Frankie and Johnny - historical basis

20 Aug 97 - 12:13 PM (#10861)
Subject: Frankie and Johnny
From: Earl

I have heard that the song "Frankie and Johnny" is based on an actual event. Does anyone know where and when it took place?

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22 Aug 97 - 06:31 PM (#11074)
Subject: RE: Frankie and Johnny
From: Barry Finn

Frankie & Johnny, Frankie & Albert (said to be the older), Frankies Blues, Sadie or Josie, was, according to Sandburg, already popular among railroaders of the west & along the Mississippi River by 1888, and makes no guess as to the orgins. Lomax says of a woman named Frankie Silvers became the heroine of a ballad, though probaly not the direct ancestor of the Frankies', after chopping up her no good husband, with an axe, on the Toe River (at the Head of the Toe?), North Carolina, in 1831. He also reports that there were claims that it was sung by Federal troops before Vicksburg in 1863. Barry

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24 Aug 97 - 06:24 PM (#11132)
Subject: RE: Frankie and Johnny
From: Earl

Barry, Thanks for the info. I wanted some history for a set of American murder songs to perform a festival (yesterday.) "The Erotic Muse" said Frankie was a St.Louis whore who shot Johnnie (or Albert) around the turn of the century. I went with that. The great thing about folk songs is the deeper you go the muddier it gets. Anyway, I knew someone here would have the answer.

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25 Aug 97 - 09:43 AM (#11163)
Subject: RE: Frankie and Johnny
From: LaMarca

Earl, there's a great collection called "American Murder Ballads" by Olive Wooley Burt, which has lyrics and histories for a whole slew of songs. It's out of print, now, but you might be able to get a copy from your local library or through inter-library loan. Two of our dear friends gave a copy of it to us as a wedding present, with the comment that we were not to use it as an instruction manual...

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25 Aug 97 - 02:52 PM (#11191)
Subject: RE: Frankie and Johnny
From: Earl

Thanks LaMarca. I actually have a copy of "American Murder Ballads" on order, I think the UPS strike has held up delivery. I saw it mentioned elsewhere on the web and went looking for it. Although it is out of print I found it at Camsco an excellent source for music books.

Good advice from your friends, we always say if you can sing about it you don't have to do it.

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28 Feb 06 - 06:21 PM (#1681652)
Subject: RE: Frankie and Johnny - historical basis
From: GUEST,[e-mail]

Hi my name is Barbara Waddill. I am related to Frankie and Johnny.

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17 Sep 06 - 05:52 AM (#1836514)
Subject: RE: Frankie and Johnny - historical basis
From: GUEST,hnsh

how duz da oem go r fter dis line

frankie and johny were luvers oh my fgawd hhow day did luv

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17 Sep 06 - 11:30 AM (#1836658)
Subject: RE: Frankie and Johnny - historical basis
From: Charlie Baum

http://bluegrassmessengers.com/master/frankie1.html

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17 Sep 06 - 12:12 PM (#1836681)
Subject: RE: Frankie and Johnny - historical basis
From: Lighter

The link provided by Charlie Baum offers a lot of good information.

There's virtually no similarity between "Frankie and Johnny/ Albert" and "Frankie Silvers." (Follow the links at the top of the page to the "Silvers" texts in DT.)

Sandburg's reference to "Frankie and Johnny/ Albert" being sung in 1888 is almost certainly mistaken. The various versions known today are ultimately based on the 1899 murder of Al Britt in St. Louis.

The lively "Leavin' Home" version was composed in 1911-12 by the Leighton Bros., a popular vaudeville team. I've seen the sheet music.

Randolph-Legman gives a lot of information on all of this. Bruce Buckley wrote a dissertation on the whole issue of "F & J" at Indiana University back in 1962. Since then there have been no significant new discoveries about the origin of the song.

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17 Sep 06 - 03:25 PM (#1836795)
Subject: RE: Frankie and Johnny - historical basis
From: GUEST

From the www

"Frankie and Johnny
CBM 177
This lecture explores the origins of the Frankie and Johnny story and song which began with the murder of Allen Brit by Frankie Baker in 1901. It traces the development of the song through Mae West, Guy Lombardo, and Johnny Cash."

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17 Sep 06 - 03:45 PM (#1836816)
Subject: RE: Frankie and Johnny - historical basis
From: GUEST

http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:xKypX0cgA0EJ:bluegrassmessengers.com/master/frankie1.html+allen+britt,+frankie+baker&hl=en&g

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17 Sep 06 - 05:11 PM (#1836869)
Subject: RE: Frankie and Johnny - historical basis
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

It is better to go directly to the website of the Bluegrass Messengers. Related materials in other songs are accessed more easily:
www.bluegrassmessengers.com/bluelyrics.html
Messengers

Scroll down on their Bluegrass Lyrics Page to # 3, 'Fiddle Tunes and Instrumental Tune Lyrics'.
One may go directly to this section by using www.bluegrassmessengers/fiddle.html
Fiddle

Scroll down to the versions (10 of them) of Frankie and Johnny.
Much of the material is in Mudcat threads, since the Messengers used to post in them, and used material from them posted by others.

The link posted by Charlie Baum gets directly to "Frankie."

I hope that the Messengers will be able to fill in some of the other categories. Their "Fiddle Tunes ..." category is very helpful.

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17 Sep 06 - 05:16 PM (#1836874)
Subject: RE: Frankie and Johnny - historical basis
From: GUEST

Thanks, Q.

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17 Sep 06 - 10:04 PM (#1837051)
Subject: RE: Frankie and Johnny - historical basis
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

The versions collected by Gordon are not mentioned by Duncan Emrich, a later successor as Chief of the Folklore Section of the Library of Congress. His "American Folk Poetry," p. 726, has a late version collected by Henry in 1930.
Why a late version? And no history.

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17 Sep 06 - 10:08 PM (#1837057)
Subject: RE: Frankie and Johnny - historical basis
From: GUEST,thurg

"Frankie is a common nickname for prostitutes in England and America for four centuries."


Anyone come across this notion before?

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17 Sep 06 - 10:51 PM (#1837083)
Subject: RE: Frankie and Johnny - historical basis
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

New to me.

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18 Sep 06 - 03:01 PM (#1837616)
Subject: RE: Frankie and Johnny - historical basis
From: Lighter

One of the Restoration drolleries (can't recall which one) does indeed include a song mentioning a young lady named "Frankie." I'll try to dig it up.

Exept for the name (a nickname for "Frances"), the song bears no resemblance to "Frankie & Johnny." But the nickname is older than one might have thought.

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18 Sep 06 - 08:29 PM (#1837859)
Subject: RE: Frankie and Johnny - historical basis
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

In the southwest, sometimes used for Francisco. Heard it used for Francesca. These, of course, belong with Francis-Frances.

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18 Sep 06 - 11:02 PM (#1837946)
Subject: RE: Frankie and Johnny - historical basis
From: GUEST

GARGOYLE'S source for the "Frankie = prostitute" is given above:

RANDOLOPH, VANCE Roll Me in Your Arms "Unprintable Ozark Folksongs and Folklore," Vol I, "Folksongs and Music," Edited by G. Legman, University of Arkansas Press, Fayetteville, 1992, p477-484.

Anyone doubting the "John" insinuation needs only to scan their local police blotter.

On GUEST's behalf the Historical Random House Dictionary of American Slang gives no reference to "Frankie=prostitute."

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18 Sep 06 - 11:08 PM (#1837950)
Subject: RE: Frankie and Johnny - historical basis
From: Phil Cooper

Also check the book The Rose & the Briar for their essay on the background of the song.

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20 Jan 07 - 04:41 PM (#1942752)
Subject: RE: Frankie and Johnny - historical basis
From: GUEST,John Garst

Phil Cooper wrote:

>Also check the book The Rose & the Briar for their essay on the background of the song.

I advise caution. Without citing evidence, this essay states, "Britt's given name was Albert, but he was also known as 'Allen.'"

I have found no evidence of this. He is Allen, apparently, in all official records. Frankie Baker is quoted as saying that he liked to be called "Albert" but even this is suspect. She might well have said "Al Britt" and been misheard as saying "Albert." There is testimony that he was called "Al." It is highly probable that such a mishearing is responsible for the appearance of "Albert" in the ballad.

One or two collected versions begin

"Frankie Baker was a good girl"

instead of the more common

"Frankie was a good girl"

If one whole name was used then the other probably was, too, something like

"Al Britt's suit of clothes"

misheard as

"Albert's suit of clothes"

Consistent with the hypothesis of early whole name use is the treatment of Alice Pryor, the "other woman." Her whole name is almost always given, though never entirely correctly. She is "Alice Pry, "Alice Bly," "Nellie Bly," etc.

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23 Mar 07 - 04:38 AM (#2004727)
Subject: RE: Frankie and Johnny - historical basis
From: Liz the Squeak

Dammit, you rotten sod! Refreshing this has just put the song back in my head, but being me, it's got it's own twist.

I don't know where else it's found, but in the UK we have a chain of 'New York/Italian family restaurants' called 'Frankie and Benny's'. Now my brain has irrevocably linked these two items and every time I go past a F&B restaurant, I can't help but sing:

Frankie and Benny were lovers....


Not been thrown out of one yet, but it's a near thing!

LTS

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29 Aug 09 - 04:34 AM (#2711376)
Subject: RE: Frankie and Johnny - historical basis
From: TinDor

Interesting link

Click Kiel Opera House and Four Courts
and
the story of
Frankie and Johnny

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29 Aug 09 - 04:01 PM (#2711664)
Subject: RE: Frankie and Johnny - historical basis
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Thanks, a good summary.

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18 Oct 09 - 08:59 PM (#2747632)
Subject: RE: Frankie and Johnny - historical basis
From: Stewie

You can hear the earliest recordings of the ballad by Bernard and Crumit HERE

The recording by Al Bernard in May 1921 (Brunswick 2107B) preceded Frank Crumit's effort by a few months. Bernard, who was from the minstrel tradition and performed coon songs and early jazz-related material, was quite popular in his day. He had some similarity to Emmett Miller, but never approached Miller's vocal eccentricity. Albeit he was not particularly distinguished, his recording of 'Frankie and Johnny' is of some historical interest.

--Stewie.

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19 Oct 09 - 04:38 AM (#2747750)
Subject: RE: Frankie and Johnny - historical basis
From: GUEST,Paul Slade

If I can be of any help:

It's a Frame-up: Frankie & Johnny

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17 Nov 14 - 01:31 PM (#3677844)
Subject: RE: Frankie and Johnny - historical basis
From: GUEST,Joseph Scott

The source of the persistent stories about this song being sung before the 1870s is Thomas Beer. Here is Stephen Crane expert Paul Sorrentino describing Beer's biography of Stephen Crane: "Beer had altered the chronology of Crane's life, invented incidents, and composed letters allegedly from Crane. The pattern of fabrication is evident from the onset. Letters supposedly written by Crane are quoted in an early draft of the biography, then substantially revised in a later draft to fit scenarios involving other people, who, it turns out, are themselves apparently fictional."

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17 Nov 14 - 01:51 PM (#3677848)
Subject: RE: Frankie and Johnny - historical basis
From: Mrrzy

This is such a fun forum. Did they really have descendants?

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17 Nov 14 - 04:04 PM (#3677881)
Subject: RE: Frankie and Johnny - historical basis
From: Lighter

Folklorist Gershon Legman wrote that he once contacted Beer for the source of his "information" that "F&J" was sung in the 1870s.

Legman pointedly noted that he never received a reply.

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18 Nov 14 - 08:18 AM (#3678063)
Subject: RE: Frankie and Johnny - historical basis
From: mayomick

I read at Paul Slade's link from five years ago that the killing " took place just a few blocks from where Stagger Lee had killed Billy Lions four years before " and that Frankie and Johnnie and Stagolee "have always tended to get tangled up with one another " .

To me, "Hop Joint" -as sung by Mississipi John Hurt - sounds more closely related to Frankie and Johnnie than Stagolee does .
The Planet Slade article notes:
"There was a long razor scar down the side of her [Frankie's]face she got in her teens from a girl who was jealous of her. "

Hurt has a version of Stagolee , which may have been a bit like Frankie and Johnnie , but Hop Joint has these two lines :
I gotta brand new razor and a forty-four gun /gonna cut you if you stay here ,shoot you if you run

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18 Nov 14 - 12:15 PM (#3678131)
Subject: RE: Frankie and Johnny - historical basis
From: GUEST,Joseph Scott

According to the first-hand account of police detective Lieutenant Ira Cooper (born 1877), who heard plenty of music at dives whether he liked it or not, St. Louis pianist Bill Dooley wrote a version of "Frankie" about the death of fellow St. Louis pianist Al Britt in late 1899. Dooley very likely would have known "Stack-a-lee," which we know was around by 1897. Those 12-bar bad man ballads tended to blend into each other. Not just floaters about buggies and hacks and the like, as we often hear mentioned, but lines from "Boll Weevil" into lines in the ballads about men, for instance.

"Hop Joint" was apparently better-known in roughly 1901 than we usually see suggested, and as Peter Muir has pointed out, the Scarborough version of "Hop Joint" that mentions Bill Bailey hints at the possibility of a folk ballad about Bill Bailey that inspired the pop songs about Bill Bailey. (There is no reasonable doubt that the clique of songwriters who wrote the pop Bill Bailey cycle were being significantly influenced by black folk music.)

As far as we can tell, all of that cross-fertilization of clearly 12-bar ballads in many states -- from "The Carrier Line" to "Fighting In The War With Spain," and as far as we can tell all starting with "The Bully" in maybe 1893 (Handy's autobiography isn't entirely reliable on dates) -- all that was going on for about _a decade_ before the folk blues songs that explicitly mentioned having the "blues" arose (in about 1905 or 1906).

As if that weren't complicated enough, the clearly 12-bar songs also blend into the pretty nearly 12-bar songs that go straight from IV to V, a la "Take A One On Me," and if you go far enough down that road and you get to tunes related to "Take A One On Me" that no one seemed to think were 12-bar such as "Alabama Bound," and also there's the 8-bar IV-IV-I-I-V-V-I-I or roughly 8-bar songs similar to "Bucket's Got A Hole In It" or the Pratcher Brothers' "If It's All Night Long" -- there's no reasonable doubt that that's _all_ connected (possibly all before anyone put the word "blues" in any of them). Phew!

Part of Hurt's charm was that he didn't know what the songs were really about very well, which ironically is good, because he was effectively a man with a great memory taking snapshots in roughly 1902-1917 of a lot of different people's songs that were around on front porches, next to train tracks, etc. As opposed to say Leadbelly with whom you have to sort out whether he had decided an English ballad would sound good if mixed with something else on _that_ particular day.

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18 Nov 14 - 12:28 PM (#3678134)
Subject: RE: Frankie and Johnny - historical basis
From: GUEST,Joseph Scott

"as far as we can tell all starting with 'The Bully' in maybe 1893" Well, we know that the existence of 12-bar songs at all long predates the 1890s (e.g. "Rain Fall And Wet Becca Lawton"). But I was talking about the specific songs we know of that seem to be connected to each other. (It's pretty obvious that 12-bar songs can't have been very popular in the U.S. in the 1870s-1880s if you read enough Lafcadio Hearn, Thomas Talley, etc.)

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25 Feb 16 - 09:47 AM (#3774938)
Subject: RE: Frankie and Johnny - historical basis
From: Humperdinkysaurus

I wonder if anyone can help with a question about the tune history?

As I understand it we're talking about two quite distinct ones:

(1) 'Frankie and Albert [Johnny]', page 84 in Dorothy Scarborough's 'On the trail of negro folk songs'. The one most of us grew up with, as performed by King Oliver, Johnny Cash et al.

(2) 'Frankie', Scarborough page 83 – the John Hurt version.

Do we know which Bill Dooley is to be credited with? I notice Joseph Scott is careful to say Dooley "wrote a version" of the song in the aftermath of the event, but do we know what it was like (beyond being performed as a dirge)? Was it a version of (1) which then via Hughie Cannon (1904) and the Leighton Bros (1908) wound up as Leightons / Shields (1912) and conquered the world from there? Or don't we know?

Is there a tradition attached to (2), apart from what Scarborough tells us on page 83?

I notice Scarborough called (1) the 'less frequent' version in 1925, suggesting (2) was still the more common at that time. But 'still' begs the question. In 'Big road blues' (p45) David Evans says MJH's "recording of this piece is probably typical of the way it was performed around 1910 and earlier". I'm unclear whether by "this piece" he means (2), or whether he is suggesting that until around 1910 or perhaps later (2) would have been the dominant Frankie song, being displaced at some point thereafter by (1).

Although a little run-down of the known history would be appreciated, any answer to my basic question would be useful. It's as simple as: in describing 'Frankie and Albert' as a 12-bar so-called blues ballad, as they often do, what version do scholars have in mind? Is it (2) or an original form of (1)? Or don't we know?

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23 Jan 21 - 03:35 PM (#4089563)
Subject: RE: Frankie and Johnny - historical basis
From: GUEST,Joseph Scott

The p. 83 and p. 84 Scarborough versions are both effectively 12-bar bad man ballad*, if you account for the fact that folk singers (1) weren't about it's "really" 2/4 vs. it's "really" 4/4 and (2) often sang crooked, e.g. jumping the gun before getting to 12 bars, e.g. "Take A Whiff On Me" and related songs routinely got shortened down to about 11 or 10 (probably not a coincidence that those singers were often on coke, huh). Hurt was typical with his crookedness for bad-man-ballad-era material, shortening or lengthening a bit crooked on some songs, which would typically be however he learned them.

We don't know which of those two Scarborough versions is earlier.

*As H. suggests "blues ballad" is a misnomer; people began thinking of first-person blues songs as a genre in roughly 1906-1909, and that new fad was typically not about old third-person bad man ballads.

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25 Jan 21 - 07:43 AM (#4089814)
Subject: RE: Frankie and Johnny - historical basis
From: Thompson

What exactly is a sporting man?
1) a pimp?
2) a man who worked in brothels, eg piano-playing?
3) a general criminal?
4) a customer in a brothel?
The other reference that strikes me is "Till I became a sporting blade at the age of 17/23" in The Boston Burglar.

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25 Jan 21 - 10:13 AM (#4089825)
Subject: RE: Frankie and Johnny - historical basis
From: Lighter

"Sport is the old word for "fun," which included "sex," which includes prostitiution.

In the U.S. especially, the meaning was broadened in the nineteenth century to include gambling.

The verb "to sport" related to all these things.

So a "sporting man" could be a man who devotes himself to fun (including actual sports), gambling, and/or commercial sex.

It depends on the context.

The Boston burglar was presumably a "wild and wicked youth."

In the U.S., however, a "sportsman" (when not a hunter or athlete) was specifically a pimp. A "sporting girl" or "sporting woman" was always a prostitute.

The closest current synonym for "sporting man" may be "player," which covers most of the same activities in a comparably nonspecific way.

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25 Jan 21 - 10:17 AM (#4089827)
Subject: RE: Frankie and Johnny - historical basis
From: Thompson

Thanks, Lighter. If my memory is long, "For the raiding of the Union Bank I was sent to jail", or something like that. So maybe a bit wild.

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25 Jan 21 - 10:21 AM (#4089829)
Subject: RE: Frankie and Johnny - historical basis
From: Lighter

I take back what I said about "always" in reference to females.

But the innocent sense (a woman who likes innocent fun and socializing) was uncommon and more or less literary.

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25 Jan 21 - 02:07 PM (#4089873)
Subject: RE: Frankie and Johnny - historical basis
From: GUEST,#

https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/78308/story-behind-frankie-and-johnny

More grist for the mill.

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25 Jan 21 - 02:54 PM (#4089877)
Subject: RE: Frankie and Johnny - historical basis
From: Lighter

Thompson, I have it as the "robbing of the Munster (or "National") bank and the drinking of the rum."

But sing on!

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04 Mar 23 - 04:10 PM (#4166873)
Subject: RE: Frankie and Johnny - historical basis
From: Lighter

Can anyone ID the truly priceless lines in this version?

Tacoma Sunday Ledger (July 22, 1928):

What follows is the drawing-room version, and we have trimmed that in spots, inasmuch as we have a humanitarian aversion to the prospect of seeing the editors of this paper thrust into the hoosegow during this warm weather:

Frankie and Johnny were lovers,
Heavens above, how they loved!
They swore to be true to each oter,
As true as the stars above,
He was her man,
But he done her wrong.

One day Frankie went down to the corner,
   Just to get a bucket of beer.
She said to the jolly bartender,
   "Have you seen my man around here?"
He is my man,
Is he doing me wrong?"

"Well, I ain't gonna tell you no stories,
   I ain't gonna tell you no lies.
He left here just an hour ago
   With big, black Lizzie Wise."
"Dod gast his soul,
He's a-dealin' in coal."

So Frankie went up to the hop joint,
   She didn't go there for fun;
Underneath her jacket,
   She was toting a forty-five gun,
Looking for her man,
Who done her wrong.

Johnny he made for the doorway,
   Hollering "Frankie, don't shoot!"
But Frankie cut loose with that big forty-five
   Five times with a rooty-toot-toot.
She shot her man,
'Cause he done her wrong.

Frankie she shot him one time,
   Then Frankie she shot him twice.
And as she shot him the fifth and last time,
   She hollered, "Ain't it nice
To kill your man,
When he's done you wrong?"

"Oh, turn me over, Frankie,
   Turn me over slow;
Turn me over, Frankie,
   'Cause those bullets hurt me so.
You killed your man
That done you wrong."

So Frankie she turned him on his stomach,
   Then Frankie she turned him on his side,
And as she turned him the last time,
   He dropped his little head and died.    [2 lines missing

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04 Mar 23 - 04:26 PM (#4166874)
Subject: RE: Frankie and Johnny - historical basis
From: Lighter

[Must learn to type...]

"Oh, bring on your rubber-tired hearses,
Bring on your rubber-tired hacks,
Carry my Johnny to the burying ground,
And don't never bring him back.
He was my man,
But he done me wrong.

"Bring on your big fat policemen
In their uniforms of blue and gray.
Lock me up in the jail house,
And throw the key away."    [Refrain missing again, presumably to save space

Frankie she was a good girlie,
As everybody knows,
So the judge and the jury,
They had to let poor Frankie go.   [Ditto

Now Frankie works down in a sweatshop,
Underneath a 'lectric fan.
She says to the girlies all gathered round,
"Never trust your man.
He'll do you wrong,
He's bound to do you wrong."


The contributor, a certain Frank Roule, wrote, "I first introduced this song in the eastern states in the fall of 1915. I had two versions, the drawing-room and the billiard room. Occasionally I would sing the billiard room version (which is the original) in the drawing-room after 1 o'clock at night, after everybody had a snootful of gin or was flushed with wine, according to sex."

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04 Mar 23 - 07:47 PM (#4166900)
Subject: RE: Frankie and Johnny - historical basis
From: Lighter

Here is the complete contemporaneous St. Louis Post-Dispatch coverage of the crime:

Oct. 16, 1899:

"SERIOUSLY WOUNDED.--Frankie Backer [sic] shot Allen Britt in the abdomen Sunday, seriously wounding him. Both are colored. The shooting occurred in Britt's room at 212 Targee street. The woman escaped."

Oct. 19, 1899:

"Allen Britt Died From a Knife Wound Inflicted by a Woman....

"Allen Britt's brief experience of the art of love cost him his life.

"He died at the Hospital Wednesday night from knife wounds inflicted by Frankie Baker, an ebony-hued cakewalker.

Britt was also colored. He was 17 years old. He met Frankie at the 'Orange Blossom's' ball, and was smitten with her. Frankie reciprocated and invited him to call on her. Thereafter they were lovers.

In the rear of 212 Targee street lived Britt. There his sweetheart wended her way a few nights ago, and lectured Allen for his alleged duplicity. Allen's reply was not intended to cheer the dusky damsel, and the glint of steel gleamed in the darkness. An instant later, the boy fell to the floor, mortally wounded. Frankie Baker is locked up at the Four Courts."

In a Post-Dispatch story on Oct. 28, 1939, a former neighbor of Frankie's named Tillie Griffin is quoted as testifying in court that she began hearing the song "about three months after the trouble."

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