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04 Mar 01 - 09:03 PM (#410929) Subject: Celtic melancholy From: Greyeyes I heard an interview recently with a BBC correspondent called Fergal Keane. He is Irish; I would guess southern by the accent, and in my opinion, one of, if not the, outstanding broadcast journalist of his generation in the UK, possibly Ireland as well (but I'm not in a position to judge that). During the course of the interview he commented that he "was subject to the natural Celtic predisposition to melancholy". I wondered, given the wealth of Celtic members on the mudcat, whether other Celts felt that they were subject to the same predisposition; whether they felt such a predisposition actually exists; and whether this supposed melancholic predisposition is evident in Celtic music? As an Englishman of Celtic extraction, if that makes sense, I think I know where Fergal is coming from, and my favourite tunes/songs are mostly sad ones. Although I appreciate there is a great deal of light-hearted material to draw on as well.
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04 Mar 01 - 09:27 PM (#410936) Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy From: GUEST The subject was treated in a book of the 1st half of the 17th century, Burton's ' The Anatomy of Melancholy'. The affliction is not limited to Celts, p or q. It appears to be most prevelant among survivors of a lost cause. |
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04 Mar 01 - 09:41 PM (#410939) Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy From: Malcolm Douglas There are very few English people who don't have "Celtic" antecedents. As has been said many times, here and elsewhere, the term is really meaningless except in the linguistic sense, and is largely an imaginary construct dating from, at the earliest, the 18th century; more recently, the "Celtic Twilight" movement (Yeats, Fiona MacLeod and so on) defined that misty, melancholy thing which appeals so much today to the "New Age" people who would rather believe in agreeable fantasy than historical fact. Having said that, it's undoubtedly true that the Gaelic tradition is particularly good at expressing melancholy; I suspect that that is mainly a stylistic thing rather than a question of any particular predisposition. I also suspect that alcohol has had a lot to do with it; I myself come from a long line of Scottish alcohol abusers, all of whom have shown very distinct melancholic tendencies when under the influence of whisky. For some reason, beer doesn't seem to have the same effect, which is perhaps why the English are considered less musically sensitive, though they are quite as good at sad songs as anybody else. Malcolm |
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04 Mar 01 - 10:17 PM (#410953) Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy From: Greyeyes Guest, I'm not suggesting the affliction is limited to Celts. Malcolm Douglas, "There are very few English people who don't have "Celtic" antecedents." Really? I know a great many; and why is the term meaningless because it is linguistic in origin? A Celt is simply someone who originates from one of the countries with a Celtic language, I don't see that as an imaginary construct. I like the alcohol connection, I've been at the whisky tonight, might explain a lot. |
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04 Mar 01 - 10:41 PM (#410962) Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy From: wdyat12 Greyeyes, The whisky can do it alright. That's why I switched to merlot. Melancholy in fine, but mellow is much better. wdyat12 |
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04 Mar 01 - 10:46 PM (#410964) Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy From: Áine Well said, Malcolm. I especially appreciated your comment about the term 'Celtic', ". . . the term is really meaningless except in the linguistic sense, and is largely an imaginary construct dating from, at the earliest, the 18th century; more recently, the "Celtic Twilight" movement . . . defined that misty, melancholy thing which appeals so much today to the "New Age" people who would rather believe in agreeable fantasy than historical fact." May I please quote you? I recently read another similar opinion, which I am forced to paraphrase, since, unfortunately, I cannot remember where I read it or who was being quoted -- however, the gist of the comment was, that in relation to using the term 'Celtic' in regards to music, that the term revealed that the musician/group had not mastered any particular musical tradition, and were copying licks off of records and jumbling them all together, in an weak and ill-advised attempt at sounding 'authentic' to an uneducated and uninformed audience. And as far as 'Celtic melancholy' goes; well, tell me any culture or society that is immune to the emotion of sadness -- which, of course, would be expressed in any of the art forms available to the human race? To sum up my opinion of there being any particular tendency of the descendants of the wide-spread and diverse tribes that shared a basic linguistic and cultural foundation -- bollocks. -- Áine |
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04 Mar 01 - 11:42 PM (#410985) Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy From: Jimmy C Here's to the great Gaels of Ireland The people God made mad For all their wars were merry And all their songs were sad I think I got this right (at least 90%) |
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04 Mar 01 - 11:44 PM (#410986) Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy From: Sorcha "Melancholic" Tradtion, see Rom/Gypsy music. Or Slavic/Russian traditonal stuff.
"Lost Homeland" Tradition, see Jewish muisic.
"Alcoholism", see any culture, just depends on whether it's Glorified or not........
Sorry, but displaced Irish/Celts don't have a monopoly on depression. I suppose they might, just might, have an In with regard to expressing it, but I doubt it.
Just because you are of Irish/Celtic descent does not automatically give you a Monopoly on depression.....Get a Life!! In an historical sense, "Celtic" also means Danish, Swedish, Norwegian, French, Spanish, Galician, Atolian,Anatolian, how far back do you want to go?
Go far enough back and all of Modern Europe will be Keltoi.....so stuff the mea mea crap. Also, most of the US was setteled by Keltoi stock------except for the Indeigenous Peoples, who were of (apparently) Asian stock, and they have lots of their own depression/alcohol problems..........
Oh, you don't want Western Culture? Let's talk about Eastern Culture, then. The Individual will be sublimated for the good of the All........Seppuku, the taking of one's own life, will not only be condoned, but Glorified. Depression is NOT ALLOWED in the East, never has been. Depression is Personal, the image of the Total Culture (face) is all.......... Sorry, but don't talk to me about "Celts?" having a monopoly on depression.......
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05 Mar 01 - 12:20 AM (#410999) Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy From: Amergin Well said, Scorch....though sometimes it is easy to forget that others suffer from it too.... |
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05 Mar 01 - 12:29 AM (#411006) Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy From: katlaughing Indeed, it is apparent in all cultures. My first husband was first generation American of German descent on one side and second on the other. His was a very melancholic family, esp. when drinking. 'Twas he who wrote Melancholy is the blue side of the fire of love burning within me. In all of our five years and two children together, he never stopped pining away for his first and unatainable love. My own family of mostly Anglo-Saxon and Native American descent has had its share, too, with alcoholism and suicide occuring. Me, I've got B positive blood, so I've always taken that as a directive for how to live my life.**BG** kat |
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05 Mar 01 - 12:44 AM (#411014) Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy From: GUEST,Bruce O. I think Malcolm is right, as usual. True that Anglo-Saxons took ofer most of the south east 2/3 of the island, except for the west, principally Wales now. But not all the Britons went to Wales or Brittany. Many Britons were not chased out, and stayed where they always had been, and were then ruled by the Saxons+, but were eventually absorbed. It appears that the same happened with the Picts who seem to have been the last pure Celts. The Irish of Dalriada (known as Scots) seem to have been partly absorbed and partially exterminated by the Scots, for a while, but the Scots soon discovered that the matrilinal descent of the the Picts meant that they could marry Pictish Princesses and come to power over the Picts without fighting them, and they did that. The last evidence for Picts put them only approximately c 900 -1000 CE. [Some Scots had been there for some time but the small kingdom expanded when Fergus mac Roch led a new group over pretty close to 500 CE. Extrapolating a bit from myth - Fergus was in bad grace with his king Conchobar for trying to save the Sons of Usneth from extermination, so Conchobar could have Deirdre. Fergus was apparently on reasonably good terms with the Britons, as he's mentioned among those associated (distantly) with Arthur in the early Welsh tale 'Culhwch and Olwen'.] |
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05 Mar 01 - 01:25 AM (#411024) Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy From: katlaughing Oops, I meant to say of Anglo Saxon, Celt, and NA etc... Bruce, it is always a pleasure to see your postings here. Thanks for the information! kat |
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05 Mar 01 - 09:01 AM (#411076) Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy From: GUEST,Wavestar On a completely different note, though by the tone of this thread I expect to get toasted for this - and before I say it, let no one think I'm saying that any one culture, people, race, species, universe, circus, etc, has a monopoly on being depressed. In regards to what the original Fergus quoted said, I've have recent and not so recent conversations with both American and Scottish friends since I've been here, regarding the atmosphere of Scotland in particular and Britain in general, and the melancholy that pervades it. Several American friends have said they often feel like the sir itself can be dark and heavy here, and that it's a very depressing place to be. Like anywhere, much of this is due to darkness and weather, but they insist that the area and atmosphere is more oppresive here than in Northern New England, where the weather is often terrible. I'm of mixed opinions on this myself. I have in the past noted a very frustrating attitude of hopelessness and apathy in the people I live among in St Andrews - they don't like what's going on around them, but they won't even try to change it because they couldn't possibly and why bother anyway, all the good things are already gone. Now, I understand that it can often be frustrating to fight against the status quo, and often idealistic battles don't succeed. On the other hand, and maybe this is my young, idealist, rural American upbringing speaking, it's always worth trying! If you don't stand up and say anything, about even the things you feel strongest about, it's no wonder nothing changes. My friend Gary says it's just the Scottish way. I don't know - I've seen both sides. On one hand, the culture here can be oppresively single-minded, tradition oriented, mired in beauracracy, and not interested in change, variation, or hope. On the other, I also know that I've encountered lots of very cheerful, helpful people who, while they may not idealistically crusade all the time, very efficiently and purposefully take care of their own, and offer care and hospitality to others - not exactly despairing. Unlike some friends who believe that the cloud of years of depressing history hangs over Scotland and renders the air oppressive, I've come to the general conclusion that it's an attitude thing. It certainly isn't only Scotland that has it, though, or only Britain either. It seems a pervading attitude particularly among the young in the poorer urban and rural areas, who aren't offered a good education or many opportunities, grew up in a heavily traditional and often close-minded society, and have lives both jaded and sheltered at the same time. Alcohol has much to do with it - there isn't much else to do when you're young and bored. Being idealistic doesn't last long in an atmosphere like that. I have friends who either came out irrationally cynical and judgemental, or lonely and immature, or both. Controlled by a government they feel that they have no part in and no say over, they get on with their lives, growing into people who go on, but don't bother with too much hope, because, like caviar, it doesn't seem to apply to them. This isn't only in Britain. I've seen exactly the same in the US, in both rural and urban kids, with the same result in adults. So - Mudcatters have opinions on everything. Your opinions here? UK Catters- do you think Britain is a depressing place to live? Have you found anywhere else to be better? Do you think it depends on the person? Attitude? Government? Society? etc... Please understand I do realise my own UK experiences come from a fairly limited group of people, in both age and background, but not, I think, so limited that my observations don't have merit. Now that I've rambled on in thread creep for ages, tell me what you think. -J |
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05 Mar 01 - 12:00 PM (#411185) Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy From: GUEST,Bruce O. I completely screwed up one sentence there. It was the Dalriada Scots that absorbed or eliminated nearby Picts, in their earlier years. Look at this way. The 3rd and last large migration to Brittany (c 520 CE) occured when the Britons still held a territory much larger than present Wales. Many Britons stayed where they were when Saxons+ conquered them. Wales couldn't have fed them all if they had migrated there (but perhaps with the help of Cornwall could barely manage). The late conquered Britons really didn't have much of an option to go anywhere. (It has alway amazed me that the culture of Cornwall and Wales was seemingly nearly the same, although the geography dictated very different lifestyles.) Usually neglected to be mentioned is the fact that small groups of Saxons had emigrated to Britain before Hengist and Horsa arrived (that 449 date seems to be most popular but isn't at all very certain), but they were peaceful settlers, and had caused no great problems. In my personal experience I thought that melancholy (depression) and alcohol fed on each other, but found when I completely abstained from alcohol, the depression instantly and permanently (over 17 years now) disappeared.
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05 Mar 01 - 12:33 PM (#411217) Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy From: Fiolar Apparently statisics show that the Irish in Britain suffer from a higher rate of mental illness than other emigrant groups. I don't hold much with statistics myself as they can be twisted to prove anything as I found out more than once to my cost when we supplied a return of staff vacancies to our personnel department. The complete report when printed showed that we were really overstaffed. As for Norwegian and other Scandanavian races being Celtic - well that is news to me.The Scandanavians have a completely different pantheon from the Celts for a start. |
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05 Mar 01 - 12:59 PM (#411237) Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy From: GUEST,Bruce O. I skipped over the Scandinavian suicide rate because I don't have solid numbers to back it up. To the best of my knowledge they aren't of Celtic origin (their old religious beliefs seem to have quite different from that the Celts had). As for statistics one always has to assign weights to the data, and with some imagination along that line you can show just about anything you want to with statistics. There is a good guide to this in what is now a rather old book, called 'How to Lie with Statistics'. The ratios of molecular rotational constants from microwave unit and infrared spectra units is the speed of light, and Professor Rank of Penn State U, rank the spectra of CO (carbon monoxide) to determine the speed of light by using the known microwave constants, and came out with a value that matched very well with that in his old handbook. It was subsequently pointed out to him that the value in his old handbook was obsolete. So reannalizing the same data with a more creative assignment of weights, he then got good agrement with the more modern value. (But not the value now known, and internationally defined as correct. It's another story how you can define it as correct that I won't go into here.)
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05 Mar 01 - 01:48 PM (#411275) Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy From: Greyeyes Sorcha, I think you misinterpreted my question. I didn't mention anyone having a monopoly on depression. I simply asked if "Celtic" people (avoiding the debate lucidly aired above on that expression) have a natural predisposition to melancholy. I don't suffer from depression personally, I merely commented that my favourite tunes/songs are mostly sad ones. I'll have to see about getting a life, thanks for the advice. Of course if you go back far enough we're all descended from a woman in central Africa. Perhaps we get it from her? Wavestar, the Scots have a reputation for being dour. I'm not convinced it's justified, too sweeping a generalisation. There is I think a fatalistic attitude in the UK generally, when compared with USA, where the pioneer spirit lives on to some extent. Most American public libraries provided internet access by local fundraising and campaigning years ago, UK public libraries largely sat back and waited to be told by central govt. when they should provide it. Many, mine included, still haven't, although it is planned. |
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05 Mar 01 - 01:58 PM (#411290) Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy From: Seamus Kennedy Alcohol, and a permanent Seasonal Affected Disorder. Seamus |
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05 Mar 01 - 02:02 PM (#411293) Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy From: Sorcha Apologies, Greyeyes, I was a little cranky yesterday. I also did not mean that the Scandinavians were Celtic, but that there are Celtic sites in Scandinavia......the Gundestrup Cauldron was found in Denmark. I just meant the Celts were everywhere, and left genetic imprints all over Europe, and possibly Asia. Some scholars think that perhaps the Celts were Sythians or a related tribe from the Steppes of Asia.......(I'll go see if I can find my life, OK?) |
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05 Mar 01 - 02:03 PM (#411294) Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy From: McGrath of Harlow Let's not slip into arguments about national and racial stereotypes. I think there probably are moods that tie in with particular cultures at particular periods, but there's nothing inbuilt or permanent or "racial" about them.
What I find more interesting is how everyone seems to be seeing a taste for melancholy as undesirable. I think it's an essential part of being human, and if you haven't got a touch of it you're going to be pretty difficult to get along with. There's nothing as depressing as relentless cheerfulness.
We've had one |Chesterton quote in the thread, by Jimmy C, from The Ballad of the White Horse. Here's another, from a Father Brown Story (The Three Tols of Death"h:
If ever I murdered somebody" Father Brown added quite simply, "I dare say it might be an Optimist."
"Why?" cried Merton, amused; "do you think people dislike cheerfulness?"
"People like frequent laughter," answered Father Brown,"but I don't think they like a permanent smile. Cheerfulness without humour is a very trying thing." |
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05 Mar 01 - 02:08 PM (#411303) Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy From: Greyeyes No worries Sorcha, it's 7pm in the UK, the sun is over the yardarm and I'm going to pour myself a large drink and see how melancholy I can make myself by bed time! |
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05 Mar 01 - 02:12 PM (#411308) Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy From: Amergin I wish I could be made "melancholy".....instead of it just happening to me..... |
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05 Mar 01 - 02:13 PM (#411310) Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy From: Fiolar Any Celtic items in Scandanavia are more than likely to be plunder brought back by the Vikings. Incidentally the Irish way of spelling "whisky" is "whiskey." and as any Celtic person will tell it is a bastard form of "uisge beatha" - the water of life. |
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05 Mar 01 - 03:14 PM (#411364) Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy From: GUEST Usquebah, as it is often called, is really the water of death for those bent on enjoy their selfdestruction. |
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05 Mar 01 - 03:49 PM (#411398) Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy From: Greyeyes Moderation in all things. |
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05 Mar 01 - 10:00 PM (#411679) Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy From: GUEST The Gundestrup Cauldron being found in Denmark means nothing. Where did it come from? Lots of Danegeld has been found in Denmark, too, and we know where that came from. |
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06 Mar 01 - 12:20 AM (#411774) Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy From: jaze Well said, Kat! I love the B positve blood type/attitude analogy. We ALL have our ups and downs. That's why we all need to suppport each other so we don't end up feeling like the only answer is what happened at Santana High School today. |
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06 Mar 01 - 09:47 AM (#411953) Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy From: Fiolar Again without wishing to be accused of nitpicking "Usquebah" is just the Scots Gaelic version of "uisge beatha" and there are easier ways of killing oneself off than by drinking the "water." |
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06 Mar 01 - 02:10 PM (#412118) Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy From: Boab Perhaps if nationalism hadn't risen in recent years in the lands of Scotland and Wales, or the rising in Dublin 1916 had never occurred, the politically inspired blatherings of a couple of "professors" in the depths of some English university a couple of years back re. the "nonexistence" of the Celtic genre would never have been parrotted on this forum. There is a celtic culture, many of the traditions of which are fading, or have already gone ---not always a bad thing [e.g. the "clan" system.]That nobody ever thought to label this culture with the name "celt" doesn't mean it didn't exist before the 18th century. Did the "English" exist when they were a disparate population of Saxons, Jutes, Britons etc.? Are the First Nations people of North America to falsely admit to the non-existence of their culture? Ach! Let's get back to music---folk music---the stuff that folk play and sing----- |
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06 Mar 01 - 02:17 PM (#412131) Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy From: McGrath of Harlow Of course back in the old days in a lot of places, drinking water neat was more likely to kill you than drinking booze, which killed the bugs quicker than it killed you. |
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06 Mar 01 - 02:28 PM (#412142) Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy From: GUEST There hasn't been any purely Celtic culture since the Picts disappeared about 1000 CE. And we know little about them. Nobody has even implied the blood of Celts doesn't still flow in those of Celtic origin, (how pure it is is very questionable) but Celtic culture has long been dead. Show us some evidence Boab. Assertions are meaningless. Gerald of Wales reported that the Scots (all the Irish) were descended from a Spanish princess, Scotia, but that does't mean they weren't Celts (they're just all black Irish) |
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06 Mar 01 - 03:37 PM (#412212) Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy From: Hillheader I am a Scot of distant Irish extraction,my Great-grandparents came over here at the time of the potato famine. Just to link some of the threads together, I aways say that some Scots have an "..every silver lining has a cloud mentality.." where their glass is always half empty - never half full. We Scots are also decended from both Viking and Irish traditions in that we have both the ability to fight and to start it!! You can put those two attributes in whatevever order suits your personal ethnics preference. Seriously though on the Scots reputation for dourness I would need to protest. Yes there are some areas of the country where you would find this trait but the major population is west & central i.e. around Glasgow. The tendancy here is "trust, until the person proves unworthy of that trust" while in other areas it can be "trust no one, until the person proves they can be trusted". That said however, I have been in some very unfriendly parts of England also. Perhaps history has an ingraining effect and areas that have suffered most in the past tend to be the most insular. What I think I am trying to say is that people are generally the same the world over. They react to the factors around them and conform. While in a Glasgow bar it may be considered offensive to ignore the person next to you, in other parts (London is a farther flung example) it would be almost rude to start a conversation in the same circumstances. It depends on where you are as much as who you are. |
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06 Mar 01 - 06:46 PM (#412350) Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy From: GUEST People adapt from one culture to another equally ridiculous one in order to survive outside of the insane asylum, but many psychiatrists have questioned on what side of the walls of an insane asylum are the truly insane are to be found. |
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06 Mar 01 - 08:07 PM (#412406) Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy From: McGrath of Harlow I don't think the Picts actually were Celtic. By which I mean that the evidence is that the Pictish language wasn't a Celtic language - which is the only relevant criterion, "Celtic" being a term that refers to language, and by extension to other cultural artifeacts, and not to "race". |
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07 Mar 01 - 02:03 AM (#412560) Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy From: Deni Guest My son asked me months ago what the term Black Irish means, after hearing it in an Australian prison drama. Since you used the term, would you define it for me. Greyeyes VERY interesting thread, Greyeyes. does the liking for sad songs follow the melancholy or does the melancholy lead to the liking for sad songs. I've got the same trouble. Our first folk album, thanks to my influence had around 70% of songs which I consider beautiful and melancholy. I am really having to be strict with myself to add some cheerful ones to subsequent albums, but I must confess I don't really feel them... Don't you think though that if you've descended into melancholy a bit of fiddle music can lift your spirits considerably. I can't be the only person who can be despondednt one minute and skipping round the house next, depending on what's on the CD player. On the Celtic thing. It's amazing how heated these arguments get. (Warlike?) Has anyone come across the Celtic Nations and visited its website? These people are trying to increase interest in the culture and are showing a certain generosity of spirit? Maybe all the 'displaced Celts' or those who feel themselves spiritually linked should support each other instead of each trying to prove their greater claim to the Celtic mantle. (Hooray for co-operation instead of superiority.) As has already been mentioned here, tracing these links would be impossible. It isn't surprising that singers and musicians and other artists are attracted to the Celtic history, when you consider the enormous richness of Myths and Legends, art etc... if you are looking for research and inspiration, you don't go the place which inspires you the least. I found myself frustrated by the lack of ancient legend in Devon until I read somewhere that when most of the Celts were driven into Wales and Corwall...yes, leaving behind a few stragglers...they would have obviously caried their legends with them. So why shouldn't we all enjoy them? They don't have to be 'ours' to be appreciated. Quote from Celtic Mythology, published by Geddes and Grosset. '...it was believed that the fount of primeval poetry issuing from Scandanavian and Germanic mythology was truly that of the British Isles and that we are rightful heirs to it of it by reason of the Anglo-Saxon in our blood. So indeed we are, but it is not our sole heritage. There must also run much Celtic -that is, truly British blood in our veins...We have the right therefore to claim a new spiritual possession...' (There is a footnote which states in detail all the places in Britain which were settled by the Celts.) That's the quote, and one thing is sure. The peoples with whom we are so keen to claim kinship would have had an unceasing argument on the subject, probably with a few heads taken! Deni from Devon |
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07 Mar 01 - 03:48 AM (#412576) Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy From: GUEST,Bruce O. I know something about the Spanish Armada myth behind it but I think McGrath of Harlow or Malcolm Douglas or others can probably handle it much better. |
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07 Mar 01 - 05:27 AM (#412600) Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy From: Wolfgang Black Irish. One long explanation. Wolfgang |
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07 Mar 01 - 05:59 AM (#412609) Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy From: GUEST,Moleskin Joe In the Isle Of Man there is a place called Spanish Head where a ship of the Armada was allegedly wrecked. It is also alleged that there are a significant number of people in the southernmost part of the island who have a Spanish appearance. What is undeniable is that the name Juan is not uncommon as a male Christian name, pronounced Joo-an. Good Luck, Ian M. |
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07 Mar 01 - 06:15 AM (#412617) Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy From: Gervase From a great depressed Dane: I have of late - but wherefore I know not - lost all my mirth, forgone all custom of exercises; and indeed it goes so heavily with my disposition that this goodly frame, the earth, seems to me a sterile promontory, this most excellent canopy, the air, look you, this brave o'erhanging firmament, this majestical roof fretted with golden fire, why, it appears no other thing to me than a foul and pestilent congregation of vapours. What a piece of work is a man! how noble in reason! how infinite in faculty! in form and moving how express and admirable! in action how like an angel! in apprehension how like a god! the beauty of the world! the paragon of animals! And yet, to me, what is this quintessence of dust? man delights not me: no, nor woman neither, though by your smiling you seem to say so. Nope, melancholy's a universal thing. Particularly when it's raining. |
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07 Mar 01 - 09:12 AM (#412697) Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy From: Fiolar On the association with Spain, there is a place in Galway City called The Spanish Arch and there is a long history of the association with Spain. The sister of an Irish friend of mine looked every inch a Spanish senorita. As for the Celtic connections anyone interested is reccommended to read the books of Peter Beresford Ellis. |
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07 Mar 01 - 01:47 PM (#412899) Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy From: Alice Just a comment on the disdain of using the term "Celtic". I, too, for a time avoided using the word Celtic, especially because music marketers began using it to label tranced-out new age recordings. But, recently, I decided in my own small way to reclaim the label "Celtic", since there are styles of decorative art on artifacts and in manuscripts, as well as the music that has been developed in regions that were Celtic in language. I am not alone in struggling with using the label for music, but I've come to the conclusion that since I like to sing more than Irish songs, it was more appropriate for me to use "Celtic" to describe the type of songs I offer. I really don't think it is fair to lump all musicians who call their work "Celtic" like this - " musician/group had not mastered any particular musical tradition, and were copying licks off of records and jumbling them all together". There are very informed musicians who have also struggled with the way new-age has co-opted the word Celtic, and have yet decided to embrace the label. You can read about it in a discussion here, particularly between a Scottish musician and a Welsh/American singer. Are we all Celts? click here |
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07 Mar 01 - 05:28 PM (#412987) Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy From: GUEST,Bruce O. I sympathize Alice, but once the advertizers latch onto a word it's hard to re-esablish it's legitimate use. Just look at what's called folk music now. I think the Scots are still writing 'Jacobite' ballads. Celtic art, jewelry, religious artifacts are widely sprread in Europe and the British Isles, and it would appear that a lot of the gold came from the Wicklow Mountains (not too far from Dublin). Can someone tell me anything directly about Pictish language was, and the language on the 'rune' stones or whatever those old memorial stones in Scotland are called. |
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07 Mar 01 - 06:35 PM (#413018) Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy From: McGrath of Harlow Well Spanish survivors of the Armada may have played their part, but there've been Spanish links with the West of Ireland long before then - in fact it's likely that the first people to come to Ireland came that way rather than via Britain, back in Stone Age times.
The black refers often more to the very dark hair colour, contrasting with very pale skin - a combination that you often find in people from the West, which I believe is thought to date back to those days.
It's also used to refer to people with an angry kind of mood. And it's also also used where people have dark complexions; including these days the welcome addition to the Irish gene pool of people who have a mixed ancestry, some of it hailing from Africa or wherever.
As for the use of "Celtic" to refer to Irish music, I don't like it myself, partly because it's not an accurate term for a lot of the music anyway - but more because it implies that people who aren't of Gaelic descent aren't really Irish. And anyone who suggests that Wolfe Tone and Parnell and Yeats and Bernard Shaw (or Ian Paisley for that matter) weren't or aren't Irish is talking offensive nonsense. |
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07 Mar 01 - 06:46 PM (#413021) Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy From: Sorcha Bruce O, a couple sites for you about language:
Pictish language (and other good stuff) here. Stuff about Ogham runes here. |
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07 Mar 01 - 06:48 PM (#413023) Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy From: Sorcha One outta two ain't bad........try again: Ogham info |
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07 Mar 01 - 09:35 PM (#413096) Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy From: GUEST,Bruce O. Thanks a lot Sorcha. |
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07 Mar 01 - 10:01 PM (#413103) Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy From: Peg my my; a fascinating thread. And I thought my proclivity for singing sad dirge-like Celtic songs of death and lost love was just, ya know, ME... Gotta say I do love the Celtic landscapes/climates I have spent time in...the overcast skies and damp weather are the stuff of Hammer films: misty, opaque light in churchyards... and I have never seen so many RAINBOWS as I have in England..all the rain! Saw a full rainbow that o'erhung the village of Avebury on the Day of the Summer Solstice, 2000; never seen such a wondrous site, ever...it spanned the stone circle that surrounds the town...if that is the stuff of melancholy, bring it on, melads, bring it on... Peg (confirmed anglophile and indigent Celt)
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07 Mar 01 - 10:02 PM (#413104) Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy From: GUEST,Bruce O. Sorry, there's nothing there that can be related to Picts. South Wales and Devonshire's no surprise, the were more the one Irish kingdomlet in that area c 450 to 550 CE. Scotland's more interesting but the Ogham stones Pict or (Irish Dalriada Scots ones. I wonder about the old stones too. I have a fuzzy recolection of having read that the Ogham markings were a system of simple to carve marks to represent much harder to carve Roman letters. If true then it seems unlikely any could be as early as about (very roughly) 470 CE. Romans never got to Ireland. Upper class Britons knew Latin, but how early could they have carried it to their enemies, the Irish. (I don't know anything about how well the Irish in South Wales got along with their British neighbors. Brychan Breicheinoig (the little king, Irish) was said to be Vortigen's ally, even, which put him close to the Cunnda progeny, the most powerful in the North, even after Ambrosius Aurelianis came to power (only in the south and central Britain?) Cunneda's mission the rid Wales (current name) of Irish seems to have been in the West and North of present Wales. |
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08 Mar 01 - 02:05 AM (#413216) Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy From: Deni alice Althouh lots of people don't like the term celtic I should think people are free to describe themselves as they want to. I've never felt as stirred by art and craft as I am by ancient Celtic artifacts, and it would be too pedantic to go in to long explanations of the kind of art I like, when I can just say Celtic and everyone knows what I mean. Also, we were sat in a singaround at Teignmouth in Devon last year and someone sang Wild Mountain Thyme, so beautifully that a hush fell. When she'd finished singing (It was Anne Gill) a woman at the bar breathed...that was Celtic and everybody nodded sagely and was happy. How can we ruin their pleasure? When we describe our music as English & Celtic people want to hear us. If we say folk, they suspiciously ask 'What kind of folk? because not everyone likes what they call yokel music.' cheers devon deni |
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08 Mar 01 - 03:15 AM (#413226) Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy From: GUEST,Bruce O We've had several discussion here on "Wild Mountain Thyme" and "Braes o' Balquither". Origins seem to be a little earlier the 1750 in Scotland, when the original tune wa first published. I put Jack Campin's early text here, and I think we also have Robert Tannahill's version, which the McPeake's in Ireland revised. Celtic origin it ain't. |
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08 Mar 01 - 01:29 PM (#413453) Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy From: Greyeyes But Deni's point is if people who aren't really into folk music are comfortable believing that songs like WMT are Celtic, why spoil their fun? And if Deni can describe the music they perform as generic Celtic, and everybody understands what they mean, why not do that? No doubt Fergal Keane is aware of the dubious nature of the term Celtic, but in using the phrase "natural Celtic disposition to melancholy" most people will understand what he meant by it. |
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08 Mar 01 - 02:40 PM (#413507) Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy From: GUEST,Bruce O. Sorcha, that first click on you gave is more along the lines of what I wanted, but references are't given. Some things are trivial, and much is questionable (I don't like taking info from Geoffrey of Monmouth's 'History' because one can't isolate facts in that great mass of fiction.) On the whole I rather like it, and wish I had the references he used to get his facts, or at least carefully thought out speculations.
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08 Mar 01 - 03:09 PM (#413528) Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy From: Sorcha Bruce, way down at the bottom of the page is Bibliography Still no actual footnotes, but I found it with Google Search by asking for "Pictish language" with the quotes. There were several other hits, if you want to try it yourself. |
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08 Mar 01 - 03:11 PM (#413530) Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy From: Sorcha I didn't read the entire biblio, but yes indeed on Geoff of Mon! I noticed John and Caitlin Matthews are on the biblio, and they are in the same class, as far as I am concerned........... |
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08 Mar 01 - 05:24 PM (#413581) Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy From: GUEST,Bruce O. Thanks again Sorcha. |
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08 Mar 01 - 08:00 PM (#413636) Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy From: InOBU I was going to comment on this thread, but I am just feeling to low to bother. I think I will go back to the studio and cry into my microphone. Gee, I am even too depressed to make a plug for the band... almost... which is... as you all know... SORCHA DORCHA! Soon to be availble on the NEW RECORD LABLE Hearthside Music Cooperative! Ah the plug go matic strikes again! Why I am feeling right chipper, chuft even! It must be the Rom side of me! Cheer up brother and sister Celts! Nilamuid Sasta, the first CD from Sorcha Dorcha is on the way sooner or later! Larry |
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08 Mar 01 - 08:54 PM (#413654) Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy From: Deni Thanks greyeyes. That's exactly what I meant. how the atmosphere at that singaround would have been ruined if someone had rounded on the breathless listener and told them they were incorrect. They would have got the impression that folkies are argumentative, and they are not, are they? Now don't all rush at once chaps... Cheers Deni |
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08 Mar 01 - 09:08 PM (#413663) Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy From: GUEST,Bruce O. Argumentative, yes, but worth fighting over, or getting mad about, no. |
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06 May 02 - 10:39 AM (#705223) Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy From: Aodh "Usquebah is Scots Gaelic?" which Island is that from? Lewis probably they've always said strange things up there! The Scots Gaelic for whisky is "Uisge Beatha". And on the topic of celtic melancholy, the Scots Gaels do have Ceanalas which isn't homesicknes, but is!?! |
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06 May 02 - 01:06 PM (#705292) Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy A few things struck me as I read this thread, the most important one being that there is a big difference between melancholy and depression. SO back to the question of melancholy (alcoholism is an entirely different issue, re: genetic, & social influences). Whether or not there is a 'natural Celtic disposition' toward melancholy I would argue 'no'. And certainly no one culture has a particular monopoly on this emotion. But some cultures exhibit more of an aesthetic and emotional appreciation of melancholy/nostalgia than others, like the Irish that deals with emigration, foreign domination, hardship and famine, etc. The Welsh have Hieraeth. The Scots Ceanalas. The Portuguese Saudade. The Qawalli poets like Rumi and others, & like the Hindu Bhakti sects, write of the feeling of seperation from the Divine. The Japanese have literature dealing with sorrow measured in 'so many wet sleeves'. And there are many others. It all goes back to the idea that the only true poetry is poetry that has to do with loss. I can't remember how that has been stated better, aphoristically, or by whom, but I agree with it. If you're human, and have a heart, you've experienced the loss of something, and the longing for a reconnection, & re-experience of unity with that something. Some say that longing is at the root of all religious/ mystical experience. And the Irish as I've said (if that is what the author of the thread meant by Celtic) certainly respect and cherish thier poetry of loss. Musically, there is that minor scale thing. It does seem to be a large part of the Irish music tradition, and it does affect ones response. It feels melancholy to the ear. As to Celts, there are such people, no matter what others have said in this thread contrariwise. They probably began in central/east asia and spread throughout Europe and the British Island, north as far as Denmark and South as far as France. There were certainly various tribes of Celtic language speakers, like the Belgae, and it is just as certain that the Romans probably grouped many diverse Celtic language speaking tribes under the umbrella of one tribe knwon as the Celtae. But there were certainly a couple of invasions of Celtic speaking people into the Islands at various times, the so-called P-Celts and Q-Celts (a language differentiation, certainly as has been stated by others) and it it just as true that there is probably no pure strain of such after all these years and invasions of Vikings, Angles, Saxons, etc. But there well may be some vestige of pure Celtic-ness in the older poetry and oldest music, that survive in various forms of airs and tunes that we recognize today as Irish. |
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06 May 02 - 04:07 PM (#705426) Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy From: GUEST,mr happy mr douglas [are you from the isle of person?[pc correct!]] i've celtic extraction, in fact most of my teeth seem to be extracting themselves voluntarily.[because i enjoy a lot of whisky] however, i wanted to say that i enjoy a lot of whisky too, and despite being some percentage english, beer really doesn't hit the spot. when i was depressed, i couldn't afford to drink much [economic reasons] but when i felt better , whisky especially is really good for singing in company and creating lots of laughs. its possible to be melancholy & happy simultaneously if you don't take yourself tooo seriously. o no, i've drunk all the wixy 'n smoked all the fags- lack a day i'll have to force down some gin 'n roll ups ce la vie! |
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06 May 02 - 04:51 PM (#705449) Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy this from London Times Sunday December 2, 2001, p. 26 GENETIC TESTS REVEAL THE HIDDEN CELTS OF ENGLAND John Elliott and Tom RObbins The Celts of Scotland and Wales are not as unique as some of them like to think. New research has revealed that the majority of Britons living in the South of England share the same DNA as their Celtic counterparts. The findings, based on the DNA analysis of more than 2000 people, poses the strongest challenge yet to the conventional historical view that the ancient Britons were forced out of most of England by hordes of Anglo-Saxon invaders. It suggests that far from being purged and forced to retreat into Wales, Cornwall and Scotland when the Anglo-Saxons invaded in the 5th century, many ancient Britons remained in England. The study, conducted by geneticists at University College London, found that as many as three-quarters of the men tested in some parts of the south of England have the same Y-chromosome as the ancient Britons or Celts, rather that that of the Anglo-Saxons. Overall, the scientists found that between 50% and 75% of those tested in parts of southern England were directly descended from Celts, implying that they had survived the Anglo-Saxon invasioin. In Scotland the proportion of those with Celtic ancestry was found to be little different from the population of southern England. "The evidence is quite strong that there is a substantial indigenous component remaning in England," said Professor David Goldstein, who led the research. "Modern genetics has opened up a powerful window on the past. We can now trace the movements of peoples and address questions that have proved difficult to answer through history and archeology alone." The study, commissioned by BBC2 as part of its Blood of the Vikings series, which concludes on Tuesday, was designed to assess the impact of Norwegian and Danish Vikings, as well as Anglo-Saxons, on the British population. Researchers took swabs of saliva from 2000 people in 30 locations around Britain, and from 400 people in Norway, Denmark, and Schleswig-Holstein, the area in northern Germany identified by the team as a homeland of the Anglo-Saxons. Those taking part had to have lived in the area for at least two generations. Scientists then examined the Y-chromosome, which is passed unchanged down the male line of a family and is thus not altered by intermarriage. The analysis showed that 60% of the men tested on Orkney were descended from Norwegian Vikings, as well as 30% of those in the Hebrides and 15% on the Isle of Man. On the mainland, the survey found that 70% of those tested in York were from the continental European groups rather than the indiginous population, suggesting that the ANglo-Saxon invaders made far more of an impact on the Celts in the north of England. Only 10% of those tested in Wales were of Anglo-Saxon origin, confirming that it has retained an almost exclusively Celtic population. In Recent years the fate of the Celts in England has become hotly debated. Many historians have come to doubt the traditional story about the flight of the Celts from southern England, which was based largely on the account of the 6th-century historian Gildas. "There are various schools of thought ranging from near genocide (of the Celts) to almost total survival," said Patrick Sims-Williams, professor of Celtic studies at the University of Wales. "There could have been mass flight as well-it's partly a matter of scholarly fashion, coming and going from generation to generation."
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06 May 02 - 05:04 PM (#705457) Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy From: GUEST,mr happy bill, not long ago i watced a programme on channel 4 uk about the genetic links between all the humans on earth there was a lot of science but the conclusion was that we're all related to each other as homo sapiens regardless of later adaptations leading to physical racial characteristics i also saw a survey on another tv item about how much viking genes existed in the present day in the wirral peninsula [cheshire 'n wirral counties] of north west england. apart from some links in neston, there were scarcely any, despite the fact that almost all settlements in this area have place names linked to scandinavia. |
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06 May 02 - 07:26 PM (#705570) Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy From: Lonesome EJ Bill, thanks for showing us that piece on Celtic DNA. Linguist and historian Jean Markale,in his book The Celts uses common words in the remaining Celtic languages (Cornish,Welsh,Breton,Irish,Manx,and Scots Gaelic) to identify place-names throughout Europe,to gauge the extent of Celtic settlement which reached it's peak just prior to the expansion of the Roman Empire.He uses coins found in archaeological digs throughout the continent,whose characteristic Celtic design includes concentric circles,chevrons,and triskels, to further determine the presence of a Celtic Culture.That it was a tribal culture,disunified and with war commonplace among the separate segments,does not negate the fact that there existed a commonality of culture,language,and likely of racial characteristics among the people we now call the Celts.Markale believes that these people migrated out of the area south of Jutland,over thousands of years supplanting the aboriginal inhabitants of Europe. Markale believes that these aboriginal people,the Tuatha Danaan of Irish legend as an example,were the monument builders who erected Stonehenge and the hundreds of standing stones and stone circles still found throughout Europe.These people were driven to the fringes of Europe,its wildernesses and Western Islands,and became the gods and heroes of the Celtic myths. After the collapse of the Roman Empire,the Celts in turn were driven to their island,peninsula, and mountain sanctuaries by the westward migration of the Germanic tribes.In Britain,for example,the western and northern extremes of Ireland,Wales,Cornwall and Scotland were the last vestiges of the British Isles held by the Celts as the waves of Saxons and Angles swept in from the east. There is additional evidence that this westward mass migration also influenced a Celtic exodus to Armorica,or Brittany. |
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06 May 02 - 08:33 PM (#705600) Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy From: McGrath of Harlow And the English have "wistful", which is a hard word to translate. Different languages and different cultures channel the moods differently, but we all of us share them. |
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06 May 02 - 08:42 PM (#705606) Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy From: Malcolm Douglas I wouldn't consider Markale a reliable authority. Too many assumptions, not enough solid evidence. |
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06 May 02 - 09:13 PM (#705619) Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy From: Lonesome EJ Efforts to recreate Celtic History and Culture must of necessity be somewhat speculative, falling closer to Cultural Anthropology than the kind of History, based on artifacts and written history, of the Greeks and Romans. Some of this owing to the fact that the Celts were a relatively unsophisticated people, scattered in tribes across a very diverse topography, and evolving no substantial written literature. Some of this is due to the steamroller effect of Roman Civilization and Conquest. Markale has used oral tradition, distribution of artifacts, and linguistic remnants to construct a theory. Whether one accepts the theory or not, it is based on comprehensive scholarship, and is well documented in his book. |
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06 May 02 - 11:39 PM (#705691) Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy From: GUEST,macca Meanwhile, back with melancholy... I always thought that the biggest single reason for the average Scot (if there is such a thing) suffering (which infers a degree of self-imposed misery.. we're no' happy unless we're greetin') from melancholy is not that Scotland and the weather makes him dour, it's the fact that he has to go to England to get away from it. In extreme cases he has to go even further, say to the Americas or Down Under or one of the other colonies established by the English out of the goodness of their altruistic hearts purely to alleviate suffering in Scotland.... |
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07 May 02 - 06:27 AM (#705801) Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy From: Hrothgar As Dr Johnson said, the finest prospect a Scotsman can behold is the high road to England. :-)) |
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07 May 02 - 08:08 AM (#705845) Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy From: GUEST No substantial written literature? Ireland has the oldest written vernacular literature in Europe. Why is it that the question of ancestry and race (and attributing random human qualities to them) is such an obsession with the English? |
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07 May 02 - 12:03 PM (#705970) Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy From: Lonesome EJ Good point, Guest. I meant historical documentation, like that of Pliny, that would make Celtic history easy to plot. Certainly "Cattle Raid of Cooley" and other like works, even though largely written down after the coming of Christianity to Ireland, are of ancient origin. But I believe that I am right in that the Celtic Tribes evolved no written alphabet of their own. |
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07 May 02 - 12:28 PM (#705985) Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy the Ogham alphabet was quite an invention, I would say, though certainly not used for literature, which we all know was in the bardic, and therefore oral, tradition. But the marginalia in monastic manuscripts was certainly written in what we now call Old Irish and Middle irish, and it is a distinct alphabet designed for the Irish language, and not necessarilly derivative of the Latin. |
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07 May 02 - 12:41 PM (#705995) Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy From: GUEST Welsh and Breton employ the Roman alphabet for writing. The oldest extant Welsh texts are from the 8th cent. A.D. The Irish language is also sometimes referred to as Irish Gaelic and/or Erse. The history of Irish as a literary language falls into three periods: Old Irish (7th–9th cent. A.D.), Middle Irish (10th–16th cent.), and Modern Irish (since the 16th cent.). The alphabet employed today for Irish can be called a variant or a derivative of the Roman alphabet that took shape about the 8th cent. A.D. It has 18 letters: 13 consonants and 5 vowels. The oldest extant Irish texts are inscriptions written in the ogham script. These texts date back to the 5th cent. A.D. or perhaps earlier. The earliest Irish manuscript, the Würzberg Codex, dates back to A.D. 700. The Amra Choluim Chille is believed to be a genuine sixth century manuscript and the Senchas Mór has also been placed in the sixth century by most experts. |
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07 May 02 - 12:54 PM (#705997) Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy From: Lonesome EJ Right, Bill. I hope I'm not seeming to denigrate Celtic or Irish heritage or culture here. What I am talking about are the difficulties inherent in reconstructing the history of a culture which was largely tribal, and whose record has been principally transmitted through oral tradition. The same difficulties beset those who seek to trace the history and culture of many North American Indian groups prior to arrival of Europeans. The fact that we may not know the tribal history of the Cherokee Nation does not diminish the richness of its mythology and traditions. And as far as Irish Literature goes, few countries can match the quality and quantity of material produced by the Irish in the 19th and 20th centuries. |
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07 May 02 - 01:37 PM (#706030) Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy From: GUEST Every culture on the planet has transmitted their traditions and history orally rather than in writing. Writing as a convention for telling histories other than the official histories, is a brand new idea, not an ancient one. The only history early writing tells are sycophantic histories by official writers glorifying the ruling elites. |
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07 May 02 - 02:25 PM (#706065) Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy From: GUEST You aren't denigrating Celtic or Irish heritage and culture Lonesome EJ, just demonstrating your ignorance about it. Try reading some legitimate history. Here is a reading list to start with from UTexas: http://wwwvms.utexas.edu/~jdana/history/celtic.html Not exactly what I would call a paucity of information. |
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07 May 02 - 02:49 PM (#706087) Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy From: DonD From the title of this thread I certainly didn't expect it to Briton my day when I Pict it to read, nor did I hope to be sent into Gaels of laughter with jokes about what Scotsmen wear underneath their Celts but I did think that someone would find an Angle to bring an aspect of Saxon the subject. Are there any more puns to be found or did I Ogham all? |
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07 May 02 - 03:50 PM (#706145) Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy From: GUEST Good on youse there Don. |
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07 May 02 - 03:57 PM (#706154) Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy From: Lonesome EJ Guest, thanks for the U of Texas site. I am familiar with most of the material there, but a re-hash is always helpful. I'm not sure if there's anything there that refutes what I said, or that Markale said for that matter, but if you are aware of some specific instances where I reveal my ignorance, I would appreciate your pointing them out in what I'm sure will be a kind and constructive manner. |
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07 May 02 - 04:09 PM (#706170) Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy From: GUEST I already have corrected you, but you failed to acknowledge that, EJ. First on the "no substantial written literature" remark you made 06-May-02 - 09:13 PM. You responded to that post with "I believe that I am right in that the Celtic Tribes evolved no written alphabet of their own." Both Bill Kennedy and I corrected you on that one. Malcolm is right, Jean Markale is not considered very legit by most Celtic Studies and Irish Studies scholars. Rather, he is grouped in with the Celtic Romantic types. |
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07 May 02 - 04:45 PM (#706193) Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy From: Lonesome EJ Well, Guest this site indicates that extant examples of Ogham date from after the onset of the Christian era, and says that "speculation exists" that the form may pre-date 100 AD. So, in my humble opinion, what you have, Guest, is your own theory regarding Celts originating a written alphabet pre-dating the monks, and therefore I will stand challenged, not "corrected", in my assertion. If you have concrete evidence you can present, it may change my opinion. And I appreciate your view of Markale as a "Celtic Romantic". My contention is that there is nothing on the U of T page that flies in the face of my earlier summation of his theories, particularly in the "Celtic History" section on the U of T site. In fact, that section bears out my basic contention regarding the speculative nature of Celtic History....the primary sources for information on the U of T site are contemporary Roman historians who perceived the Celts on the whole as deranged madmen, and while they were often able to describe attributes of behavior in battle (which they may have observed), their speculations regarding custom, history, origins etc must be approached with at least as much scepticism as Markale's assertions. |
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08 May 02 - 07:02 AM (#706590) Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy From: GUEST,macca Hey Hrothgar, re Johnson's high road to England. Back in seventy-three when I was working in Scotland and applied for promotion, I was told that company policy meant I would have to go to another branch then be transferred back in a new position. Almost thought this was fair enough, till they said I would probably have to go to Huddersfield. I immediately jumped on the trusty old high horse and said that I'd never go as far as England just for promotion over my fellow downtrodden man. So I emigrated and ended up here in Orstrilia........ How are the high and mighty fallen. No wonder I'm melancholic. Oh and PS, I believe it was Johnson who said that oats were fed to the horses in England and the man in SCotland, and Boswell (is that right ?) responded with, "where would you find such horses... and such men" |
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08 May 02 - 10:08 AM (#706663) Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy Edward Davies work, 'Celtic Researches on the Origin, Traditions and Language of the Ancient Britons' (1804)offers some very strong evidence and a decent argument, once you get over the difficulty of the archaic writing style, of ancient writing of the Celts in an alphabet that is distinct from yet related to the Greek and Latin, and predates the adoption of the Roman letters in the 3rd c. One must question a lot of the books premise, that the diffusion of the sons of Noah after the flood can account for a transmission of language from that used by Adam and Eve in the garden of eden, for example. But the ancient sources cited are pretty clear is discussing the use and existence of Gaulish, and other Celtic alphabets before the conquest of Gaul by Caesar. Davies example is pretty good, that because there was an imprecation against using leters to write things down in the Celtic/Druidical society both implies that the society knew of and used a system of letters, and to say otherwise would be like saying that because the Protestants and others refrain from using icons and religious pictures in their worship that the society had no knowledge of or practice of painting or visual arts. Interesting read if you can find it somewhere. |
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08 May 02 - 11:52 AM (#706730) Subject: RE: BS: Celtic melancholy From: Lonesome EJ This statement from the link above would also hint at early origins for Ogham.. In keeping with Druidic concepts, each of the Ogham's twenty letters bears the name of a tree. A-Ailim (Elm), B-Bithe (Birch), C-Coll (Hazel), for example. This is not surprising until it is realized that not all of the twenty plants of the Ogham were found in the post-Christian Celtic world of the British Isles. This fact would seem to lend some credence to the theory that Ogham predates the first century AD. According to Curtis Clark, "If one were to pick a region where the plants of the Ogham were best represented, it would be the valley of the Rhine River, home of the Iron Age La Tené culture that is regarded to be ancestral to the Celts."
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