) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: We plough and sow... From: GUEST Thanks to all, especially Malcolm, for this discussion. I've made the changes suggested above (it is "Otford" is it?) in the file on my site, with a link back here.
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15 Aug 00 - 03:25 AM (#278002) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: We plough and sow... From: Wolfgang McDonnell, 'Songs of Struggle and Protest', prints 'Tune: "My old friend John"' which I had read as the title of an older song unknown to me. But it could be read as an indication that then old tune has been written by a person Ernest Jones describes as "My old friend John" which at the first glance looks consistent with John Lowry mentioned above. The tune given in 'Songs of Struggle and Protest' is of course completely different from the tune Martin Carthy sings. Wolfgang |
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16 Oct 00 - 02:01 AM (#319589) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: We plough and sow... From: Garry Gillard 'Plastic' here - if it is right - doesn't refer to that stuff in your kitchen. The word goes back to 1632, and has a couple of senses - perhaps the one in use here is 'causing the growth or production of natural forms, esp. of living organisms; formerly as an attribute of an alleged principle, virtue, or force in nature ... etc. 1646 (OED) Garry |
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23 Feb 02 - 08:20 AM (#655988) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: We plough and sow... From: GUEST,JJ This morning, I've been trying to teach myself Noteworthy Composer. As a result, I have a midi of the three part harmony version of 'Otford' transcribed from Martin Carthy's book: 'A Guitar in Folk Music' I can't send it as a MIDItxt as that only copes with the melody; here the harmony is intrinsic to the effect. How might I submit it to the DT? Thanks JJ
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23 Feb 02 - 09:08 AM (#656007) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: We plough and sow... From: greg stephens Going back to the beginning of this interesting thread i noticed the reference to this song being sung to tune "The star of the county down" and not followed up. The history of that connection lies in a play Miles Malleson(more famous as a comic actor) wrote about the Tolpuddle martyrs. Called, possibly "Six men of Dorset"( I'm speaking from 40 year old memory, that may be wrong). Anyway in the play Malleson used the song, and in the TV production i remember watching as a lad it was sung to the hymn tune Kingsfold (I heard the voice of Jesus say): which is a traditional tune and as near as damn it the same tune as "The star of the county down". so there is one connection of those words and that tune. Doubtless someone will quickly post the date of the play and the correct title if ie misremembered it. To add my own bit, I did the music for a show about the Chartists called "1842" in Stoke a while back, and used that tune for the song. I've never heard the Carthy version, I must lookfor it. |
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23 Feb 02 - 09:10 AM (#656008) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: We plough and sow... From: nutty I know this is an old thread and everything about the song that can be said has been ...... but here is a copy of an original broadside which may be of interestSONG OF THE LOWER CLASSES |
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23 Feb 02 - 09:15 AM (#656011) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: We plough and sow... From: GUEST Regarding submitting the tune: I know that Malcolm Douglas, the doyen of intelligent mudcat posters, sends his midis to Alan of Oz MMario is also keen on getting tunes. Hope that helps |
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23 Feb 02 - 10:32 AM (#656057) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: We plough and sow... From: MMario JJ - the way I have coped with multiple lines is to do each seperately in miditxt and send the multiple part midi to Alan of Oz |
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23 Feb 02 - 10:58 AM (#656073) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: We plough and sow... From: nutty IF you want multiple lines to play harmony you use Staff/New Staff or Cont+A. The staffs (staves) are placed underneath each other and can be written onto seperately but play simultaneously. |
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23 Feb 02 - 06:00 PM (#656348) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: We plough and sow... From: Liz the Squeak Thanks very much for all of this, it is the one I remember bits of. LTS |
