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26 Oct 00 - 03:39 PM (#327973) Subject: Lyr Add: WHEN I WAS IN MY PRIME^^^ From: Catrin Hi folks, I was reminded of this song at Llanstock, where someone sang it with exceptional beauty. My question is, does anyone know the 'meanings' beind the flowers. I think it's pretty common knowledge that the red rose represents passion or sexual love. But what about the pink or the violet? I have heard people talk of publications which concentrate on symbolism in folk songs. Any ideas anyone? Cheers, Catrin Here's the lyrics - to aid discussion:-
WHEN I WAS IN MY PRIME Click for Related Thread |
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26 Oct 00 - 03:57 PM (#327997) Subject: RE: Help: when I was in my prime - symbolism From: katlaughing From the National Encyclopedaedia of Business and Social Forms, embracing The Laws of Etiquette and Good Society, etc. etc. (the title goes on for a full page!) Published in 1884, the following was taken from the Language and Sentiment of Flowers
pink: boldness There are a bunch of specifics for different types and colours of roses, but a red rosebud stands for pure and lovely kat
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26 Oct 00 - 04:02 PM (#328008) Subject: RE: Help: when I was in my prime - symbolism From: Liz the Squeak Thread creep.... the faithful violet was the flower given to the French troops on Napoleons' return from exile to fight at Waterloo. Ivy is also for faithfulness. Flowers are not just for lovers. The rose of true love is the yellow rose, red is more the physical side, as above. White roses are for fidelity. LTS |
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26 Oct 00 - 04:04 PM (#328011) Subject: RE: Help: when I was in my prime - symbolism From: MMario The pink, which is of the carnation family, would be "admiration" - the violet is Faithfulness, steadfastness and modesty.. The willow = forsaken love. so - girl meets boy, boy ditches girl. The faithful boy next door offers the girl admiration, faithfulness, marriage and love, but she knows the marriage (on her part) will be false and full of sadness. |
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26 Oct 00 - 04:04 PM (#328014) Subject: RE: Help: when I was in my prime - symbolism From: SINSULL Depends on the culture. Yellow roses from an Iranian means "goodbye". |
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26 Oct 00 - 04:11 PM (#328022) Subject: RE: Help: when I was in my prime - symbolism From: SINSULL Thread Creep Alert: When I was a child I had a collection of fairytales. One was about two sisters - Rose Red and Snow White who were being chased by a witch in "seven league boots". They hid by disguising themselves as roses - one red, one white. The witch saw the two different colored roses on a single bush and knew something was up. She plucked the red rose and Rose Red died. I have not been able to find this variation of the theme anywhere. Anybody know where I can find it? |
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26 Oct 00 - 04:16 PM (#328028) Subject: RE: Help: when I was in my prime - symbolism From: katlaughing I used to have that one, too! I will see if I can find, been packing books all week, so will see if it is in one my fairytale ones. |
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26 Oct 00 - 04:36 PM (#328045) Subject: RE: Help: when I was in my prime - symbolism From: MMario ditto about having that tale as a child. I'm pretty sure it got given away though. 90 % of our books did when my parents converted the house back to a duplex. (including of a hundred years of National Geographics) |
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26 Oct 00 - 04:37 PM (#328046) Subject: RE: Help: when I was in my prime - symbolism From: Allan C. I think she may be talking about pinks (the wildflowers - often cultivated) literally. The blooms really don't last very long. |
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26 Oct 00 - 08:50 PM (#328183) Subject: RE: Help: when I was in my prime - symbolism From: MMario but...but...but...my symbolism hangs together with the whole lyric..... |
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26 Oct 00 - 09:16 PM (#328199) Subject: RE: Help: when I was in my prime - symbolism From: Allan C. What I meant was that the symbolism was not solely dependant upon the interpretation of the colors but could stand alone on the flowers themselves. |
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26 Oct 00 - 09:55 PM (#328214) Subject: RE: Help: when I was in my prime - symbolism From: Allan C. Don't you just hate it when you read what you just posted and realize that you didn't quite say what you were trying to say? I mean that the blooming habits of the flowers alone was enough to get the point across without attaching further significance.
(Yeah... there... now I think I said it right... maybe.) |
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27 Oct 00 - 04:36 AM (#328393) Subject: RE: Help: when I was in my prime - symbolism From: Catrin Very frustrating last night - I couldn't get on to the 'cat despite trying for hours.... Alan and Mmario - I think you're both right. To be any good, the song has to be understandable in a completely literal sense. So it is true that the pink does fade very quickly, the violet has a pale hue and the rose does bloom in June. We can listen to the song on that level and still find it beautiful. It is also true that 'girl was ditched by boy and offered stability but declined it only to die of a broken heart'. Something we understand only after the meaning of the flowers has been explained. I find the 'gardener' has more significance for me as well. He is, or could well be, the boy next door who offers stability. But I find the term 'gardener' loaded with meaning. He tends the garden and therefore has control over life and death. Could he not be fate, or God, or father time..... Just a thought. |
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27 Oct 00 - 09:02 AM (#328444) Subject: RE: Help: when I was in my prime - symbolism From: MMario Catrin - I had thought of that as well.... and I bet if we look we will find there is some symbolic meaning for "crystal" and possibly even for the washing of the face. |
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27 Oct 00 - 02:05 PM (#328635) Subject: RE: Help: when I was in my prime - symbolism From: Catrin 'I'll weep a bowl of crystal tears to wash his deceitful face' - beautiful. I have no idea what it means though, other than the literal meaning - lots of crying. Food for thought. Cheers, Catrin |
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27 Oct 00 - 02:11 PM (#328640) Subject: RE: Help: when I was in my prime - symbolism From: Allan C. I think that in some places it was the custom to wash the face of the deceased as a parting gesture (and I suppose to clean them up for the burial). Perhaps it is just a way for her to express her wish that he were dead. |
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27 Oct 00 - 02:26 PM (#328652) Subject: RE: Help: when I was in my prime - symbolism From: MMario Makes sense to me |
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27 Oct 00 - 02:26 PM (#328653) Subject: RE: Help: when I was in my prime - symbolism From: Catrin Yeah, she wants revenge - it makes sense. If she's going to die, then he should die as well - like Barbara Allan. In the version I know, on the last verse it goes:-
If I live for one year more (I copied and pasted the version in my first post on this thread from the DT. I think that 'young' is a typo.) Anyway, if she believes that she'll probably be dead in a year (through a broken heart), then revenge would make sense, (in the context of the song that is, NOT morally - you know what I mean) *BG* Cheers, Catrin |
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27 Oct 00 - 02:29 PM (#328657) Subject: RE: Help: when I was in my prime - symbolism From: Catrin What fun. Made sense to both of us Allan - at the same time too! (notice cross posting!) Cheers, Catrin |
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27 Oct 00 - 02:34 PM (#328659) Subject: RE: Help: when I was in my prime - symbolism From: mousethief crystal=pure?
Alex |
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28 Oct 00 - 05:35 AM (#329096) Subject: RE: Help: when I was in my prime - symbolism From: Catrin Pure unadulterated grief! *sigh* The best songs are those which we can discuss ad infinitum without knowing which of us is 'right' or 'wrong'. Actually, we're all right because the song holds different meanings for different people. Wonderful! Cheers, Catrin |
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27 Jan 01 - 09:47 PM (#384002) Subject: RE: Help: when I was in my prime - symbolism From: Alice What is the tune for this song? |
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27 Jan 01 - 10:08 PM (#384016) Subject: RE: Help: when I was in my prime - symbolism From: Alice ..Never mind, I just found it on an old Pentangle recording. |
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06 Apr 01 - 09:00 PM (#434960) Subject: RE: Help: when I was in my prime - symbolism From: Joe Offer I got a message from somebody, suggesting that "if I'm spared young year more" is incorrect and should be "spared for one year more." Sounds reasonable to me. Any other corrections? Do we have a tune, MMario? -Joe Offer- |
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06 Apr 01 - 09:31 PM (#434969) Subject: RE: Help: when I was in my prime - symbolism From: Malcolm Douglas I'll do a midi if nobody else has an authorative source. I've been holding off on this one because I don't really like working from recordings by Revival performers who can't be bothered to say where they got their material from; I'd far rather work from a proper traditional source . Don't have it yet, though, but the tune is simple enough, and I'll include it in the enormous batch I'm preparing for poor Alan... Malcolm |
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07 Apr 01 - 12:58 PM (#435271) Subject: RE: Help: when I was in my prime - symbolism From: Noreen Yes, Joe, I've heard that line as If I live for one year more. The only other significant difference is in the penultimate verse: (which maintains the rhyming structure.) Don't have any witten source for this though. Noreen |
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07 Apr 01 - 02:14 PM (#435306) Subject: RE: Help: when I was in my prime - symbolism From: Robo Vengeance? Perhaps, but methinks not. I hear it as a regret, a case of if only I had it to do over again. She regrets the course she took, the principal on which she stood, and looking back, wishes she could have forgiven the false young man, for he had truly stolen her heart and she could love no other. Rob-o |
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07 Apr 01 - 04:46 PM (#435385) Subject: RE: Help: when I was in my prime - symbolism From: Bearheart Niamh Parsons does this on her new cd which takes its title, IN MY PRIME, from this song (it's VERY FINE) and uses the lines Noreen quotes. Lots of good songs and she includes both the lyrics and how she got the song-- in this case from the Jaqui McShee version. Her earlier cd is equally good and again she includes lyrics and notes for each song. |
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07 Apr 01 - 05:14 PM (#435399) Subject: RE: Help: when I was in my prime - symbolism From: Malcolm Douglas Whoever originally posted the text gave no indication as to where they got it, but presumably it was learnt from a Pentangle record, with a few words imperfectly remembered. Though some of the changes are of little consequence, others miss the sense or lose a rhyme, so I may as well indicate them all (including those already mentioned):
v1, line 2: There came along
v2, 2: he gave to me
v3, 2: For it fades
v4, 2: That's not
v5, 2: shall whine
v6, 1: If I'm spared for one year more
Typically for the time (1970) Pentangle didn't bother to say where they got it (though they printed the lyric), just describing it as "traditional". I haven't so far managed to locate a traditional version of The Seeds of Love that takes quite this form and melody, so I've made a midi based on the recording -with the usual caveat that it' s not a precise transcription- and will send it to Alan for the Mudcat Midi Pages; meanwhile, it may be heard via the South Riding Folk Network site: Malcolm |
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07 Apr 01 - 06:14 PM (#435419) Subject: RE: Help: when I was in my prime - symbolism From: Noreen Ok then, while you're at it... my version has I wish I was in the because he's not her young man- he's gorn orf.(I've not heard Jacqui McShee's version, but I imagine the person I heard it from, got it from Jacqui.) |
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08 Mar 06 - 06:44 AM (#1688131) Subject: RE: Help: when I was in my prime - symbolism From: GUEST,Paul L Ok, five years too late... This song appeared on an old record by Ewan MacColl and Peggy Seeger (I think it might be The Amorous Muse, 1968), with different words. That may be where Pentangle got it from. The thyme in the first verse signifies virginity. There is an extra verse about rue (as in 'meadow rue' ) signifying regret. I always understood the gardener's three roses to be offers of marriage at different parts of the year - the pink flowers too soon, the violet "is too deep a hue" are the words Peggy Seeger sang. I could never make out the final verse, and it's a long time since I heard it, but I think the words might also be different to the above - if I remember rightly she sings about planting something green? I couldn't decide whether the woman in the story was pregnant or not. The "If God grant me time and another year of grace" could be realistic, given the dangers of childbirth at that time? I think this song has also been sung by Nina Simone, but with words much more like the Pentangle ones. When I was in my prime I flourished like a vine There came along a false young man Pushed away my thyme Pushed away my thyme My thyme it is all gone I cannot plant anew And in the place where grew my thyme Is all grown up in rue Is all grown up in rue The gardener standing by Three offers he made to me The pink, the violet and red rose But I refused all three But I refused all three The pink is not for me For it flowers much too soon The violet is too deep a hue I said I'd wait till June I said I'd wait till June In June the red rose blooms But that's no flower for me For I've taken up my red, red rose And planted a willow tree And planted a willow tree For the willow trees do twist And the willow trees do twine I wish I was in that young man's arms That's won this heart of mine That's won this heart of mine But if God grant me time And another year of grace I'll plant [...] And wash that young man's face And wash that young man's face |
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08 Mar 06 - 08:55 PM (#1688714) Subject: RE: Help: when I was in my prime - symbolism From: michaelr FWIW, the fairy tale referred to above is a German one from the Brothers Grimm, "Schneeweisschen und Rosenrot" (Snow White and Rose Red). No apparent connection to the song. Cheers, Michael |
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08 Mar 06 - 11:41 PM (#1688827) Subject: RE: Help: when I was in my prime - symbolism From: Barry Finn From the Amorous Muse "The use of flower & herb symbolism in balladry & love-song is a real refinement. A spade is still a spade, but it prises the earth gently. If thyme means virginity, rue means regret, rose means passion, willow means sorrow, etc., one only need list the bouquet in proper order to describe the full journey of a young girl from joyful innocence to unhappy knowledge. Just one more of the infinite ways of narrating cause & effect, of comparing before with after. Often known under the title "Seeds of Love', or 'Rue & Thyme', this form probably sprang up in the early 1700' & has been a favourite ever since". (Source: from the singing of Enos Hartlan, South-east Passage, Nova Scotia.) When I was In My Prime (Nova Scotia) When I was in my prime I flourished like a vine, There came along a false young man who stole away my thyme Who stole away my thyme. My thyme it is all gone, I cannot plant anew, And in the place where sprung my thyme is all grown up in rue, Is all grown up in rue. The gardener standing by, three offers he made to me, The pink, the violet and red rose, but I refused all three, But I refused all three. The pink is not for me, for it flowers much too soon, And the violet is too deep a blue, I said I'd wait till June, I said I'd wait till June. In June the red rose blooms, but that's no flower for me For I've plucked up my red, red rose, and planted a willow tree, And planted a willow tree. For the willow tree do twist, and the willow tree do twine I wish I was in that young man's arms that's won this heart of mine, That's won this heart of mine. But if God gives me time and another year of grace, I'll weep a barrel of crystal tears and wash that young man's face, And wash that young man's face." Now that I've finally set up my recorded (only took about 10 years) I'll give this another listen. Can't remember it but from the thread I've grown Ruddy Red about it. Barry |
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08 Mar 06 - 11:44 PM (#1688830) Subject: RE: Help: when I was in my prime - symbolism From: Barry Finn That should read "record player". 10 yearrs to set it up I thought I better spell it right. Barry |