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17 Apr 01 - 11:08 AM (#442508) Subject: The Foggy Dew - Copywrited? From: Maryrrf I know Foggy Dew (the rebel version) was written by F.P.O'Neil, but does anyone know if it would still be protected by copyright or would it be in the Public Domain by now? I'm not sure how to determine these things. Thanks for your help. |
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18 Apr 01 - 06:32 AM (#443272) Subject: RE: Help: The Foggy Dew - Copywrited? From: GUEST,JTT Probably out of copyright, if it was made immediately after 1916, but not if it was 10 years later - copyright lasts 75 years in Ireland. |
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18 Apr 01 - 07:39 AM (#443300) Subject: RE: Help: The Foggy Dew - Copywrited? From: Robby Hi, According to Lesley Nelson (a.k.a. The Contemplator), the rebel version of The Foggy Dew was written by Canon Charles Nelson, a parish priest in Kilcoo. See, that page of the web site at: www.contemplator.com/folk4/foggydew.html I still have to learn to do that blue clicky thing. Anyway, according to the information at that page, Canon O'Neill was moved to write the song after attending the first meeting of the Irish Parliament in 1919. The page also says that it was recorded by John McCormack in 1913, but that is incorrect. According to the John McCormack web site, he recorded it in 1923. So it appears that the Foggy Dew (rebel version) would have been written sometime between 1919 and 1923. Hope that helps, Robby |
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18 Apr 01 - 09:03 AM (#443347) Subject: RE: Help: The Foggy Dew - Copywrited? From: Maryrrf Thank you both for your help. I saw that recording by John McCormack and wondered how in the heck he could have recorded it in 1913 when it was about a rebellion that started in 1916! I haven't found anything to indicate that it is copyrighted. And my CD will probably have very limited sales so I think it will be okay to include it! |
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18 Apr 01 - 10:48 AM (#443400) Subject: RE: Help: The Foggy Dew - Copywrited? From: Robby Hi, again, Maryrrf, After leaving my last message I went back to the McCormack Home Page (www.jump.net/~pwworth) and checked the alpha listing of his recordings (www.jump.net/~pwworth/alpha-am.html#F). That listing shows two recordings by McCormack titled The Foggy Dew. The first begins with the line "Oh, a wane cloud was drawn o'er the dim weeping dawn". It is, apparently subtitled An Ode To The River Shannon" and is attributed to Alfred Perceval Graves, set to an Old Irish Air and arranged by Sir Charles Villiers Stanford. It was recorded in 1904. The second begins with the line "A' down the hill I went one morn...". It is attributed to E. Milligan/C. Milligan Fox, and arranged by Spencer Clay. This was recorded in January of 1913. Query to other 'Catters, could it be that the Contemplator's reference to McCormack's 1913 recording of The Foggy Dew is an indication that Canon O'Neill wrote his poem about the the 1916 Easter Rebellion so as to fit the earlier tune used by Milligan-Fox? Robby |
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18 Apr 01 - 11:17 AM (#443416) Subject: RE: Help: The Foggy Dew - Copywrited? From: Jimmy C Re the McCormick recording - This is not the "rebel Version" but an older English ballad. I have the recording of McCormick singing "A' down the hill I went one morn" etc. as Robby stated above and it is a beautiful sad love song, definitely not the song about the 1916 insurrection.. I am not even sure if McCormick recorded the rebel version at all. ?. |
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18 Apr 01 - 11:51 AM (#443445) Subject: RE: Help: The Foggy Dew - Copywrited? From: Robby This get's curiouser and curiouser. According to Lesley Nelson's information at her Foggy Dew (2) page www.contemplator.com/folk4/foggydew.html she gives the source of tune used by Canon O'Neill as being from a manuscript that had been in the possession of one Kathleen Dallat, which gave Carl Hardebeck as the arranger. I have not been successful in finding an e-mail address for her, and no e-mail link was found at her Folk Music of England, Ireland, Scotland, Wales and America web site, to see if she could shed some light on this. |
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18 Apr 01 - 12:08 PM (#443474) Subject: RE: Help: The Foggy Dew - Copywrited? From: GUEST,JTT The "As down the glen one Easter morn" version is certainly post-1916, because it has the lines "Or had he died by Pearse's side, or fighting with Cathal Brugha". The Pearse is Patrick Pearse, one of the 1916 leaders; Cathal Brugha was one of the 1916 officers, who later died when he came out from hiding with both guns blazing and was shot down; a little tiny man but a spark of bravery. |
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18 Apr 01 - 03:22 PM (#443661) Subject: RE: Help: The Foggy Dew - Copywrited? From: Robby I did find an address for Lesley Nelson and gave her the information on McCormack's 1913 recording. If I get any reply, I'll post it to this thread. Robby |
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18 Apr 01 - 04:04 PM (#443691) Subject: RE: Help: The Foggy Dew - Copywrited? From: Robby For anyone who's interested, there is an old thread "RE: The Foggy Dew", begun in November of 1997, which provides some information on the words used in the version about the Easter Rebellion of 1916. This thread also contains the words to the lyrics of the song recorded by John McCormack in 1913. I haven't masterd html yet, and can't find my cheat sheet or I'd have given you a little blue clicky thing. Can someone help on that? Thanks, Robby |
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18 Apr 01 - 06:12 PM (#443800) Subject: RE: Help: The Foggy Dew - Copywrited? From: Bernard Pedant alert!! Copywrite is what authors do - writing copy! Copyright is the correct term - protecting the authors rights...
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18 Apr 01 - 06:18 PM (#443804) Subject: RE: Help: The Foggy Dew - Copywrited? From: Bernard Here's the clicky |
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18 Apr 01 - 08:54 PM (#443937) Subject: RE: Help: The Foggy Dew - Copywrited? From: GUEST,Robby Thanks Bernard. Unfortunately that was not the thread I was referencing. The one I was trying to direct people to was started in November of 1997 by leprechaun. The one you provided the blue clicky for started later than that. Robby (from his home computer, as opposed to his day job) |
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18 Apr 01 - 10:40 PM (#444029) Subject: RE: Help: The Foggy Dew - Copywrited? From: GUEST,maryrrf I realized I had misspelled it (copywrite) but it was too late - already posted! |
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19 Apr 01 - 07:40 AM (#444228) Subject: RE: Help: The Foggy Dew - Copywrited? From: Robby OK. I found my html cheat sheet and the location of that old thread, so I'll try to give you a clicky to that location. Click here Now to find out how I did. But if I messed it up, the information is there for you to get to the older thread. Robby (whose back at his day job) |
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26 Sep 24 - 09:44 PM (#4208898) Subject: RE: Help: The Foggy Dew (Fr. O'Neill): Copyrighted? From: GUEST,Stephanie Bennett, Los Angeles https://www.ipoi.gov.ie/en/types-of-ip/copyright1/understanding-copyright/duration-of-copyright-protection/ the Irish copyright office states: Literary, dramatic, musical and artistic works and original databases: Copyright protection expires 70 years after the death of the author/creator. O'Neill died in 1963 so it will become public domain in 2033. However, it seems he used the melody of an older Irish tune, "Banks of the Murlough Side" (according to https://www.irishcentral.com/roots/history/foggy-dew-song-history) so perhaps the music is public domain... |
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26 Sep 24 - 09:48 PM (#4208899) Subject: RE: Help: The Foggy Dew (Fr. O'Neill): Copyrighted? From: GUEST,Stephanie Bennett However, https://www.pdinfo.com/public-domain-music-list.php states that "Any Song or Musical Work Published in 1928 or Earlier is in the Public Domain in the USA." And the Foggy Dew (Charles O'Neill) was apparently published in 1919 so it would be public domain in the US. |
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27 Sep 24 - 11:12 AM (#4208928) Subject: RE: Help: The Foggy Dew (Fr. O'Neill): Copyrighted? From: GUEST,Stephanie Bennett further info on the many "Foggy Dew"s! The version recorded by John McCormack in 1913 is indeed called "The Foggy Dew" and is the same MUSIC as the song about the 1916 uprising... but it's a completely different set of LYRICS - a love song! So Charles O'Neill reused not just the music but also the title from this love song when he wrote the revolutionary version. Here is McCormack's recording of the love song on YouTube (You don't need a blue clicky; just copy this URL and paste it into a browser.) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ddp2xivfOU4&t=52s Unfortunately for those of us looking for copyright info, "The Foggy Dew" MUSIC in the 1840 book The Ancient Music of Ireland is a completely different melody, not the one we're talking about. So... the revolutionary LYRICS by O'Neill are protected in IRELAND till 2033, but already public domain in the USA. As for the MUSIC, I haven't found any reference to a composer but I guess it's pretty safe to call it 'traditional'. If that turns out to be a misunderstanding, it can be rectified after the fact. Look up the case of Paul Simon and El Condor Pasa. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_C%C3%B3ndor_Pasa_(song) As for the subject of the same title having many different melodies attached to it and a melody having several titles attached to it, Lewis Carroll had this to say in THROUGH THE LOOKING GLASS: [knight] The name of the song is called "HADDOCKS' EYES."' 'Oh, that's the name of the song, is it?' Alice said, trying to feel interested. 'No, you don't understand,' the Knight said, looking a little vexed. 'That's what the name is CALLED. The name really IS "THE AGED AGED MAN."' 'Then I ought to have said "That's what the SONG is called"?' Alice corrected herself. 'No, you oughtn't: that's quite another thing! The SONG is called "WAYS AND MEANS": but that's only what it's CALLED, you know!' 'Well, what IS the song, then?' said Alice, who was by this time completely bewildered. 'I was coming to that,' the Knight said. 'The song really IS "A-SITTING ON A GATE": and the tune's my own invention.' -- Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass |