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22 Jun 01 - 02:02 PM (#489846) Subject: Is this guy worth a second chance? From: Peter K (Fionn) Sorry for a mega-long post - hope Shorty & Co don't fall over. I don't push every death sentence up your noses, but this one's worth the reading for anyone half interested in these things. It points to a standard of justice even worse than we now get in the UK, and I'm sure there will be one or two Mudcatters at least, each side of the pond, prepared to put metaphorical pen to paper - for which, thanks in advance. How to take action is at the bottom of the post, and maybe you'd refresh the thread too. If you think the guy has gotta go, I'm not going to argue. We've had some useful debates about capital punishment in other threads, so no need to do it all again here.
Everything after this sentence to the end of the post is copied (with minor editing by me) from a briefing put out by Amnesty International, Amnesty being one of those rare organisations that can, occasionally, actually make a difference.
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22 June 2001: UA 156/01 Death penalty / Legal concern
Napoleon Beazley, 24, is due to be executed in Texas 15 August 2001. He was sentenced to death 1995 for a murder in Tyler, Smith County, committed when he was 17.
The murder victim was John Luttig, white, the father of a federal appellate judge. One of the trial jurors appears to have been a long-time employee of one of John Luttig's business partners, which was not revealed during jury selection. The jury was all-white despite Smith County's population being 20 per cent African American. Moreover, it has emerged that at least one juror harboured racial bias against blacks. The juror's wife stated in an affidavit: "My husband...is racially prejudiced. I have heard [him] use the word "nigger" on more occasions than not when talking about black people... I would find it difficult to believe that [he] could have set his prejudice aside and not let it influence him to some degree."
There was little basis for the jury's finding of Beazley's "future dangerousness" - a requirement for a death sentence in Texas. He was the runner-up for "most popular" in his secondary school. He had no prior arrest record, and the state produced no evidence of any other assaults by him. It relied on testimony from his two co-defendants - which they later admitted was given in return for a prosecution promise not to pursue the death penalty against them.
Many witnesses, including the District Attorney in Napoleon Beazley's home town, testified about good aspects of his character and his potential for rehabilitation. He has been a model prisoner. Before all death row prisoners were confined to their cells 23 hours a day, Beazley was one of a few "trustees" assigned to jobs within the prison. He remains close to his mother, father,younger brother and other relatives, who visit him regularly.
International law, respected by almost every country in the world, forbids the execution of child offenders - those under 18 at the time of the crime - in recognition of their immaturity, impulsiveness, and capacity for change. In May, Napoleon Beazley's mother said to Amnesty: "People change. You can't hold a 17-year-old by the same standards as me or you...I know Napoleon is much better now than he was then."
Since his trial, the execution of child offenders has become almost unknown outside the USA. In those six years only the USA (eight; four of them in Texas); Pakistan (one); Democratic Republic of Congo (one); Nigeria (one); and Iran (three), have carried out such executions. A third of the USA's condemned child offenders are on death row in Texas, and of these 31 Texas inmates, 24 belong to racial or ethnic minorities.
A February 2001 Houston Chronicle poll showed only 25 percent in Harris County, Texas, and 34 percent statewide support the death penalty for child offenders. The Texas House of Representatives recently passed a bill that would have raised the death penalty eligibility age to 18, and it might have passed the Senate but for high-level political intervention.
In Texas, the Governor can grant clemency if the Board of Pardons and Paroles recommends it. The Texas administrative Code says the Board will consider recommending commutation if a "majority of the trial officials" request it. Such a request would carry weight with the Board, which has never granted commutation of a death sentence purely on the basis of an inmate's clemency petition, since the resumption of executions in the USA in 1977. In that time, Texas has executed 247 prisoners out of a national total of 720.
RECOMMENDED ACTION: Please send appeals to arrive as quickly as possible, IN YOUR OWN WORDS, in English or your own language....
- expressing sympathy for the family and friends of John Luttig, and acknowledging that nothing can excuse the manner of his death;
- explaining that you are writing to the addressee as one of the trial officials in the 1995 trial of Napoleon Beazley;
PLEASE ADD ANY (OR ALL) OF THE FOLLOWING POINTS:
- Texas is seeking to execute Napoleon Beazley in the face of a worldwide consensus, apparently embracing a majority of Texas citizens and its House of Representatives, that it is wrong to execute people who were under 18 at time of crime;
- no member of Napoleon Beazley's race served on his jury, and one of the jurors has been shown to harbour serious racial prejudice;
- one juror appears to have been a long-time employee of one of John Luttig's business partners (not revealed during jury selection);
- despite the jury's finding of future dangerousness, Napoleon Beazley has been a model prisoner and has justified the confidence of witnesses who testified to his capacity for rehabilitation;
- this capacity for change in a young person lies behind a global consensus against the death penalty for under-18-year-olds;
FINALLY, PLEASE URGE THE ADDRESSEE - in the interests of justice, decency and the reputation of the State of Texas - to ask the Board of Pardons and Paroles to recommend that Napoleon Beazley's death sentence be commuted by the State Governor.
ADDRESS APPEALS TO (Time difference in UK = GMT - 5 hrs / BST - 6 hrs):
Jack Skeen, Jr. [Salutation: Dear District Attorney]
David Dobbs (ex-Assistant District Attorney, Smith County), [Salutation: Dear Mr Dobbs]
Sheriff J. B. Smith [Salutation: Dear Sheriff]
Out of respect for the independence of the judiciary, please do not appeal directly to the one other trial official, the judge. But in your appeals to the above addressees, please request that they convey your concerns to that official, the Honourable Judge Cynthia S. Kent.
IF POSSIBLE, PLEASE COPY LETTERS TO:
Tyler Morning Telegraph
LETTERS FROM THE UK SHOULD ALSO BE COPIED, IF POSSIBLE, TO
His Excellency Mr Glyn Davies, Embassy of United States of America, Grosvenor Square, London W1A 1AE. Fax: 020 7409 1637 |
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22 Jun 01 - 02:19 PM (#489855) Subject: RE: BS: Is this guy worth a second chance? From: Amos DOne. A |
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22 Jun 01 - 02:37 PM (#489870) Subject: RE: BS: Is this guy worth a second chance? From: katlaughing Thank you for this, Fionn, I will also write. |
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22 Jun 01 - 05:03 PM (#489951) Subject: RE: BS: Is this guy worth a second chance? From: Dave the Gnome The young boys who killed Jamie Bulger were released today and I was relieved. They were kids themselves and deserve a second chance. This lad, at 17, was older but the trial and sentence were obviously questionable. I think everyone deserves at least two chances. The death sentence does not allow that. One of the best anti-death sentence arguements I ever saw was, believe it or not, in 'Lord of the Rings'. While discussing Gollum one of the Hobbits said he should have been killed. Gandalf replied that there are many people who are alive and deserve to be dead. But more are dead who deserve to be alive. Who, of us mere mortals, is qualified to make those decisions. (Sorry JRR - not yor words but the sentiment is the same) We haven't always been singing from the same sheet, Fionn, but I am right behind you on this. Letter in the post now. Good Luck Napoleon Dave the Gnome |
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22 Jun 01 - 05:05 PM (#489954) Subject: RE: BS: Is this guy worth a second chance? From: Shields Folk Was gollums hate of hobbits politicaly corect? |
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22 Jun 01 - 07:17 PM (#490067) Subject: RE: BS: Is this guy worth a second chance? From: Peter K (Fionn) Thanks, all. DtG, you may have heard that the Manchester Evening News has posted on the internet some details of the whereabouts of the Bulger killers. That was a ghastly murder all right, but those kids were ten at the time - too young even to have gone on trial in many countries. Even the Tories, even Ann Widdicombe, is saying the law will have to come down like a ton of bricks on deliberate attempts to reveal the new identities under which the killers have been released. Our British press is beneath contempt. |
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23 Jun 01 - 02:24 AM (#490216) Subject: RE: BS: Is this guy worth a second chance? From: DougR It was good of you, Fionn, to post an "unbiased" report of the situation. I'm sure John Luttig's family will probably appreciate the efforts of those who wish to exonorate the murderer. Oh, I forgot, one is not supposed to consider the feelings of the victims in a situation like this. DougR |
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23 Jun 01 - 04:40 AM (#490235) Subject: RE: BS: Is this guy worth a second chance? From: GUEST,.gargoyle It is my personal opinion that:
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23 Jun 01 - 06:31 AM (#490261) Subject: RE: BS: Is this guy worth a second chance? From: Michael in Swansea Consider it done Fionn. Will it be alright with you if I copy your post to my work colleagues? Mike (an ex-believer in the DP) |
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23 Jun 01 - 06:32 AM (#490262) Subject: RE: BS: Is this guy worth a second chance? From: Firecat If the judge and jury only sentenced him to this because he was black, (as I have interpreted the thhing to mean) then he should either get another trial without a racially biased jury or be let off.
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23 Jun 01 - 06:40 AM (#490264) Subject: RE: BS: Is this guy worth a second chance? From: Peter K (Fionn) OK, it's non-musical so far, but I thought maybe someone might write a song. Thanks for the encouragement DougR, but I wasn't saying Beazley should be exonerated, just that there's a case for clemency. (Not yours Doug - I don't believe in miracles.) As DtG said, two kids of 19 have just been "freed" here in the UK after serving nine years for an unspeakable murder done when they were ten. They will survive as long as their new identities hide them from vengeance seekers. Their crime had a profound effect - not least on me, because ny daughter was the same age as their little victim. But to hunt them down and kill them like dogs, for what they did when they were ten? Where do you stand on that, Doug? Are there any grey areas at all in your simple world? These kids are white, by the way. I don't know if that makes a difference? |
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23 Jun 01 - 09:03 AM (#490283) Subject: RE: BS: Is this guy worth a second chance? From: GUEST,DonMeixner "Like all good jews....!?" Is this the same Gargoyle from months back? I don't believe it. The old Gargoyle was obstreporous and an instigator but I don't recall any racist of anti-semitic qualities. Don |
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23 Jun 01 - 01:36 PM (#490410) Subject: RE: BS: Is this guy worth a second chance? From: Sourdough I don't think this is the same one. The other Gargoyle was annoying and antagonistic but clever and clearly well read and intelligent. Gargoyle Nouveau has managed to ape his style but not the content. I write this knowing that in a way I am encouraging him, like paying attention to a mischeivous child who feels neglected and so acts up but it seems a shame to let what is left of the good name of Gargoyle be erased by this pale imitator. I suppose we must know brace ourselves for a spate of messages in which he either tries to prove how well read and intellegent he is or in which he pounds on his keyboard saying he really doesn't care what anyone thinks of him. Ah, well..... It does bring us back to the subject, "Is this guy worth saving?" Sourdough |
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23 Jun 01 - 01:55 PM (#490423) Subject: RE: BS: Is this guy worth a second chance? From: Amos Actually it would be interesting to make a capital offense out of inappropriate and slanderous categorizations of human beings. I imagine the judiciary logistics would be awkward until they got worked out into a standard process. But imagine the salutory effect on society!! Everyone would have to think about their knee-jerk categorizations and compare them against real-world observations. That all by itself could cause a revolution for the good on this silly planet. A |
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23 Jun 01 - 07:05 PM (#490588) Subject: RE: BS: Is this guy worth a second chance? From: GUEST,Joe hello I feel if you do the crime you pay the price an eye for an eye etc.. It also does not matter if you are white,black,yellow,green,or purple with orange polka dots if you are found guilty without a reason of a doubt you face the conseguences. The age factor should not matter because alot of younger people know they can kill someone and only face minor charges,thus getting less punishment.If the case spoken of is questionable then he does deserve a second chance but as I said earlier if without a doubt then he gets what he deserves. |
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23 Jun 01 - 08:41 PM (#490631) Subject: RE: BS: Is this guy worth a second chance? From: Peter K (Fionn) Michael in Swansea, I'm checking about onward copying, and will let you know when I hear. Thanks. (By the way, I think people who change their minds, in any direction, are always worth listening to. Churchill did it several times - just said he would rather be right than consistent!) |
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23 Jun 01 - 08:50 PM (#490635) Subject: RE: BS: Is this guy worth a second chance? From: Mrrzy Anybody who thinks anything about the death penalty should read more Larry Niven. Actually, everybody should read more Larry Niven anyway, but his take on the future of the justice system is, shall we say, particularly interesting. |
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23 Jun 01 - 08:54 PM (#490636) Subject: RE: BS: Is this guy worth a second chance? From: Frank McGrath Fionn, I support your appeal completely. In Ireland, we recently passed an ammendment to our Constitution and we no longer have a Death Penalty. I voted in favour of it's withdrawl as I believe it is wrong to murder people, especially in cold blooded state approved vengence. Frank |
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23 Jun 01 - 10:52 PM (#490665) Subject: RE: BS: Is this guy worth a second chance? From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull Guest Gargoyle-I think you are probably very bad, and dont care about people, I think Fionn was good to start this thread, she obviously cares about people.You shouldnt say bad things about peoples religon either,you are probably thick, most racist etc people are.Max is good for making this site for people, you should respect him for that,and not be cheeky to him.I dont usually argue but you annoyed me too much. You spelt Forum wrong as well. Yes I think this man should be given another chance.john in hull |
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23 Jun 01 - 11:15 PM (#490673) Subject: RE: BS: Is this guy worth a second chance? From: Jon Freeman John, see sourdough's post above and note that gargoyle(s?) is not unknown in this forum. Note also that the suggestion was made to try to get this thread back on topic. While I'm here: I am anti death penalty and yes, I do think this guy is worth a second chance. Jon |
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24 Jun 01 - 01:20 AM (#490704) Subject: RE: BS: Is this guy worth a second chance? From: CamiSu Even if I didn't think the death penalty was wrong, there seems to be a problem or two here. His conviction was mainly on the testimony of his co-defendants, who traded that testimony for exemption from the death penalty themselves. At least two of the jurors could conceivably be said to be gunning for conviction and probably death penalty. He was not tried by a "jury of his peers". Sounds like a retrial may well be in order. Given that Texas has shown a marked disregard for justice in capital cases in the recent and not-so-recent past I'd say that goes double. DougR, while I understand about sympathy for the victims' families, I would get not comfort out of a miscarriage of justice. Killing another person will not bring the original victim back, and if the jury messed up and the main perpetrators got off in the plea bargain, and a much less involved person got the death penalty, how would you feel about that? We DO make mistakes and that's one we cannot in any way make up for. And if in living his life he can in some way atone for the wrong done, isn't that a better outcome than two grieving families? CamiSu |
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24 Jun 01 - 01:48 AM (#490708) Subject: RE: BS: Is this guy worth a second chance? From: Sourdough CamiSu: Thank you. The feelings of the vicitims' families if there were to be a miscarriage of justice is a really good point and I, for one, hadn't thought of that perspective. Sourdough |
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24 Jun 01 - 09:20 AM (#490777) Subject: RE: BS: Is this guy worth a second chance? From: Peter K (Fionn) Thanks John. And you've given me another excuse to mention that Fionn is as in Fionn McComhaill (Fin McCool), the giant of Irish legend and leader of the Fianna. When I nicked the name, I didn't foresee its androgenous potential (honest!). Cracking post, CamiSu. Take care, all - Peter Kirker(aka Fionn)
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24 Jun 01 - 12:33 PM (#490847) Subject: RE: BS: Is this guy worth a second chance? From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull Sorry Peter, I thought Fionn was a girls name! The rest of what i said still stands though.I think Gargoyle is daft. |
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24 Jun 01 - 03:28 PM (#490924) Subject: RE: BS: Is this guy worth a second chance? From: Bagpuss I am not at all surprised by this. It doesn't matter if you are only 17, or mentally ill or have severe learning disabilities. It disgusts me that the death penalty is used in the states (as it so obviously is) as a vote winner. There is plenty of evidence that the use of the death penalty in the US has a huge racial bias. Even if I wasn't opposed to the death penalty under any circumstances, I would be against it for the above reasons. KT |
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24 Jun 01 - 04:26 PM (#490944) Subject: RE: BS: Is this guy worth a second chance? From: GUEST,Joe Dear Bagpuss On the death penalty being a racial bias. The only way I can see that being so is if we were split into two separate groups those who live in peace and believe in justice and those who do not and commit murder.We are all of one race the human one and as I said earlier it matters not the color of your skin do the crime pay the price.Would it had made a difference if McVeigh was black or Asain and killed those people in Oklahoma? |
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25 Jun 01 - 01:07 AM (#491139) Subject: RE: BS: Is this guy worth a second chance? From: CamiSu This is from the Christian Science Monitor from Thursday 21 June. Life imprisonment, not death penalty, her answer Jennifer Bishop teaches in high-school programs for gifted students, but she and her sister, Jeanne, a lawyer, have a second mission --honoring the memory of their sister, Nancy. In 1990, Nancy, her husband, and their unborn child were murdered in Winnetka, Ill., by a teenager from a wealthy family - a good student and athlete who had run for student council president and was being recruited by a top Ivy League university. "He went out one night," she says, "to pick somebody to kill because the idea seemed thrilling to him." They have since sought to honor her life by taking action "against the culture of violence that led to her death." Ms. Bishop has come to forgive the young man, who is serving three life sentences without parole. One of her efforts is working to change attitudes on the death penalty as president of Murder Victims Families for Reconciliation. "My sister's last act was to write a message of love in her own blood," Bishop says, "and I'm not going to second-guess the power and sacredness of that message." "We need to be about the business of loving, of trying to solve our problems, and make society a less violent place," she adds. "Capital punishment is a red herring distracting us from the real work, and it perpetuates the very thing it proposes to stop." Bishop believes that life imprisonment gives the killer time to think about his act and come to terms with it, although the criminal-justice system encourages denial as long as legal remedies remain. She would like to see reforms that move society toward a "restorative" or "transformative justice" system, where victim-offender mediation plays a role. Now, though, she's speaking out on the death penalty, and hopes the rethinking going on in the US will change the climate. "We are often dismissed by prosecutors, police, attorneys general, and state legislative task forces," she says. "I've testified before commissions where I was either not allowed to speak or given less time and treated disrespectfully." Those victims who cry and curse and demand retribution are praised, she adds, while those who choose forgiveness as a healthier way are often marginalized. There is another article here, but you have to go there before Wednesday or it costs $1.50. (If you want the text after that, PM me and I will email it to you. I would have posted it last night but I only just saw it.) |
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25 Jun 01 - 05:19 AM (#491205) Subject: RE: BS: Is this guy worth a second chance? From: GeorgeH CarriSu, thanks for that . . And to the mistaken person who quoted "an eye for an eye" - you are, I presume, non-christian? Because that was Jewish law, which Christ quite explcitly strove to modify . . . It MERELY places a limit on the MAXIMUM retribution that may be sought, without saying that it must always be that way,. G. |
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25 Jun 01 - 10:56 AM (#491377) Subject: RE: BS: Is this guy worth a second chance? From: Kim C Fionn maybe you and I agree on something for once. :-) I am not completely against the death penalty but neither am I completely for it. I believe we need to have something extremely severe for people who do something like, oh, I dunno, blow up 180+ innocent people? Or kill little boys and bury them in your back yard? Seems to me that if one murder is his only offense ever, execution is too much. |
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25 Jun 01 - 12:18 PM (#491472) Subject: RE: BS: Is this guy worth a second chance? From: CamiSu I don't know. Seems to me that solitary confinement forever would be a better punishment for unrepentant mass murderers. Tim McVeigh viewed that as much worse punishment than execution. And now he's a martyr to some. Plus there's no room for real change if you kill a young man like this one, rather than giving him a chance to redeem himself. CamiSu |
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25 Jun 01 - 05:16 PM (#491677) Subject: RE: BS: Is this guy worth a second chance? From: Grab Any other details on the crime in question? If he shot the man in self-defence, it's a bit different from if he went on an anti-white rampage looking for someone to kick to death. Which end of the stick are we talking here? And this affects the severity of the sentence - prior history is only _one_ element of the equation, the degree of the crime and likelihood of reoffending are the other two. It's all a bit sketchy, Fionn - your story does suggest that he got a raw deal, but there's too little detail to say either way. And it depends on the mental faculties of this guy, as well. At age 17 you're damn near to being legally an adult; conversely, at age 18 you're still close to being legally a child. Which side you fall on is more a matter of the development of the individual than an exact cut-off - of course, how you'd judge that is another matter... Graham. |
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25 Jun 01 - 05:44 PM (#491693) Subject: RE: BS: Is this guy worth a second chance? From: Sourdough It is interesting that the "eye for an eye" quote is from ancient Hebrew law and it certainly bears little resemblance ot the other often quoted Biblical statement, or admonition, "Turn the other cheek". Certainly many people who ground their lives in the New Testament in what they consider to be a return to biblical fundamentalism quote that particular statement as a way of justifying vengeance. I also believe that the "eye for an eye" statement is very old and the concept goes back to Hamurabi although I don't know whether that predates the Hebrew statement. I am pretty sure that mainstream Jewish thought today does not endorse eye trading as social policy. I don't believe that it was an order from God that one should take an eye for a lost one. I will bet that social ideas such as that have changed over the centuries as societies have changed. Sourdough |
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25 Jun 01 - 06:59 PM (#491772) Subject: RE: BS: Is this guy worth a second chance? From: DougR So, Dave the Gnome, a murderer should be given two shots at it before he is executed? Did you really mean that? If he/she murders once, he/she gets (I assume) life in Prison (and probably gets out in a few years). If he/she gets out and kills again, excute him/her? Is that your position? Fionn: If you did not expect some dissenting comments on your thread, perhaps you should have invited only those who agree with your point of view to reply. No offense intended, Fionn. (even though your remark about me was noted and not particularly appreciated but I do believe in free speech and thought myself). DougR |
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25 Jun 01 - 08:09 PM (#491809) Subject: RE: BS: Is this guy worth a second chance? From: GUEST,Joe hello GeorgeH how am I mistaken for my point of view or qoute? I was Baptised and asked for forgiveness but to say I am a Christian never for to say you are a christian means you are like a little Christ. KimC so what your saying is if there is a chance of redemption then they deserve a second chance. Sourdough I believe the statement was meant as to mean egual retribution but with todays technology the eye swapping could work. As I said earlier if there is a reason of a doubt then the young man does desrve a second chance but if it is proven he is as guilty as all get out then no he does not. CamiSu I heard of a great victim-offender mediation in one of the Asian countries where the family of the victim gets to beat the hell out of the offender with rattan.That is of course after they have been proven guilty without a reason of a doubt. Fionn you said also that most of the testimony was by two others who were there but they plea bargained I feel this where are justice system fails as well if all three where in on the crime then all three should face the same charges unless it was proven only one of them was guilty for the murder then the others should be tried as accompliances. Like say only one of them had the gun and he shot the person.I of course don't know all the facts so you know like what was the murder weapon,when did it happen, was there any other witnesses so on and so forth |
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26 Jun 01 - 12:33 AM (#491952) Subject: RE: BS: Is this guy worth a second chance? From: CamiSu Actually DougR, according to the polls, people of your opinion are more numerous than those who do not support it. Hence it would be foolish to think we are going to have 100% agreement here. Did you read the article I posted? The woman it is about, who lost her sister, brother-in-law, and their unborn child, is working to abolish the death penalty. One of her comments was that when she speaks on the subject, she gets neither the time or the respect that people demanding retribution get. Kind of sad, for a nation that considers itself the world leader in about everything. I have considered this issue a lot. I have never lost a family memberto violence, but did lose a dear friend, in her 80s, to a senseless, unsolved, murder. At this juncture, I cannot see the right in capital punishment. Perhaps I am too vengeful. Let the unrepentant ones spend their lives in jail. Let the ones willing to change do so. And if it means they have to change and yet spend their lives in jail, give them the opportunity to do some good for this world from there. With Love. CamiSu |
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26 Jun 01 - 02:42 AM (#491990) Subject: RE: BS: Is this guy worth a second chance? From: DougR CamiSu: I HAVE lost a loved one in a senseless murder, and admittedly, it might flavor my attitude. My wonderful mother-in-law died by strangulation while showing an apartment in Dallas the day after Bobby Kennedy was assignated. It is still an unsolved crime. She was a sweet, caring lady who wouldn't harm a fly and I have often imagined how horrible her last moments must have been. The man who killed her deprived her of seeing her grandchildren grow up to be adults. And she never had the joy of seeing her great grandchildren. I would find no pleasure in witnessing the execution of the man who did this terrible thing to her, but if they ever caught him, I would watch him die, and it would not bother me one bit. The loss of my mother-in-law is not the only reason that I favor capital punishment, however. I don't think it necessarily serves as a deterrent to people committing murder, but it damn well assures that they never take another person's life again. Too many times there are cases where convicted murderers are sentenced to "Life in Prison," and a do-gooder parole board sets them free after a few years, and the go forth and murder again. Execution assures that they never will kill again. I will now await the flood of postings from people who will say, "But not everyone on death row is guilty." That's probably true, and if any innocent person has been put to death, I regret it. But those who are PROVEN guilty deserve far worse than what they probably imposed on their victims. Today they lay on a gurney, are given drugs and die peacefully. Their victims are rarely afforded such a peaceful death. I'm not addressing this posting specifically to you CamiSue, it was sweet of you to post as you did, and I appreciate it. DougR |
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26 Jun 01 - 06:49 PM (#492525) Subject: RE: BS: Is this guy worth a second chance? From: Peter K (Fionn) Michael in Swansea, I raised that question and I#d have expected a reply so they must be very busy. I would say go ahead if still interested - I'll take the rap if I've called it wrong. I do think it;s worth writing letters because for one I believe there is a real chance of a reprieve. Grab, a reprieve doesn't mean freedom - I wouldn't expect or suggest that the guy should go free maybe for many years. OVciously the potential for re-offending would be assessed as part of any decision on whether to release him. DougR, was the bit you failed to appreciate: "Thanks for the encouragement DougR, but I wasn't saying Beazley should be exonerated, just that there's a case for clemency. (Not yours Doug - I don't believe in miracles.)"? For once I wasn't trying to be as aggressive as you may have thought - I just phrased it badly. I meant that though there may be a good case for clemency, I wouldn't expect clemency from you. I can't see you bridling at that, so my phrasing must have led you to think something worse. But two other points, DougR: 1) I'm still curious to know whether you recognised any grey areas, and 2) When you say PROVED, that's OK if you recognise that this is not as easy as it sounds. For instance it is now widely recognised, including in the US, that confessional evidence can be unreliable, and even forensic evidence may not be what it seems. (A senior forensic expert in the UK (west midlands) was instrumental in securing prison sentences for many innocent people, by giving perversely false testimony against them. |
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26 Jun 01 - 08:12 PM (#492601) Subject: RE: BS: Is this guy worth a second chance? From: CET Well, here goes (once again). I was initially irritated by Doug R's post, but given the murder of his mother-in-law I can only have the greatest respect for his feelings. Those feelings would be mine too if I had gone through what he has. If someone killed a member of my family I think I could watch them die. The difficulty is getting from point A to point B: from the crime itself to the killing of the person who committed the crime. We have only one method of making that journey: the criminal justice system. This system requires that all offenders be proved guilty beyond a resonable doubt, not just murderers. That is the standard. There is no other. There is no standard of proof of "really, really guilty if you are charged with murder". Using that standard, beyond a reasonable doubt, a British jury, in a trial conducted by a British judge according to British law, found Timothy Evans guilty of murdering his wife and baby daughter. He did not commit those crimes. He was executed, and as far as I know no British government has ever admitted that he was wrongly executed. Using the standard of beyond a reasonable doubt, a Canadian jury, in a trial conducted by a Canadian judge according to Canadian law, found Guy Paul Morin guilty of murdering and sexually assaulting a young girl. He went to prison. His trial was blatantly unsatisfactory (for further information see "Redrum the Innocent" by Kirk Makin), but Guy Paul Morin remained in jail. DNA evidence has now proved what he asserted from the very beginning. He was innocent. The death penalty has been long abolished in Canada. Guy Paul Morin is now free. So, Doug R, while I respect your anger at the murder of a loved one, I am disappointed by what seemed like a cavalier attitude to those who are wrongly convicted of murder and executed. The execution of the innocent is not a possibility, or even a danger that we can somehow take precautions against. It is a certainty. It is the inevitable consequence of going through the criminal justice process. It does not happen often, but it does happen. It is the price that society must be willing to pay if we insist on having the power to execute murderers. So tell me, which was the better criminal justice system, the British system that killed Timothy Evans, or the Canadian system that convicted Guy Paul Morin, but was able to apologize for getting it wrong? Edmund Thomas |
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26 Jun 01 - 08:42 PM (#492628) Subject: RE: BS: Is this guy worth a second chance? From: DougR Fionn, Edmund: I have no doubt that innocent people have been executed for murders they did not commit. I regret that. I do not believe, however, that it is a basis for abolishing capital punishment. Otherwise, people who are unquestionably guilty, Timothy McVey for example remain alive to kill again. I know, most of you will say, "We do not advocate setting the guilty ones free, we want them sentenced to life in prison." The trouble is, some well meaning parole board sometime in the future may decided that he or she has rehabilitated him/herself, and they are set free. There have been many instances of these people killing again after they are paroled. I don't necessarily believe that capital punishment deters people from murdering other people. A guilty person who has killed, who is executed by the state, however, will never kill again. I believe our criminal justice system (here in the U. S.) is the best in the world, and though it is not perfect, I know of none better. I'm not putting down other systems, I know little about them, and it would be foolish of me to do so. While I represent the minority view, politically and philosophically, here on the Mudcat, every poll I know of in the United States shows, however, that I am with the majority in this country on the subject of capital punishment. I believe, based on recent news stories that the people of Great Britain, if allowed to, would also reinstate the death penalty for a capital crime. I do not know about Canada. I respect your views, even though I don't agree with them. And I have made my position as clear as I think I can. Those who wish to write lettrs, sign petitions, and do whatever Fionn requests people to do should do so. I certainly respect their right to do it, and wish them luck. If one posts a thread here on the Mudcat, he or she should expect that someone might post a message that is in disagreement with the position of the poster. That's just the way BS threads on the Mudcat work. DougR |
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27 Jun 01 - 05:06 PM (#493356) Subject: RE: BS: Is this guy worth a second chance? From: McGrath of Harlow But the only place I know where they held a referednum, in Ireland, the other week, the people voted against it - you'll catch up some day, God willing.
"I regret innocent people being killed by my agents, and I accept that it has been done, but I think that is a price worth paying" - that is effectively what Doug is saying.
Now if one of those innocent people were a member of his family, would he still say that? Surely he would have to, since nothing the family relationship would have no bearing on the principle involved. His "regret" might be sharper in such a case, but he would still have to believe that it was a price worth paying. |
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27 Jun 01 - 07:27 PM (#493500) Subject: RE: BS: Is this guy worth a second chance? From: DougR Yes, McGrath, you're right. DougR |
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28 Jun 01 - 01:46 AM (#493692) Subject: RE: BS: Is this guy worth a second chance? From: DougR Since so many of my Mudcat friends feel compelled to save the lives of murderers, I thought I'd post another opportunity. Fionn's campaign has had several days of opportunity for those who are inclined to write letters of support, etc. So here is another one. Shawn Grell is 25 years old. His IQ is judged to be borderline mentally retarted. Arizona law, passed recently, decided it would not execute retarted people. The law, however, takes place too late to help Grell. Grell admitted he deserves the death penalty at a news conference he called in April, 2000. A few months later, he signed a statement of facts that were used to convict him. It may not be too late to save him if you wish to send letters to the Maricopa County Attorney in Arizona. I'll provide the address at the end of the post. Oh? What did Shawn Grell do that convinced a jury that he was guilty? Ready? Here goes. He signed his 2-year old daughter, Kristen Salem, out of her preschool. He used the name of his girlfriend, Amber Salem. who was the mother of the child. She had told daycare workers not to release Kristen to Grell because she was afraid of his violent nature, but they did. He then drove around Mesa (Arizona) with her. She cried and said she missed her mother. He slapped her, and she was quiet for awhile, but got restless again. So he drove to a Target store and bought a red plastic gas can. He drove to a mini-mart and filled it with gasoline. He drove around for about 45 minutes looking for a place to set his daughter on fire. He chose a dirt ditch near Adobe Street in east Mesa. She was asleep in the passenger seat, so he woke her up. He lifted her out of the car and put her on the ground. She awoke while he was dousing her with gasoline and said, "No, Daddy, no." He lit the match and flicked it at her just as she stood up. He drove up and down the street watching the flames. When the fire was out, he went to look at the body. Then he went to buy some beer. Grell has not been sentenced yet. Those who wish to send letters urging that he not be given the death sentence should direct their letters to: Rick Romley Maricopa County Attorney 301 West Jefferson Street Phoenix, AZ 85003 DougR |
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28 Jun 01 - 03:38 PM (#494177) Subject: RE: BS: Is this guy worth a second chance? From: Sourdough And the reason that we should execute this man is what? To stop him from doing this again? To stop other borderline retards from doing the same? To show the rest of the world the efficiency and justice of state sponsored executions. To provide vengeance. Of all the reasons above, vengeance is the only one that makes sense and then only if you make the assumption that the "eye for an eye" argument is more compelling than "thous shalt not kill. An argument, or discussion if you will, like this only makes sense if you are willing to go to your assumptions and look at them. If you believe in vengeance, then killing the perpetrator of a horrendous crime in which there seems no doubt of his guilt is a logical, consistent position even if the perpatrator has the intellectual capacity of an overripe tomato. So where does vengeance stop? Can you imagine any situation in which someone might commit a terrible murder and not pay with his life? Can you imagine someone so demented, so crazy that it would not make sense to kill him? If we really are talking about vengeance, doesn't it make sense to make the execution painful? Why is it that we don't? Perhaps one reason is because of the people who have to carry it out. The executioners pay a price, too, that's why there is a blank in one of the rifles in a firing squad. It is why the people throwing the switch to light up the electric chair or to drop the cyanide pellet or to open the IV shunts don't know for sure whether it was their action that actually killed the prisoner. THey don't have to accept full responsibility for killing another person. The full price of that responsibility is too painful but I think, we all pay a price for the execution of a prisoner. I share the outrage and anger of most people when I hear of a murder such as the one you describe and if it were my child I would be beside myself with black anger directed at the person who did it. I could conceive of killing him, face to face with a pistol, perhaps even a knife. However, I would hope that after a while, I would be able to let go of that anger, that I would come to realize that killing him would not change anything in the past and that executing him would be like demolishing a defective automobile that caused the death of someone I loved - it just wouldn't make any sense to me. So, when it is all over, I think you, DougR, start from a different set of assumptions and having done that you come out in a different place. I could not get you to change your mind unless you were willing to question your assumptions any more than you will be able to change mine by listing horror stories. Sourdough |
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28 Jun 01 - 06:11 PM (#494296) Subject: RE: BS: Is this guy worth a second chance? From: DougR Sourdough: I don't think I commented one way or the other whether I thought Shawn Grell should be executed. I merely posted the information for those who wish to participate in campaigns to save people who likely will be executed. I did nothing more than Fionn did. Were I to choose one of the reasons you listed, however, and were I in favor of executing Grell, the reason I would choose would not be vengence. It would be because society would be ensured that he never would kill again. DougR |
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28 Jun 01 - 07:33 PM (#494351) Subject: RE: BS: Is this guy worth a second chance? From: McGrath of Harlow You get rid of the possibility that this particular man would not kill again - but at the price of causing other people to become killers, and in a sense requiring that the whole community become killers. And in the certainty, as you have yourself said, that some of the people who get killed by the agents of the community will in fact be innocent.
But to return to the initial case Fionn brought to our attention - that was a man who waqs at the time of the crime of which he was convicted only 17. Still a child. And as the Amnesty report said about execution of children (including people who were children at the time of their offence) since 1995: "In those six years only the USA (eight; four of them in Texas); Pakistan (one); Democratic Republic of Congo (one); Nigeria (one); and Iran (three), have carried out such executions. "
Very interesting company. To me that means that, however you read it, killing child offenders is pretty unusual on the world stage. And that should surely mean that it is against the constitution of the USA. |
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28 Jun 01 - 08:12 PM (#494368) Subject: RE: BS: Is this guy worth a second chance? From: GUEST,Joe Hello DougR I was "mistaken" earlier I guess on my view of an eye for an eye. I feel Grell should be burnt at the stake. Sourdough I choose all of the above and I feel I would have no problem carrying out the execution. McGrath on the fact of becoming a killer by carrying out the execution of murderers.Why don't we view it as a personal war so to speak of against injustice since we consider war to be the time when you are justified to kill and can even be given awards did we not cheer when Hitler was overthrown and just recently Saddam. |
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28 Jun 01 - 08:20 PM (#494372) Subject: RE: BS: Is this guy worth a second chance? From: McGrath of Harlow Joe's comments sum up why I believe that capital punishment damages the community that does it, and why I think the Irish referendum against it was maybe the best news this century. And as such virtually ignored outside Ireland. |
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28 Jun 01 - 09:16 PM (#494399) Subject: RE: BS: Is this guy worth a second chance? From: Peter K (Fionn) DougR, you say American justice is the best and promptly add that it's one of the few you know about. Keep whistling. There are justice systems that leave the American (and British) systems for dead, and they're still far short of perfect. I'm talking about accuracy here, not sentencing policy. As far as sentencing goes, America has a higher percentage of its population in prison than all but about two countries on earth. It also has shamefully high levels of crime. Prison clearly is no deterrent, so why not execute prisoners even for many lesser crimes than murder, and save on the food bills? I'm beginning to realise that you would do just that, and probably more - maybe just drawing the line at any little transgressions you might have committed yourself. McGrath, I think you have to face the possibility that Doug is content for the state not just to kill on his account, but to murder too. It would be hard to call state killing of innocent people anything else, and Doug seems quite prepared to have that happen. Whether McVeigh lived or died (to take Doug's acid test) didn't bother me much, and the guy himself seemed quite relaxed about it. I certainly wouldn't want him killed if that meant (as it does) supporting a penalty that I know full well is going to kill innocent people. Innocent is innocent, which means it could be Doug's mother, never mind mother-in-law. It could be you, him or me. We might as well abandon all hypocritical pretence at justice and leave everything to the militias and the lynch mobs. God help us all. |
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28 Jun 01 - 11:09 PM (#494455) Subject: RE: BS: Is this guy worth a second chance? From: DougR Aw Fionn, lighten up. We're only talking opinions here. I doubt either of us (and I'll throw in McGrath too) will change the way the world turns. I think threads of this type start going wrong when people personalize them. That's what you are doing Fionn. Too bad we can't just have a civil discussion. But we can't because if one does not agree with you, you attack them, as you are attacking me. Too bad. I respect your right to believe as you do. You obviously cannot return the courtesy. DougR |
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29 Jun 01 - 07:27 AM (#494631) Subject: RE: BS: Is this guy worth a second chance? From: McGrath of Harlow On that last I agree with Doug. I think what he believes about state killing is wrong, but that's how it goes. There's a disagrement, and no reason for any persinal antagonism.
He'd said that in principle he believed in capital punishment and accepted that this in practice sometimes means that innocent people get killed by the agents of tyhe community. I pointed out that had to include the hypothetical case where the innocent person involved was his nearest and dearest (or indeed himself).
There are only two honourable and consistent ways out of the implied dilemma. One would be to withdraw the support for capital punishment. The other is to accept that the innocent prisoner in the death cell might be yourself, and still say it's right.
As I expected Doug took the latter option. There are a lot of people who would try to wriggle out of the dilemma by claiming that it's possible to avoid such miscarriages of justice. I think that amounts to wilful blindness. |
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29 Jun 01 - 07:40 AM (#494639) Subject: RE: BS: Is this guy worth a second chance? From: Wolfgang GERMANY OPTIMISTIC AFTER INTERNATIONAL RULING ON U.S. EXECUTIONS (a German newspaper article translated into English on the LaGrand case) Wolfgang |
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29 Jun 01 - 05:13 PM (#495020) Subject: RE: BS: Is this guy worth a second chance? From: GUEST,Joe Hello Wolfgang your link brings up a good question shouldn't all travelers to a foriegn land be given compotent legal advice if they are accused of a crime. I also noticed how long it took for their execution to be carried out 17 years.I have to admit our courts are bogged down with technacalities,but on another note the way are system works if they were given life with parole after those 17 years they could of been free for good behavior.I also know if given life without parole they could of kept appealing until they were in their ninetys |