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11 Sep 00 - 02:39 PM (#295129) Subject: The term 'folk Nazi' From: Mike Regenstreif In the Arlo Guthrie thread today, someone referred to people who don't like Arlo performing with orchestras as "folk Nazis." I've seen that term bandied about many times in Mudcat threads, and elsewhere, usually describing people who are traditionalists. I've also seen such terms as "health Nazis," used to describe anti-tobacco activists, or "gun Nazis," used to describe advocates of gun control. Such usage of the word "Nazi" is highly offensive and cheapens its meaning. The Nazis were perpetrators of some the greatest evils of history: genocide, religious, racial and sexual hatred, war, etc. The Nazi regime murdered 6 million Jews and more millions of others including Gypsies, homosexuals, and anyone who didn't toe their despicable party line. Advocates of traditional music, gun control or tobacco control have nothing is common with Naziism at any level. Mike Regenstreif |
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11 Sep 00 - 02:46 PM (#295133) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: Steve Latimer Here, here. |
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11 Sep 00 - 02:50 PM (#295136) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: SINSULL Blame rush Limbaugh who started it all with "feminazi". |
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11 Sep 00 - 02:53 PM (#295139) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: MMario no - it's been around longer then that. |
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11 Sep 00 - 02:54 PM (#295142) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: wysiwyg Mike, I appreciate the clarity with which you made your point. I think people use the kind of unfortunate shorthand to which you allude, in an attempt to indicate the importance they place on values they feel are at stake. I say unfortunate because using a button-pushing word usually accomplishes the exact opposite of what is intended, which usually is clear communication. I would hope-- before a universally defensive tone develops in this thread where we all take turns assuring each other we never meant this or that or whatever offense-- that we all just pause and give thanks for the access we have to one another's hearts in this forum. That access is a precious thing to be well cared for. I think when a topic or an approach to it hurts or offends, it's appropriate to holler a good clear OUCH. I know in my case that when I do this, I just want that OUCH to be heard and for an understanding of it to be incorporated in the future communication. Good on ya, Mike. ~Susan |
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11 Sep 00 - 02:58 PM (#295144) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: Mike Regenstreif I don't see why anyone in this community should want to use Rush Limbaugh as their role model. MR |
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11 Sep 00 - 03:03 PM (#295151) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: katlaughing Very good point, Mike, thanks for bringing it up. For my efforts as an op/ed columnist, I received an email, today, after publication of a pro-homosexual column,with no mention of the right to choose issue, telling me "I might add that individuals who hold your line of thinking are the same ones who support Nazism at its worst; it is called abortion." Charley Reese, IMO, a despicable far right columnist, calls anyone who is pro-gay rights, the "sodomite lobby" and also equats them with Nazism and non-Christian. He uses the Nazi label quite freely and often, saying that the liberals of this country are heading us right into the same kind of debauchery, etc. that led up to the Third Reich! Sorry for the rant. Thanks, kat |
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11 Sep 00 - 03:06 PM (#295153) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: GUEST, Banjo Johnny Okay, what's the alternative? How can you describe someone who thinks he (or she) has the God-given right to tell everyone else what to do? How about Folk Republicans? == Johnny in OKC |
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11 Sep 00 - 03:06 PM (#295154) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: wysiwyg Well, MR, I think Mudcat can be safe even for people who do want to use Rush Limbaugh for a role model. NOT PC enough-- safe enough. To be tolerant enough that people continue to give one another access to their thoughts. Without that access, we cannot learn from each other. I would hope this place continues to be one that lets us do that. I don't want anyone to go away for lack of tolerance. I would hope the music is bigger than all of that, and makes us so as well. ~S~ |
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11 Sep 00 - 03:14 PM (#295161) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: Lonesome EJ Sorry,but the term "Folk Nazi" is pretty hilarious in my view.I get a mental picture of some jack-booted thug in a greek fisherman's cap wearing a 12 string and a Lugar,saying "Ve haff vays of making you play zee traditional muzik!" As for Limbaugh,its the oldest form of propaganda known to man...come up with a term that is likely to be applied to you,and use it first against your enemies. |
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11 Sep 00 - 03:24 PM (#295167) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: Mike Regenstreif Lonesome EJ, Your mental picture is exactly what I was referring to when I said that inappropriate use of the word "Nazi" cheapens its meaning. MR |
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11 Sep 00 - 03:27 PM (#295169) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: Metchosin sometimes we laugh to keep from weeping. |
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11 Sep 00 - 03:28 PM (#295170) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: Thomas the Rhymer Hey Mike, I'm with ya all the way. I have heard these 'enforcers' refer to the offenders as 'gestapo' on many occasions, and though it is less offensive somehow when someone makes reference to a genecidal police state organisation, instead of the political party and ideals that underly it's approach, it is still horrid. The need to use such terms to make a point about music surely indicates misplaced priorities, and speaks volumes as to the volitility of our excessively corralled and haltered emotions. Music is entertainment; not genocidal fascism. Sometimes I think that people are allergic to the appreciation of others, and can only show appreciation if they 'need' to 'impress' someone. A sucky siren serenade is a pretty poor excuse for appreciation. The whole dynamic about musical taste being so important that rude inhospitible insulting distractions ensue from polite conversation is inconcievable to me, and yet it happens to all of us. Odd ain't it? Double scoop-o-the best, ttr |
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11 Sep 00 - 03:34 PM (#295173) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: SINSULL Actually LEK, he is carrying a banjo with the following printed on it: "This banjo surrounds hate and embraces it". Sorry. He made me do it. I am still not clear what a "folk Nazi" is. Any clear definitions? |
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11 Sep 00 - 03:38 PM (#295177) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: Metchosin guess Jerry Seinfeld (not to mention the entire city of New York) should have held his tongue when he referred to the Soup Nazi. (but it wouldn't have been half as funny) |
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11 Sep 00 - 03:39 PM (#295178) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: Naemanson Mike, you've made a good point. I used to think the term was funny until it was applied to me (and others) in the Arlo thread. It quickly lost its humor. Still there is a lot to be said for disarming through humor. I love Lonesome EJ's mental picture because it is a charicature of Nazis that they themselves would hate. Given the choice at a Aryan Nation rally I would rather laugh at them than yell at them. Anger and hate are their stock in trade and plays into their hands. Laughing at them defuses them and holds them up to the ridicule they so richly deserve. How about following Banjo Johnny's idea and coming up with another term? How about Folk Fascist? Same connotation but maybe not as pointed. |
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11 Sep 00 - 03:44 PM (#295180) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: wysiwyg Why split hairs on how to cast an insult, and instead forgo the opportunity to look at something negatively altogether? ~S~ |
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11 Sep 00 - 03:48 PM (#295182) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: Sean Belt Mike wrote: >>In the Arlo Guthrie thread today, someone referred to people who don't like Arlo performing with orchestras as "folk Nazis." How about instead we refer to them as "really-silly-people-who-think-they-know-it-all-and-have-the-right-to-tell-us-what's-righteous-and-good-for-us"? Nah. It just doesn't have that ring to it. But the truth is that, that's pretty much what they are. And fairly harmless at that. Name calling never really helps anything. If you happen to like Arlo Guthrie playing with an orhestra (and just for the record, I'm not wild about it) or Pete Seeger playing with a large choir (which on the other hand, I quite enjoy), or anything which is out of the narrow confines of "the way the music's always been played", then who cares what other people's taste tells them. You like it. That's what matters. - Sean
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11 Sep 00 - 03:48 PM (#295183) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: Joe Offer Well, I dunno. What the Nazis did was so unspeakably horrible that it does seem inappropriate to speak humorously of Nazis and the Gestapo. However, I think that humor may be a very strong tool we can use to help ensure that these horrors never happen again. If we speak of Nazis in hushed tones, we may even give them a sort of credibility. If we use terms like "folk nazi" or "soup nazi," or whatever, we make Nazis look ridiculous. If there's one fear the Neo-Nazis have, it's the fear of looking ridiculous. -Joe Offer- |
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11 Sep 00 - 03:50 PM (#295184) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: Metchosin agreed Joe. |
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11 Sep 00 - 03:52 PM (#295186) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: Naemanson Actually, Sean, the way the show was taped the orchestra was very understated so it didn't really intrude on what Arlo was doing. Plus he was wearing a tux as only a son of Woody could wear one. It looked too big, he had ditched the bowtie, and unbuttoned the shirt. With his flowing white hair it looked pretty good. |
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11 Sep 00 - 04:00 PM (#295191) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: Thomas the Rhymer Someone who enlists the musical notions of others, as to 'what' to play, doing it by the book, doing it by rote, perhaps even to the exclusion of having fun... and that the appreciation given, is directly proportional to the hightly judgemental and imposing belief that there is a certain way to do 'it' (and this person knows what that way is...). These people seldom encourage newcomers (except to humiliate them of course), and form a closed circle of 'power' with rituals of abuse written into the code of conduct,...which is geared towards keeping their circle on top, because of an insane infatuation with their own POWERFUL sway...Fascist is a more subtle classification ie... nothing to do with joyful communion, and individual healing processes singing/choosing songs they love. ttr |
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11 Sep 00 - 04:09 PM (#295194) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: wysiwyg No, Thomas, you are right, and that is precisely why it is incumbent on those who CAN love, to love, even the hard-to-love, for how else do they learn about it? We may say some have chosen not to love. The past is determined, but the future, no matter how firmly entrenched someone seems in a present-time behavior and mindset, is entirely free choice. The choice to love is more powerful, always. It always has a greater potential to positively impact the future. Who are we to know which act of love toward someone might make the difference and strike them on just the day they are ready to stop posturing? ~S~ |
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11 Sep 00 - 04:17 PM (#295198) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: mousethief A far better term would be "folk police" because it captures the idea far more accurately, without cheapening any words. These people want to enforce what is called folk and what isn't - as police enforce criminal law. Just as on many e-mailing lists, the people who are always telling others not to post off-topic posts are referred to as "the topic police." Similarly for clothing police, etc. Just my US$.02. |
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11 Sep 00 - 04:22 PM (#295202) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: Hedy West (current membership) Which terms don't get used/abused; we're constantly depreciating our language and our thoughts. But the use of "Nazi", "Hitler", "fascism" is ubiquitous; It's seared on the front of all our brains. It's a favorite cliché of high school debaters, for example. "There comes Hitler again," say the judges. Brandishing those terms, however, is done by right and left; and the counting of corpses is done from both sides of the political spectrum, but only of the corpses created by their opponents. We DO need to look at our own offenses. And at our own blinders. Think, rethink, and then, think again. Hedy West |
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11 Sep 00 - 04:34 PM (#295206) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: Hedy West (current membership) Joe, you make good sense. And anyhow, you're respectful and most unoppressive! Very unlike a fascist. Hedy (Beware of the bossy!) |
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11 Sep 00 - 04:41 PM (#295211) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: Fortunato thanks Mike for making me think about this. I agree with your characterization of Nazis, and others here. However I believe that words and slogans degrade naturally over time, and one way we see this is in 'humorous' uses of these 'formerly' abhorrent terms. When a subject is humorous and when a term is no longer so abhorent as to prevent its use will be disagreed on. However the slow degrade of the term is inevitable and perhaps healing. My opinion is look to the context and usage. Although there have been other fiendish and bloody subjects they have degraded over time. Example: The Spanish Inquisition. Would we protest at the use of the word inquisition. In what year will it be acceptable to use the word nazi in other than it's literal sense? It will come. Fortunato |
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11 Sep 00 - 04:55 PM (#295218) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: Jeri I think some rather small people have a need to demonize those they disagree with, and often call them the vilest names they can think of. Imagine you're talking with someone about a person who doesn't like electric guitars used to play folk songs. Imagine you call that person a "folk nazi" and the person you're talking to informs you their parents died at Auschwitz at the hands of the real nazis. They ask you to explain how someone who has done nothing worse than dislike electric guitars can compare to a group of people who slaughtered millions of men, women and children. What do you say?
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11 Sep 00 - 04:58 PM (#295219) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: catspaw49 The power of words.......... Its not just amazing, its more than that. Would that I could defuse the malevolent intent while never forgetting the origins. Would that I could make laughable the serious users. Would that I could steal the power to harm. I doubt that any here have but detest and hatred for the fascist regime of Hitler and the atrocities of the times. But time will change the power ... but only we can keep alive the remembrance and through it the assurance that it not happen again. Tough subject. Spaw |
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11 Sep 00 - 05:33 PM (#295238) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: Mbo Well since I was the "someone" on the Arlo thread who said it, I suppose I should apologize.
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11 Sep 00 - 05:42 PM (#295243) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: gillymor Using -nazi behind anything someone's obsessive about doesn't, in my opinion, show any disrespect for victims of the Third Reich but rather helps to keep nazism down at a level in our culture that it deserves to be at. However, I agree with Jeri, I think it's a rather mean spirited epithet to be using around this mostly friendly forum. And kat, that sounds like vintage Charley. I'm sorry to learn he's become something more than a local (South FL) disease. Frankie |
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11 Sep 00 - 06:16 PM (#295257) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: IvanB It seems to me that, all too often, epithets like "folk nazi" are hurled at posters who are doing nothing more than stating their opinions. The Nazis as we have come to know them were not about free exchange of opinion - they were about crushing free opinion by some of the most atrocious means known to humankind. I have to agree with Praise. The use of epithets on Mudcat can only serve to lessen the sense of freedom and trust we share which allows us to exchange our ideas freely. Better we offer our contrasting opinions than trying to belittle others for the opinions they hold. |
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11 Sep 00 - 06:34 PM (#295263) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: katlaughing Frankee, me, too. I am glad to say, though, that I've received only one pro-Charley email today as opposed to several thank you's for the rebuttal I wrote. Thanks, kat |
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11 Sep 00 - 06:38 PM (#295267) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: GUEST,Jew The term "Nazi," attached to anything even remotely sane is still an ugly word. It shouldn't be used for humour. To do so, lessens the impact of the acts, to which it was associated. I have never been given the impression that neo-nazism is rampant on this website so I know it was used in humour. I don't laugh at that humour. I do not mean to chastise the members of this mudcat cafe, but would ask that you think about it a little more before using it. Fortunato: My family are Sepphardic Jews, who left North Africa for Spain, only to be tortured by the Spanish Inquizition for their religious beliefs. Thank you for taking time to "think." |
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11 Sep 00 - 06:52 PM (#295273) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: wysiwyg GUEST Jew, You are welcome here. I would like to learn more about your traditions. I hope you will join as a member so we can exchange personal messages. ~Susan |
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11 Sep 00 - 06:56 PM (#295276) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: Hollowfox I share your wishes,Spaw. As to why people use the abhorrent in this way...I was told in my college anthropology classes that people joke about things that they fear, or make them nervous. |
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11 Sep 00 - 07:14 PM (#295287) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: McGrath of Harlow I can see how a term like that might spring to mind to refer to someone who was saying that some peculiar variation on the music ought not to be allowed, and that anyone who tried to do it ought to be roughed up or something. But just for saying that they don't like it? Or that it didn't fit in their understanding of the term "folk" - seems a bit over the top.
Actually the Nazis were very fond of the word "volk" themselves, and there were plenty of real folk Nazis. Just as in Serbia and Bosnia these last few years there've been folk musicians encouraging genocide, and mass murderers sponsoring folk bands. Real folk Nazis. Just because it's folk doesn't mean it's wholesome, unfortunately.
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11 Sep 00 - 07:17 PM (#295288) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: harpgirl Well, I understood what you meant, Meebs. The nazis were people: human beings. We have been committing atrocities against one another for as long as history has recorded our stories. Who knows why? Maybe we will evolve, (if we ever get off this planet) and we will revere life the way Buddhists do, all of us. |
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11 Sep 00 - 07:28 PM (#295292) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: Metchosin Hollowfox, I rather perfer this understanding or definition of of humour here |
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11 Sep 00 - 07:28 PM (#295293) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: Giac IMHO, Hedy and GUEST, Jew both used the key word: Think. It's easy to pick up a catchy phrase that seems humorous on the surface and adopt it for one's very own. But, in such a diverse group, or any group for that matter, one should look deeper and decide if that phrase might hurt someone's feelings, or offend a friend. This doesn't take away one's freedom of speech, it just reinforces one's freedom of courtesy to another human, even a virtual one. Friends, including virtual ones, are too special to hurt with a casual thoughtless remark. Giac (floundering down off her soapbox) |
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11 Sep 00 - 08:39 PM (#295326) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: Naemanson We all agree that the nazis, past and present, are reprehensible and the use of their name is also in poor taste. But what do we do about it? This country (the United States) allows the free expression of ideas and opinions, even theirs. They deal in hate and anger. We will never out hate them. We will never out anger them. We must take another approach. I still believe that humor is the right approach but it must never be a form that makes them look good or harmless. It must always be a form that makes them out to be the subject of ridicule. And we must always keep in mind that they are always capagble of causing great pain. |
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11 Sep 00 - 08:44 PM (#295331) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: Groucho Marxist (inactive) My parents are Holocaust survivors. Both lost their parents and all of their siblings to the Nazis. Whenever I see or hear someone using the word "Nazi" in a flippant or joking manner, I have to assume that they are either ignorant of 20th Century history or extremely malicious. Rush Limbaugh is, indeed, an extremely malicious man. Jery Seinfeld should have known better. Groucho |
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11 Sep 00 - 08:47 PM (#295334) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: SINSULL I don't believe Mbo owes anyone an apology. He used the term exactly as it has been used around here for as long as I have been a member. But I am glad that Mike called attention to the inappropriateness of the term. And I think mousethief has the perfect solution. "Folk Police" works just as well in describing the activity. From what I've read poor Arlo has both the folk and clothing police to contend with. Painful to think of him with grey hair. |
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11 Sep 00 - 08:48 PM (#295335) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: GUEST, Banjo Johnny I'm not sure "folk police" parallels the other terms. The nazis were bad, the fascists were bad. But the police are not bad. They deal with bad people. How about folk-extremists ... no historical references. These people do exist, and I run into them occasionally. == Johnny in OKC |
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11 Sep 00 - 08:55 PM (#295344) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: Mbo Or "Folktator" |
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11 Sep 00 - 09:03 PM (#295350) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: balladeer As long as there is the possibility that I might find myself in converstaion with a Holocaust survivor, or the child of a survivor, or the child of a child of a survivor -- in other words, in my lifetime, it will remain too soon for me to use the term "nazi" in a humorous context. I think "folk fascist" has a catchy ring -- but then I wonder whether such terms are truly useful at all. Don't they just help us avoid the struggle to find the words to say what we really mean? |
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11 Sep 00 - 09:41 PM (#295367) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: BDtheQB "Rabid Traditionalist" is perhaps the best description of what is meant. I am a person who is always trying to find humor in everything and I nearly posted a rebuttal type of "joke" to the FN thing. It was funny, in the way that a blonde joke or Polish joke is funny but I refrained because of the very thing being discussed here. I am now glad that I refrained from the posting. I am not in any fashion hateful, heck I even don't mind that Rush guy living on the same planet but funny is funny if it is funny. Unfortunately we can't be funny in any of the old fashioned Traditionalist ways anymore. It is in a way a shame but I do know that the world changes and moves on. I just wonder what would happen to the old "Yiddish" comedians today if they had to use their old acts. Amos and Andy were reasonably humorous in their time to most folks but would never be correct today. It is a sign of the times and we must change with them but we should record the legacy of what has passed and make sure that no revisionism takes control of our history as it has in the past. Was George Washington really that honest? |
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11 Sep 00 - 09:44 PM (#295368) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: Ebbie I wholeheartedly agree with those who take umbrage at the casual or humorous use of the term "Nazi". An analogy that works for me: Let's say that my child was hideously murdered. Let's call the murderer 'John Gacy'. If years later, I discovered that people were casually or humorously saying, That guy or that situation is a real john gacy, not only would I be offended, I would be devastated by their stupidity. IMO there can never be anything funny about John Gacy. Take my point? Ebbie |
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11 Sep 00 - 09:46 PM (#295371) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: Mbo Again, I'm sorry for starting this whole can of worms. Boy, you really know how to make a guy feel like the scum of the earth. |
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11 Sep 00 - 09:55 PM (#295377) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: GUEST The war has been over for more than fifty years. The Jews should get over their complexes about the nazis. Mbo, if you want to use the name folk nazis to describe folk nazis, its ok with me. |
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11 Sep 00 - 09:57 PM (#295379) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: wysiwyg Please. Let's let that last one go. Please. Please. ~S~ |
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11 Sep 00 - 10:21 PM (#295389) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: GUEST,Rich(bodhránai gan ciall) You know, I've been called a folk nazi, a purist and a folk snob. They can all piss me off depending the circumstance. I don't rationally believe that somebody is implying I want to kill six million people if I say I don't care for Eileen Ivers playing through a bunch of effects. There are things I like that other people think are way out in left field and vice-versa. Martin Hayes and Dennis Cahill are anything but traditional and I love their music while a couple friends of mine shook their heads. Language is a funny thing. A carelessly coined expression can quickly become part of standard speech. It's not right but I seriously don't think its intended in the context it seems to have been interpreted here. On the other hand, I'm not of Jewish or Polish descent and as such really can't voice a valid opinion as to how offensive such a term is to people of said lineage. It's like sitting in an Irish pub here in the States and throwing around a bunch of barroom rhetoric about the politiacal situationin the North, or singing abunch of IRA ballads to get a gig. I don't have to live in a war-zone as a result of it so I really am not entitled to a vote. I can say that I'm over half German and have the term nazi thrown at me specifically as an ethnic slur on a couple of occasions (once on my way to play an anti-KKK rally) and THAT really made me angry. It's a distasteful term and you've made a valid point but as I said earlier it's generally not intended in that context. Slán agat, Rich |
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11 Sep 00 - 10:30 PM (#295394) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: bflat Sorry Susan, can't keep quiet. The post prior to yours is the opinion of a coward and someone of questionable character. To use words that hurt and promulgate hatred is morally wrong. To ingore such is equally morally wrong. Shame on you for your ill will. bflat |
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11 Sep 00 - 10:32 PM (#295395) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: bflat Correction: ignore and shame on the Guest. |
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11 Sep 00 - 10:33 PM (#295396) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: Bill D .....coming late to this discussion, but one who is concerned.. you know, a few years ago, during pledge week on our local NPR station, the local folk DJ read my contribution on the air and commented..."oh, this is from Bill D, our local 'folk facist'"....*grin*... well, I took it in good spirit, because I knew her and knew it was a joke, exaggerated for effect...but 'live' or in person, it is much easier to judge the flavor of the comment, whereas, in print, or here in a discussion forum it isn't! This is one of the reasons why so many flame wars happen. The WWW/internet is still so new that we have not figured out how to relate VT yet...words just sit there, and the one who posted them is faceless...and we type words we might not use in a face-to-face meeting. And it can be hours or days before explanations are made. Nazi is a word that should not be used carelessly, as the images it brings up are WAY too tender and horrible....I guess if anyone said it to my face, I could judge them at the time...but they'd BETTER be smiling right! |
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11 Sep 00 - 11:04 PM (#295410) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: balladeer Mbo: I hope you're joking with that "scum of the earth" remark. Look on the bright side. You sparked a lively discussion. Guest: You and others who share your views are the reason so many do so much hard work to keep images of WWII always alive in the public imagination. We must never forget. |
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12 Sep 00 - 12:10 AM (#295442) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: GUEST,John I feel sick. With mutual understanding and assent (with Praise's notable exception) you collectively decry the use of a word that has clearly semantically morphed to a lesser meaning within our culture as a whole, and chosen words, current in the gravity of their meaning, and condemned someone (Limbaugh) whom I would guess you have had characterized for you (not first-hand). I regularly hear the left using the inflamatory language that lessens the quality of debate. In this election year, as in the past several, it will be said with stunning regularity (every time a republican references the stance of his opponent) that the republicans rely on "Negative Campaigning" when clearly an honest assesment of the situation would have to note that, if that is negative, than both sides use it equally. Whoever made the post that pointed out that we seem only to take exception with the words we choose when it is our "ox that is being gored" was quite insightful. John |
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12 Sep 00 - 12:16 AM (#295445) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: CamiSu Really good discussion. Mbo, don't feel bad, we all get corrected for mistakes sometimes. What we need to feel bad about is not seeing when our behavior should change. I truly had not thought much about the idea of using the word 'Nazi' as has been pointed out here. I've heard it and not really reacted. My apologies. As so many of you have pointed out, it does hurt and silence often implies consent. However, I certainly do react with distress to the rise of the Neo-Nazi movement around the world. It is simply incomprehensible to me that such evil can be welcomed by anyone, and I for one do find it extremely difficult to love those that hold these views, (or even to laugh at them--I tend to feel sick), so I think I will have to hold back on that for now. I realize that anger only feeds them, so I try to express love for that which they hate, and am getting more bold in expressing my disagreement with the 'Take Back Vermont-ers'. But Thomas, music is so much more than entertainment. It is powerful--particularly folk music, because it is our voice. This is not just PC, because we have all this history where we've been working out these problems, but what we write now has power to express our new ideas. Thank you all-and my response to the Guest is "Those who forget the past are condemned to repeat it." This doesn't mean we are stuck there, Just that we DON'T forget. Cami Su |
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12 Sep 00 - 12:29 AM (#295455) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: katlaughing BillD, like the Virginian said to Trampas "Smile when you call me that." |
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12 Sep 00 - 01:15 AM (#295482) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: CamiSu Sorry Guest John. I have heard Limbaugh. He's pretty hateful. I realise he's not the only one, but he certainly brooks no disagreement and resorts to namecalling pretty quickly. He seems to truly enjoy pushing buttons and when he gets someone more intelligent than he is (and many if not most of his callers are pretty sorry debaters) he just cuts them off. My friend and sometimes boss could laugh and say "Oh, it's only Rush." I wasn't quite that patient.. Cami Su |
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12 Sep 00 - 01:17 AM (#295483) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: Lepus Rex Oh, everything I was going to say has been said... I don't find 'folk Nazi' offensive, and unless you all think the Nazis were something valuable, how could this term 'cheapen it's meaning?' If you were comparing your foes to Holocaust victims, THAT would be offensive. But equating Nazis with closed-minded assholes? Seems pretty appropriate to me. I'd hate to see some of you more-sensitive folks when 'Hogan's Heroes' comes on the tv... ;) ---Lepus Rex |
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12 Sep 00 - 03:38 AM (#295518) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: Lena Nazis were just the only bastards to be recognized and labelled(when their ideology became out of fashon).There are other human crimes still on which bring no label nor condemnation.I'd like the word 'nazi'to be cheapened down,so that it doesn't refer anymore to some isolated evil episode in human history.We are all liable to be nazi,as soon as we shut our tolerance down,our intelligence,our connection with all human beings.A nazi is not a person suddenly possessed by the devil.a nazi is a person like me,or you,who turns another human being(or his difference) into the 'evil'.And I've had enough practical examples of that in the last ten years.If you feel offended because to you it's like a profanation of the hebrew tragedy,fair enough.But please be tolerant with other people's ways of expressing theirselves. |
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12 Sep 00 - 05:06 AM (#295534) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: Callie Here here Lena. As an Australian I have to live with the fact that the English colonists committed genocide on our Indigenous peoples. And that's a global atrocity. So why is the term 'Fascist' less offensive than 'Nazi'? Because they killed fewer people? Is this a quantitative thing? As an Italian, I find the term 'Fascist' used in everyday contexts offensive, but I also need to be able to laugh at the term when it's used humorously. I wholeheartedly support Mike R's sentiments, but what they don't allow for is for we humans to have to laugh at human atrocities in order to deal with them. Laughter and crying - opposite sides of the same coin. What a poignant moment it was when Mel Brooks sang "Hitler in Springtime". However, as with all humour, it needs to dealt in sensitive doses in some instances, because the tragedy is just too great. Callie |
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12 Sep 00 - 06:36 AM (#295554) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: sledge If there is to be highlighting of such behaviour in the past I wonder how the people of Abyssinia feel about Italians. |
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12 Sep 00 - 08:55 AM (#295586) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: Jeri Mbo, you're not the first, nor will you be the last to use that term. Your comment was only an example, and is (IMO) not the sole reason for this discussion. (And I missed it in the Arlo thread.) There are some things it's good to be desensitized to - I don't believe this is one of them. When I was a kid and watched Hogan's Heroes, my parents explained that a good number of folks didn't think it was funny at all. The Nazis weren't warm and cuddly and nice to laugh at. They ripped the guts out of people. There are people who still believe they have a right to kill those they don't like. The German people, for the most part, embraced the Nazis. We aren't any different from the way they were, other than we remember what they did. While they were tearing people from their homes and putting them into concentration camps, we in the US were doing the same with the Japanese-Americans. We just never got to the point of intentionally killing our prisoners. It could happen again if we forget. How big a step is it from "we have a right to kill people in other countries we don't like" (war) to "we have a right to kill people in our own country we don't like?" The Man That Talks Trash Every Day by David Diamond. Re Rush Limbaugh - I used to listen to his show at lunchtime. I frequently didn't make it through the entire show. He seemed to constantly divert conversation away from the subject by provoking emotional responses. He would call people names and lump them into groups he didn't like until it became more like "bash the caller" than "debate the subject." The same thing happens here when someone's afraid of losing an argument. They quit talking about the subject and go for the throat. They attack the person instead of the issue. It happens in politics, and while neither side is above personal attacks, it seems that Republicans (at least in the last Presidential election) have made it policy. For me, this is a akin to admitting "we can't win when we discuss political issues." Forget "PC." Yeah, we have a right to free speech. The decision comes down to whether using that particular term is more important to us than hurting people.
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12 Sep 00 - 09:30 AM (#295595) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: Naemanson Callie, you've hit a sensitive point with me. As a citizen of the United States I too have to live within a society that once committed genocide against an entire race of people. It is a shame and a disgrace. We need to keep in mind a very disturbing fact. The Nazis were only people who were unleashed. There leadership made it OK to do what they did. That ability to hate, to injure, and to kill lurks beneath the surface of all too many of our neighbors. Believe me when I say this. I was raised to be a redneck. I learned a lot about hate born in ignorance from my father and his friends. I could tell you stories of casual remarks that would call down the flames of hell on my head. Let me just say that Guest's remarks are pale and flacid in comparison. There has to be a way to defuse the hate. Rush Limbaugh fed that hate and ignorance for whatever reason. Others keep it alive. It is our job to turn that around, through our love and our music. It is easy to agree here about what those people are. It is more difficult to speak out when we are among them but that is where we are needed. I am not a Christian but I have taken the ideals into my heart. I conform to the commandments and lessons as best I can. I have learned the lessons about the value of humanity and love. I am no longer a redneck. I was cured by knowledge, friendship and love. Oh, and I know this approach will work because I have seen it work on my father too. |
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12 Sep 00 - 09:32 AM (#295596) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: reggie miles Mbo, I didn't read the thread where this term was originally posted though I have heard the term used elsewhere. Playing music on the street one is often enough confronted by folks, who for one reason or another, can't relate. I can't speculate as to the why of it but somehow they feel it's their responsibility to force people who enjoy this activity to move along and find some other location to perform. They often voice their complaints about such activities to authorities who have laws passed and rules enacted which allow security and police forces to treat these people as criminals for singing songs and playing music in this fashion. Perhaps the power of a single individual who has the courage to stand up and express himself musically is something that threatens some basic programming language that they have imbedded in their code. That's where I first heard the term FN used. It was applied to those who would actually use security or police to force buskers, by threat of fines or jail time or worse, to stop playing. Frankly, when I have been prevailed upon by these sort of tactics for busking I feel bewildered. I just can't envision what it is that is so threatening about performming in this way that it would cause others to take such drastic measures to prohibit it. Cornfused |
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12 Sep 00 - 10:02 AM (#295612) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: CamiSu That's a use of the term I've never heard. And while I'm not sure why someone would object to good street music, I suspect it's related to the fact that someone might enjoy it, and there are people out there who want to be sure none of us has fun or expresses joy in public! (Of course there was the kid who played "Octopus' Garden" on his sax every day for HOURS on the Boulder Mall. There was some talk of saxicide, but we did learn to ignore it. We figured his mother told him to take it elsewhere and he happened to like that bench... BTW Arlo looks great with grey hair. |
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12 Sep 00 - 10:04 AM (#295614) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: GeorgeH I detest Nazism whether committed by those who gave us the term, those who preceeded them or those who succeeded them. My Government/Nation and yours amongst them. Which is precisely why I abhore the view which suggests that the meaning of the term has somehow changed BECAUSE of its debased usage. Nazism is evil embodied in the state. Any lesser usage of it devalues our common language and (by making the term "more acceptable" - as some here clearly find it to be) helps cast a gloss over the evils of the Third Reich. Which is in no way to castigate Mbo for his careless use of the term - we all make gross errors of judgement at times! G. |
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12 Sep 00 - 10:08 AM (#295617) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: Groucho Marxist (inactive) I've only been reading and posting at Mudcat Cafe for a few weeks, but I now feel so sick at heart that I think it will be a long time before I return again, if I ever return. First of all, my thanks to Mike Regenstrief for raising this issue. He said things that I've wanted to say whenever I've encountered people using terms like "folk Nazi." I would also like to thank several contributors to this thread for their insightful comments: Praise, kat/katlaughing, Thomas the Rhymer, Hedy West, Jeri, Spaw, IvanB, Guest-Jew, Giac, balladeer, BDtheQB, Ebbie, bflat, CamiSu. The Guest who suggested that the Jews get over their complexes about the Nazis was just an obvious anti-Semite hiding behind his anonymous cloak or bedsheet. Certain other posters just seem to not want to understand why terms like "folk Nazi" are so offensive. The sub-theme of this thread about finding an alternative term with which to demonize those who disagree with you is disheartening to me. One of the posts that is driving me away from the Mudcat Cafe was the one from Lena. She refers to the Holocaust, the most evil event in modern history, as merely the "hebrew tragedy" and asks for tolerance for those who would cheapen its memory. I'm sorry Lena, but there's a subtext to your message that is not very different from that of the overtly anti-Semitic Guest. And Callie, Mel Brooks is now on record as regretting his "Springtime for Hitler," song and theme in "The Producers." "Hogan's Heroes" depicted the Nazis as bumbling fools. They were not. They were highly efficient in their genocide and came much too close to success in their quest for world domination. I think that many Mudcatters have learned much from this thread. However, some of the other posters have not. Im sorry, but they have made it very hard for me to continue here, at least at present. If anyone should wish to communicate with me privately, my email is fatlou@hotmail.com. Sincerely, Lou Melamed aka Groucho |
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12 Sep 00 - 10:54 AM (#295646) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: katlaughing I am very sorry to hear that Lou/Groucho. On the whole, I think you would find that the majority of Mudcatters do not mean to be hurtful and are generally open to new ways of thinking and learning. I will send you a personal message, in case you do not read this. There are some classic threads which I think you might be interested in and which may help you think twice about leaving. Sincerely, katlaughing |
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12 Sep 00 - 11:24 AM (#295668) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: GUEST,John Jeri, I have to agree with what you said about Limbaugh's use of illogical/unfair debating methods. I OFTEN turn the radio off. The song you posted though points out the broad brush with which his philosophical end of the spectrum is painted. Logically, a philosophy that encourages less government intervention is not at the same end of the philosophical spectrum as tyrannists, fascists, nazis etc who are by there very nature pro government (however well or ill-meaning that government may be). Of course I would be pleased if Limbaugh's forum could be handed over to the likes of George Will so that my points of agreement wouldn't be clouded with the personality distaste engendered by Limbaugh. He is often the blowhard he is accused of being, and thus, often the worst messenger for his causes. This forum must be more thoughful and balanced than my first post would imply though, because the two who expressed the most emotional "hurt", seem to be the two philosophical opposites, myself and groucho. He by the thoughtless clumsy use of language and history, and I for being philosophically included in the number whom you seem to think are the true current day nazis (if we only understood history and politics as you understood them). John |
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12 Sep 00 - 11:54 AM (#295690) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: GUEST,Jew To Groucho Marxist: There are many good people on this website who, while not being Jewish, understand why you and I feel the way we do. The fact that they haven't posted to this thread is not an indication of their lack of interest or feeling. Some will read the posts and think there is nothing more they could add because others have already "said" it. Some just haven't had the time to go through all the threads. And, there are those who never go into a thread that is not specifically music-related. I have been a member for a long time and at no other time have I seen any post as overtly anti-semitic as that of "Guest." Even when there was a discussion of "Nazi" music, a couple of years back, I did not have the impression that anyone was wearing a white sheet. I, of all people, understand why you would choose to leave The Mudcat Cafe. I would, however, urge you to stay and communicate with those who are what make up the "good" of the Mudcat. It is so difficult to ignore the "bad," so I wont even make that suggestion. But I would implore you to lurk awhile and see what happens and to enjoy the other threads. Jews worldwide mutter the phrase "We must never forget." To forget would be to erase the memories of those who died and those who survived. To forget would be to open the door even wider for those who teach that it never happened. Jews were not the only victims of the Holocaust ... there were members of the resistance movements all over Europe and every man, woman, and child who lived in a country that was occupied for Hitler's forces.
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12 Sep 00 - 12:13 PM (#295707) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: GUEST,Steve Beisser I agree... I have great friends who are VERY talented musicians that also happen to be Jews... They would not appreciate it if I or anyone used the term 'Nazi' to refer to anyone except the bastards that we know were the real Nazis. I am also a minister of the Gospel and I resent the fact that terms like these have become so commonplace that I was once referred to as a 'Jesus Nazi' because I am a so-called 'fundie' who believes in what the Bible says, word for word. Please, friends, our history has always been striped with the blood and sweat of protest... let's speak out against this awful, bigoted labeling. God bless you all. Steve |
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12 Sep 00 - 12:20 PM (#295713) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: wysiwyg This is the recounting of two events that changed my white-liberal-polyanna life. It is about what is safety. I tell these to say how the past lives in the present, and what I learned about being in the present with someone who still feels the past. The first is the story of a young woman of color I met in a particular community. I was fascinated with her, and I tried so hard to get to know her. There was always a wall she would not see me through. In a session with the leader of that community, who mentioned how hard it was for this young woman to function in such a white group, how isolated she felt-- I said, "Well, it would help if she would look around." The leader jumped all over me quite loudly and also, somehow lovingly, and explained that the burden of getting through, like it or not, would be upon ME, not the young woman. She could step past that wall any time, true. But if I wanted contact, it would be on me to step through first, and properly. She said to me, "It isn't fair, but it's so. If you want to get close enough to her for her to see you at all, if you want her to allow you access to get close enough to invite her past that wall, you will have to take her where she is at and go first." And I learned that whatever I might think someone could do, or should do, to overcome the results of past mistreatment they had experienced personally or had been handed down to them, the reality was that none of the dialog I longed for, and hoped could help them, would ever even begin if I did not step past my own stuff first. The second event was that I chose to attend an Israeli dance troupe's performance in the Chicago area. I wasn't thinking when I bought my ticket, what I was signing on for. Ever hear of Skokie? Nazi marches? The dancers would be, it "just so happens," at the Skokie Jewish Community Center. Made sense to me. But when I arrived, alone, oh my. I sat in this huge auditorium surrounded by Jews, surrounded by Skokie, and all I could think of was the bomb that could be under my seat. And all around me were laughing, friendly, kind, funny people acting as though they had not a care in the world. Are you afraid of needles, or flying, or snakes, or anything unreasonable? It was like that. I could hardly breathe. I didn't know if I could stay. My whole body was demanding flight. I made myself stay because I was unwilling to be less brave than the actual potential targets. They face this every day!!! I thought a lot about Germany, as I waited for the curtain to rise on the performance. I thought about what I would have done. I found The Diary of Anne Frank, suddenly, a whole different story. I was desperate to think of anything that would let me stay put. The curtain rose. Out from the wings of the stage tumbled the troupe. Here I was, fearing death, and here they were, more full of life than anything I had ever seen. Young. Vibrant, free, beautiful, free, free... FREE. It was then that I learned what it means to dance like no one is watching. And I thought, how wrong of me, to sit there feeling that I should be spared a possible attack because I was not Jew and also had not done anything wrong. It was wrong also to think these people around me should be spared, for they too had done nothing wrong. It was the wrong point to look at, at all. The point was, live. Fully. Knowing how awful life can be, live. Live BIG. Live LOUD. Dance in the face of it. Die THAT way. You see, these Jews had not forgotten the past. They had redeemed it. They had gone far beyond "getting over" it. They had gone so far past it that I had never realized how far there is to go, and it was only when they felt safe among themselves that they could show it freely enough for me to glimpse it. That's why we don't forget genocide of any sort. Not because we don't want to repeat it. Of course we don't. Even dogs know not to make the same mistake twice. We humans have a greater opportunity, to lift our whole people up past what has gone before. To take a wrong and make a right that could not have been, otherwise. I have never told this story to a Jew. It seemed too much like, "Some of my best friends are Jewish." But here is the secret. When I look someone in the eyes now, I think that they see me, not the wall I saw before. Because they see me looking at them, expecting that same measure of life that I saw in the dancers. They step past the wall they see, because I have come out from behind mine as much as I can in that moment. I have walked many a mile since, in many a sort of shoes. (It's one of those cliches that you only get if you actually try it, and are paying attention.) And I would risk death gladly for the privilege of walking in more shoes that way, to have the chance of seeing my world more clearly, more fully, more lovingly. Once you wear someone's shoes, loving them is effortlessly different. ~Susan |
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12 Sep 00 - 12:43 PM (#295733) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: Grab It's curious that the US, who suffered the least in WW2 (hence their economic power) are the ones with the greatest hang-ups - is this with the percentage of Jewish immigrants? There was a show in the 80's in Britain called Allo Allo, presumably along the lines of Hogan's Heroes (not having seen HH, I wouldn't know for sure). Basically it was a skit on national stereotypes - the sexy French waitress, the fat bumbling German officer, etc. Where it also scored was its portrayal of the English - 2 thick toffee-nosed pilots and a pair of SOE spies (one female and competent, one an accident-prone guy who can't speak the language properly). No American characters, so presumably it'll never get shown over there. Incidentally, there's the old debating rule that the first person to compare the other side to the Nazis automatically loses. I have to say, I'd not use the phrase myself, not bcos of any hang-ups about insulting Holocaust victims, but bcos the phrase is inherently meaningless - if I want to slate someone's views, I can think of better ways to do it. Oh, and a BTW - the phrase "gun Nazi" isn't entirely incorrect in many cases... Grab. |
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12 Sep 00 - 12:58 PM (#295740) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: wysiwyg Steve, I hope you will join Mudcat. I'd like to exchange PM's with you. ~S~ motormice@hotmail.com |
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12 Sep 00 - 12:58 PM (#295741) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: GUEST,OFFENDED Yeah Grab, you're right. The problem in the U.S. is there are too many Jewish immigrants.
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12 Sep 00 - 01:19 PM (#295753) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: katlaughing Gee, Grab, I didn't realise all of those programs I watch, in the US, on BBC television had to really be Americans acting as Brits; even the BBC newspeople, eh? |
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12 Sep 00 - 01:36 PM (#295769) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: Mike Regenstreif Reading through this thread I see that there have been many thoughtful responses who understand why I raised the issue. I hope that this discussion will have served as a reminder about how casual use of some terms can be very hurtful, even when there was no intention. Unfortunately, I think that there are also a few who missed the point. Groucho's points are well taken. I will be in direct touch with him and hope that he comes back. And like Groucho, I also do not understand the need to find an acceptable term with which to demonize those you disagree with. Mike Regenstreif |
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12 Sep 00 - 02:30 PM (#295821) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: GUEST Hell Jeri, I want to have your baby! Your ability to analyze an issue without ever letting irrational emotion cloud your clearheaded thinking is an all too rare commodity these days. I am a great admirer of your objectivity. How big a step is it from "we have a right to kill people in other countries we don't like" (war) to "we have a right to kill people in our own country we don't like?" Evidently not very big. Wasn't that what happened in Waco, Texas? Surely I'm not the only one who was horrified at the images streaming across the TV screen of an American offensive launched by American troops on American soil against American citizens. |
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12 Sep 00 - 03:12 PM (#295854) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: wysiwyg Most of these issues are addressed better in song than we have done here. See the lyrics at: http://www.jg.org/folk/artists/fredsmall/i.will.stand.fast.lyrics.html ~Susan |
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12 Sep 00 - 04:15 PM (#295892) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: Ebbie Grrrrrrrr... Ebbie |
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12 Sep 00 - 04:28 PM (#295904) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: McGrath of Harlow "Jews were not the only victims of the Holocaust ..." No indeed - in particular there was another attempt at genocide carried out by the Nazis, with Gypsies as the target. And it never really let up. (Maybe even here on the Mudcat in a limited kind of way.
There's a saying among disabled rights activists "label jars not people", and I think in a way it applies in this kind of context as well. "I think A, you think B." That entitles me to say "I think you're wrong". Sticking a label on it - "you're just one of those XXXXs" doesn't help the argument any.
Save the insults for people who need them. This Limbug fella sounds like one maybe - we're spared him over here. But there are equivalents, definitely in the tabloid press. |
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12 Sep 00 - 04:55 PM (#295928) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: GUEST,I deleted my cookie so I could be GUEST By dictating the kind of langauge we should use here, Mike and Groucho-Lou have shown themselves to be the real folk nazis. Too many of us have been too quick to comply with their PC agenda. |
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12 Sep 00 - 05:08 PM (#295938) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: GUEST,Mongo ...sorry, but I'm going to lighten this up one notch with the following 5 ways to tell you're dealing with a Folktator... 5. They drink Black and Tanshirts 4. "Black 47" is tried and sentenced to death... in abstentia 3. Billy Bragg is deemed a heretic, and Jihad is declared 2. Your pitchpipe is stuffed with Fertilizer, and found next to an ashtray stolen from the neighborhood U-Haul and lastly.. 1. Your metronomes ALWAYS run on time. Now, with that, there is really only one way out... A) Educate yourself first, your families second. If you use a word incorrectly, you're an idiot, and hopefully people will help you figure it out. B) Since the dawn of time, people will disagree, let 'em, it's their god/goddess/tphilisophical/reincarnated right. C) Darwinism dictates the strong will survive, Social Darwinism dictates that an idiot will not survive a social life, and all you have to do is ignore 'em, and they'll either rethink their philosaphy, or suffer ostracization. D) Common sense dictates that if I upset someone, I should try to understand why, and either apologize and make a change, or accept B. E) Everyone has a valid point, I just wanted to add mine. Mongo |
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12 Sep 00 - 05:27 PM (#295954) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: BDtheQB Hold on people... "Can't we just all get along?" another phrase from another King "I have a dream.." I am going to compose a song with this thread as a basis I need someone to help with the music as I am not a musician. I will post lyrics and rudimentary music on a free eboard site shortly. Those who wish to help in the project may email me at bdalrymple@email.com and I will give them the URL. In the meantime.. let's not use any ethnic words to describe anything or person that we don't like. It may be acceptable to use television networks.. like she's a Fox or he's an ABC... or did you see that CBS.. Labels belong on Corn flakes.. not people flakes... bd |
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12 Sep 00 - 05:48 PM (#295966) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: IvanB Guest who deleted your cookie, I'm sorry that you feel the level of freedom and trust on Mudcat has dropped to a level that forces you to post anonymously. That said, Mike and Grouch/Lou have dictated NOTHING. All either of them has done is state an opinion: Mike that the term 'nazi' is not one to be used lightly and Groucho that he feels the present atmosphere at MC requires his abstinence from the forum for a time. The truth of the situation is that no one, excepting those that have the power to edit, delete or otherwise censor posts, can dictate anything on Mudcat. And there've been a pretty explicit policy statements to the effect that very little will ever be edited or deleted. My hope is that the content of this thread will make us all a little more reluctant to apply labels to other people. As I stated in an earlier post, a counterargument to someone's view can be much more effective than a negative label and doesn't carry the added baggage of being hurtful. |
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12 Sep 00 - 06:05 PM (#295986) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: GUEST,I deleted my cookie so I could be GUEST I have an idea for a term to replace folk nazi. FOLK RABBI. After all, aren't rabbis always telling people what to do. Just like nazis. |
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12 Sep 00 - 06:10 PM (#295991) Subject: Bigotry? I don't think so. From: Joe Offer I think it's important to understand what we're disagreeing about here. We're talking about whether the term "folk Nazi" is offensive. In the Gypsy (click) thread that McGrath linked to, the question was whether a particular song was offensive. Some people think they are offensive, and some people think they aren't - that's the issue. As far as I can see, there has been no prejudice expressed or intended against Jews in this thread, and there was no prejudice expressed or intended against gypsies in the other thread (excluding, perhaps, a nasty comment or two from a very few idiotic flamers). On the whole, though the people who have participated in these threads are people of good will. They are in sympathy with the oppressed, and they have no prejudice against Jews or Gypsies. They simply disagree on whether a term is offensive. I am quite certain that the person who used the term "Folk Nazi" was thinking of Seinfeld, not about Jews at all. I have to admit that "xxx-nazi" is not in my vocabulary because I think it's pushing things a little farther than I like to, but I'm sure that the people who use it mean no offense. I probably wouldn't sing the gypsy song, either - but I'd certainly like to have seen the lyrics, so I could evaluate the song for myself. I'm sure the person who requested the song meant no offense, either. If the person speaking the words means no offense, perhaps we'd better give that person the benefit of the doubt and not read offense where it is not intended. Let's not go accusing each other of bigotry in these threads - it's just not fair to level a charge of bigotry where there is none intended. This is simply a disagreement about whether something is offensive. -Joe Offer- |
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12 Sep 00 - 06:20 PM (#296006) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: GUEST,RichP60 I think of a 7ft. tall man with an intimadating attitude dressed as a leperchaun and carrying a spiked, metel accoustic guitar when I hear that word. Adolph Hitler did like the song "Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Wolf" and he would listen to it over and over again. His other folkish tastes most likely ran similar. |
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12 Sep 00 - 06:27 PM (#296009) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: Thomas the Rhymer Do you live in peaceful thoughts While thousands sleep in jail cell cots Do you eat prosperity'd From the hands of nazi greed? The acting force in C.I.A., 'arranging' U.S. plots that pay Was born of S.S. personel The ravagers of earthly hell And sitting in our comfy chairs So distant from the hungry scares We sup on spoils unfairly won, And worser still, we think we're fun. And fun is it?... arguably To curse electrons; you or me... As if in freedom's finest hour Our love is wasted use of power So if you say (I think you might) That you're for music; proud to fight, Freedom is as freedom does, Don't criticize, love, because...
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12 Sep 00 - 08:42 PM (#296091) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: McGrath of Harlow My link to the Gypsy song thread wasn't because I think there's a lot of conscious or intentional bigotry around against Gypsies on the Mudcat. It was because itb demonstrated the way in wich the Nazi genocide against Gypsies hasn't entered into our consciousness in the way that the genocide against the Jews has.
That means that it's still possible for decent people to collude in this type of racism, and not recognise it. There was a time when the same kind of thing was true of anti-Semitism. Largely because the Jewish genocide has entered into our awareness, that is no longer the case with anti-Semitism (except of course for the sinister anti-Arab version which is so prevalent).
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12 Sep 00 - 08:56 PM (#296098) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: Mike Regenstreif Joe, Unfortunately, I think that bigotry has reared its ugly head in several of the posts to this thread. The post immediately before your's from "Guest, I deleted my cookie so I could be GUEST," equating rabbis and Nazis was a nasty piece of work. I don't know if Grab intended his post to be bigoted, but, perhaps unfortunately, it did give me that impression. Mike Regenstreif |
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12 Sep 00 - 10:04 PM (#296127) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: Lonesome EJ Interesting comments all the way down the thread. Some final thoughts... A)I still find the term absurd.Must be the juxtaposition of the terms "folk" and "Nazi" B)I have mixed feelings about setting aside the term "Nazi" for one reference: that of conjuring up the evil and horror of Hitler's regime.To grant a term that kind of power is to sanctify it,even if in a negative manner.I think Lenny Bruce was on to something when he said that the more we hide and stigmatize a word,the more power we endow it with. C)I believe that Jerry Seinfeld can call someone a "soup Nazi" and not be guilty of forgetting the great evil of Hitler,or of betraying his Jewish heritage.It is,in part,the contrast between the Soup Nazi's harmless behavior and the deadly nature of the actual Nazis that made the term funny. D)I think that the term,ludicrous as it is in my view,is a harsh one to use in actual fact,especially alluding to anyone in this forum,and I would not use it myself.I respect the opinions of those who do feel it is innappropriate,and I understand their point of view. Finally...many of us had fathers,friends and relatives who suffered in the War,and our memories of Hitler and the Nazis are still fresh.As new generations (mbo) come along,the immediacy of the memory will dim.The reactions to terms like "Hitler" and "Nazi" will not be as immediate.And maybe that is not such a bad thing.What is important for them to remember is the truth of what happened,and I think,if Mbo is an example,that they will be wise enough to remember the lessons. |
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12 Sep 00 - 11:38 PM (#296184) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: Lena Groucho Marxist.First of all,there couldn't be any anti-semitic subtext in my message.the though is quite laughable;it would mean to deny the jew bits in my roots,to deny the great-grandfather I'm so proud of who had a fair bit of problems in being in Germany during the war.it would mean to deny the fact that the majority of my friends are jew,it would mean to forget that i was brought in an anti-intolerance family environment and I'm not offended about your label given that you don't know me personally...but really,you made a glamorous mistake.What I was telling is:beware of any intolerance.Because what was perpetrated in that occasion wasn't some evil power taking possession of a crowd.It was what is in human nature.Those people,when they did what they did,tought to be right.they thought they were defending theirselves from some other 'evil' human beings.A trigger for intolerance is exactly this one of demonizing other people.So,of course,we all know that any crime against human beings is...well,there are not enough words in our language to express how terrible it is(there is music,thank god...and yesterday I saw and amazing orchestra piece about victims in Vietnam War that said exactly what i'm thinking now),but it's not coming form outside us.It's a mechanism we can fall in if brainwashed and unaware.Intolerance is an old weapon we used thousands of years ago to defend ourselves.It's still there,and we must overcome it.If we don't,we are all liable to fall in the trick.And if i was being provocative,ok.And yes,fascist is the italian correspondent of nazi and in my over-communist background I heard it said thousands of times.But it's the same stuff:aggressive,devastating intollerance.But labels help us going:'ok,i'm not a fascist,so i'm right.'So I don't have to whatch out for the intollerance that may be there,inside my nature.But intolerance is there,and we must beware of it,and trace it,and overcome it,and never stop thinking,and never severe ourselves from others.Because it's easy to feel connected with victims of these crimes,and feel sorry,and feel outraged,and feel angry at others...what's less easy,and more humiliating,is to put ourselves in the murderer's mind,recognize the pattern and say:there!!It's there that he screwed up and the mechanism started,and I must never fall in it.If I'm not wrong,a long time ago some Konrad Lorenz man got flamed when he argued that aggressivity was a typical human trait and blah blah.What he was doing was giving us a chance to be aware of the trigger we had in our nature,and overcoming it. And,Groucho Marxist,you had my favourite cookie at the Mudcat and I'd miss it. |
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12 Sep 00 - 11:48 PM (#296196) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: GUEST,marty D Mike R. I agree. Why must people always find a TERM that lumps others with probably quite disparate views into one 'group'? To call someone a folk Nazi when nobody can even agree on what 'folk' is, is ridiculous. The Producers was a very funny film though. Satire can be a powerful weapon. M |
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13 Sep 00 - 01:43 AM (#296256) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: DougR Refering to anyone as "anything" Nazi, is IMO insulting and should not be done. Note that I said, IMO. This explanatory statement is missing from many messages posted on this Thread (IMO). I take offense at Banjo Johnny's statement about Republicans. I don't question his right to state his belief, and since the majority of those folks posting to this thread probably agree with him, I'm probably the only one who does feel offended, but I can't, in good concience, allow him to make such a statement unchallenged. It's as offensive to me, as if he had called me an American Nazi. And how in the heck did Rush Limbaugh get into this conversation anyway? Yes, he refers to those in the feminist movement as feminazis or something to that effect, but in America, he has a right to do that. It is a guaranteed right. Those who disagree have the same right to disagree with him. I'm not a regular listener of the Limbaugh show, but I have heard several. The descriptions of his broadcast that I have read on this thread from folks who have heard him a few times don't jibe with the broadcasts I have heard. He is an entertainer! He holds no political office, cannot influence political policy, can do nothing other than broadcast his beliefs. Should he have a right to do that? Damn right! Just as much right as any Liberal commentator would have to spout his/her opinions on the airwaves. The puzzeling thing to me is, why isn't there a Liberal counterpart to Limbaug? Supposedly, Limbaugh has the largest radio audience of any talk radio show in radioland. If Liberalism is as popular as its proponents believe it to be, why isn't there an audience "out there" large enough to sustain such a radio show? Is it because we are a nation of naziradiolisteners? There is a lot of Liberal talent to choose from. Mario Cuomo, Hillery Clinton (once she is no longer running for office), Bill Clinton, once his is out of office, maybe even Al Gore! So the minority wing of the Mudcat is heard from. Have at me, my friends! :>) DougR |
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13 Sep 00 - 02:06 AM (#296265) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: Ebbie I guess the part of all this that I don't understand is why we couldn't respond with something to the effect that "I'm not Jewish but it is a misery to me to know that nations and individuals do that kind of thing to each other so I can understand that you must feel much more than that. I'm sorry to have added to your pain. Thanks for making me aware of it." In other words, why do we feel it necessary to try to defend an, at the least, unfortunate phrase? Surely we can do without the phrase? Ebbie |
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13 Sep 00 - 02:19 AM (#296267) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: Lonesome EJ Doug,your opinion (as usual) is a very logical one. I alluded to Rush Limbaugh's use of the femi-nazi term saying that it's a common method of propaganda to use a term against your enemies that is likely to be used against you. It's also a common tactic in debate and advertising. Those on the Right are generally the most vulnerable to the Fascist or Nazi appellation,as those on the left are often labeled Communist or Socialist.Therefore it is very crafty of Limbaugh to hijack the nazi term.I don't think Rush is a Nazi,nor do I think he's a Fascist. I would put him just a hair to the left of Reactionary.He makes a lot of common-sense statements interspersed with some very flakey observations (Tourette's Syndrome is a politically correct disease),enjoys noting an obvious political trend,predicting its outcome,and then patting himself on the back for it,and has a remarkable propensity for personal vendetta against those he despises politically,while remaining blind to any error by those he supports.Other than that,he's great. Why are there no Liberal counterparts to Limbaugh?Mainly because we Democrats can rarely agree long enough or on a wide enough collection of issues to say "ditto."We are a motley crew indeed.In fact,you Republicans should be ashamed if you let a disreputable bunch like us back in the WhiteHouse for another four years.I always thought the best thing the Democratic Party could do would be to get some Republicans to run it.Ever been to a Democratic Convention?Sorry,of course you haven't. But sheesh,what a disorganized mess.Who was it said "I am currently not a member of any organized political party - I'm a Democrat"...he had it right. |
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13 Sep 00 - 03:16 AM (#296279) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: Thomas the Rhymer Very interesting thread. Passionate,... indeed! I will be short. I saw a bumpersticker the other day that said "If you don't know Rush Limbaugh, You don't know sh*t". Now I have to tell you, I laughed then, as I am laughing now. His popularity is ample testimony for the distracted state of the contemporary American mind. Can you imagine Rush having a straight ahead debate with Ralph Nader one on one? HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA ttr |
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13 Sep 00 - 08:37 AM (#296346) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: GeorgeH Mike R: Thanks for all the good sense, as ever . . As for Grab - he said he wouldn't use "Nazi" as an epithet ('cause he could always do better) - then proceeded TO use it in his last line. So he's either a bird of little brain or a deliberate troll (my money's on the latter). And - LonesomeEJ - you miss the point on "reserving" words; Nazi DOES refer to Hitler's hoardes . . what we're saying is we shouldn't loose sight of that and allow its meaning to be diluted. Also - like others here - I take it as self-evident that any view I express, unless I cite evidence to support it, is seen by everyone as "IMO". G. |
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13 Sep 00 - 09:50 AM (#296380) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: CamiSu I caught my son throwing rocks into the road the other day. No cars were coming, and he wasn't throwing hard enough to hit the chickens on the other side. BUT if two cars came along one of his stones could be picked up by the first and slung so as to hit the second's windshield. So, too, our words can hit targets we don't mean to or even know about. Mike alerted us to this possibility. Groucho is not dictating what we say, he is simply saying "ouch" and it is up to all of us to THINK about what we say, and decide if we're going to pitch those stones into the road or not. Yes, some people take offense way too easily. And sometimes we make jokes to try to deal with the horror of something. The trouble there is that if that is all we do then we don't actually deal with the problem. We absolutely have to have a sense of humor to survive in this world. But humor does not mean insensitivity. Consider 'Fiddler on the Roof', there is plenty of humor, and plenty to cause one to think and to cry, but nothing that makes the watcher feel denigrated. Praise, I truly appreciated your story. I think that we all need to learn to feel and express that kind of JOY and LIFE as a matter of course. I sort of think that is what God wants us to do. I do hope Groucho won't go away. This forum is a wonderful opportunity to learn, and whenever even one of us leaves many opportunities tolearn AND teach are lost... Cami Su |
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13 Sep 00 - 10:11 AM (#296385) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: Jeri GUEST at dinner table with friends: Friend "GUEST, Please pass the butter." GUEST: "DON'T TELL ME WHAT TO DO, YOU %#*& - YOU'RE NOT MY MOTHER." (Sorry - either that post by the cookie-tossing guest was a poor excuse for a troll, a severe knee-jerk response to perceived authority, or completely clueless...possibly all three. In any case, it was funny.) It seems most people here either understand or are trying to understand. There will always be those who think they must always excercise their rights to do or say something, despite knowing they'll hurt people. They think they have enough reason to do this. They have a right to ignore people's feelings, call people names, and be generally mean. I have a right to think they're losers. Believe me, I'll exercise THAT right. Lena, your post was very eloquent. "We have met the enemy, and they are us." (Who said that? Walt Kelly?) No one wants to believe they're capable of the sort of things the supporters of the Nazis condoned and the Nazis themselves did. No one wants to look in a mirror and see the sort of person who's capable of treating their fellow humans like meat. Some look into mirrors, and keep a watchful eye for signs of the enemy. Some condemn all mirrors as evil. |
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13 Sep 00 - 11:26 AM (#296425) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: GUEST,John Bauman Sorry to beat a dead horse but Fascism, Socialism, and Communism are all political/economic philosophies that involve state-owned means of production. How does that ever put conservatism on the same end of the spectrum as fascism? John |
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13 Sep 00 - 12:35 PM (#296475) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: Lonesome EJ John,I visualize the political spectrum as a line extending left to right through Communist,Socialist,Radical,Liberal,Democrat,Moderate,Republican,Conservative,Reactionary,Fascist,Nazi.This is not a political model invented by me,but has been in use for years in political science.For all intents and purposes,individual freedom evaporates at both ends (extreme right and left),and becomes totalitarianism. |
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13 Sep 00 - 01:07 PM (#296502) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: DougR Lonesome EJ: Good reply. DougR |
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13 Sep 00 - 01:43 PM (#296528) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: mousethief Since when does fascism involve state-owned means of support? You need to check your history. Private firms made a lot of money under Hitler. Hitler did NOT nationalize industry. Every opinion I express always has "IMO" implicitly tacked on. This is true of everybody. People who don't realize this irk me. People who set out to purposely offend and upset others are jerks and knee-biters. End of story. On Limbaugh: I think it's interesting that whenever someone calls somebody on their use of language, or their hatemongering, the defense is always "I have freedom of speech!" No schmidt, sherlock. Now use it responsibly. We also have the freedom of speech to say, "you're lying" or "you're an a##hole for being nasty and mean-spirited." And we will. And do. Liberals don't have shows like Limbaugh's exactly BECAUSE they are in the majority. Limbaugh generates his audience by playing on their "oh poor me" victim-status as a picked-upon minority. It's that White Guy Rage thing. Me, I'm just thankful I'm so perfect. (grin) |
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13 Sep 00 - 01:50 PM (#296534) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: GUEST,John Bauman Thanks for the answer LonesomeEJ. That's the "spectrum" I've always heard referred to. I'm just not sure I can see it as anything more than a rhetorical sledgehammer used to tie one's opponent to a villain and then beat him over the head. If I can call a liberal a communist, or he can call me a fascist, the rest of the arguement need not be that strong :=). It quite literally falls apart in two ways; Objectively, fascism is practically speaking, merely a version of communism, thereby, I suppose, making the "spectrum" more akin to Toqueville's cycle than a straight line. Libertarianism cannot be fit into the spectrum. John
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13 Sep 00 - 01:53 PM (#296536) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: GUEST,Thread Detective I read all the Lena and Groucho Marxist threads and I think they are both fakes! We have been had again mudcatters! |
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13 Sep 00 - 02:22 PM (#296550) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: Lonesome EJ John,obviously it's a fairly gross over-simplification of the spectrum of political position,but is useful for a basic understanding. It was evolved,I believe,in the Thirties,when both fascism and communism were at their peaks.The distinction between fascism,as totalitarian rule which observed and emphasized private property and private business rights (as mousethief indicated),and communism,as "dictatorship of the proletariat",where those rights were suppressed,was more clearly distinguished. Hitler,in fact,saw himself as a champion of capitalism and Communism as the world's greatest evil. Accepting the scale at face value,one can accuse a political opponent of socialism,as Limbaugh frequently does,if he is interested in a national health care system,even though the balance of his views may fall to moderate or even right-leaning philosophy.The farther towards each end of the spectrum a person falls,the more he will paint his opponent as an extremist,in my experience. |
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13 Sep 00 - 02:45 PM (#296562) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: Jim the Bart As so often happens, words are being thrown around rather loosely in this thread. IMNSHO, not having clear definitions or references on which to base your comments reduces the value of the discussion and raises the possibility of offending individuals without enlightening the issues at hand. And there are some important issues being explored here. On the primary issue - the acceptability of the term "folk-nazi" - let me weigh in on the "nay" side. I know Seinfeld used "nazi" as a suffix for humorous purposes, but that doesn't make it funny or diminish the power of the word. Nazi, refers specifically to members of the third reich and supporters of Adolf Hitler's social ideas. Considering the recent rise of Neo-Nazi movements and the renewed interest in this ideology, I think underestimating it's impact, through this kind of use, is a bit premature. "Nazi" is still a dangerous, hurtful and incendiary term. Although we don't all agree on the meaning of the words "folk music", or the level of folk purity that we should aspire to or try to maintain, we have to agree to disagree with a degree of civility. I, personally, think calling someone a "nazi" crosses the line. On one level, the term "nazi" represents the willingness to commit genocide in support of a perceived need to enforce purity in thought. Is this what we're all about here? I don't think so. And I know that that was not the spirit in which it has come to be used in our culture (and was used in this forum). But facile labeling reduces the level of our dialogue. It is "ad-speak" that serves the sound-bite mentality. We don't need it here. And that is just my opinion. |
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13 Sep 00 - 03:37 PM (#296594) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: DougR Well, mousethief, I guess I'm one of those irksome people. I don't agree that "everbody" assumes when a person makes a statement (unless it is based on proveable fact) that he/she is only expressing an opinion. And another thing, I wouldn't presume to speak for everybody. But then, I'm not perfect. :>) DougR |
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13 Sep 00 - 04:03 PM (#296608) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: McGrath of Harlow Maybe this is thread drift, but it's started already. Lining up political philosophies along a one-dimensional spectrum as Lonesome EJ quotes it seems to distort the way in which they relate to each other and differ from each other.
To me it makes more sense to see them as in two dimensions. There's a left to right dimension based around issues like economic structures, common ownership, private property, equality, stuff like that. And at right angles to it there's a dimension about authority and freedom.
That gets you away from absurdities such as people saying "Hitler was a vegetarian, who disapproved of private citizens having guns, so vegetarians who in favour of gun control are like Nazis."
Looked at that way it's fairly clear that Nazism is more or less in the middle of the left/right dimension, but way off the chart on authoritarianism.
Actually to really cover the territory you'd ned at least one more dimension for things like green issues, for example.
And you find folk music in all the nooks and crannies of the multiverse, including some really unpleasant ones. I think it's better to save the term "folk nazis" for the real nazis around who are into folk music of some kind. And they really do exist. Not too many on the Mudcat so far, and pray God it stays that way. But at times I get the feeling they are out there in the dark circling and ready to pick off stragglers. |
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13 Sep 00 - 05:22 PM (#296660) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: Callie Guest Detective: get a life. |
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13 Sep 00 - 05:35 PM (#296673) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: Greg F. I find it difficult to credit that anyone could consider the bigoted, misogynist, sophomoric ranting of a spoiled frat-boy upon subjects he clearly knows nothing about to be a form of "entertainment"-- Rush's garbage-spewing is much darker and more dangerous than that, particularly if it encourages people to behave as he does. Though, I suppose, lynching, too, is a form of "entertainment". At least Rush's motives are obvious- he's a media whore who will say anything for money. The motives of the 'Rush-apologists' are less clear. |
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13 Sep 00 - 05:39 PM (#296675) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: Thomas the Rhymer Incediary responces. I think that Websters would note that writers (sometimes good ones), often 'spice' up their work with words that inflame and hook emotions. It is everywhere, and tall are the tales we tell. The terms seem to represent a board and cynical approach to a relatively uneventful social standard of interaction. As a melodramatic animal, we seem to need anxiety, and if none is suplied by nature, we more or less go out of our way to invoke it. Silly folk... |
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13 Sep 00 - 05:41 PM (#296676) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: mousethief DougR: But when somebody says, "people ought not to do X" what could they possibly be doing except expressing an opinion? Unless you know of some source of objective, universally-agreed-upon "oughts"? If on the other hand someone says, "my religion says people ought not to do X" or "Time Magazine had an article recently that said when people do X, Y happens" then they are obviously passing along a fact (or falsehood) about something, which one could conceivably go and check out against the source. (Unless their religion is so small there's no way of figuring out what it officially believes, of course.) If someone says, "In 1520, Joe X killed Bob Y" then you can go and check it out. It's a matter of historical fact. But "oughts" are not a matter of historical fact, and there is no place we can go (that we all agree upon) to check out what one ought and what one ought not. Thus it seems obvious to me (call me a weirdo) that when someone posts something in the form of "Doing X is wrong" that they are posting their opinion, and adding "IMO" is redundant (if harmless). That said, people who say "People ought not to do X" but really MEAN to say, "according to the Bible/Koran/Bhagavat Gita/Rede/Whatever, people ought not to do X" should probably be kind enough to spell it out for us. But of course they don't, so maybe that's your point? I'm willing to be enlightened. :) |
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13 Sep 00 - 06:28 PM (#296721) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: DougR Mousethief: you lost me somewhere among the Xs and the Os. I really like your website! GregF: You're a pretty tough guy! :>) DougR |
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13 Sep 00 - 06:32 PM (#296727) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: GUEST,Mongo Damn, all you people making too much sense around here. I'm just miffed nobody got pissed off at "Black and Tanshirts"... sheesh, tough crowd... :) |
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13 Sep 00 - 06:32 PM (#296728) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: mousethief I'm sorry. I have a degree in Philosophy (well, two actually) and every now and then that part of my brain leaps up from its long slumber, puts a choke hold on the reality sector, and takes over the fingers. This is why my fingers are far safer on a fretboard than on a keyboard. Or rather the people around me are far safer when my fingers -- AAAK! It's doing it again! Then again I've written some fun songs in the philosophical vein, including "Existential Sheep" and "Let's Get Existential" which maybe I'll torture y'all with at a HearMe. If I can fix that sound card on my blasted computer.
Soundless in Seattle, |
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13 Sep 00 - 08:31 PM (#296798) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: wysiwyg Mongo, I hope you will stick around this place. ~S~ |
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13 Sep 00 - 08:41 PM (#296804) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: GUEST,Suzette Callie, maybe you and Lena should talk to Fedele about fakery. |
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13 Sep 00 - 09:07 PM (#296822) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: Greg F. Just call 'em as I see 'em, Doug! ;-) Best, Greg |
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13 Sep 00 - 09:12 PM (#296826) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: bbelle I have followed this thread for three days and have been reduced to tears several times. I don't care who is who or who is disguising as whom because the words have been laid down. Just for the record, I am a Jew and I am real. I only have to look into the eyes of my step-grandmother to see the horror and fear in her eyes when she lapses into Polish and starts talking about the "nazis." She is a very brave woman, who was part of the Polish resistance. She was pregnant with my stepmother and every night she worked tirelessly leading Jews out of Poland to safety. She was captured and spent six years in the camps and gave birth to my stepmother in the camps. You, who think that the word "nazi" should no longer have an impact, should walk in her shoes, and relive the horrors she endured. IN ORDER THAT JEWS WOULD REACH SAFETY. She relives that horror every day of her life. She is 91 years old and will die reliving those horrors. So, before you use terms that signify a holocaust, wherever, stop and think, those of you who have the ability. And to those of you who do not have that ability, do not waste your energy directing anti-semitic rhetoric or flaming white sheets at me. You will not exist in my eyes.
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13 Sep 00 - 09:47 PM (#296846) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: bflat Moonchild/Jenny What an incredible story of personal courage. I thank you for offering this heartfelt example and I agree with yourbflat own sentiment. Warm regards to your step-grandmother.
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13 Sep 00 - 09:57 PM (#296852) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: GUEST,John Bauman Greg F, In what way(s) have you found R Limbaugh to be bigotted? How have you found him to be misogynist? To which fraternity did he pledge? Bartholemew, Very nice post. I agree with the initial premise of this post. What I've tried so poorly to convey, and the reason I felt the pull to respond to the thread, is that I have found myself like GUEST Steve Beisser(sp) before me, accused falsely of an extreme position. It seems as though the false accusation/use of the word N*** cannot be proven/stated and left alone without someone then advancing the notion that the things I believe in ARE n***-like. I know I should not be so thin skinned. You folks are a great, eye-opening, good-humoured bunch and I've enjoyed my visits to your forum very much. Thanks for allowing me to hang out with you. Cheers! John |
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13 Sep 00 - 10:19 PM (#296862) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: Mike Regenstreif Moonchild, Thank you so much for your post. One of the reasons that I so object to the cheapening of the word "Nazi" is that it cheapens the suffering and the heroic bravery of people like your step-grandmother. Mike Regenstreif
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13 Sep 00 - 10:31 PM (#296867) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: CamiSu Oh Jenny, You and your step-grandmother were just who I was thinking of when I made my comment about stones in the road. The words we put out here, and ESPECIALLY here where we don't know who is there to hear, can and usually will HURT someone. And these words in particular will have the power to hurt unto the seventh generation. And if we forget, those who continue to hold these abhorrent ideas are out there, just waiting, to remind us again. When they came for the Jews, I said nothing, because I wasn't a Jew. When they came for the Gypsies, I said nothing, because I wasn't a Gypsy. When they came for the homosexuals, I said nothing, because I wasn't a Homosexual. When they came for the Christians, I said nothing, because I wasn't a Christian. When they came for me, there was no one left to speak. I know this isn't exactly the quote, but it gets the idea across. Right now in Vermont they are coming for the homosexuals, or trying to. Jenny, your step grandmother is like so many who were ordinary people who became heroes because it had to be done. God bless her and all like her and may we do the same when we have to. Cami Su p.s. My mom's husband (sorry, he's too young to be my stepdad, but he's still the best thing that ever happened to Mom) loved it when my youngest gave me a menorah he made for Christmas! |
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13 Sep 00 - 11:30 PM (#296896) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: katlaughing With the proliferation of neo-nazism, particularly on the Web, "nazi" is just too synonymous with the worst kinds of violence and hatred to be used in any way as humour or a designation of someone who doesn't agree with one concerning folk music or most other things. I had to turn it off, because it sickened me so, but last night MSNBC had a program called "Web of Hate." It went into specific cases of people who've tapped into the white supremacist movements which are on the Internet. One young man, who grew up privileged, had had a Jewish and, then, African American roommate in college, thenconnected with the white supremacists and went on a beserk killing spree in Illinois and Indiana last year, killing 2, a Jew and and African American, and wounding many others, before he killed himself. Those people have murdered and preached hatred of Jews, homosexuals and every other minority. They revel in calling themselves neo-nazis. So, it is not just about something that happened 50 years ago, although that should be enough; it is also about what is happening right now. Why on earth would any of us want to give them credence by adopting that term to refer to any of the rest of us, unless, of course, as someone noted, we are talking about real nazis and the folk music they are into? Mike, thanks, again, for starting this discussion. I have friends who are Holocaust survivors and it would never be right to cheapen what they've gone through by casual use of such a word. Thanks, Jenny, for telling us about your stepmom and stepgrandma. kathopingGrouchowillcomeback |
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14 Sep 00 - 02:05 AM (#296961) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: Lena Thread detective;fake?!I was quite true and faithful to my usual predictable 'let's-apply-anthropology-to-everuthing form-history-to-toilet-paper'line.And besides,quite funny that someone bothers reading my postings so carefully. |
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14 Sep 00 - 02:31 AM (#296973) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: Lena I forgot who that posting was from,but:there is no need to go as far as Abyssinia to track italian racisim.Personally,I just had to step out of my doorstep in my native town.African people are caught in the night and beaten from neo-fascist groups,chinese people have fights with shopkeepers in the streets,southern accent is something to be ashamed of(quite ridicoulous,given that southern Italy has such an amazing cultural-human heritage....and I'm glad I had a chance to get in touch with it,despite the racist shit my central Italy city is filled of),ALL OF THIS DESPITE the fact that all children are educated to abhor the Holocaust.And of course it's fair that they are taught to know that that is the worst possible crime(there is an amazing poem fron an italian/jewish writer,which describes people in a concentration camp,repeating:is this a man?Is this a woman?!Well,meditate that this has happened,and tell to everyone,think about it,or may your children turn away from you,may you...I don't remember the various curses,but if any italian Mudcatter here can help me finding the words of Levi's"Se questo e' un uomo",ve ne sarei ben grata),but the children are not able to confront theirselves with the thing:they think is a thing from the past.they think it's horrible,but they don't connect to the horrible things they say to people they don't tolerate.They may cry reading Anna Frank's diary but they'll tell to their coloured schoolmate"you're black because you fell in the shit"(as they used to say to a kid I knew years ago...Now he's grown up and he's a stunning beautiful young man,and none would dare saying that again...) without feeling wrong about it.That's what I was meaning in my first post.There is a danger that is called intolerance in it's in us everyday,and all we can do against it is to learn from past horrors,not to relegate,isolate those horrors to merely historical/personal memory.It scares me to think'it could have happened to me'when I think about jews in a concentration camp...but it scares me beyond any limit the fact that,if I was born german,raised in aa average family,brainwashed from Hitler...well,I could have even ended on the other side,like thousands of many did in that crowd madness.Because they were human beings as well,and they thought they were right.Now,if I put things this way I can 1)despise myself as a human being because I'm accountable to go against another human being; 2)or I can learn from it,and never stop watching out from intolerance inside myself.End of the speech. |
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14 Sep 00 - 04:06 AM (#297012) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: Lena Joe found me the lyrics I mentioned
Se questo è un uomo
Voi che vivete sicuri
[Primo Levi, da Se questo è un uomo] |
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14 Sep 00 - 04:32 AM (#297016) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: Thomas the Rhymer I have thought long and hard on this one.
I'm not sure that the issue is hatred itself. But I can't decipher the the meaning of hatred from the meaning of murder. There it is, the word "murder". If someone comes into a blood feud, what does reason do for the victims/prepetrators? Murder is absolutely intollerable under any circumstance. PERIOD. Brainwashed people who kill... are still murderers. Belfast. Blood feuds. South Africa. Bosnia. Hitler's Nazi MURDERing machine.
Fear. Fear of losing a job, of starving. Fear of losing your own family, and watching them starve, and feeling responsible for it. Does anyone remember what the powers of the world did to Germany after the first world war? The war that many, many thousands of men died ON THE WAY TO! We now call it the flu. More American men died GOING to WW1 than died IN BATTLE. After the war, Germans suffered vile poverty. Arian, Jewish, Gypsy alike. Poverty like none of us has ever known in our lives. Survival.
The notion of "survival of the fittest" is fabricated nonsence. It was invented in order to justify status quo inequalities. It has been used ever since to salve the consciences of the meanest, and to pacify the "kinder gentler" peoples of the world. If we decide to live like dogs, then it will be our lot. But human beings were never meant to live with such a maxim, we are capable of intense conscious love, and indeed are responsible to higher powers.
People still walk this earth who were witnesses to systematic state sanctioned premeditated murder. Mass murder. Millions of people just like you and me. Families. Extended families. People had to lie to authorities, sneak, steal, and stuff emotions... to stay alive. Authorities came to take fathers, mothers and children... at gunpoint, to be murdered. The whole social interaction of that time was one of fear piled on fear piled on still more fear. Hunters and hunted. No controls to turn off. Systematic murder.
And why? Who could answer then, or now. The breakdown of society was complete, and morality had no place in the activities of nazi zealots. Fearing humiliation most of all, Blame. Racial hatred. The renouncing of Intelligence.
My point. The four horsemen of the appocolypse still ride. We are hanging from the tinniest of threads here on our little globe. Sustaining ourselves from the thinnest layer of topsoil and reason. If we do not pay strict attention to the fragile nature of human democracy, and human peace, the past is inevitable. Brainwashing is happening now. Everyday. When we bicker and fight over news stories, we forget that the truth is hidden by false pride. Bigotry is misinformed.
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14 Sep 00 - 05:56 AM (#297025) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: Crazy Eddie Lonesome EJ, you say <<,I visualize the political spectrum as a line extending left to right through Communist,Socialist,Radical,Liberal,Democrat,Moderate,Republican,Conservative,Reactionary,Fascist,Nazi.>>
So what do you call an Australian, who thinks that Australia should have its own head of state, rather than the British Monarch,(= republican), that Australia should have a democratically elected government (=democrat)and who would vote for a government with socialist policies ( = socialist)?
Or indeed the stated position of Sinn feinn, which is in favour of a socialist united Ireland (= republican socialism) Your model above may work if the words "Democrat" & "Republican" are shorn of there original meaning, and used only as names for U.S. political parties, but it is just a bit confusing for people outside the U.S. Regards, Eddie |
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14 Sep 00 - 06:31 AM (#297033) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: GeorgeH Moonchild: thanks for that account . . poweful, and a reminder of why it's worth arguing over this sort of thing. Some while ago I posted Andy Cronshaw's only published song - "A smiling shore" - it's worth checking out, in this context. G. |
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14 Sep 00 - 07:47 AM (#297058) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: GUEST,Greg F.(not at home) "In what way(s) have you found R Limbaugh to be bigotted? How have you found him to be misogynist?" John, if you find it necessary to pose these questions and they are not an attempt at humor on your part, there's really no point in my responding. Best, Greg |
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14 Sep 00 - 08:32 AM (#297069) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: GUEST,John Bauman Greg F, If you were to assume me to be open-minded enough to learn or change my mind (or have valid reasons for believing your assertions to be wrong) you might have done the polite thing and answered my not impolite question. The questions I asked were not inflamatory. The charge of bigotry is. Sincerely, John |
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14 Sep 00 - 09:16 AM (#297099) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: GUEST,Greg F.(not at home) John-
No offense intended. Don't want to take up too much space with this here, but I'm not about to waste my time to go listen to Rush's current spew so I can take notes & provide you with specifics- I've better things to do & don't know it would change minds if I could cite chapter and verse. Best, Greg |
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14 Sep 00 - 01:37 PM (#297265) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: katlaughing Thomas the Rhymer, good posting. You said, Authorities came to take fathers, mothers and children... at gunpoint, to be murdered. The whole social interaction of that time was one of fear piled on fear piled on still more fear. Hunters and hunted. No controls to turn off. Systematic murder. While your posting is in the past tense, because of the history you referred to, I would remind everyone that that is exactly what is happening in Afghanistan right now and still the world isn't doing much to stop it. I just received an update from RAWA, Revolutionary Association of Women of Afghanistan, which tells of increased suicides of women because of their inability to cope with the horrid atrocities they suffer. Thank you, kat
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14 Sep 00 - 01:58 PM (#297280) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: DougR Eddie, I think you're crazy! (Just kidding of course but couldn't resist). Of course you are right. Those of us in the U. S. should keep in mind that Mudcatters live in many countries all over the world with many different political systems. It must be confusing at times when we (in the U.S.) refer to our political parties or Conservatives and Liberals in our posts. Can't offer a solution to the problem though, unless we were to specify our home country when we are discussing such subjects. DougR |
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14 Sep 00 - 02:37 PM (#297323) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: wysiwyg Some of you have put forth so much effort to get through to one another, but have not yet quite done so... I hope you will keep reaching for one another. Please, keep trying. It will have been worth it. ~Susan~ |
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15 Sep 00 - 01:13 AM (#297853) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: CamiSu Not just Afghanistan. Rwanda, Somalia, Indonesia, East Timor. Not only does it not stop, it barely slows down... And most of us sit in our safe and comfortable homes barely able to understand the horrors. I certainly know MY understanding is intellectual and sympathetic, not based on experience. But that doesn't mean we can't work for peace and understanding where we are. |
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16 Feb 05 - 12:06 PM (#1411905) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: Jim Tailor Well, since some folks can't raise the level of their discussion past the "nazi" accusation, I thought it might be interesting to resurrect this'n. |
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17 Feb 05 - 05:06 AM (#1412832) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: Big Al Whittle Someone said Mel brooks had denounced Springtime for Hitler in The Producers. I wonder if this is still the case now that The Producers is the hottest ticket in London. There wouldn't actually be all that much to laugh about if every joke were to be examined rigorously for a good taste content. I think its because we all feel so strongly about folk music that we fight our corner a bit too ruthlessly occasionally and reach for the nastiest phrase we can to pigeonhole our detractors and diminishers. God, or whoever forgive us all for our bouts of nastiness, testiness and middle aged narrowing of the mind. Amen Big Al |
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17 Feb 05 - 09:25 AM (#1412923) Subject: RE: The term 'folk Nazi' From: GUEST I have just read all through this thread, most of which is from 5 years ago and some fascinating stuff there is too. Several people have thanked the original poster for raising the issue as it is important that we never forget just what the nazis did. It was, however those who use the term folk-nazis who kept the issue alive. It would seem to me that there are two main lines of complaint in this topic, which are almost opposites and which should be separated: 1) It is unfair to compare people whose attitude to music you dislike to the perpetrators of an obscene horror. 2) Using the term nazi with reference to anyone but the originals belittles the suffering of victims of the third reich. With regard to the first; many, if not most, pejoratives are used with little or no regard to their literal meanings. When I refer to Pinochet as a murdering bastard I have no knowledge of his parentage and indeed would not dream of suggesting that having unmarried parents is something to beat a child with. Context is all. If you understand what people complaining about folk nazis are talking about, whether you agree or not, then the term works as a pejorative. It does not mean they think you are likely to murder 6 million Jews and it is bogus to pretend that this is what you thought. It means they really don't like what you do and misguided as they may be there is nothing to say that they should. With regard to the second point I think the debate is much more difficult. I understand that any reference to or reminder of the horrors the Nazis brought about is painful, more painful than I as a child of the 50's can understand. I am not sure,though, that this is a pain we should avoid; that way we forget. Surely it is better to use the term nazis as a pejorative and be told off for a lack of gravity then reminded what the reality was than to let the term slip from our conciousness. The bigger danger is that we avoid uncomfortable issues and pretend that everything is nice in our world. It is better that subjects are raised at every level of discussion and awareness than that they are brushed under the carpet. The nazis convinced millions of ordinary people all across Europe that their economic interests justified the slaughter of less worthy races or groups of people. This was not wrong because they lost the war, it was just wrong. And it does not become right when the slaughter is being carried out in the name of democracy by countries so powerful there is no chance they will be defeated. |