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15 May 01 - 11:56 AM (#462795) Subject: Total BS: Hijacked words. From: Dave the Gnome I just read something I find quite amusing. It probably links to the 'Lyric drift' discussion we had in that there are some words we should no longer use. Anyhow. general drift is a firm of solicitors have put ads in gents and ladies loo's/washrooms/bogs(insert your own expresion.) They are selling their expertise in divorce litigation. The ones in the gents say "Ditch the bitch" and the ones in the ladies say "All men are bastards". A spokesperson for a womens rights group has said "We object to both these adverts, but the use of the word 'bitch' has more negative connotations than 'bastard'." Now I am not commenting on the ads, or the firm who placed them or the rights and wrongs but am I alone in thinking we now have another word we cannot use in songs? Heaven help anyone who feels the need to sing a fox hunting song containing the line 'My gay black bitch had Reynard by the head' I think I'll have to go and write one;-) Cheers Dave the Gnome |
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15 May 01 - 12:14 PM (#462818) Subject: RE: Total BS: Hijacked words. From: Clinton Hammond I don't let people tell me what words I can and cannot use... I prefer to think for myself! |
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15 May 01 - 12:25 PM (#462823) Subject: RE: Total BS: Hijacked words. From: Kim C I think perhaps within the context of divorce, those are fightin' words, and only serve to cause more pain and anger where there is probably enough already. Both expressions bash both genders, and I probably wouldn't do business with those people. However, in songwriting, it's a whole different ball game. It depends on what you're trying to get across. What's the story you're trying to tell? Write away, Mr. Gnome! |
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15 May 01 - 12:59 PM (#462870) Subject: RE: Total BS: Hijacked words. From: kendall I did a gig at a place called THE BLACK BITCH in Linlithgow Scotland. I thought the name was "quaint" but I also knew it was being used in its' proper sense. We Americans do have a way with words dont we? |
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15 May 01 - 01:03 PM (#462877) Subject: RE: Total BS: Hijacked words. From: mousethief I was once told it was okay to call men "Guys" but it was not okay to use any other noun except "women" for women. One begins to wonder exactly what is being communicated by such extremism. Alex |
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15 May 01 - 01:07 PM (#462882) Subject: RE: Total BS: Hijacked words. From: Kim C I'm a girl. Feel free to call me a girl. Not all women are girls, though, and some object to being called such. Bully for them. I'm definitely not a dame, although sometimes I am a bitch and will freely admit to it. Most of the time, though, I'm a girl. And once in awhile, I actually get accused of being a lady. :-) |
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15 May 01 - 01:10 PM (#462886) Subject: RE: Total BS: Hijacked words. From: mousethief She didn't even like the word "gal" which I consider the exact parallel of "guy". I'll call somebody whatever they like to be called, within reason. I've seen a bumper sticker that says approximately, "You call me a bitch like that's something bad." Alex |
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15 May 01 - 01:23 PM (#462895) Subject: RE: Total BS: Hijacked words. From: jeffp I've also seen bitch claimed to be an acronym for Babe In Total Charge of Herself. jeffp |
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15 May 01 - 01:29 PM (#462903) Subject: RE: Total BS: Hijacked words. From: Mrrzy I've never understood the American dislike for the word Woman. When I refer to my female undergraduates as women, I am told I make them uncomfortable (my take is, you women better get used to being women!) - it seems as if a "woman" is BY DEFINITION sexual, as if I called them Walking Vulvas or something. I don't get it. I also object to insults that aren't on point - that is, if a woman is being a jerk, calling her a bitch just means she's being a jerk AND a woman, and the fact that she's a woman is irrelevant, to me. I would use Bitch for specifically FEMALE jerk-ness. So in this context (Ditch Her), it is a propos and the mot juste. And some things in English, too... |
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15 May 01 - 01:29 PM (#462904) Subject: RE: Total BS: Hijacked words. From: Kim C Gal is okay... I think for me it has some negative childhood connotations, because when I had done something wrong, my mother would say, "you better watch it, little gal." Or "young lady." Those expressions make me feel like I'm in trouble! ;-) |
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15 May 01 - 01:37 PM (#462911) Subject: RE: Total BS: Hijacked words. From: GUEST,Karen I never really cared for being called "gal". I don't know why. When I got in trouble my mom would say, "Now see here, Lady Jane." I have no idea what the problem with "woman" is. Maybe because we had to rely on the word "man" to form the word "woman"? You know how some "gals" hate relying on guys for anything.... |
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15 May 01 - 01:44 PM (#462918) Subject: RE: Total BS: Hijacked words. From: Kim C I don't have a problem with woman. I am one. It seems anymore, though, that some people have a problem with everything that isn't "woman." Of course, "I am woman hear me roar" made the word a little hokey... |
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15 May 01 - 01:45 PM (#462919) Subject: RE: Total BS: Hijacked words. From: sophocleese Dave the Gnome you may not be commenting on the ads themselves but you are commenting on those who object to them. You are misapplying their objection to another medium in an attempt to ridicule it. Use the word bitch if you want to in a song but don't expect every person who hears it to like it. Both ads are offensive in their own way and I wouldn't put them up in any public place. I'm not sure whether bitch or bastard is more offensive. We'd either have to compare "All men are bastards" to "All women are bitches" or, "Ditch the bitch" to "Dump the bastard" to find out. |
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15 May 01 - 01:51 PM (#462922) Subject: RE: Total BS: Hijacked words. From: mousethief I don't see that either is objectively more offensive. Clearly "bitch" is more offensive if you're a woman and "bastard" is more offensive if you're a man. Apart from the original meanings, both have come to mean roughly "annoying person whom I greatly dislike of the [male/female] gender" (gender depending on the term, of course). I've heard gay men call other gay men "bitch" -- not being polite either; it was a term of great opprobrium. So perhaps that term will eventually even lose its gender-specificity. Alex |
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15 May 01 - 02:06 PM (#462941) Subject: RE: Total BS: Hijacked words. From: Mrrzy Yes, I am unclear on the gay uses of bitch, which don't seem to make semantic sense... if that makes sense! Also, nowadays, bastardry is really moot, isn't it? I mean, outside of royalty? Does anyone else have a stake in whether you were conceived in wedlock or not? I know a lot of never-married parents... I don't consider their kids bastards, unless they are being masculine jerks. I like the word Jerk. Wanna bet somebody objects to that one too? |
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15 May 01 - 02:10 PM (#462945) Subject: RE: Total BS: Hijacked words. From: Clinton Hammond I'm pretty sure the gay use of 'bitch' is sorta the same as the use of 'pillow biter'... it implies someone who can be or is easily used and discarded... At least that's the sence I've had when I've heard my gay chummers use it... Besides, bitch is such a great word to say... why wouldn't you want to use it? :-) |
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15 May 01 - 02:11 PM (#462947) Subject: RE: Total BS: Hijacked words. From: mousethief I've heard that the semi-political group Wankers Are Normal Kids (WANK) is opposed to the word "Jerk" but I've never met anybody from that group (at least that I was aware of) to actually ask them face-to-face. Alex |
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15 May 01 - 02:18 PM (#462950) Subject: RE: Total BS: Hijacked words. From: GUEST,Karen Even though at times I thoroughly enjoy calling someone else a "jerk" I'd rather be called a "bitch" than a "jerk". A "bitch" still retains some level of intelligence whereas a "jerk" doesn't. I don't mind acting "bitchy" but I don't want to act "like a jerk". My gay friends call women they don't like "cows". I don't like that term at all. Of course, I've been called "moron" in another thread but that's another story! ;-) |
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15 May 01 - 02:27 PM (#462961) Subject: RE: Total BS: Hijacked words. From: mousethief Karen, you've got moron the ball than most people I know! Alex |
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15 May 01 - 02:32 PM (#462968) Subject: RE: Total BS: Hijacked words. From: GUEST,Karen Oh Alex, you smooth talker, you! |
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15 May 01 - 03:19 PM (#462992) Subject: RE: Total BS: Hijacked words. From: Dave the Gnome No story to tell realy, Kim C. Just my weird sense of humour I guess. And you are quite right of course, Sophocleese. It is a mis-application but I can assure you that it is not to ridicle anyone. I think the ads are offensive as well. The best place for them is in the toilets where they are but it is the message I find offensive, not the words. I find it far more offensive for the PC police to tell me some terms are worse than others. I think I can figure that one out myself! But, hey! It was a joke anyway. Lighten up guys and gals, whoops, women and men, boys and girls. Oh sheesh.... I'm in a hole. Stop digging..... Cheers DtG |
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15 May 01 - 04:23 PM (#463033) Subject: RE: Total BS: Hijacked words. From: Kim C you're right, Dave, it is the message, and not necessarily the words. I wholeheartedly agree. :-) |
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15 May 01 - 04:45 PM (#463047) Subject: RE: Total BS: Hijacked words. From: Amergin Guest, Karen...I always figgered you to be a good gal... |
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15 May 01 - 04:50 PM (#463052) Subject: RE: Total BS: Hijacked words. From: GUEST,Karen Gee thanks, Amergin! But really, I feel we know each other well enough now that you can call me by my first name....Guest.:-O |
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15 May 01 - 04:53 PM (#463053) Subject: RE: Total BS: Hijacked words. From: Chicken Charlie On the topic of "bastard," mentioned somewhere above, I was informed by an editor last week that I could not refer to anyone as "illegitimate" in a newspaper piece. I had to say "person born out of wedlock." I can imagine what would have transpired if I had said "bastard." What I need to do is come up with some relevant tie-in to the Norman Conquest so I can submit an article on "William the Bastard." As for "bitches," I own two, and they don't seem to care what I call them, as long as a walk, a ride or a dog biscuit is involved. Sexism aside, I cannot think of any phrase that could possibly replace the deathless sentiment, "Life's a bitch, and then you die," or the verb "to bitch about." Once upon a time, a "guy" was kind of a low-life, but for a long time it's been a good generic term for men. Am I alone in the opinion that it is being enlarged again into just "people," regardless of gender? Probably. I'm alone in a lot of things. ;) Question for KimC--When you were called a lady, how far were you from your bread machine?? CC |
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15 May 01 - 04:55 PM (#463054) Subject: RE: Total BS: Hijacked words. From: Irish sergeant The message seems quite offensive to me. Those are the types of lawyers William shakespeare was talking about when he advocated killing all the lawyers. Both bitch and bastard seem mutually offensive to me. That doesn't mean I don't use them when I feel some one deserves it (Most of the time in traffic) in songs? Hell art is just that kick ass and take names! Show the bastards and bitches just who you are! Give 'em Hell Dave. Especially the government who makes a hobby out of trying to censor people. Kindest reguards, Neil |
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15 May 01 - 05:27 PM (#463079) Subject: RE: Total BS: Hijacked words. From: Kim C Charlie!!!!! ROFL!!!!! Just recently one of my pards referred to me as a "tough little lady." But he was joking about how manly of a cigar I could smoke so I don't know what that means. And you know very well I don't own one of those satanic contraptions. ;-) (I did smoke the whole cigar, by the way, and lived to tell about it.) I do have a couple of bitches, though. Actually I guess only one is technically a bitch since the other one is spayed. Oh well. I agree with Neil - I don't think I'd want to market myself that way. Sure it's memorable, but is that really how you want people to remember you? Not me. |
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15 May 01 - 05:49 PM (#463095) Subject: RE: Total BS: Hijacked words. From: GUEST,Critick Kendall - yeah you americans have a way with words but in your post in your attempt to be gramatically correct - oops :) its is possessive [the one you meant] it's ALWAYS & ONLY means "it is" its', if it existed would be like yourn and y'all -- good amarikan english --defender of Canadian English |
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15 May 01 - 06:14 PM (#463119) Subject: RE: Total BS: Hijacked words. From: Bill D ...as long as it isn't the silly 'womyn' which ranks right up there with 'kewl' and does NOTHING to make the feminine gender any clearer |
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15 May 01 - 06:39 PM (#463157) Subject: RE: Total BS: Hijacked words. From: Gary T Actually, Critick, "it's" can mean "it is" or "it has," as in "it's been a long day." |
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15 May 01 - 07:39 PM (#463204) Subject: RE: Total BS: Hijacked words. From: katlaughing Ah, BillD, ya broke my heart. So ya don't like my kewl or my wimmin??!! What a bytch! While attending a conference on diversity, I took part in a 3 person discussion. One of the others was a professor from Afica; he'd come from the bigwigs of his tribe and had much to relate about classism, etc. in his country. One thing he pointed out was use of language. I had been sitting there referring to everyone as "you guys" when he asked me to really think about it. Mind you, we were really paying close attention to language and being inclusive at this conference. He pointed out that I really was leaving out the majority of participants that w/end, as most of us were wimmin and most definitely not "guys." When I asked what he would suggest, he said he uses "folks." So, when I think of it, I do try to use "folks/phoaks" instead. There's no harm in it. kat |
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15 May 01 - 07:50 PM (#463207) Subject: RE: Total BS: Hijacked words. From: Peg Clinton; do us all a favor and don't presume to speak for the gay community. You clearly do not have ANY idea what you are talking about. All that "thinking" for yourself does not seem to amount to much...
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15 May 01 - 10:48 PM (#463323) Subject: RE: Total BS: Hijacked words. From: Ebbie As an older woman, closer to the source, so to speak, I have a small problem with 'bitch' {Hmmm... I don't have as much of a problem with 'bastard' :)} Since I'm a bit of a pedant, too, my first response is always to remember where bitch came from, its original implication. When in heat, a bitch will take on any male and can be impregnated by multiple (Hey! What is the equivalent name for the male dog? I think it is simply 'dog'.) partners during a single heat. Therefore someone calling a woman a bitch is implying a specific character. Bastard simply means a person born out of wedlock and says nothing about character. I recognize that language including epithets changes over time and that even in a single lifetime can evolve enough not to be recognizable as its original. (Look at 'pissed'!) Ebbie |
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15 May 01 - 11:03 PM (#463328) Subject: RE: Total BS: Hijacked words. From: kendall Critic, why should I be the only one here who uses proper grammar? Dont be a Chauvanist, broads hate that. |
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15 May 01 - 11:30 PM (#463353) Subject: RE: Total BS: Hijacked words. From: Ebbie It's spelled 'chauvinist', Kendall. :) |
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15 May 01 - 11:40 PM (#463362) Subject: RE: Total BS: Hijacked words. From: Murray MacLeod Ebbie, I swear I am not being facetious here, I did not know that one litter can have multiple sires, my cocker spaniel bitch had a litter nine weeks ago, which I now realise must have been the result of a gang rape ......(none of the surviving puppies look like any of the others) Murray |
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16 May 01 - 12:07 AM (#463380) Subject: RE: Total BS: Hijacked words. From: Clinton Hammond Shows what you know peg |
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16 May 01 - 02:19 AM (#463516) Subject: RE: Total BS: Hijacked words. From: Ebbie It wasn't a rape, Murray... |
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16 May 01 - 09:18 AM (#463666) Subject: RE: Total BS: Hijacked words. From: GUEST,MMario yes, dogs and cats both can have multiple sires in a litter |
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16 May 01 - 09:28 AM (#463676) Subject: RE: Total BS: Hijacked words. From: kendall I know I didn't spell it right, that was part of the humor. Too subtle I guess. It was meant to be like Spaw posting as his redneck alter ego...Oh, never mind. |
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16 May 01 - 09:46 AM (#463688) Subject: RE: Total BS: Hijacked words. From: Kim C It's my understanding, though, that while a bitch can have more than one sire for a litter, that she doesn't necessarily mate with every Dog that comes along. Sometimes she says no. Am I wrong about that? |
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16 May 01 - 10:02 AM (#463702) Subject: RE: Total BS: Hijacked words. From: GUEST,Karen The neighbors had a dog we nicknamed "Rabbit". She didn't say "no" to any dog. I think she had five litters before they finally got her fixed. |
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16 May 01 - 10:22 AM (#463723) Subject: RE: Total BS: Hijacked words. From: Bill D BTW, kat...and others...did you know there is actually a little freeware program to allow automated cutesy typing? Figgers, huh? go take a look (I may regret this) here is what it will do in .04 seconds....KåT£åüghïñg mïghT £ïKê Thï§ |
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16 May 01 - 10:42 AM (#463745) Subject: RE: Total BS: Hijacked words. From: katlaughing Well, you may regret it, because some of it is kewl, but I couldn't get the elite to work and I can do my own sdrawkcab and rAndOM CaPS. Honestly, Bill, I didn't use "kewl" until I came to the Mudcat and I didn't know it was used elsewhere. Guess I just haven't surfed as much as you. If it bothers you a whole bunch, I will quit doing it.:-) kat |
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16 May 01 - 11:00 AM (#463772) Subject: RE: Total BS: Hijacked words. From: MMario yes - bitches and queens (female cat) quite often display definate preferences - and will refuse some males. Rabbit does not infrequently will castrate bucks they don't like if the buck persists in attempting to mate. |
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16 May 01 - 11:16 AM (#463790) Subject: RE: Total BS: Hijacked words. From: Bill D and to be honest, kat, I was writing generally above...not picking on YOU...*grin*...bother me? no more than having someone say "ya know" every 5th word...you get used to it..*shrug*...it sure isn't a major issue! And it is very hard here to 'show' you my expression and the degree and depth of my bemusement at the vagaries of life. I am MUCH more concerned about the use of the forum for various threads about religion, alien infestation and healing ..and that has been MUCH less of a problem lately as 'phoaks' have found other ways to share these interests. *smile* (I have been parodied for using ellipsis ......and *grins*....in my posts) |
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16 May 01 - 11:24 AM (#463797) Subject: RE: Total BS: Hijacked words. From: Kim C Okay, so does that mean we won't be able to use "queen" anymore? Don't want to be accused of inferring that someone is catty, after all. ;-) |
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16 May 01 - 11:41 AM (#463818) Subject: RE: Total BS: Hijacked words. From: GUEST,bbc at work I am perfectly happy to be referred to as a woman; it's what I am. I don't particularly like "lady," as it has various meanings, depending on who is using it. I also don't mind being referred to casually (for instance, in a mixed group, as "guys"), assuming it is respectful. That's the point for me, I think. In referring to both men & women, let's be accurate & respectful. I think the words we use matter. bbc, who happens to be a woman, but is a person 1st |
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16 May 01 - 11:55 AM (#463836) Subject: RE: Total BS: Hijacked words. From: katlaughing we are all just human beans..*sigh*......:-) |
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16 May 01 - 12:13 PM (#463858) Subject: RE: Total BS: Hijacked words. From: Mrrzy People do say Guys for groups of men or women, but A guy is usually male. Most generic animal terms are the specific term for the male, thus dog is generic, bitch is specifically female. Some have enough terms that there is a generic, a specific male, and a specific female (horse, stallion/gelding, mare; yea even unto the next generation - foal=baby/child, colt=boy, filly=girl). Cattle are the only ones generically referred to by the specific term for the female - cows. ANY animal that has sex, doesn't mate for life (and even then...) and has more than one offspring/pregnancy can have different fathers for the different offspring. You can have sex with three guys (male ones), have triplets, and each can have a different father. Off topic: you (women) can have twins (or more) that are identical on your side and fraternal on their father's/fathers' - single egg splits and the daughter cells are subsequently fertilized. These can then still have different fathers, if you are fast (in any sense you want)! |
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16 May 01 - 12:38 PM (#463886) Subject: RE: Total BS: Hijacked words. From: GUEST,Karen The daughter of my babysitter was remarking on how alike my two children look. I came very close to quipping, "That's because they have the same father" but then luckily before the words could leave my mouth remembered her own three children each had a different father. I AM learning in my old age some tact! |
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16 May 01 - 12:46 PM (#463891) Subject: RE: Total BS: Hijacked words. From: jeffp Ducks are another species referred to by the female name. The name for the male is drake. Any others? jeffp |
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16 May 01 - 12:54 PM (#463903) Subject: RE: Total BS: Hijacked words. From: mousethief Interesting question, JeffP.
Generic - Male - - Female Alex |
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16 May 01 - 01:27 PM (#463957) Subject: RE: Total BS: Hijacked words. From: Matt_R "Ram Ewe". Heh. |
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16 May 01 - 01:28 PM (#463959) Subject: RE: Total BS: Hijacked words. From: mousethief Matt, get your mind out of the gutter, you oversexed teenager, you! |
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16 May 01 - 02:04 PM (#463997) Subject: RE: Total BS: Hijacked words. From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Critic, you amuse me. Canadians speak a mixture of English and American (languages according to Mencken)and often call some word or phrase American usage when both come from England or elsewhere in the British Isles. Another communicant is correct when he states bitch and bastard have additional meanings not related to sex or parentage. Consult the latest edition of the Oxford English Dictionary or Merriam Webster. In the latter, bastard yields "an offensive or disagreeable person." In the former (1987 entries), such usage was still called vulgar but extended to mean something "annoying." I don't have the latest OED but I have heard that the "vulgar" appellation has been removed. Bitch, in newer dictionaries, similarly has all of the meanings attributed in messages above. |
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16 May 01 - 04:54 PM (#464127) Subject: RE: Total BS: Hijacked words. From: Dave the Gnome bbc - you may be a person first? Shouldn't that be first person (singular) Ahhhh - sorry. Just got it. Grandma and spilling was never my strong point at scholl... tGD |
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16 May 01 - 05:55 PM (#464165) Subject: RE: Total BS: Hijacked words. From: Matt Woodbury/Mimosa Just a note on the gay usage, sometimes we do this silly thing where we refer to people by the opposite of their anatomical gender, so then "bitch" has all the same connotations it can have when used referring to a woman.
If I use it with my friends, it might be considered cute and teasing, with a stranger, it's still rude, sexist, and condescending.
It looks to me like the ads are deliberately designed to create dissent, which is what lawyers make money from. Maybe we should stop calling them lawyers and call them strifemongers instead?
I have friends in the legal profession who are really decent people, BTW. Mimosa |
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16 May 01 - 06:59 PM (#464212) Subject: RE: Total BS: Hijacked words. From: Uncle_DaveO It is true that one meaning of "duck" is the female of that particular kind of bird. Another established usage, though, is "hen duck" to distinguish her from the gander. Before anyone screams at that, my unabridged says of "hen" something like "also the female of any fowl, especially gallinaceous fowl." Dave Oesterreich |
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16 May 01 - 08:07 PM (#464278) Subject: RE: Total BS: Hijacked words. From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) In England, I have heard women referred to as "duckies," not disparagingly. "Let's go to the pub, duckies." I don't know if there is an equivalent for men. Drakes just doesn't make it. |
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16 May 01 - 11:25 PM (#464381) Subject: RE: Total BS: Hijacked words. From: Ebbie Dave O, I have read references to a 'bull cow', as well as 'Papa Cow'. My cousins were so "refined" that they were not allowed to say bull, they had to say 'ox', which, I think, forced extra attention to the animal's sex. I suppose the same thing is true of all euphemisms. Ebbie |
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17 May 01 - 01:49 AM (#464431) Subject: RE: Total BS: Hijacked words. From: Bert Kim C, no, you are not wrong, a bitch will often refuse a dog that she doesn't like. So Ebbie, did you cousins exclaim "Oxshit!" This is just so much semantics. What does it matter? I remember a TV show one time where the guy said to his gal "You're not a bad old boiler!" and it came across as a loving statement. For me - ladies, women, womyn, wimmin, girls, gals and even bitches. I love them all. |
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17 May 01 - 02:13 AM (#464444) Subject: RE: Total BS: Hijacked words. From: Ebbie Strangely enough, Bert, they did say shit. We, on the other hand, said 'manure'. (That of course was in cool-headed moments.) People. Fascinating- nothing like them. Eb |
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17 May 01 - 05:25 AM (#464504) Subject: RE: Total BS: Hijacked words. From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler Multiple parentage: "May be funny, honey Sure seems strange to me We got seven children And none of them look like me" ("Gonna move to the outskirts of town") BTW "me duck" is a form of address common to the East Midlands of the UK (as "our kid" is to the West Midlands and "chuck" in Lancashire) applied to both sexes. I used to call all females "love" and men,"mate" at home in Birmingham as everyone else did. When I moved away to Wales, I found this was interpreted as an unwelcomed endearment! RtS |
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17 May 01 - 08:46 AM (#464554) Subject: RE: Total BS: Hijacked words. From: Crazy Eddie Mrrzy said "ANY animal that has sex, doesn't mate for life (and even then...) and has more than one offspring/pregnancy can have different fathers for the different offspring. You can have sex with three guys (male ones), have triplets, and each can have a different father." There is a paragraph in today's "Gulf News" about a woman in South America who brought a paternaty suit against a former boyfriend for support of her twins. Genetic tests showed that he was the father of the boy, but not of the girl!
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17 May 01 - 09:56 AM (#464596) Subject: RE: Total BS: Hijacked words. From: Kim C Oxshit!!! I like that one! :-D |
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17 May 01 - 02:27 PM (#464883) Subject: RE: Total BS: Hijacked words. From: Songster Bob A propos of much in this thread is an old admonition: When you find yourself in a hole, STOP DIGGING. Bob C. |
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17 May 01 - 09:06 PM (#465142) Subject: RE: Total BS: Hijacked words. From: Peg Canada geese mate for life. They mourn mightily when a mate is killed...
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