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22 Oct 97 - 02:52 AM (#15059) Subject: The death of Louis Collins From: murray@zeus.mpce.mq.edu.au There was a song often played on the radio during the folk revival of the sixties which went something like Mrs. Collins wept, Mrs. Collins Moaned to see her son Louis leave his home oh, angels laid him away It was done by single voice and acustic guitar. (I sort-of remember it was Doc Watson, but ...) I would like to know who did it, and if it is available nowadays on CD or cassette. Thanks, Murray
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22 Oct 97 - 03:22 AM (#15060) Subject: RE: The death of Louis Collins From: Bill Howdy Murray, I always think of Louis Collins as a Mississippi John Hurt song. He certainly does fingerpick solo guitar and sing it. I'll have to look around to see if I've got it on CD, but I'm fairly sure it's on at least one of the several reissues of his material that has been done recently.
Allinkausay, |
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22 Oct 97 - 03:15 PM (#15085) Subject: RE: The death of Louis Collins From: John Nolan A extra couple of verses I know go: Bond shot one and Louis shot two, Bond shot Louis, shot him through and through, Angels etc.
When the women of the town heard Louis was dead,
Now the people of the town they sure took it hard, |
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22 Oct 97 - 05:48 PM (#15088) Subject: RE: The death of Louis Collins From: Jon W. |
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22 Oct 97 - 06:03 PM (#15089) Subject: RE: The death of Louis Collins From: Bob Schwarer Three sources for this song: Mississippi John Hurt "1928 Sessions" Doc Watson Jerry Garcia "Shady Grove" (with Dave Grisman" Don't know the name of the Doc Watson Album. Bob S. |
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22 Oct 97 - 06:46 PM (#15090) Subject: RE: The death of Louis Collins From: bigj See also MISSISSIPPI JOHN HURT - TODAY, Vanguard CD VMD 79220 re-released 1995. |
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09 Nov 97 - 09:34 PM (#16022) Subject: RE: The death of Louis Collins From: murray@zeus.mpce.mq.edu.au I am not sure this addition to the thread got properly posted, so I will do it again. Thanks for the answers. I think Doc Watson was a red herring. Anyway, it was Mississippi John Hurt that I was looking for. Here is a related question. In the song is a mention of all the people getting dressed in red (which is interpreted in a later version as all the woman people.) There is another mention to getting dressed in red in a leadbelly song called Po' Howard where he says Ol' Howard he is dead and gone, pretty little girl with a red dress on. What is the significance of getting dressed in red? Murray |
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10 Nov 97 - 01:31 PM (#16041) Subject: RE: The death of Louis Collins From: Jon W. Someone else could probably answer this better than I, but in the Victorian era I believe that a woman dressed in red was considered to have loose morals. Another reference is from Furry Lewis' version of "John Henry":
When the womens in the West heard of John Henry's death |
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14 Nov 97 - 12:00 AM (#16166) Subject: RE: The death of Louis Collins From: murray@zeus.mpce.mq.edu.au Thanks JonW. I can sort-of understand the John Henry lyrics as meaning some of the women were of loose morals and others were of tight :-) morals; but in "Louis Collins" they get dressed in red after they here he is dead. Perhaps I can refine the question to ask what getting dressed in red has to to with someone dying. Murray |
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14 Nov 97 - 05:00 AM (#16175) Subject: RE: The death of Louis Collins From: bfabbro@cp.duluth.mn.us 2 additional recordings of Louis Collins Mike Dowling: Beats Workin' 1996 Strictly Country Records David Grizman/Jerry Garcia |
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14 Nov 97 - 11:30 AM (#16193) Subject: RE: The death of Louis Collins From: dick greenhaus From a pragmatic but folky viewpoint-- One reason--maybe THE reason-- women in songs dressed in red after someone's demise is that it rhymes with DEAD. Consider what the chillun' dressed in in many spirituals: white---Israelite black---turning back red--- Moses led etc. As Freud said, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. |
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14 Nov 97 - 11:32 AM (#16194) Subject: RE: The death of Louis Collins From: Bob Schwarer But as another man said "A cigar is a smoke" Bob S. |
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14 Nov 97 - 02:44 PM (#16199) Subject: RE: The death of Louis Collins From: Jon W. Here's another stab at the "dressed in red" thing. Women would put on their best red dresses to go to a party, right? And what better excuse for having a party than a funeral, that is, a wake? For example, the black New Orleans funeral celebrations are legendary to the point of being cliches, as are the Irish wakes. |
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17 Nov 97 - 10:06 PM (#16322) Subject: RE: The death of Louis Collins From: murray@mpce.mq.edu.au I think the combination of jonW and Dick Greanhaus' answers give a pretty good guess. Namely the fact that they used to get dressed up for funerals, and given that "red" rhymes with "dead". The answer, although probably correct, disappoints me. I was hoping to find out if the people were happy or sad at Louis's death from the fact that they got dressed in red. I hope that some of the people who answered this question will read a new thread I am about to create about some elusive Billie Holiday songs. Murray |
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18 Nov 97 - 08:40 PM (#16358) Subject: RE: The death of Louis Collins From: John Nolan I always took it to be that Collins' death was some sort of cause for celebration with the womenfolk in those parts, and that red signified, "Let's party," but that's only a hypothesis. Did they also smoke cigars? We need to know. |
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01 Aug 00 - 12:22 AM (#269181) Subject: the real Louis Collins? From: GUEST,Matthew Hi, Folks- I'm new here -- I just found the site while looking for info about the REAL Louis Collins (of Mississippi John Hurt fame). Does anyone know the story? Supposedly John Hurt knew of the alleged incident first hand. I'm wondering if the story is common knowledge [a'la Stagolee, Frankie and Albert (Johnny), Casey Jones, et. al.] and I've just missed it. Please email me directly if you have any info or can point me in the right direction. Thank you. Matthew mrfox@uswest.net |
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04 Oct 02 - 07:13 PM (#797113) Subject: RE: The death of Louis Collins From: GUEST,Bruce, Nonmember I went looking for the lyrics, some of which I could not quite understand from the recording. I found this explanation of the "dressed in red" business: "A posting I found from Catherine Yronwode helpfully explains a bit more about the reference to "dressed in red": "White folks, accostomed to black being the colour worn both for funerals and for post-funereal mourning, sometimes think that references in blues songs to dressing in red signify a party atmosphere or happiness over a person's death. Not so. In Africa, and among African-Americans in earlier times, drssing in red has been a funerary custom. As such, it is reminiscent of burial with red ochre pigment, which was used among neolithic poeople (the "red paint people") the world around. The religious idea behind this custom is that as a baby is born from the mother's womb through blood, so will rebirth occur (after interrment in Mother Earth) through blood." I found this here. It seems to be a Grateful Dead website of some sort. |
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04 Oct 02 - 07:47 PM (#797119) Subject: RE: The death of Louis Collins From: McGrath of Harlow Is there a real Louis Collins back of this song? And if so does anyone know the story? It's a very specific kind of name, not the sort you'd just stick in to fill out the line, like Bill or Johnny for example. And I'd think perhaps red might have more significance than just a rhyme. Dead is a pretty easy word to find a rhyme for - they could have taken to their bed, or shook their head, for example. It might mean celebrating his death, or his life, or maybe just going back to work. |
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04 Oct 02 - 07:49 PM (#797121) Subject: RE: The death of Louis Collins From: greg stephens Hapened to Casey Jones too: When she heard that Casey was dead She went home and she dressed in red Said "Now children you can stop your crying Cos you got another Daddy on the Rock Island Line" This definitely seems to imply a cheerful angle to the red clothes, and not mourning at all. |
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04 Oct 02 - 08:23 PM (#797141) Subject: RE: The death of Louis Collins From: zac My wife has told me more than once that when I pass, she's not going to mourn long-- she's going to get her a red convertible to match her red dress- |
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04 Oct 02 - 08:39 PM (#797145) Subject: RE: The death of Louis Collins From: McGrath of Harlow This Grateful Dead lyrics page has an interesting bit about this: a posting I found from Catherine Yronwode helpfully explains a bit more about the reference to "dressed in red": And it also passes on a comment relating to the question I raised: According to "Masters Of The Instrumental Blues Guitar", Louis Collins is a murder ballad which Mississippi John Hurt composed from hearing people talk about a shooting. |
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04 Oct 02 - 10:10 PM (#797172) Subject: RE: The death of Louis Collins From: Bee-dubya-ell A couple of other recordings of Louis Collins: I learned the song in 1975 from a recording by the Iron Mountain String Band. I do not know when the recording was made. Probably a Folkways recording though I don't have the catalog number. Recorded by Lucinda Williams (as "Angels Laid Him Away) on Avalon Blues: A Tribute to the Music of Mississippi John Hurt, Vanguard 79582, 2001 |
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05 Oct 02 - 11:38 AM (#797401) Subject: RE: The death of Louis Collins From: Mike Regenstreif McGrath of Harlow asked: "Is there a real Louis Collins back of this song?" My friend Philadelphia Jerry Ricks, who was very close to Mississippi John Hurt, told me that "Louis Collins" was Hurt's favorite song and the real Collins was a cousin to him. "The Angels Laid Him Away" is an alternate title. In my own record library, I have at least four different recordings of Mississippi John Hurt doing the song. I also have versions by: Bill Bourne; Jerry Garcia & David Grisman; Jerry Garcia, David Grisman & Tony Rice; Last Forever; Bill Morrissey; Philadelphia Jerry Ricks; and Lucinda Williams. Mike Regenstreif |
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05 Oct 02 - 12:47 PM (#797450) Subject: ADD: Louis Collins / The Angels Laid Him Away From: Joe Offer There was a thread that had a link to lyrics, but the link was dead. Maybe we ought to have them posted here. I found this at the Grateful Dead Lyrics and Song Finder. Great site. -Joe Offer- Louis Collins Lyrics & Music: Mississippi John Hurt Mrs Collins weep, Mrs Collins moanNotes (1) this is the order of verses on "Shady Grove." On "The Pizza Tapes", Garcia reverses the order of the third and fourth verses, and then repeats the "Oh kind friends, now ain't it hard" verse before ending with the repeat of the first verse. Thanks to "CJ" for pointing this out. Recordings Roots According to "Masters Of The Instrumental Blues Guitar", Louis Collins is a murder ballad which Mississippi John Hurt composed from hearing people talk about a shooting. He first recorded it in 1928 for Okeh Records and then again in 1963 for Piedmont. Similarly, "Masters Of Country Blues Guitar" says that, according to Hurt, this song (his own composition) was based on a true episode. If anyone knows more about the incident which inspired the song, do let me know. Garcia sticks pretty closely to Mississipi John Hurt's version. These are the lyrics from "Mississippi John Hurt Today" (Vanguard 79220): Mrs Collins weeped, Mrs Collins moanedFurther notes (2) a posting I found from Catherine Yronwode helpfully explains a bit more about the reference to "dressed in red": "White folks, accostomed to black being the colour worn both for funerals and for post-funereal mourning, sometimes think that references in blues songs to dressing in red signify a party atmosphere or happiness over a person's death. Not so. In Africa, and among African-Americans in earlier times, drssing in red has been a funerary custom. As such, it is reminiscent of burial with red ochre pigment, which was used among neolithic poeople (the "red paint people") the world around. The religious idea behind this custom is that as a baby is born from the mother's womb through blood, so will rebirth occur (after interrment in Mother Earth) through blood. Bill Martin and Ella Speed in the Digital Tradition. Here's the entry on this song from the Traditional Ballad Index: Louis CollinsDESCRIPTION: Ms. Collins weeps to see son Louis leave home; he is shot to death in a gunfight. All the young women put on red clothing in mourning; he is buried in the new graveyard. Chorus: "Angels laid him away/Laid him six feet under the clay/Angels laid him away"AUTHOR: probably Mississippi John Hurt EARLIEST DATE: 1928 (recorded, Mississippi John Hurt) KEYWORDS: grief fight violence parting crime homicide clothes burial death mourning mother FOUND IN: US(SE) REFERENCES (1 citation): ADDITIONAL: Harold Courlander, _A Treasury of Afro-American Folklore_, Crown Publishers, 1976, pp. 393-394, "The Ballad of Louis Collins" (1 text) Roud #21815 RECORDINGS: Mississippi John Hurt, "Louis Collins" (OKeh 8724, 1929; rec. 1928; on MJHurt01, MJHurt02) (on MJHurt03) John Jackson, "Louis Collins" (on ClassAfrAm) File: RcLouCol Go to the Ballad Search form Go to the Ballad Index Instructions The Ballad Index Copyright 2015 by Robert B. Waltz and David G. Engle. Mississippi John Hurt recording: |
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31 Jul 08 - 06:28 AM (#2402061) Subject: RE: The death of Louis Collins From: Mr Happy more info here:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mississippi_John_Hurt |
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31 Jul 08 - 08:07 AM (#2402103) Subject: RE: The death of Louis Collins From: Megan L It probably jist meant he wis an auld hoormaister whit hid beded evry wumin in the toon. |
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31 Jul 08 - 12:30 PM (#2402350) Subject: RE: The death of Louis Collins From: Arkie Other recordings of the song: Mike Dowling Jenny Scheinman using title Miss Collins. |
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31 Jul 08 - 12:53 PM (#2402378) Subject: RE: The death of Louis Collins From: pdq Bill Clifton's version of Louis Collins dates to 1963 and, like most of his work, did not sell well. He was a folksinger who thought he was Country. The song has one of the great guitar breaks in Folk Revival history, done by Mike Seeger. Anything Bill Clifton did with John Duffey, Jimmy Gaudreau, Mike Seeger and Hedy West and Red Rector is classic and worth looking for. |
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31 Jul 08 - 12:54 PM (#2402381) Subject: RE: The death of Louis Collins From: PoppaGator This thread was dormant from October '02 until today; we had a much more recent conversation about this song in another thread, featuring some debate/discussion about the line: "Bob shot once / Louis shot twice..." That line certainly pertains to the stated topic of this thread, the death of Louis Collins. (When I say "much more recent," I mean within the last week or so ~ definitely during July '08.) The Louis who shot twice was apparently not the victim Louis Collins, but a second assailant with the same first name ~ according to MJH himself. This is probably one of the three "related threads" displayed at the top of this page. (Ought to be, anyway.) Anyone really interested in this song ought to check out all of those other threads |
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05 Aug 08 - 05:35 AM (#2405553) Subject: RE: The death of Louis Collins From: Mr Happy PoppaGator, 'This thread was dormant from October '02 until today; we had a much more recent conversation about this song in another thread, featuring some debate/discussion about the line: "Bob shot once / Louis shot twice..." ' I've checked those threads you mentioned, its not there. That line variation you quoted seems to indicate that the rest've the verse maybe different too, so as to achieve a rhyme. The version I have has: Oh Bob, he shot one and Louis shot two Shot poor Louis, shot him through and through Angels laid him away where the verse rhymes. How does your variation verse go? |
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05 Aug 08 - 06:51 PM (#2406092) Subject: RE: The death of Louis Collins From: GUEST,Tunesmith I somehow associate this song with Tom Paley. |
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06 Aug 08 - 06:40 AM (#2406379) Subject: RE: The death of Louis Collins From: evansakes Rachel Harrington, a country/folk singer from Oregon (who has just completed a long UK tour) does a great version of 'Louis Collins'. She played it when she came to TwickFolk a month or so ago and I think it's on her "Bootlegger's Daughter" album (you can sample the song at iTunes along with all the others mentioned above) Incidentally, I first heard and learnt this song off one of Stefan Grossman's 'Kicking Mule' guitar tutorial CDs back in the 70's. His version is the only one I've ever heard that uses an extra chord. Assuming you're in the key of C, over the "six feet" part of the melody he throws in an E7 where most versions maybe just have a C7 or even a plain C chord. It's just a 'passing' chord but because that's the first version I ever heard that's the way I still hear it in my head... |
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06 Aug 08 - 10:54 AM (#2406546) Subject: RE: The death of Louis Collins From: Doc John Dressind in red occurs in Lead Belly's Ella Speed; when the women all heard that Ella Speed was dead. |
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06 Aug 08 - 12:29 PM (#2406665) Subject: RE: The death of Louis Collins From: PoppaGator I erred when quoting this lyric in my post of [05 Aug 08 - 05:35 AM] ~ Louis shot "two," not "twice," rhyming with "through." My bad. So, we're not talking about different versions, after all. The Mudcat search function is not operative for anythng posted since the Big Crash of I-forget-how-long-ago. I've read messages from other members advising us that you can use the "filter" instead of the "search" to find more recent messages in the forum, but I don't know what that is, where to find it, how to use it, etc. But please take my word for it ~ there WAS a recent thread, active in July '08, about this song, and the most recent discussions were in regard to the "Louis" who "shot two": this was not (it was argued) the victim Louis Collins, but another Louis (or Lewis) joining Bob WIllis in the assault upon Mr. Collins. To add a bit more that I forgot to mention last week, there is one school of thought that further identifies this second assailant as one "Louis Angel," which would give added meaning to the line "Angel(s) laid him away. (In the original recording from the 20s, MJH omits the "S" sound from "angel" the first time he sings the line ~ "Angel laid him away" ~ giving a bit of credence to this theory.) Look: I'm pretty sure that I didn't imagine reading that thread last month, and indeed that I couldn't have dreampt up all that detail about "Louis Angel." That discussion has to be somewhewre in the archives, and quite recently. Could anyone possibly add it to the list of "realted threads" at the top of the page? I'm sure that it is a more thorough discusion of this subject than the three related threads currently listed, which each consist of relatively few messages. |
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06 Aug 08 - 01:42 PM (#2406740) Subject: RE: The death of Louis Collins From: Newport Boy Here's the thread you want. (click here) Phil |
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06 Aug 08 - 02:03 PM (#2406761) Subject: RE: The death of Louis Collins From: PoppaGator Thanks, Phil! I just checked, and the thread in question provides MANY more "related thread" links at the top of the page than does this one. That's a good reason for anyone interested in Mississippi John Hurt to take a look there, even those not especially interested in the identity of "the other Lewis." |
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12 Oct 10 - 06:15 AM (#3005051) Subject: RE: The death of Louis Collins From: Mr Happy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYUtTuxf5LU |
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12 Oct 10 - 08:51 AM (#3005127) Subject: RE: The death of Louis Collins From: Banjovey We have just recorded this on our CD which can be found at www.beachyheadbangers.co.uk |