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26 Dec 00 - 07:21 PM (#363707) Subject: For The Ones Who Chose Canada. From: Rick Fielding I really hope this doesn't become too contentious, but it's about an issue that I've thought about often over the last 25 years. In a current thread, there's been some creep into a discussion of the American kids who fled to Canada to avoid the draft. Our friend Troll suggested he could have some grudging respect for the ones who willingly went to jail instead, and LittleHawk told a story about a well respected guitar teacher (who I was familiar with) who affected Hawk's life very positively. I knew a lot of draft evaders from living in one of the "safe houses" where many of them would stay for a few weeks before scattering across Canada. They were not "cowards" or "radicals" or any ONE thing, just as the kids who accepted their fate, or even the ones who gladly enlisted, were "warmongers" or worse. They were a rainbow of emotions, skills, intelligence (or lack of), motivations, Religious faiths.....with one thing in common. They had to make a monumental decision, at a time when family, peer, Government, and media pressure was HUGE. I think most folks on either side would agree that the Vietnam war was at least, 'controversial'. I know that some won't believe me, but after getting to know several dozen of these kids, I can tell you that their decisions were often solidified by the last film they'd seen, or the last music album to affect them, or the last "adult" that had REALLY talked to them. One young guy from Buffalo New York told me that he'd asked his Pastor for advice, and after going through "duty, responsibility, etc." the Minister broke down, and said he was so sick of telling kids to do "the right thing" when he'd completely lost faith in his own Government. He told this kid to "go home and pack, and get your ass over the border". He added that the kid couldn't put things "right" if he was dead at 19. Told him to come back in a "couple of years" and help the ones who wanted to "make the Govt. care about people more than profits". I've no idea whether that kid I talked to ever DID go back, but maybe he did. Maybe he's been a Nader's Raider, or maybe today he's a respected republican somewhere. Or maybe he's a fiftyish Canadian fisherman, or Cop, or luthier, or Teacher. Who know? My point is that, had the person he last talked to, gave him reasons to answer the draft board's call, chances are he would have followed that advice. I still know quite a few old draft dodgers, and THAT'S really what they have in common now. They're balding, ageing, family men, with as much courage as anyone else. Some are lefties, who still let "their freak flags fly" (if they've got any!) some are conservative, some wealthy, some musicians, many are teachers, some politicians, and I don't think I've ever heard ONE of them say anything disrespectful about their fellow kids who made the opposite decision so many years ago. The Canadian Govt. of course did it's level best to keep these young men out (just as it did with European Jewish refugees during WW2), but fortunately (or not, depending on your point of view) we had in Pierre Trudeau, a leader who questioned the need for wars, more than most. When it came down to it, he was still a leader who craved power, as they all do, no matter the country, but he seemed to remember that when he was a kid, he too was conflicted about the same issue...so maybe the young Americans had someone who was "privately" on their side. What I do know is that they've made good citizens, good friends, and I wanted to stick up for them a bit. Rick |
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26 Dec 00 - 07:25 PM (#363710) Subject: RE: For The Ones Who Chose Canada. From: Sorcha Thank you, Rick. I just wish a few more of the ones I knew had gone over the border......they would at least be alive now, even if they couldn't come "home"....... |
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26 Dec 00 - 07:28 PM (#363712) Subject: RE: For The Ones Who Chose Canada. From: McGrath of Harlow There were a lot of young Serbs who went into exile rather than get called-up and forced to get involved in Milosevic's vicious little wars.
I imagine you'd find some people in Serbia who'd call them cowards. Pity there weren't more of them. |
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26 Dec 00 - 08:09 PM (#363727) Subject: RE: For The Ones Who Chose Canada. From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) I was an American in uniform in WW2 and then worked in Canada. During the wasted war in Vietnam, several young men who crossed the border and were befriended by my children slept in our basement rumpus room while they sought jobs or sought enrollment in Canadian universities. I don't know what became of these particular young men, but I know or know of several professors, scientists and artists who, as young men of principle, took this step and are now Canadian professionals. Canada has benefitted from their skills. This subject has been fought over for years, and no one will change his/her mind set. |
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26 Dec 00 - 08:27 PM (#363734) Subject: RE: For The Ones Who Chose Canada. From: Banjer Over the holidays one of the shows I saw was an old 'All in The Family' This one dealt with the subject of draft dodgers. One of the guests at the Bunker's Christmas dinner was a friend of Mike's. He lived in Canada. In the course of conversation Archie discovered the young man, David had grownup in Chicago and asked why he was now living in Canada. When Archie learned he was there because of the draft he wanted to throw him out. Another guest, a friend of Archies who had recently lost his son in Vietnam asked if his opinion counted in this discussion. Of course Archie, thinking he would have an ally, welcomed the man's opinion. Well Archie shut right up when the man told David he was proud of him for standing up and defending his beliefs, and that he would be honored if he would stay and share dinner with him. Archie had to rethink his whole attitude of course, and the show sent a very strong message as usual. Always did like that show... |
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26 Dec 00 - 08:29 PM (#363736) Subject: RE: For The Ones Who Chose Canada. From: flattop I remember a few draft dodgers, one in particular I remember pacing the floor with heavy feet in a house in east Toronto while I was trying to sleep. Not eveyone was thrilled to be in Canada. A person I got to know very well came to Canada after he'd been to Vietnam twice. After being in Vietnam he felt more comfortable in Canada than in his home country. Ironically, Kennedy got the U.S. into the war and Nixon ended it. |
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26 Dec 00 - 08:29 PM (#363737) Subject: RE: For The Ones Who Chose Canada. From: Sorcha Bring it on down, friends, bring it on down.....these are our unsung heroes, for standing up for what America really means..........freedom. |
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26 Dec 00 - 08:53 PM (#363748) Subject: RE: For The Ones Who Chose Canada. From: catspaw49 For those interested in ending that war, for those wanting to effect change........Canada was never an option. If the U.S. had been forced to arrest, prosecute, and send to prison, all those who went to Canada along with the resistors which they did......Would not that increased burden and the accompanying publicity have had a far more significant effect? How would the world view a "free" country with so many political prisoners? For my brothers and sisters who fought in VietNam I have the greatest respect, whatever their reasons. For those who have fought off the demons for these many years, I have the highest admiration. For those who did not come back, some physically and some gone in spirit, I have great regret and wish their families a peace they may never know. For those in Canada......You had your reasons I'm sure. I suppose "you can't put things right if you're dead at 19," but as the old sales managers line goes, "What have you done for me lately?" Spaw |
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26 Dec 00 - 08:56 PM (#363752) Subject: RE: For The Ones Who Chose Canada. From: GUEST,John of the Hill My father served in World War II, his father, in World War I. To this day I am grateful that Viet Nam wound down before I had to make the decision between Canada or jail, and the pain it might have caused them. John |
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26 Dec 00 - 09:12 PM (#363757) Subject: RE: For The Ones Who Chose Canada. From: Sorcha Spaw, that is just the irony----how can a "free" country have political prisoners? I also have great respect for those who went......whether they wanted to or not. And for those who did not come home, and for those who came home maimed, whether in body or spirit.
I do know that I, personally could not have born VietNam. I am female, so exempt from the US draft, but I would have been one of those that committed suicide by enemy.....as soon as I could have. Look, even little leeches send me round the bend, let alone flying body parts........IF I had come home, I would have been spiritually maimed beyond redemption, as are many that I know. I do not consider it cowardice to stand up for beliefs, or to just plain admit to fear.........(Haven't we done VietNam before?.......Was it such a seminal event in all our lives that we have to keep coming back to it? Or that so many of us are so ambivilent about the whole thing? And wasn't it LB Johnson who started the whole mess?) |
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26 Dec 00 - 09:22 PM (#363766) Subject: RE: For The Ones Who Chose Canada. From: flattop Perhaps if we talk long enough, we can change the past, Sorcha. From what I read somewhere, Kennedy had committed military people to Vietnam on a small scale before LBJ took over. |
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26 Dec 00 - 09:35 PM (#363775) Subject: RE: For The Ones Who Chose Canada. From: catspaw49 Actually flats, we had been supporting the French prior to Yeah Sorcha, it was a signal event in the lives of many of us and more's the pity. I didn't mean to sound as harshly as I did toward those who went to Canada, but let's face it, as a player, you cashed in your chips when you crossed the border. Good folks I'm sure and I am not demeaning their motives, whatever they are, but they ceased to be players. They remain people though, whose entire lives were affected........as the rest of us were. Spaw |
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26 Dec 00 - 09:37 PM (#363778) Subject: RE: For The Ones Who Chose Canada. From: catspaw49 That'd be "prior to 1954"...........gotta' pruufreed bitter nixt tome. Spaw |
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26 Dec 00 - 09:42 PM (#363780) Subject: RE: For The Ones Who Chose Canada. From: Sorcha Gotta think about "ceased to be players", spaw. Not sure they did.....but I have to think about what I mean. Maybe they just moved the board.......I know there have been times in my life when I wished I could just stop the play....and I am not brave enough. (That does not necessarily mean suicide...even tho I have thought about that, and dismissed it as not an option.) |
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26 Dec 00 - 10:05 PM (#363789) Subject: RE: For The Ones Who Chose Canada. From: flattop Yeah, like a lot of Canadian and Americans read their constitutions? Shame on those Vietnamese. And I suppose most Amercians get Ben Franklin's little joke that starts, 'We hold these truths to be self-evident...' I did read somewhere, perhaps in the writings of Gore Vidal who was a Kennedy or Jackie relative and speech writer in the Kennedy administration, that Kennedy had started the Vietnam program that left Johnson on the hook. Johnson just increased the manpower. |
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26 Dec 00 - 10:55 PM (#363822) Subject: RE: For The Ones Who Chose Canada. From: Ebbie "Kennedy got us into the war and Nixon ended it"- True, but how misleadingly simplistic. Kennedy, I understand, had sent 'military advisors'. When LBJ took over, at that point the whole thing could have, should have been rethought. Nixon got us out...? One reason, I believe, that Nixon won the presidency in the first place is that he said he had a plan. Some plan. Before he got finished, before he 'saved' Viet Nam villages by destroying them, he had extended the war into neighboring countries. It was a totally illegal action and one for which he was never brought to account. Because of that whole era, I learned to be wary for all time of the indefensible concept of 'throwing good money after bad', of the idea that you can't stop now because you've lost too much already. Carter formally granting amnesty to the defectors was about as clear an acknowledgment of previous governmental misjudgment as one could expect from any president. Ebbie
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26 Dec 00 - 10:55 PM (#363823) Subject: RE: For The Ones Who Chose Canada. From: Rick Fielding Paw makes a good point about those who "ceased to be players". My own personal hero, Pete Seeger faced them (the red-baiters) toe to toe and defied them to jail him. (he really did) He got off on a technicality, but just reading about how he was "preparing his family" for his incarceration (which could have been several years) and how conflicted it made them, was chilling. They were NOT saying "go do your time Pete", we'll get by somehow. Took a lot of convincing apparently by his lawyers to convince HIM to drop it. A substantial number of draft evaders DID return home (don't know the percentage) so I guess they did become "players" again. But just for the moment, think back a few weeks when a lot of us were furious at the Nader supporters for "losing" the election for Gore. Surely if you think the system REALLY needs overhauling you'd BE one of those "players", but it would seem that there are too many things "right" with America for the mainstream to allow any substantial change to the things that are "wrong". ...But these good folks, who's motives were as different and personal as those who went to jail or went to war, most certainly ARE players...just in a different league. Just thought of a bit of an oddball scenario. Suppose you're one of those folks who absolutely REVILED Bill Clinton, you know, the ones who think he's the worst President who ever lived, his wife's a dyke, they murdered Vince Foster etc. etc. You're drafted to fight in an overseas jungle, and it appears obvious to you that your leader is an absolute scoundrel. You might go to jail for your beliefs....but you might figure that the Government who RUNS those jails is NOT worth it. Thirty years ago a lot of kids DID feel that way about their Government, and NOT just the party in power. Rick |
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26 Dec 00 - 11:24 PM (#363833) Subject: RE: For The Ones Who Chose Canada. From: flattop Ebbie, We seem to agree that both LBJ and Nixon escalated the war. Nixon had the guts to admit the futility of the effort and end it. Johnson clearly understood what a mess he was in but he didn't take steps to end it. Whatever else he did, Nixon ended the war. |
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26 Dec 00 - 11:28 PM (#363835) Subject: RE: For The Ones Who Chose Canada. From: catspaw49 Would that be the CFL Rick? I don't know if anyone made a decision because of Nixon or Johnson, but I'd like to know. Also, I think you're in a better position to tell us what the general feeling was than I am regarding the motives of those in Canada. Was the general feeling one that the government was not worth it? Its an interesting point because that was the stated idea of several I knew at that time. It wasn't a decision to be made lightly then.....the idea of never going back to the States, to family and friends. Then again, some people didn't like the government OR Nixon but went ahead with their duty as they saw it to be and wound up in VietNam. We may be a world society, but some love of country probably is stuck down there in all of us. Perhaps those who crossed the border had a little less......I have no idea. Back then I was as American as you got. For whatever made the place really suck (and the government was a start) it was still home and I felt a duty to it. Duty in my case took on a different meaning, but it was still a problem that stemmed from somewhere I loved and had not given up on. I guess I get tied up with feelings at times like this. Its like OK gang, let's start a World Government or put a United Nations type organization in control. What happens when things go wrong? Where do the ones who crossed the border go off to in that case? "This new government isn't worth it so I'll check out on this too." I'm obviously asking if those who went to Canada have anything worth their efforts. Just curious. Spaw |
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26 Dec 00 - 11:29 PM (#363836) Subject: RE: For The Ones Who Chose Canada. From: Joe Offer I didn't believe in the Vietnam war, so I did what I consider to be the ultimate draft dodge - I enlisted, and got a guarantee of assignment to Germany. When my draft notice came, they couldn't touch me - because I was in Basic Combat Training. So, I got training as German linguist and two years in Germany. Maybe it would have been more heroic and principled to go to jail or to Canada, but I don't really think the Powers That Be would have paid any attention to my "heroism." If a 20-year-old kid doesn't believe in a war, then he shouldn't fight it; and he should find his way out of it any way he can - but I don't think he should have to make a martyr of himself in the process. I admire those who went to jail or to Canada, but I'm glad I didn't do it. There are those who say awful things about those who opposed or evaded the war. They see "duty" and "obedience" and "loyalty" and "authority" as supreme values. I don't. -Joe Offer- |
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26 Dec 00 - 11:32 PM (#363838) Subject: RE: For The Ones Who Chose Canada. From: Sorcha That's it Rick. They were playing in a different league. They said "My rules don't equal your rules", and I was one of those "baddies" that voted for Nader...had to be a write in in Wyoming, and it didn't make a damn bit of difference here......Wyoming's Electoral College votes always go to the Republican Party (Bush, this time), but maybe someday there will be enough of us to make a difference......... |
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26 Dec 00 - 11:53 PM (#363841) Subject: RE: For The Ones Who Chose Canada. From: Liam's Brother Many young men at the time (and I'm not speaking about the most motivated ethically or politically) felt they had a choice between losing their life or ruining their life. Anything from draft resistance to less than honorable discharge was thought to mean never being able to get a job again. In the States nowadays you can get practically anything written on your license plate if you pay for it... favorite team, save the bay, I love my dog, etc. I was driving earlier today behind a guy who had "Veteran" license plates. He had a newer car so Veteran wasn't a reference to the age of his automobile. For many years, I have seen POW and Disabled Veteran plates. This just said Veteran. I started wondering whether I could get Veteran plates and whether that might weigh in my favor to help me get out of a possible traffic or parking ticket. An ignoble thought? Maybe not. Since the end of the Vietnam War, I cannot think of one job application that wanted to know what I did in a military way. I can't recall anyone younger than me ever asking whether I was ever in the service. Getting away with the occasional parking ticket would never make up for the 2 years I spent making $60 - $90 a month... or maybe I've seen so few Veteran license plates because you get tickets just the same! |
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27 Dec 00 - 12:07 AM (#363847) Subject: RE: For The Ones Who Chose Canada. From: catspaw49 Truly a good point Dan! That was a legit fear, but basically, no one has ever asked me squat since. Ohio has a lot of plates for everything and since you've brought it up, I'll have to check if I can get Complete Screw Up on mine. If we could get other states to go along, this might be a good way of raising money for the Neil Young Center for the Terminally Screwed! Spaw |
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27 Dec 00 - 12:25 AM (#363854) Subject: RE: For The Ones Who Chose Canada. From: Jeri I feel completely unable to judge most of the decisions other people make. I don't know whether those who fled to Canada gave up their family, friends, way of life, job, most worldy possessions, etc because they were too scared to stay here and make a stand or because they believed they shouldn't have to. I do know that some people felt they shouldn't have to make a decision between jail and war, and that any government that would force them to make that decision wasn't worth the fight. I can't remember hearing anyone discussing defectors from the former Soviet Union say they should have stayed and made a stand. Maybe those who headed for Canada felt like they were in a similar sort of situation. I know it's not the same thing, but where do we draw the line between acceptable and unacceptable defection? |
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27 Dec 00 - 01:05 AM (#363860) Subject: RE: For The Ones Who Chose Canada. From: catspaw49 Hell Jeri, who knows? I think some of the comparisons are apples and oranges and who can say what to do in a situation they have never known? I can't judge a Soviet defector. I can't judge one person's decision because I' not them. Some put a lot of thought into decisions, some don't. Maybe I'm just in a piss poor mood tonight and I don't need to have this thread keeping me awake and thinking. Truth is we all judge each other to some degree. Its about unavoidable I think. On that basis I have an opinion as does everyone else. Some would say that anyone who wasn't behind the war was a coward or an idiot or unpatriotic. Others would argue that those who went were dupes or idiots or blind to reality. If you went to Canada you were a chickenshit and if you went to jail you were a hopeless idealist or something. The whole damn thing was nuts. I said it awhile back and I keep saying it.......... We were a generation raised by parents who fought in WWII and who did what they believed. We were taught to do the same....what we believed. Even Davy Crockett through Walt Disney said, "A man's gotta' do what he thinks is right." When VietNam came along we were asked to do what was right, but the world had changed and as we moved onto the playing board, all the sqaures which had always been black or white were varying shades of gray that kept on changing. We moved about the board as pawns in someone elses game, but we moved by the best lights we could muster at the time. These many years later, we are all in our 50's and wondering what the hell it was about. Some never came back either physically or mentally, some are living in personal hells, some have moved on after great turmoil and soul searching, some question the government that would then or now ask their young people to make the decisions we made for the reasons they gave. For many of us it was a signal event and our lives are forever colored by what we did and what we believed. It was NOT WWII and the areas of doubt affected us all. Read the responses in the threads we run and you'll see some are still confused, some are in denial, some are looking for peace.................We owe it to the children we have not to let that happen again. Yet the best we can offer is the same our parents gave us and that is for the strength to have the courage of their convictions. The hell with this........Let's talk about New Years!!! Spaw |
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27 Dec 00 - 01:28 AM (#363866) Subject: RE: For The Ones Who Chose Canada. From: Seamus Kennedy I had my 22 and 19 year-old sons home from college for Christmas. It was great! Why can they both be drafted and go fight to sell Coca-Cola to wondrous and different lands, get married, vote, own homes, and only one of them can (legally) have a drink with his old man over the Holidays? Seamus |
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27 Dec 00 - 01:36 AM (#363871) Subject: RE: For The Ones Who Chose Canada. From: catspaw49 Because the government KNOWS you Seamus, and they will only allow you to corrupt one at a time. Spaw |
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27 Dec 00 - 07:20 AM (#363910) Subject: RE: For The Ones Who Chose Canada. From: mkebenn I was in the same place as Guest John, son of a WWII vet, grandson of a WWI vet. As much as I despised the war, I couldn't hurt my father like that. Had a good friend in the same position. When the call came, we answered. I failed my physical, he passed. I'm talkin to you, he lasted three months...Mike Bennett |
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27 Dec 00 - 09:06 AM (#363928) Subject: RE: For The Ones Who Chose Canada. From: Ribbit We all did what we felt was necessary at the time. I did four years in the navy. At least 50% of the males in college at that time were there avoiding the draft. I was one of them. Friends went and did not return and I mourn them to this day. Sure this is uncomfortable to talk about and remember but maybe someday... All that we can pray for is that no one's children will ever be faced with these excruciating decisions our generation was forced to make. Thom M. |
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27 Dec 00 - 09:21 AM (#363935) Subject: RE: For The Ones Who Chose Canada. From: McGrath of Harlow Well you've got a draft dodger for a new "president" now, even if he didn't actually get elected to the job. And one who believed in the war too, for other people.
So do people really think those young Serbians were wrong to get out? |
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27 Dec 00 - 09:29 AM (#363942) Subject: RE: For The Ones Who Chose Canada. From: sophocleese I was a child in Canada during Viet Nam and I met a few draft dodgers. I grew up as a Quaker and always during times of war we get more people asking about Quakers (What do they do what do they mean etc). Many quakers would shelter draft dodgers, we also sheltered a defecting Czechoslovakian. I was at the wedding of one draft dodger, a very nice gentle man and a good potter. He had kids in Canada and was a good father. He became a player on a different board which allowed him greater use of his real talents. As a quaker I have great respect for Conscientious Objecters and draft dodgers. We all of us have duties to our counries but we also have duties to other people and to our beliefs. When they come in conflict with each other then we each decide which is the paramount duty. |
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27 Dec 00 - 09:39 AM (#363947) Subject: RE: For The Ones Who Chose Canada. From: Liam's Brother I'm very happy the whole ugly, devisive thing is over... for us and, more so, for the Vietnamese... after all, it happened there. Having said that, I don't need to spend time reflecting on guys who ran away or who studied for unneeded degrees. I have absolutely nothing against them but I feel that, if you did your time in the service or in jail, that was memorable and manly. On the other side of the coin, my cousin, Paddy, was drafted 9 months after he arrived in the U.S. He lost his leg and he's since lost his sight. When the medics came to care for him, him told them to see to the guys who were hurt more badly. 100 years earlier, immigrants from Ireland, Germany, Canada and many other countries acted the same way during the Civil War. |
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27 Dec 00 - 10:11 AM (#363959) Subject: RE: For The Ones Who Chose Canada. From: Jeri "By the Hush," Dan. I had no idea the same thing happened in modern times. Spaw, auntie Jeri here. You said you wanted to talk about New Year's, so I'm suggesting a plan of action for you. ;-) Next time you find yourself awake in the wee hours, dig out that old word processor program and write the damned play! It begins with a narrator, off stage..."We were a generation raised by parents who fought in WWII and who did what they believed. We were taught to do the same....what we believed..." Jeri - You can't beat this offer of friendship and cyberhugs for 2001!!! ACT NOW and get a FREE opinion with each encounter!!! |
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27 Dec 00 - 10:52 AM (#363971) Subject: RE: For The Ones Who Chose Canada. From: McGrath of Harlow There were people who followed their consciences and went into the armed forces. And there were people who followed their consciences and refused to go into the armed forces.
And there were people who ignored their consciences and went into the armed forces, and people who ignored their consciences and avoided going into the armed forces.
All wars are like that. |
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27 Dec 00 - 12:57 PM (#364030) Subject: RE: For The Ones Who Chose Canada. From: GUEST,Russ I had "passed" the physical (in spite of a history of asthma), was graded 1A (choice), and my wife and I were preparing to leave for Canada the day after my college graduation. Then I heard that my hometown was so desperate for teachers that the local draft board had worked a deal with the local school board. A teaching job guaranteed an occupational deferment. I have never regretted choosing high school teaching. Never been ashamed of it either. I'll always wonder what life as a Canadian would have been like. |
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27 Dec 00 - 01:20 PM (#364042) Subject: RE: For The Ones Who Chose Canada. From: NightWing Jeri, For your play, five characters:
1) One who followed his conscience and went to 'Nam * The draft-dodging character from James Michener's 1971 novel, The Drifters Soliloquies [sp?] from each describing his reasons for why he believed what he believed and did what he did. Interaction between the characters Just a thought
BB, |
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27 Dec 00 - 02:14 PM (#364059) Subject: RE: For The Ones Who Chose Canada. From: Rick Fielding Thanks for the intelligent discussion folks. You have no idea how hesitant I was about putting a controversial thread in today's Mudcat. (lots of them when I came aboard 3 years ago) But I've seen a bit of a turn lately where ideas and emotions are a bit more balanced. Paw asks about whether the "new" Canadians found THIS Government worth it. One of the reasons that I tried to relate OTHERS' stories, rather than give my own opinions is that I may be the absolute worst person to have objective opinions on Governments' motives. I would give my life (or go to prison) for Heather only. If we had a family of 10, the same thing would apply. The Canadian Hierarchy is not one bit better than the American Hierarchy, (or the Russian or chinese or Serbian etc.) There are men and women of honour of course, scattered through ALL governments......but EVERYONE of them FOUGHT to achieve power. I ATTEMPT to treat them as if they don't exist in my life. Tricky to do unless you wanna be a hermit, but I've done my best. My loyalties are to family and friends ONLY. No Gods, no Religions, no National anthems, no Constitutions. NOTHING created by powerful guys gettin' together (with or without cigars) to keep their version of the status quo together. Oh, I forgot...I used to have great loyalty to The New York Yankees, and for the last 20 years, to the Toronto Bluejays. (but I wouldn't go to jail for them even if they DID sign some pitching!) I'm very glad that most folks DON'T think like me, and I suspect that some of the draft evaders found a more humane Government here, some found almost no difference, some didn't give a shit, some BECAME part of the Govt. Some got rich and joined the Conservative party, and some learned to play guitar. Rick |
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27 Dec 00 - 02:38 PM (#364067) Subject: RE: For The Ones Who Chose Canada. From: annamill I wish every single person who went to Vietnam had run to Canada or anywhere safe. I would be the first to die for "MY COUNTRY's" freedom, but not for someone as bad as the proposed enemy in that war. Isinhower(sp) signed the agreement with South Vietnam to send "advisors" if needed. The other presidents just sent our boys to their useless deaths. Nixon ended the war by excalating the number of men over there, couldn't win, so brought what was left back. Let's talk about how our men fragged their officers at the end. Oh, for *** sakes! Don't get me started!! Love (and hurtin'), annamill
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27 Dec 00 - 02:57 PM (#364074) Subject: RE: For The Ones Who Chose Canada. From: Little Hawk This thread has put me through the emotional wringer. No other issue in my life affected me so much as the war in Vietnam, and reading all this has brought it back sharp and clear. I was living in New York State (having emigrated from Canada at age 10 with my familay) from 1958 to 1969, through some of the most tumultuous years of protest against that war. My heroes were all profoundly against American intervention in Vietman, and so was I. Even though I was a Canadian, my guidance counselour informed me that I was required to register for the draft, because I had a green card. Being a person (at that age) who respected authority and ALWAYS did exactly what I was told to do, I followed his instructions and registered!!! Would I do so now? Hell, no!!! In due course I received their stinking draft card. 2 years later I moved back to Canada and mailed them the draft card AND the green card, saying I didn't need them anymore. They had the collossal nerve to mail the draft card BACK to me, saying that once you were registered with the Selective Service you were registered for life, and that if I were to re-emigrate to the States, then I would again be liable for induction. I was tempted to send them a letter saying that if I were ever inducted and sent to Vietnam I would join the other side at the first opportunity, but I thought better of it, and simply ripped up the draft card instead and flushed it down the toilet. I never heard from the Selective Service again, and they can go screw themselves as far as I'm concerned. I'm sure that many of those who did serve had noble motives of duty, honour, and patriotism. I will not badmouth them for it. Those who resisted the war also had noble ideals of duty, honour and patriotism. I belive that duty to the whole human race supercedes duty to a specific government. The American government was wrong to involve itself in Vietnam. It was wrong to assist the French in maintaining a colony there, wrong to support Diem, wrong to send foreign troops into a civil war in a small Asian country. The men who made those decisions were not evil or demonic men, they were men who saw the world divided into an epic battle between Communism (the "evil empire") and democracy. Their view of the world was simplistic. It had little relevance in Vietnam, which was fighting to achieve national sovereignty and end foreign occupation, by the French, then the Japanese, then the French again, then the Americans. Ho Chi Minh and George Washington had more than a few things in common, and they were both patriots. I want to thank all those who contributed to this thread, whether or not we agree on this or that point. Each one of us tries to do what is right. I know that. Peace be with you, - LH |
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27 Dec 00 - 03:16 PM (#364078) Subject: RE: For The Ones Who Chose Canada. From: Amos The call to arms cannot always be ignored. I would hope that I would have "jined up" in 1938. Or in 1918 -- dunno. Maybe in 1862-4 as well. I like to believe that I would have and did, in the War of Independence. But you need (unless you are bent) some deep and compelling reason to take up weapons against human beings who have the same dynamic needs and concerns as you do, no matter where their cheekbones are. In 1968-9, no-one presented me with such a rationale and I had been exposed to enough McCarthyism red-scares to treat that issue with deep skepticism. I do not believe you should ever place your whole life at the disposal of another's persuasion, no matter what hat he or she is wearing. And the issues that faced us in 1968 were in no manner enough, to me, to inspire me to join a war and take up killing for a living. So I did not. I regret not having been there to possibly save a few lives (of course it would have been by taking a few other lives) before I caught my piece of hot led and bled to death in a wet rice field. But on the whole I am entirely at peace with my choice because I believe--I am sure of it -- that I did more good by staying than I could have done by going. A |
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27 Dec 00 - 04:05 PM (#364096) Subject: RE: For The Ones Who Chose Canada. From: Mike Regenstreif Rick, I believe you were mistaken in your opening post when you wrote: "The Canadian Govt. of course did it's level best to keep these young men out (just as it did with European Jewish refugees during WW2)." In fact, the Canadian Governmnets of the Vietnam War era, under Prime Ministers Pearson and Trudeau, were quite welcoming to draft resistors and, as well, to deserters. Landed Immigrant status was easy to get and many, like my friend Jesse Winchester, became citizens and stayed permanently. The Yellow Door, the Montreal folk club at which I did my basic training (pun intended) 30 or so years ago, also served as the office and drop-in centre of the local committee to aid draft evaders and deserters, so I got to know many. Leaving home and family behind on a matter of conscience, without knowing if they'd ever be able to return, was not something that was done lightly by most. For many, coming to Canada was an act of courage. Mike Regenstreif
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27 Dec 00 - 04:40 PM (#364127) Subject: RE: For The Ones Who Chose Canada. From: McGrath of Harlow A sixth character for Nightwing would have been someone who supported the war, but didn't fancy going himself - but he didn't need to go to Canada, because his daddy was able to get him a cushy number with the National Guard Air Force which didn't even require him to turn up regularly. |
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27 Dec 00 - 04:48 PM (#364139) Subject: RE: For The Ones Who Chose Canada. From: GUEST,ladybird66 My parents just bought a new book on the topic: _Hell No We Won't Go: Vietnam Draft Resistors in Canada_ by Alan Haig-Brown. The author's father Roderick was the kind of writer they name awards after, and Alan is now a lively and experienced writer himself.
His book is made up from interviews of 20 of the draft dodgers who stayed here, about their decisions and their stories. See
By the way, Canada profited from an influx of educated, hard-working, law-abiding immigrants in your Civil War, too. They were called United Empire Loyalists. Similarly, both our countries gained enormously from the talents of European refugees from WWII. England experienced social and economic growth following immigrations of French and Flemish protestants during the wars of religion on the Continent, and so on. |
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27 Dec 00 - 05:15 PM (#364149) Subject: RE: For The Ones Who Chose Canada. From: McGrath of Harlow "Canada profited from an influx of educated, hard-working, law-abiding immigrants in your Civil War" - that would have been the first Civil War, the one that started in 1776. (Flora MacDonald of Bonnie Prince Charlie fame was one of them).
I believe there were also a fair few at the time of the second Civil War in the 1860s. |
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27 Dec 00 - 05:15 PM (#364150) Subject: RE: For The Ones Who Chose Canada. From: GUEST,John Leeder Minor point of fact, Ladybird: The United Empire Loyalists were refugees from the American Revolution, not the U.S. Civil War (although the Revolution was in fact a kind of civil war itself). Many of the people who emigrated to Canada from whatever country (many of my own forebears among them) came to avoid getting involved in wars they didn't believe in, or because they backed the wrong side and faced persecution for it. Also, I think Mike Regenstreif is correct that the Canadian government, to its credit, didn't make it particularly difficult for draft evaders to come to Canada. In fact, Canada didn't really support the war at all, and drew criticism from the U.S. government for it. Some Canadians fought for the U.S., but only as private citizens, with no encouragement from their government. A number of my close friends, many of them musicians, came to Canada via the draft evasion route. I think the U.S.'s loss was our gain. |
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27 Dec 00 - 05:26 PM (#364158) Subject: RE: For The Ones Who Chose Canada. From: McGrath of Harlow One major reason a lot of people emigrated to the USA from places like Germany and France back in the 19th century was to avoid the draft in their own countries of origin. |
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27 Dec 00 - 05:55 PM (#364173) Subject: RE: For The Ones Who Chose Canada. From: Rick Fielding I rescind my opening statement Mike. At the time it SEEMED like ALL the authorities were very anti-draft evader. Probably just my "us against them" attitudes of the time. Thanks for pointing it out. Rick Since this thread was started because of a discussion Troll and INOBU were having, I'm sorry they haven't given their thoughts here. |
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27 Dec 00 - 06:00 PM (#364175) Subject: RE: For The Ones Who Chose Canada. From: Liam's Brother McGrath of Harlow, many Tories fled or were driven to Canada during and after the Revolutionary War. New York City was occupied by British forces during most of the War (with many instances of brutal treatment) and Tories were not very welcome afterwards. You would be interested to read Irish Green & Union Blue: The Civil War Letters of Peter Welsh. Peter Welsh was born in Charlottetown, Prince Edward's Island, Canada and immigrated to the United States. He married in Boston and enlisted in a regiment of Meagher's Irish Brigade of the Union Army. Having survived 3 very hard battles in which the Brigade was chewed up horribly (Antietam, Fredericksburg and Gettysburg), he re-enlisted in 1863. He did not make it through to the end and he is buried in New York City. I assure you that there are people who leap into the cauldron as well as out of it.
All the best, |
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27 Dec 00 - 06:24 PM (#364199) Subject: RE: For The Ones Who Chose Canada. From: little john cameron Rick,if ye can remember ah lived in that "safe hoose"as weel.Ah mind o a young fellah wha did 2tours in Viet Nam an then deserted.Ah went wi him tae the border an watched as he broke his heart because he couldnae gae hame again.He wis a marine tae.Every noo an again he wid pit on his uniform an get drunk.When you an i came back fae Montreal he wis gone.Ah wonder where he went? ljc |
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27 Dec 00 - 06:29 PM (#364204) Subject: RE: For The Ones Who Chose Canada. From: catspaw49 You are really "crankin" on this thread Dan. The history of the Irish Brigade is well worth the retelling and shows that things can be worth it, it just depends on the "things." I'd also like to change the thought process a bit as some of us looked at the situation then and other situations too, not as something worth dying for, but was and is it something worth killing for? That was at the heart of my thinking then and still remains so today. I am not necessarily a pacifist, though I admire many. However, if you have a gun and I have a gun and we're stalking each other, rest assured I am going to do my damndest to kill you first. This is what young people are asked to do in any war. I came to the belief that there was nothing worth killing for about VietNam. Others came to a similar realization after they were there and hence the abundant cases of post traumatic stress. Others wars are different and each one must be decided by the people involved.....Is it worth killing for? If you are going to put me in the situation of killing someone else before they kill me, you better have a damn good reason so I can live with myself afterwards. When I refused to play and was arrested, the sentences were running at 5 years, out in about 3. By the time I was sentenced, it was down to 3 years and out in 18 months. After serving 7 months at Petersburg, it was reduced to 15 months and out in 6, so I was paroled. A short time later, they were down to a year and out in 3-6 months. We were a pain in the ass to the government! But if more had done it, could they have withstood the pain? THIS is why I have a problem with those who left. NIGHT WING and others..........The play Jeri refers to is one we have bantered about for quite awhile. You don't need any made up characters, the words and the people are right here at the 'Cat. About two years ago we ran the first of several threads on this subject and they are pretty much classics. Every view you could want and the words to go with them are live with our members and are written in this forum. Just awhile back, I wrote the following post: ********************************************************* Almost two years ago in another VietNam thread, we began to see the broad experiences of the times that were living right here at the 'Cat. From the words of myself and others, there is a cross section of experiences, all deeply felt, that encompasses the American experience of VietNam. More players have entered the scene since and many of us have repeatedly told our stories. Now, with most of us at the half-century mark age range, we have come together in a strange feeling of companionship. Some are still bitter in many ways, but most are mellowed and saddened and want to remember lest others forget. Some are still in that place, that time, and can never move on because of it. Some have moved on and wish only to let it become history. Most are somewhere in between in a sort of no-man's land because those times and that war colored our lives in a way we cannot escape. Most of us here came from essentially middle class, middle America, the offspring of parents who had fought and worked hard in the cause of a clearly defined war. We watched John Wayne in "Sands of Iwo Jima" and listened to the stories of the adults who had been there. We learned of heroes and poltroons and we believed in the sacrifices made in the name of freedom. One day we began to hear of a place where we too would be tested and honored. At 18 or so we were the product of Davy Crockett and Ira Hayes. But it was a different time, the world had changed, the news told of strange things which didn't mesh with what we thought we knew. Realizations came at different times and in different ways to different people, and suddenly, we were no longer kids. We were forced to become adults and not always thinking ones. No matter where you stood, you were still a pawn in someone's game and the damned thing was, you were still trying to figure out the squares on the board. And what was the problem with those damn squares anyway? They were supposed to be black or white weren't they? They used to be! Now, somehow they had all changed to various and varying shades of gray. We moved about as best we could and by the best lights we could muster. And so it was............... Ten people sit on a blackened stage. Above and behind them play the classic home movie clips of a 50's childhood. As the movies play, a single spot lights each as they tell a similar story that melds together almost as one so you can see these are all the same folks, from the same places, from the same history, in the same time. The movie carries on to teen clips and the story begins to unfold. Each of the ten begins to alternately tell their tale in that time. The movie shows clips of the late 60's, the war in both heroic and tragic scenes, the protests back home.....an entire panorama of the times as each story unfolds. Each of stories comes from the words written here and the characters on stage include soldiers, male and female, who came into the war with different ideas and out of the war with varying outcomes, a man who didn't have to go because of the draft lottery and has mixed emotions, a man who went to jail for refusing induction, a girlfriend left behind.........Ten stories that show well the result. And ten people now grown old who are willing to let it go, yet they cannot forget.........bonded forever from the times in which they lived. ********************************************************* Its all here Night Wing....every point of view. Research some of the previous threads and you'll find someone from every conceivable angle. Spaw |
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27 Dec 00 - 06:48 PM (#364219) Subject: RE: For The Ones Who Chose Canada. From: katlaughing Write the damn play, Spaw, please? It's important and not just for the Pulitzer I am sure you'd get! |
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27 Dec 00 - 08:07 PM (#364269) Subject: RE: For The Ones Who Chose Canada. From: McGrath of Harlow Write it, yes.
But there's another set of voices without which the story is less than half complete. The voices of the people of Vietnam, those on both sides and those stuck in the middle, those who stayed and those who went into exile. Because they were the main victims of it all.
And their's is a different story, and they'd need to tell it. Maybe having empty chairs reserved for them would be the only way to do it. But whatever, they should never be set aside on the margin, as if they were just bit players in a primarily American tragedy.
(Yes, I know Liam, there were Irish on both sides in both Civil Wars. As there have been in too many wars.)
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28 Dec 00 - 12:31 AM (#364387) Subject: RE: For The Ones Who Chose Canada. From: catspaw49 I understand your point Mac, but they are two different stories. And as you say, only they can tell theirs. Spaw |
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28 Dec 00 - 06:10 AM (#364450) Subject: RE: For The Ones Who Chose Canada. From: McGrath of Harlow Different but inseparable. Here in Harlow we've probably got more Vietnamese than we have Americans, and we weren't even in the war.
Separate stories, but you couldn't tell the story of the West without recognising that the Native Americans were at the centre of it all, even if their voices aren't heard. |
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28 Dec 00 - 10:34 AM (#364534) Subject: RE: For The Ones Who Chose Canada. From: Little Hawk Spaw - My absolute congratulations to you. You are a remarkable man. I now understand why you're troubled about the ones who left the USA, because you had the guts to actually go to jail to make your point about that war. I think either leaving or staying was a valid way to protest, and everybody had to decide for themselves about that, but I have profound admiration for what you did. And your play is a very, very good idea. Little Hawk salutes you. A general comment: I don't think that any government anywhere EVER has the right to draft its citizens. If people are not willing to fight of their own free will, then the war is not worth fighting (for them) and they have a perfect right not to go. That's the way it was, BTW, among North American Indians...those who thought it was a good idea to fight did. Those who didn't went deer hunting or something instead. Each man decided for himself. All their fighters were volunteers. That's when it really was "the land of the free and the home of the brave". Governments are supposed to serve the people, not OWN them. When a government owns its people they are slaves. - LH |
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28 Dec 00 - 11:06 AM (#364555) Subject: RE: For The Ones Who Chose Canada. From: annamill I love Mudcat! |
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29 Dec 00 - 12:19 AM (#364996) Subject: RE: For The Ones Who Chose Canada. From: Rick Fielding Peter T's guitar lesson stretched into several hours tonight as we discussed this whole question. I'd forgotten that he'd spent quite a bit of time living in the States . But for the ultimate thread creep.....he gave me one of the best Christmas presents i've received in many a moon. A CD of a HOUSE CONCERT Leadbelly gave in Minnesota in 1948! Rick |
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29 Dec 00 - 12:59 AM (#365002) Subject: RE: For The Ones Who Chose Canada. From: Sorcha Oh. Thank you Rick, for de fusing this one......and Pat...ah hell, never mind, I'll PM. I'll be damned---an intelligent discussion without personal acriomy......Welcome Back, MudCat. |
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29 Dec 00 - 10:40 AM (#365077) Subject: RE: For The Ones Who Chose Canada. From: Peter T. As Rick said, we talked about this in true Mudcat form last night. I was a teenage Canadian on an Air Force base in a small Missouri town in the late 60's, and I watched all this happening from my safe perch, watched my friends just beginning to sign up or agonise, and we argued it out, about when the arguing hit the Middle West. And some went, including my best friend, who got himself killed, the stupid bastard (I am coming around to forgiving him for getting himself killed). And then I came back to Canada, and about the first people I met were the early draft dodgers, and I met lots over the next few years, and all I can think about now is how young and ignorant everyone was, and (as Rick says) how little everyone had to go on to make such terrifying choices for their lives. I remember being impressed by the gravity of their situation, and thinking that all of those caught up in the decision-making process were being pushed into being grownups. In some ways, reflecting on the history of the subsequent 30 plus years, we can see that the image of the late 60s is completely misleading -- all that childlike flowerpower stuff. If adulthood is the result of making serious decisions and living with them, then they were adults, and their masters, children. In fact, they were the last adults we have seen since. America has returned into being the usual pack of careless juvenile delinquents (check out the outgoing and incoming administrations).
I think it is also important to say (as a Canadian) that for Americans to give up living in America was a terrible thing to have to do. America is a dream, everyone is inoculated with it early on, and to turn your back on it requires immense courage and heartache. My experience with draft dodgers was that (except for a druggie or two) they were haunted by their own supposed betrayal of their deepest dream, and could only live with it by saying that their country had betrayed them first. That may have been a cheap argument, but the sentiment betrayed their terrible sense of loss. For many Americans, being exiled is at least as bad as being locked in a jail. I don't trivialize being locked in a jail. |
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29 Dec 00 - 11:09 AM (#365091) Subject: RE: For The Ones Who Chose Canada. From: catspaw49 Peter, once in a great while I hit upon something that fits the situation. Its rare I know, but it does happen. We were all just kids. The checkerboard analogy fits. ......from previous posts: Realizations came at different times and in different ways to different people, and suddenly, we were no longer kids. We were forced to become adults and not always thinking ones. No matter where you stood, you were still a pawn in someone's game and the damned thing was, you were still trying to figure out the squares on the board. And what was the problem with those damn squares anyway? They were supposed to be black or white weren't they? They used to be! Now, somehow they had all changed to various and varying shades of gray. We moved about as best we could and by the best lights we could muster. NO decision was easy. Spaw
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29 Dec 00 - 11:39 AM (#365102) Subject: RE: For The Ones Who Chose Canada. From: Steve Latimer I am a 41 year old Canadian. Although I was aware of the Vietnam war and the Draft Dodgers I was really too young to know any personally. We had a fairly young American Counsellor when I was in High School. It was rumoured that he was a Draft Dodger (he probably was) and there was much whispering behind his back. We also had a Basketball coach who had defected from the U.S.S.R., had played for many years on their National team and was thought of as a hero for leaving all he had behind to come to Canada. I don't see a lot of difference in their choices. I'm also curious. When Carter granted Amnesty, how many people actually returned to the U.S. as opposed to making Canada their home? I'm also damn glad to have been born in a country that still offers people the choice of a new life. |
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29 Dec 00 - 11:43 AM (#365104) Subject: RE: For The Ones Who Chose Canada. From: Peter T. Funny that the metaphor for some is chess, and for others it was dominos (rigid slabs falling eventually on Topeka). Would make a nice moment in the play that YOU ARE GOING TO WRITE OVER THE NEXT YEAR!! (I tend to go for the croquet match in Alice when things get weird myself, however).....yours, Peter T. |
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29 Dec 00 - 12:23 PM (#365120) Subject: RE: For The Ones Who Chose Canada. From: Amergin Hey, Spaw, I have an idea for your play (write it goddamnit!!!!). Do some research on stories of the dodgers who went up north and tell their stories through letters.... Amergin |
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29 Dec 00 - 09:23 PM (#365406) Subject: RE: For The Ones Who Chose Canada. From: Uncle Jaque Interesting, deep, and reflective thread indeed. I couldn't wait to sign up and get on with it in '67, considering the formidable VC Foe an acceptable alternative to another year of confrontation with Mrs. Herrmann, the Algebra Teacher, and her Husband "Pete", the Principal. The "Cause" was, as I recall, somewhat secondary; my young and ignorant heart had just been broken for about the 6th time by the same girl, and the passage of an AK round through it didn't seem all that bad by comparison. As luck would have it, orders for DaNang were changed shortly before departure to Kimpo, Korea. Although things were decidedly tense there, too, the ordnance was not being exchanged quite as actively, and I returned intact. As it always seems to go, far better men than I who had so much more to live for.... did not. Having gotten into the belly of the dragon and associated with a lot of the fellows who had seen the elephant much more intimately than I in Country (and had the scars to prove it), I came away with a considerably more tolerant attitude toward those who excersized alternative options when the "call" came. There were prices to be paid no matter where we turned - even, I opine, by those who exploited wealth or priviledge to escape the wrath of Mars. I'm glad that Pres. Carter extended amnesty to those who split, and I hope that their family and pals were able to forgive them, if there were any hard feelings. I hope they forgave themselves. Had I known in '67 what I knew in '70, I'm not sure but what I might have done things differently. I rather admire the Quaker way; In WWI a number of them appantly worked out a deal with the Military so that they could be considered "Conciencious Objectors" and not forced to bear arms or fight, but were issued distinctive gray uniforms and served as Medics and Nurses. They did so with courage and distinction, many making the "supreme sacrifice" along with the combattants. One of the local "Friends" centers in Durham, ME, was used as an "underground railroad station" for escaping unwilling Draftees, and the Elder I spoke with related bundling some of the terrified, confused young men up in his VW bug at 3:00 in the Maine Winter Mornings to smuggle them North to a freedom which the "Land of the Free" seemed so anxious to deprive them of for no other reason that they could not shed the blood of a fellow human being with whom they had no quarrel. The Libertarians mention in their litterature (which, by the way condemns the practice of the draft) that "Slaves generally make poor Warriors". Makes sense to me, Mates. |
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29 Dec 00 - 10:01 PM (#365419) Subject: RE: For The Ones Who Chose Canada. From: catspaw49 Unc mentions "knowing in '67 what he knew in '70" and Little John also mentions the marine Vietnam vet...........In starting this thread, Rick suggested the importance of the "last person" someone talked with. All this to bring this thread back around a bit to that point. The returning vets who became active in the resistance were a special lot. Again, not all of their stories were the same, and I believe the motivation for coming out against the war differed from person to person. For some, I know, it was a kind of self therapy to get past what they had experienced. Others perhaps had a more political bent, but the bottom line is that they were generally held in high esteem for obvious reasons. When a guy with several medals says, "This war is horseshit, don't go," you do tend to listen. I can't say that any one person influenced me more, but over a period of time it became obvious that what I once believed was flawed and that someone was lying. McGrath brings up the Vietnamese people and I reached the point where I began to wonder how much a great threat they were. We were told they were, but again, the gray shades began to take over. Its hard not to remember Muhammed Ali's line, "I ain't got nothin' against them Congs." What I am trying to say is that more than one person, it was a case of where I was and when. In another place or maybe with a few months difference, I might have decided to go, or to apply for CO, or to go to Canada, or whatever. Like other things in our lives, a special set of circumstances falls into an order and we act upon it. Looking back now, I recall that one of the drawbacks to going to college where I did was the lack of an ROTC program. A few years later, I'm in jail for refusing to serve. We may be who we are, but that "who" is affected by fates we don't control in some cases. One thing is sure.......We were all there and most did what they believed in, but we were kids. Some of us never got any older, but most got wiser and 30 plus years later we all have a strange bond that exists because of having to make those choices and not in spite of the choices we made. Spaw |