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06 Oct 00 - 12:46 AM (#313320) Subject: Yugoslavia From: Alice The people of Belgrade take over state television. The parliament building is stormed. click here |
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06 Oct 00 - 01:30 AM (#313331) Subject: RE: Yugoslavia From: DougR Viva good people of Yugoslavia! Reclaim your country! Now the U.S. and allies better get off their butts and help those people. DougR |
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06 Oct 00 - 01:47 AM (#313335) Subject: RE: Yugoslavia From: Haruo Hopefully at least a good song or two'll come out of it (albeit in Serbian). Reminds me of a couple things: The Tom Lehrer lines, Remember the war against Franco!and the fact that I keep meaning to ask if anybody knows where there's either a MIDI of the tune or the original Polish words of the the Polish revolutionary song anglicized as "Whirlwinds of Danger" (I think), from a 19th-century anti-czarist uprising; 1848? Or know any other details about it (like so many other songs, I only know it in Esperanto, as Varsovia Kanto.) Seriously, though, it will be nice not to have Milosevic to kick [us] around anymore. Liland |
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06 Oct 00 - 07:52 AM (#313401) Subject: RE: Yugoslavia From: catspaw49 BTW, there's another thread running on this with an "unclear" title like "thoughts about tonight" Whatever.......I am still completely taken over with the looks on the faces. What a combination of wonerful, happy, emotions............ Spaw |
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06 Oct 00 - 08:59 AM (#313441) Subject: RE: Yugoslavia From: M. Ted (inactive) Anyone know of any good Serbian lyric sites? |
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06 Oct 00 - 09:04 AM (#313443) Subject: RE: Yugoslavia From: Mrrzy I'll ask Mom if she can get me the words to anything. Wonder what her take will be, being in her mind an ethnic Serb, although the Serbs would probably call her ethnically Hungarian... But I've been watching this one closely. Bully for them, and about time! The courage they are showing reminds me of that Chinese guy in front of the tank in Tianenmen Square... |
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06 Oct 00 - 10:58 AM (#313490) Subject: RE: Yugoslavia From: Alice Wayne Skertich, whose house is near Yellowstone and the site of Bill and Allan's first night in Montana during the Mudcat Adventure, has a family background of the Skertich Brothers Tamboritza orchestra. Wayne has a tambura (large bass like instrument) in his living room. Tamburaweb is a site that I linked to earlier to show the Skertich Brothers orchestra. Tamburaweb has a large collection of songs and information about southeast European music.
Here is the site: Folk Songs and Singing from Southeastern Europe Alice |
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06 Oct 00 - 10:59 AM (#313491) Subject: RE: Yugoslavia From: WyoWoman I am so moved and inspired by this development. And I, too, was reminded of Tiannamen Square. (I hope the world community is more helpful in fostering this demand for democracy than they were in the case of the beautiful, courageous Chinese students ...) Wherever people yearn to breathe free .... ww |
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06 Oct 00 - 11:02 AM (#313492) Subject: RE: Yugoslavia From: Alice M.Ted, the Tamburitza page I linked to in the previous message has many links, including this one: click here Songs of Serbia. Alice |
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06 Oct 00 - 11:06 AM (#313496) Subject: RE: Yugoslavia From: Alice I should have labeled that link Balkan folk songs, the link to just Serbian songs is not working right now. |
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06 Oct 00 - 11:12 AM (#313501) Subject: RE: Yugoslavia From: mousethief I have never heard Serbian folk music (to the best of my knowledge) but if their folk music is anywhere near as good as their liturgical music, it's wonderful. I hope and pray that the conflict in Serbia will end soon, with a minimum of bloodshed, and with the people firmly IN and Milosevic firmly OUT. Interestingly the bishops of the Serbian Orthodox Church were the first to officially recognize the new regime, before ever any of the strikes started. These are the same guys who were being called dupes of Milosevic (and worse) during the Kosovo crisis, in spite of their calling for him to step down even then. Good ol' unbiased media.
Alex |
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06 Oct 00 - 01:00 PM (#313568) Subject: RE: Yugoslavia From: The Shambles Amid the scenes of popular celebration, taking place on the streets of Belgrade, I am reminded of somewhat similar scenes there, which greeted Milosevic's nationalist policies, against Kosovo in 1985. One hopes that we will learn the lesson from this and that all the suffering of so many people over these years will not then, be completely in vain? |
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06 Oct 00 - 01:40 PM (#313607) Subject: RE: Yugoslavia From: Kim C I hope this ends some of the unrest there which has gone on far too long. I also hope that American leaders take note, lest the same thing happen here. |
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06 Oct 00 - 01:44 PM (#313612) Subject: RE: Yugoslavia From: Lepus Rex I hate to be a bummer (no I don't), but I'm not as optimistic as all you folks seem to be. I mean, it's great, I hate Miloševiæ, I hope they do him like the Romanians did Ceausescu, but Koštunica is no angel, either. He's an anti-American nationalist who showed support for the Serbian atrocities in Kosova and Bosnia, and he strongly opposes the Hague Tribunal. He's not some courageous reformer, boldly leading the people of Serbia to freedom and enlightenment; he's just another murderous nationalist pig, barely better than Miloševiæ. :) |
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06 Oct 00 - 01:48 PM (#313614) Subject: RE: Yugoslavia From: Lepus Rex Oh, that 'æ' was a 'c' with a little slash above it when I wrote it.. Drat! |
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06 Oct 00 - 02:31 PM (#313650) Subject: RE: Yugoslavia From: McGrath of Harlow Let's wait and see. Being "anti-american" is an excusable enough attitude for anyone whose seen their country being flattened by American bombs. I assume he's anti the rest of NATO too. And if he hadn't not many people in Servia would have voted for him.
Politicians and others in all countries have blinkers on when it come to the crimes committed by their own countries. It's easy for us to recognise what happened in Kosovo and in Bosnia as Serbian atrocities, just as it is for people in the rest of the world to see what happened in Vietnam as American atrocities, or things that have happened in Ireland as English atrocities. And Irish atrocities. And there aren't any international war crimes tribunals for those things. Unfortunately maybe.
So lets wait and see. And remember that bit about motes and beams in the eye. |
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06 Oct 00 - 02:39 PM (#313657) Subject: RE: Yugoslavia From: mousethief No, McGrath, the Serbs are supposed to be GRATEFUL that the U.S. flattened all their power plants and industrial sites, cratered all their main highways, and so forth. With bombs whose casings were made from spent uranium. And chased them out of Kosovo, the bithplace of the Serbian nation and the locus of Serbian monasticism, giving it over to Armenian nationals who burned their houses, raped their women, and so forth. They should be grateful to the US&A and elect a pro-U.S. president, of course! (NOTE: THE PRECEDING IS SATIRE. PLEASE DO NOT THINK THIS IS MY ACTUAL VIEW.) Some days it's not easy being American.
Alex |
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06 Oct 00 - 02:44 PM (#313661) Subject: RE: Yugoslavia From: McGrath of Harlow "Armenian"? I think you've done a Bushism there Alex... |
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06 Oct 00 - 02:47 PM (#313663) Subject: RE: Yugoslavia From: Lepus Rex They gave Kosova to teh Armenians? I bet the Albanians are PISSED! ;) |
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06 Oct 00 - 02:50 PM (#313665) Subject: RE: Yugoslavia From: mousethief Okay okay, Albanians. Give me a break. It's lunch time and I still haven't eaten breakfast, and now I have egg on my face!
Alex |
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06 Oct 00 - 03:15 PM (#313683) Subject: RE: Yugoslavia From: McGrath of Harlow Never mind Alex, you're not running for President. If Bush gets to be President it could be a bit more embarassing. "You should have realised I hadn't meant for the Air Force to bomb Alabama..." |
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06 Oct 00 - 03:50 PM (#313699) Subject: RE: Yugoslavia From: The Shambles Albania, Armenia, Alabama, let's call the whole thing off. It did look like one hell of a party there last night...
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06 Oct 00 - 03:53 PM (#313702) Subject: RE: Yugoslavia From: McGrath of Harlow Didn't it just though - makes you wish that John Major had refused to accept the election results back in 1997... |
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06 Oct 00 - 03:54 PM (#313703) Subject: RE: Yugoslavia From: McGrath of Harlow ...And if only Maggie had held on for a couple of years, I reckon that's might have been what might have happened... |
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06 Oct 00 - 04:11 PM (#313710) Subject: RE: Yugoslavia From: DougR You're a riot, McGrath of Harlow. You doubters might be right, but at least whatever the people of Yugoslavia get out of this uprising, they will be getting what they THINK they want anyway. And my hunch is it won't be long until the leadership approaches the U. S. with outstretched arms (palms up of course). DougR |
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06 Oct 00 - 04:12 PM (#313712) Subject: RE: Yugoslavia From: DougR You're a riot, McGrath of Harlow. You doubters might be right, but at least whatever the people of Yugoslavia get out of this uprising, they will be getting what they THINK they want anyway. And my hunch is it won't be long until the leadership approaches the U. S. with outstretched arms (palms up of course). DougR |
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06 Oct 00 - 04:20 PM (#313715) Subject: RE: Yugoslavia From: sophocleese I've been enjoying reading the reports from the site that McGrath showed us yesterday. I particularly like this piece of sly writing: Judge gives legal opinion on Radio B2-92 16:34 BELGRADE, Friday – Radio B2-92 today attempted to contact Business Court Judge Milena Arezina. Arezina sits on the Federal Election Commission and is widely believed to have been one of the key regime figures in implementing last week's attempted election theft. Asked to comment on yesterday's events for Radio B2-92, she replied "Is that the shitty radio I struck from the register?" Free B92 apologises to any of its readers who may be confused by this obscure legal terminology, but we feel it is best to be completely accurate in reporting Judge Arezina's attitude to her legal responsibilities.
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06 Oct 00 - 04:42 PM (#313734) Subject: RE: Yugoslavia From: M. Ted (inactive) Sorry, Alice, should have been more specific, I meant to say I was looking for contemporary Serbian songs-- Also have a strange desire to hear "Yugoslavio", that wonderful government contrived "folk song" from the Tito years, celebrating the unity of the Yugoslav people(for some reason, it was never very popular)-- Remember how glad we all were to see Tito gone? A lot of water has gone under the bridge since then, and most of it bloody-- |
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06 Oct 00 - 04:53 PM (#313740) Subject: RE: Yugoslavia From: McGrath of Harlow "And my hunch is it won't be long until the leadership approaches the U.S. with outstretched arms (palms up of course)."
Now that phrase "with palms up of course" is the kind of thing that generates anti-American feeling. Having had airraids in our cities within living memory is something that most countries in Europe have in common, and it divides us from our cousins across the Atlantic, who have been fortunate enough to escape having that happen. |
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06 Oct 00 - 05:08 PM (#313755) Subject: RE: Yugoslavia From: DougR Your opinion, of course, McGrath of Harlow. Shall we wait and see what happens? :>) DougR |
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06 Oct 00 - 05:17 PM (#313757) Subject: RE: Yugoslavia From: mousethief DougR: "Shall we wait and see what happens?" Do we have any other choice?
Alex |
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06 Oct 00 - 07:25 PM (#313823) Subject: RE: Yugoslavia From: McGrath of Harlow I'm not suggesting they won't ask for aid, because unless that crazy Serb pride gets in the way they certainly will. I was jibbing at what I took to be an implied sneer. |
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06 Oct 00 - 07:26 PM (#313824) Subject: RE: Yugoslavia From: Haruo DougR: "And my hunch is it won't be long until the leadership approaches the U.S. with outstretched arms (palms up of course)." McGrath of Harlow Now that phrase "with palms up of course" is the kind of thing that generates anti-American feeling. Yes but(McGrath) Having had airraids in our cities within living memory is something that most countries in Europe have in common, depends; within the memory of some now living, yes, but of most, no — the Great Patriotic Fatherland War is pretty much ancient history. Most countries, yes; most Europeans as individuals, no.(McGrath) and it divides us from our cousins across the Atlantic, who have been fortunate enough to escape having that happen. Liland |
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06 Oct 00 - 08:16 PM (#313845) Subject: RE: Yugoslavia From: DougR McGrath of Harlow: I was not implying that the U.S. should not provide support, I would support our doing so. The U.S. did enough damage with the daily and nightly bombings, we should help them recover. DougR |
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06 Oct 00 - 08:31 PM (#313850) Subject: RE: Yugoslavia From: Lepus Rex Well, just thought I'd mention that Miloševic (imagine a slash over that 'c') has admited his defeat in the elections, and announced his resignation. ---Lepus Rex |
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06 Oct 00 - 08:33 PM (#313851) Subject: RE: Yugoslavia From: The Shambles Nice to see a man who can take a hint?.......... |
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06 Oct 00 - 09:16 PM (#313861) Subject: RE: Yugoslavia From: McGrath of Harlow No Liland, I didn't mean to suggest that most people can remember the bombing. But there are a lot of us who do. And if you extend living memory to include people who have parents who remember it, it's probably a majority.
Living memory/folk memory - it's still pretty close. And I think that affects how a lot of people react to the idea of air raids happening to other people. In fact I strongly suspect that the reason why the term "air strikes" was used all the time was to try and undermine the link. I don't mean that necessarily makes people oppose the bombing , but it cuts down the sense of distance - there's more of an awareness that "that could be us".
(I also suspect incidentally that this folk memory was one reason why the IRA bombing campaigns in London were treated in a relatively matter-of-fact most of the time.) |
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06 Oct 00 - 10:56 PM (#313889) Subject: RE: Yugoslavia From: Lonesome EJ I am so moved and inspired by this development. And I, too, was reminded of Tiannamen Square. (I hope the world community is more helpful in fostering this demand for democracy than they were in the case of the beautiful, courageous Chinese students ...)- Wyowoman I agree.And I believe that the Chinese Democratic movement wouldn't have collapsed if the US and the rest of the free nations had applied anything like the pressure applied against Milosevich.I'm afraid that the fact that China possesses the World's largest standing army and a nuclear potential, and the innumerable dollars being exchanged between China and the US, influenced our reaction.Disgression is the better part of valor,after all. |
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06 Oct 00 - 11:12 PM (#313891) Subject: RE: Air raids vs. air strikes and China's hugenes From: Haruo I'm reminded of another snippet of Tom Lehrer lyrics (in, I believe, "Who's Next?") from pre-ping-pong days: China, which we call Red China,Liland |
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07 Oct 00 - 12:06 AM (#313929) Subject: RE: Yugoslavia From: DougR I agree with you Lonesome EJ, the situation in China is very different from the current situation in Yugoslavia. I can't help but wonder, however, if the current uprising by the people was motivated by the sanctions that were imposed by NATO, or, if eventually the people would have said we have had enough, and would have rebelled anyway at some point. In other words, I am wondering if the NATO military campaign had anything at all to do with the current uprising. Sanctions that have been in effect for decades against the Castro regime in Cuba have certainly not had the same effect. There have been no uprising by the Cuban people in Cuba, and if one is to believe reports by some Mudcatters who have spent time in Cuba, everything is pretty rosy down there. Makes one wonder (me at least). DougR |
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07 Oct 00 - 07:47 AM (#314043) Subject: RE: Yugoslavia From: Lena Who is taking over what?!To do what?!Another population it's going to take over the remaining ones.I doubth anything positive is ever going to happen there.I doubth squish squash of proud ethnic groups can forget rancour and forgive.It's just a new chapter... |
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07 Oct 00 - 09:01 AM (#314057) Subject: RE: Yugoslavia From: catspaw49 Lena, all history is simply "another chapter." I'm still encouraged and not at all concerned over anti-American feelings.......I mean really, isn't being anti-American just part and parcel of most of the world? If we'd supporrt humanity instead of politics, perhaps it wouldn't make us look so bad at times. I think we also get overly hung up on "saying thank you." If you do what you need to do and act with honor, who cares whether someone says thanks? I don't believe in altruism on any level, personally or nationally. We all do things because we somehow perceive them to be in our best interests too. Very hopeful here still.........It can work. Spaw |
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25 Jun 01 - 10:01 AM (#491327) Subject: RE: Yugoslavia From: GUEST,Mimsey Alice, Thanks! I was looking for the spelling and your thread had it! I'll take it as gospel truth since all Mudcaters are such honst types. Thanks again! |
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27 May 06 - 10:12 PM (#1748832) Subject: RE: Yugoslavia From: GUEST,Dory You are mad, you peoples! Yugoslavia was a wonderful country, with or without Milosevici and the euro-american interests has destroyed it. God be with with the american peoples for the voting giving to That idiot Bush |