BS: lower case posts with no punctuation

01 Jul 01 - 04:39 PM (#496018)
Subject: lower case posts with no punctuation
From: Murray MacLeod

i have noticed lotsofpeople are posting their messages all in lower case and i think i am going to start doing this too cuz its like really kewl and you dont have to waste energy hitting the shift button or putting in commas and stuff and everybody thinks youre like really busy and rushing to get your post finished so you can go hang out with your friends and stuff and its like really kewl and you get matt r writing into your thread cuz he thinks you are kewl and i think i am going to start doing this

luvyall

murray

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01 Jul 01 - 04:43 PM (#496021)
Subject: RE: BS: lower case posts with no punctuation
From: Sorcha

it bugs metoo murray.

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01 Jul 01 - 04:46 PM (#496026)
Subject: RE: BS: lower case posts with no punctuation
From: Mary in Kentucky

iusedtobekewl!

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01 Jul 01 - 04:47 PM (#496027)
Subject: RE: BS: lower case posts with no punctuation
From: toadfrog

whothefuck doyouthinkyouare--anyhow?

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01 Jul 01 - 04:48 PM (#496029)
Subject: RE: BS: lower case posts with no punctuation
From: Roger in Sheffield

IhateitwhenpeopletypeyouwhenUwilldo.

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01 Jul 01 - 04:49 PM (#496030)
Subject: RE: BS: lower case posts with no punctuation
From: Jon Freeman

I THINK WE NEED TO BE CAREFUL ABOUT THIS ONE AS IT IS AWLAYS POSSIBLE THAT SOMEONE IS TYPING IN ALL LOWERCASE BECAUSE OF SOME DISABILITY AND IT IS AT LEAST IMO PREFERABLE TO ALL CAPS HAVING SAID THAT IF PEOPLE ARE DOING IT TO BE COOL I WISH THEY WOULD STOP

JON

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01 Jul 01 - 04:53 PM (#496035)
Subject: RE: BS: lower case posts with no punctuation
From: Tig

Maybe it's because some people don't know how to use punctuation and capital letters? I admit to not checking quite a few of my postings so I do loose the odd capital, but most of it is punctuated.

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01 Jul 01 - 04:56 PM (#496037)
Subject: RE: BS: lower case posts with no punctuation
From: 53

Well, I am a secretary and I can live with lower case better than I can the absence of punctuation.

But thewordsallruntogetherlikethis takes me twice as long 'cause I automatically hit the spacebar and then have to back up.

I sometimes get emails in all caps. I hate that because I feel like someone is shouting at me. One of the agents in the office where I work sends them that way so he doesn't have to hit the shift key. I automatically go back and correct errors if I take time to catch them.

But I have submitted messages here that have grammatical errors. I hate it when I do. But I rarely proof these like I do my work! This is a place I can hang out and switch off my 'work'. Right?

Glenda

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01 Jul 01 - 05:03 PM (#496043)
Subject: RE: BS: lower case posts with no punctuation
From: CarolC

I think some people do it because they get into the habit while using 'instant message' kinds of communication. My son is a very articulate person and a good writer. He has no desire to be 'cool' in the sense that Murray implies.

But I have seen him carry on as many as eight simultaneous conversations through instant messages, and the only way to do that is to abbreviate things a bit. I have to admit that reading posts like that is a bit difficult for me and it takes me longer, but I can understand how some people might get into that habit.

I'm curious to know when it's going to stop being 'kewl' to behave condescendingly and patronizingly toward Matt R.

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01 Jul 01 - 05:03 PM (#496044)
Subject: RE: BS: lower case posts with no punctuation
From: GUEST,Ickle Dorritt

Really, life is too short - if people understand you, upper case, lower case then it shouldn't really matter.

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01 Jul 01 - 05:07 PM (#496050)
Subject: RE: BS: lower case posts with no punctuation
From: Clinton Hammond

I carry on all kinds of IM conversations, and I absolutely will not 'abbreviate' like that!!!!

Bollox!

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01 Jul 01 - 05:15 PM (#496053)
Subject: RE: BS: lower case posts with no punctuation
From: CarolC

Well, you're a better man than I am, Clinton ;-)

I have trouble carrying on even one of those IM conversations at one time without abbreviating. That's why I don't enjoy IM very much. I can't even begin to imagin being able to do eight at one time.

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01 Jul 01 - 05:22 PM (#496059)
Subject: RE: BS: lower case posts with no punctuation
From: Murray MacLeod

Carol, may I say that I had, and have, no intention of being either patronizing or condescending to Matt, despite our past differences. If it seemed like that, I apologize in advance. It's just that Matt is a lot "kewler" than I am !

Murray

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01 Jul 01 - 05:34 PM (#496066)
Subject: RE: BS: lower case posts with no punctuation
From: CarolC

Sorry if I imputed motives that were not yours, Murray. It just seems like Matt takes a lot of pot shots about his age from a lot of people.

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01 Jul 01 - 05:38 PM (#496072)
Subject: RE: BS: lower case posts with no punctuation
From: Matt_R

Well, I've never used the word "kewl". I'm a copy editor, so it's my job to make people's writing skills readable.

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01 Jul 01 - 05:58 PM (#496082)
Subject: RE: BS: lower case posts with no punctuation
From: GUEST

Ickle Dorrit,

Just because people can understand you, I don't think you should neglect grammatical rules or correct spelling.

Try to make it easy on the reader. Correct grammar, spelling and punctuation help most people to read more quickly and easily.

No doubt you can understand the following sentence:

teh caat ssat onn ttthe maat

If I wrote everything in such a manner, well draw your own conclusions...

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01 Jul 01 - 06:06 PM (#496084)
Subject: RE: BS: lower case posts with no punctuation
From: Murray MacLeod

To give you credit Matt, I don't think I remember reading any of your posts that was less than impeccably written. I might not have known what you were talking about, but that would be due to my unfamiliarity with the subject matter rather than to any literary shortcomings on your part.

Murray

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01 Jul 01 - 06:17 PM (#496086)
Subject: RE: BS: lower case posts with no punctuation
From: GUEST,Arkie

I usually skip the posts in which the writer does not bother to seperate words or follow some basic writing conventions. I don't figure I've missed much.

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01 Jul 01 - 06:23 PM (#496089)
Subject: RE: BS: lower case posts with no punctuation
From: McGrath of Harlow

I always rather assume that posts in lower case are written by coackroaches. As in "archie and mehitabel" by Dom Marquis, where archie, the reincarnated journalist, who came back as a cockroach (presumably because he had been a good journalist and deserved promotion) used to type by diving at the keys. But he couldn't manage the shift key, which was stiffer.

Mind, with computer keyboards, that wouldn't apply would it? The poet e.e.cummings did it too. I don't know if he was a cockroach as well.

Since it makes it harder to read, I'd say it counts as being discourteous, unless you have similar problems to archie, as some people do who aren't cockroaches. Running the words together is doubly discourteous, with the same proviso. Still, it's not important enough to make a fuss about, and to do so could even encourage some people to faff around like this.

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01 Jul 01 - 06:28 PM (#496093)
Subject: RE: BS: lower case posts with no punctuation
From: Murray MacLeod

IMHO, discourtesy is alsways worth taking issue with. Making a "fuss" well perhaps that would be a bit OTT.

Murray

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01 Jul 01 - 06:30 PM (#496094)
Subject: RE: BS: lower case posts with no punctuation
From: CarolC

"The poet e.e.cummings did it too. I don't know if he was a cockroach as well."

(*grin*) Nah... he was just pretentious.

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01 Jul 01 - 06:33 PM (#496095)
Subject: RE: BS: lower case posts with no punctuation
From: Deckman

I well remember my first lecture from darling Ellen, in London. It was during the "Walt Robertson" thread, about six months ago. She and I, and many others, were e-mailing frequantly. She explained (told?) me that she NEVER uses capitals when e-mailing, as it frees her ... and this from a grand and professional writer. Being new to e-mailing, I assumed that this was what I was supposed to do. I tried it and I totally failed. I just couldn't bring myself to do this grevious wrong. I know, I know, I'm old fashioned, and probilbly a lousy speller, but I just didn't feel 'right' about it. So, I now sleep a little better. If attempting proper punctuation bothers you, Oh well. I guess I'll NEVER be considered "trendy." CHEERS and GOOD THOUGHTS Bob(deckman)Nelson

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01 Jul 01 - 06:38 PM (#496098)
Subject: RE: BS: lower case posts with no punctuation
From: Deckman

... and, as Archie says ... "toujour gay, toujour gay, toujour gay!" CHEERS! Bob(deckman)Nelson

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01 Jul 01 - 06:42 PM (#496101)
Subject: RE: BS: lower case posts with no punctuation
From: Banjer

I try to make sure all my posts are correctly spelled and grammaticaly correct to the best of my ability. I went to school in an era when English teachers would accept nothing less than good handwriting (which I always had a problem with) and correct spelling. All assignment must be in ink!! Unlike the math teacher who would accept nothing in ink. All math assignments must be in pencil! It seems in todays schools the tehachers are just so grateful to get anything turned in that nothing matters, ink, pencil, grammar, spelling, who cares? At least the kid turned something in! What a difference 30 years can make!

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01 Jul 01 - 06:42 PM (#496102)
Subject: RE: BS: lower case posts with no punctuation
From: McGrath of Harlow

Naah - surely that was Mehitabel?

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01 Jul 01 - 06:54 PM (#496112)
Subject: RE: BS: lower case posts with no punctuation
From: CarolC

Of course you're right, McGrath of Harlow. I don't know what I could have been thinking.

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01 Jul 01 - 06:57 PM (#496113)
Subject: RE: BS: lower case posts with no punctuation
From: CarolC

Oops! Egg on my face! I didn't see Deckman's second post.

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01 Jul 01 - 07:19 PM (#496131)
Subject: RE: BS: lower case posts with no punctuation
From: Bill D

I am a slowish, two-finger typist, and it takes ME a long time to get some of my posts spelled reasonably and looking readable. I also embellish my typing with ellipsis...., with *grins*, and with capitals when I wish to make a SERIOUS point...etc.

I do this to make my postings sound as much like 'me' talking as possible in this medium. You may disagree with my thoughts, but at least you'll have some idea what they are!

I do realize that some people have different degrees of education and abilities, and I don't fret about small details, but some people are just lazy and make no real attempt to make their posts clear. (Yuhknowhaddimean?)

It's simply a matter of attitude.

(and I am reminded of The 1st law of hitch-hiking .. "Look like who you want to pick you up")

if u type like this and dont punctiate or spell good, u may not get much attention because some of us just cant force oruselves to read runon sentences with no concern for what u want to say being phrased in any way that is easy to understand without stopping and looking at the words very slowly for along time which we dont always have.....if u see my point.......

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01 Jul 01 - 07:27 PM (#496139)
Subject: RE: BS: lower case posts with no punctuation
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull

I agree with Bill D, I am still new to the internet and not very good at typing(it takes me 10 minutes to just to write my name!), and in my job I never type (I am a delivery driver), But now I do try to post my messages properly.john

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01 Jul 01 - 07:38 PM (#496149)
Subject: RE: BS: lower case posts with no punctuation
From: Bill D

yep, John, and I see improvement in your posts everyday. It is clear that you are making the effort!

(I took a sort of perverse pride in not taking typing class when I was in 7th & 8th grade, and I never regretted it until 5 years ago when I needed to see the letters appear on the screen. Now I am 62, and VERY slowly teaching myself touch typing from a free program)

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01 Jul 01 - 08:03 PM (#496160)
Subject: RE: BS: lower case posts with no punctuation
From: catspaw49

Especially in discussion forums such as we use here, it is easy to read more or less into the words that are written. We have had long discussions about this before and using the **grin** and **BG** and the other icons (:<)) can have very beneficial effect in making your words understood in the manner you mean them. Inflection is very difficult to transmit as Bill so well points out so using less than standard grammatical tricks sich as the ellipsis..............well..........it just makes sense doesn't it?(:<))

Like many others, I try to type in the same manner I speak and to give the reader asense of the voice pattern and it's implied attitude.....friendly, angry, humorful, sarcastic, or combinations of all gets to be a challenge. Sometimes I am misunderstood, but I doubt if I have as many problems with that as others do and as the most prolific poster in the joint, I think my percentage of understanding vs. lack thereof is pretty good.

All lower case of all of anything doesn't help me to understand a poster as there are too many ways to tkae individual words, let alone sentences and paragraphs! But if it makes you happy then go with it and I'll do my best to keep up and guess at your meaning. Many times though, like Arkie, I just skip them.

Sorry.

Spaw

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01 Jul 01 - 08:12 PM (#496165)
Subject: RE: BS: lower case posts with no punctuation
From: Joe Offer

There's a very well-known guy with the initials DG who always posts in lower-case one-liners with no punctuation...and what he says is always worth reading. DG has something to do with the DT [grin]. His name is green-something-or-other....
-Joe Offer-

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01 Jul 01 - 08:22 PM (#496172)
Subject: RE: BS: lower case posts with no punctuation
From: catspaw49

I think dg DOES use some nowadays Joe. At least his stuff IS readable, often though because the ol' fart is pretty "short, sweet(?), and to the point."

Spaw

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01 Jul 01 - 08:25 PM (#496174)
Subject: RE: BS: lower case posts with no punctuation
From: Louie Roy

I never learned to type until I was 75 and I know I make a lot of mistakes with my punctuation marks,but being a hunt and pecker I do the best I can.If I or someone else misses a period,question mark,etc,etc,etc mark it doesn't excite me ,but I'm sure if one of you who are so well versed on spelling and punctuation should happen to have a daughter who misses three periods in a row I'm sure you will become very excited.My question though is this who in the Hell are you to Judge?Do you have a Halo over your head or couldn't they find one big enough? Louie Roy

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01 Jul 01 - 08:31 PM (#496178)
Subject: RE: BS: lower case posts with no punctuation
From: paddymac

Aw, gee, shucks & golly willikers. Foolish me. ithoughtthisthreadwasgoingtobeallaboutemulatingjamesjoycebutasitypethislineimwonderingwhatwillhappenwhenthemachinetriestoreadthisallasonewordanddropitalldowntothenextline.

I thought this thread was going to be all about emulating James Joyce, but as I type this sentence I'm wondering what will happen when the machine tries to read this as all one word and drop it all down to the next line. Well, now I know. It screws up the copy/paste process and won't allow me to start a new paragraph without ending the previous one with a punctuation mark of some kind. Normal punctuation seems much easier, not to mention the benefit (well, in most cases) of a more intelligible post.

Having said all that, I do recall that when I first began using e-mails there was a pseudo-convention of not using caps, which I presume was somebody's idea of efficiency. But even there, punctuation was still required.

No doubt styles of writing will (or have) emerge(d) in cyber worlds which may not conform to the "standard" for whatever language is being used, but such evolutionary false-starts which impede rather than enhance communication won't likely get far.

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01 Jul 01 - 08:37 PM (#496179)
Subject: RE: BS: lower case posts with no punctuation
From: paddymac

Hasty apologies to all. I foolishly thought the above mesage would appear here pretty much as it did on my screen. It appears that this system's way of dealing with the problem is to treat it as one unbreakable word and "widen" the post. Sorry for the inconvenience, but, maybe it makes the point better than my words did.

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01 Jul 01 - 08:42 PM (#496182)
Subject: RE: BS: lower case posts with no punctuation
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull

Catspaw-What does BG mean?
It is very good to see you back here.john

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01 Jul 01 - 08:47 PM (#496184)
Subject: RE: BS: lower case posts with no punctuation
From: Cobble

I would think that people just making the effort would be enough, not every one is an editor or such. Cobble.

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01 Jul 01 - 08:56 PM (#496186)
Subject: RE: BS: lower case posts with no punctuation
From: Jim Dixon

Reading and writing have been around much longer than the Internet. If there were something superior about writing without grammar, punctuation, accurate spelling, and capitalization, the professional writers and editors of the world would have discovered that by now, and we would be seeing whole books, magazines, and newspapers being written that way.

"archy and mehitabel" is a good book, and I know at least one poem by e e cummings that I like a lot, but I don't see the world rushing to imitate them, so I don't plan to imitate them either.

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01 Jul 01 - 09:05 PM (#496192)
Subject: RE: BS: lower case posts with no punctuation
From: catspaw49

Effort IS the thing Cobble! Most people could care less about occasional typos or spelling errors or bad grammar and syntax. The questions is, are you doing your best to be understood or just taking the easy way out? Communication is the name of the game!!!

BG = Big Grin as opposed to BSEG.....(:<))...thanks john!

Spaw

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01 Jul 01 - 09:10 PM (#496197)
Subject: RE: BS: lower case posts with no punctuation
From: Murray MacLeod

Spaw meant to say "most people COULDN'T care less about typos, etc ".

Murray the mindreader

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01 Jul 01 - 09:12 PM (#496201)
Subject: RE: BS: lower case posts with no punctuation
From: Jeri

Spaw appears to have buggered off somewhere, so...
*BG* = Big Grin

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01 Jul 01 - 09:19 PM (#496203)
Subject: RE: BS: lower case posts with no punctuation
From: catspaw49

Actually, what I meant to say was, "Kiss my fockin' ass Murray" or something along those lines..............

(.......and sometimes things depend on who you are and how well you're known and your relationship to the person.....)

Spaw

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01 Jul 01 - 09:29 PM (#496205)
Subject: RE: BS: lower case posts with no punctuation
From: Little Hawk

ive just been all around orillia and i cant find one single post that has any punctuation some dirty words here and there but no punctuation none THERE WAS PLENTY OF UPPER CASE HOWEVER MOSTLY IN FACT hosers generally cannot manage lower case too well

LH

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01 Jul 01 - 09:33 PM (#496212)
Subject: RE: BS: lower case posts with no punctuation
From: catspaw49

Hawk, you're completely screwed. Check in at the NYCFTTS and we can have you partially functional in only a few months...........

Spaw

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01 Jul 01 - 09:38 PM (#496215)
Subject: RE: BS: lower case posts with no punctuation
From: Little Hawk

I know I'm completely screwed! Thank God there is someone who understands. Can I get a room with a Venus Flytrap in it?

- LH

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01 Jul 01 - 09:45 PM (#496218)
Subject: RE: BS: lower case posts with no punctuation
From: Jeri

Oops, Spaw obviously buggered back while I was feverishly typing those two lines.

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01 Jul 01 - 09:46 PM (#496219)
Subject: RE: BS: lower case posts with no punctuation
From: catspaw49

Sure Hawk.......and we'll assign Dr. Johnny Fever to your case.

Spaw

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01 Jul 01 - 10:42 PM (#496254)
Subject: RE: BS: lower case posts with no punctuation
From: wysiwyg

our friend ed just got a used computer and caught internet fever but he worked with his hands all his life and never as a writer and every email message he has sent me has looked just like this except he always signs them love ed

i do love ed he got us to play together when we first picked up our instruments a few years ago and just look at the result

and i would never dream of telling him how to write

except if he wrote in all caps

he does write that way when he writes with a pencil so thank god he likes lowercase for computer is what i say

he blesses us all and i don't judge him

he is the happiest person i know excpot maybe for his grandaughter my folkbaby and just seeing his name in my email makes me smile and if he posted here i would smile even more

and if anyone here was mean to him because he does not write like most if us do it would make me cry for a long long time and i might go away it would be too mean i couldn't bear to have brought him to a place where he would be looked down on

its an issue of classism don't you think

if we don't like to read things written this way we don't have to you know

susan

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01 Jul 01 - 11:00 PM (#496268)
Subject: RE: BS: lower case posts with no punctuation
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull

Thanks Catspaw.

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01 Jul 01 - 11:08 PM (#496271)
Subject: RE: BS: lower case posts with no punctuation
From: Murray MacLeod

I would hope that this is not in fact an issue of classism, Susan.

My feeling is that the vast majority of posts written like this are written by educated people (alright,young educated people, let's be ageist instead of classist) who know full well how to write properly, but who choose not to, for reasons best known to themselves.

That is their prerogative, just as it is mine to take issue with, and to poke gentle fun at, their stance.

Murray

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01 Jul 01 - 11:09 PM (#496272)
Subject: RE: BS: lower case posts with no punctuation
From: katlaughing

Like Spaw, I try to use as much emoticons :>\ and **BG**, etc. as possible in my postings to give some sort of idea of how I might sound were I speaking to you in person.

I like to play around with the spelling of words. I started using "kewl" because I like the looks of it. I started using "phoaks" because it contains the word "oak" which, to me, symbolises the longevity and steadfastness of "folk" music and thus, folk musicians, i.e. you all.

A long time ago, I would sometimes sign off with something run together to express my feelings, such as "katlaughingforrealthistime." It has always been in fun and nobody's ever really complained about it; some have even emulated it, perhaps too the extreme?

I don't mind no CAPS and I have a friend who refuses to capitalise his name or the word "I" because he does see it as a classist issue. I respect his choice.

I don't mind typos or missed punctuation, either. I admire people's words and the fact that they have made the effort to communicate.

It does bother me to try to read something made up of a lot of letter abbreviations. Sometimes I skip those.

On the whole, I've learned that instant electronic communication such as we have here is a bit more relaxed about conventions. It took me awhile to accept and understand that. Now, I see it as a lot of fun, esp. as I have to be so careful when writing for a real gig.

BTW, 53, no problem, no editors who are here AS editors.:-)

luvyakat laughing and leaving spaces just for those who may get irritated

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01 Jul 01 - 11:27 PM (#496284)
Subject: RE: BS: lower case posts with no punctuation
From: Murray MacLeod

Kat, I had Bart Simpson in mind rather than you when i wrote "kewl". That is how he pronounces it, to my ear at least.

Regarding lack of capitals, well to say it bothers me would be to overstate the issue. It does however smack to me something of the poseur, and pretentiousness of any sort always makes my hackles rise.

And please, do not alter your trademark signatures on my account! *BG*

Murray

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01 Jul 01 - 11:42 PM (#496290)
Subject: RE: BS: lower case posts with no punctuation
From: katlaughing

Murray,

No prob, man! (Was that "Bart" enough for you?)**BG** He does say "kew-ull" doesn't he? The spelling always reminds me of Kew Gardens which has always fascinated me, the Gardens that is, not that the spelling brings it up, oh, well....you know what I mean!

Anyway, I was just commenting, didn't take anything personally and this is just for you:

katwhohasabigsmileonherfacetomatchMurray'semoticon!

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01 Jul 01 - 11:51 PM (#496293)
Subject: RE: BS: lower case posts with no punctuation
From: George Seto - [e-mail]

I take the point that if the person refuses to at least spell and punctuate properly (or try) then they don't deserve the time it takes to try to figure out what they are trying to say. Sorry, but like them, I do NOT have the time to waste. IF they don't want to take that amount of time, they obviously don't respect the reader enough.

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02 Jul 01 - 12:03 AM (#496295)
Subject: RE: BS: lower case posts with no punctuation
From: katlaughing

Jaysus, George, betcha take no prisoners, too, huh?**BG**

How do you tell the difference when someone has tried or not? Some people, like InOBU have real disorders (which he has explained) which 'cause problems with spelling and punctuation; some, like Susan's friend, are new to keyboards of any kind and need a helping hand.

Sorry, but I'd be willing to bet you've missed out on some special postings with that kind of rigid policy.

kat who uses lower case "k" because once in a while, the person who first signed on as "Kat" shows up and I do not wish to cause her any trouble...

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02 Jul 01 - 12:09 AM (#496297)
Subject: RE: BS: lower case posts with no punctuation
From: katlaughing

I forgot to say, it may not be a matter of them taking the time. It may be the best they can do. And, really, this isn't English class. What of our English as a second language members?

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02 Jul 01 - 12:25 AM (#496308)
Subject: RE: BS: lower case posts with no punctuation
From: mg

I think we have too little to worry about if we can worry about all caps, no caps, whatever. If you don't like the format, just skip the post. If you don't care for what the person usually has to say, just skip the post. There are enough rules that have to be imposed on people for social order, safety, etc., to worry about their typing style. This is recreation for heavens' sake. And if you would prefer not to get carpal tunnel or some other RSD, be easy on the space bar and don't capitalize. Or just put everything in all caps. mg

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02 Jul 01 - 12:40 AM (#496315)
Subject: RE: BS: lower case posts with no punctuation
From: Jon Freeman

"What of our English as a second language members?"

Good question kat but perhaps that one could be twisted the other way... I really don't know but is it possible that these people are the most affected by the use of all lowercase and lack a lack of punctuation when it comes to trying to read a post?

Jon

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02 Jul 01 - 01:02 AM (#496323)
Subject: RE: BS: lower case posts with no punctuation
From: katlaughing

I don't know, Jon, a good question and I suppose it might be.

I just think we have to be a little forgiving, after all we are all human *beans* and all make mistakes.**BG**

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02 Jul 01 - 01:11 AM (#496327)
Subject: RE: BS: lower case posts with no punctuation
From: Terry K

It's a manners thing.

Speak as you would like to be spoken to, write as you would wish to be written to. Isn't it all about having respect for your reader/listener? Surely that is what good manners are all about, so if we all do our best - including those with disabilities - that's all we can ask.

Cheers, Terry

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02 Jul 01 - 01:31 AM (#496331)
Subject: RE: BS: lower case posts with no punctuation
From: texastoolman

you kow
i'm just sorry as all get out
if the way i choose to write
offended any of ya'lls deep sensibilities
but that's how i choose to do it
and if you don't like it
then just disregard anything i might have to say
and please go on to the next message
it took me awhile to figure out how to do thisw
without running everything together
perhaps some of the other folks
who write in don't know how it works
my god some of you folks
can sure be condescinding
as far as i know
i still have a right to express myself
anyway i please
if i'm wrong in this
just say so
and i won't bother you again
tex

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02 Jul 01 - 01:37 AM (#496333)
Subject: RE: BS: lower case posts with no punctuation
From: Terry K

...just so long as you did your best, tex

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02 Jul 01 - 01:49 AM (#496338)
Subject: RE: BS: lower case posts with no punctuation
From: Ebbie

I like your poetry, tex. :) Truthfully.

Ebbie

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02 Jul 01 - 01:59 AM (#496342)
Subject: RE: BS: lower case posts with no punctuation
From: texastoolman

thank you ebbie
i'm glad you understand my intent
it means somethng to me coming from you
you have real heart
tex

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02 Jul 01 - 02:13 AM (#496346)
Subject: RE: BS: lower case posts with no punctuation
From: Murray MacLeod

I could use an explanatory footnote to the first line of your poem, tex.
"You kow" Now, this might me a typo for "You know", or it might me directed at kat/katlaughing, which would be linguistically quite clever, but very insulting and in dreadfully poor taste, or it might be directed at me, in which case I will refrain from taking umbrage on the grounds that I have been called much worse in my time.

Murray

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02 Jul 01 - 03:36 AM (#496369)
Subject: RE: BS: lower case posts with no punctuation
From: RichM

periods are important
semicolons too
and leaving out your commas
will never never do
and leaving out a capital
is a capital offence

but in these times when toys and furniture
and many other things
are bought unassembled
and you must put them together

I offer the do it yourself
punctuation kit

see below and add where necessary, or by choice

! ? : ; ' . , - >br<

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02 Jul 01 - 04:05 AM (#496379)
Subject: RE: BS: lower case posts with no punctuation
From: Dave the Gnome

\have you read the new book by jeff noone\
\its very weird because it has no capitals or puntuation\
\apart from back-slashes\
\and carriage returns\

His earlier books are grammaticaly normal even if the stories are a bit strange. I have not yet started this one but it seems to be about the music business. Is the '\' and absense of any other punctuation anything to do with that? How rap songs are written? Modern day parlance? Or am I completely daft?

Cheers

DtG

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02 Jul 01 - 05:56 AM (#496422)
Subject: RE: BS: lower case posts with no punctuation
From: Firecat

the only reason people post in lower case letters and without punctuation a lot of the time is because its a lot quicker and easier

itsevenquickerandeasierbynotevenputtingspacesineventhoughthewritingcanturnouttonotbethateasytoread

Right, back to normal then!

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02 Jul 01 - 06:08 AM (#496427)
Subject: RE: BS: lower case posts with no punctuation
From: ard mhacha

Hello All, A very nice debate, but , please tell me why almost everyone refers to an interesting, good etc, subject as COOL. When I was young anything good was referred to as s--t hot, sounds a dam more descriptive than CCCCOOL, anyway, even in Summer here its always bloody CCCCOOL. Slan Ard Mhacha.

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02 Jul 01 - 06:21 AM (#496429)
Subject: RE: BS: lower case posts with no punctuation
From: The Cat's Whiskers

Lack of punctuation has it's merits I guess, it's the abreviations like "m8", "r", "u", "b4" and "2k1" that REALLY piss me off! What do you think of smileys?? :-)

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02 Jul 01 - 07:13 AM (#496450)
Subject: RE: BS: lower case posts with no punctuation
From: McGrath of Harlow

after all we are all human *beans* says kat.

I wouldn't bet on it myself.

My screen spelling used to be diabolical. I have no difficulty in spelling, but my fingers stray, and somehow on the screen my eyes don't pick up the typos. But then I found a little spellchecker that works with writing posts, and it makes life a lot easier for anybody trying to read what I've written - and it spots any Upper Case letters I've missed as well, or inappropriately put in.

I don't find it any quicker to leave out capitals letters. I suppose if I only had one hand I might, but typing with two fingers, one on each hand it is just as quick. After all, you can only put in one letter at a time, and whether it is upper case or lower case makes no difference to that.

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02 Jul 01 - 07:20 AM (#496456)
Subject: RE: BS: lower case posts with no punctuation
From: Geoff the Duck

In my experience of life, my purpose in talking to someone was to communicate ideas. If you wish to transfer an idea, then you must be understood by the recipient of the idea. If you know the person well, you will have a commonality of experiences including language, slang terms and shortcuts of expression. In that circumstance it is appropriate to use these shortcuts and slang terms.
If I am speaking to a stranger, I try to use an even tone of voice, and restrict my vocabulary to words likely to be in common parlance. It is polite, and also my meaning is more likely to be understood. It shows that you respect the needs of the other person! I could speak in Dailect or use only Technical Jargon, but I choose not to out of consideration to my audience, and also because there is no point in me speaking if I do not intend to be understood!!!
My suggestion to the low(ercase)lifes who do not use any capitals or punctuation would be. Please treat ME with some respect! What is the point of wasting your time posting if we are going to automatically ignore unintelligible gibberish?
Quack!!!
GtD

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02 Jul 01 - 07:39 AM (#496462)
Subject: RE: BS: lower case posts with no punctuation
From: McGrath of Harlow

What really makes it difficult to read is when people write long posts without putting in paragraph breaks. That is no doubt sometimes because they don't know how to - but I find I tend to skip right over the posts, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

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02 Jul 01 - 10:35 AM (#496556)
Subject: RE: BS: lower case posts with no punctuation
From: Bill D

and a big QUACK
of agreement to Geoff the Duck...well said!

Slang, cant, dialect, jargon and random spelling & punctuation are perfectly useful and acceptable in some circumstances, but I simply do NOT understand folks who cannot (or will not) make the effort to be comprehensible to those who don't know the code.

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02 Jul 01 - 11:04 AM (#496578)
Subject: RE: BS: lower case posts with no punctuation
From: Jim Dixon

How come "kewl" isn't spelled "QL"?

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02 Jul 01 - 11:07 AM (#496581)
Subject: RE: BS: lower case posts with no punctuation
From: Jon Freeman

McGrath, you're certainly not alone as I skip them too. That is unless I can see that someone has not left a blank line between paragraphs or alternatively has failed to use line breaks. In these instances, as a general rule, I edit the post to make it easier for all to read.

Jon

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02 Jul 01 - 11:29 AM (#496612)
Subject: RE: BS: lower case posts with no punctuation
From: Amos

As with any symbol system, especially a rich and flexible one like English, you have to differentiate in receiving posts between the intention to communicate genuinely but with a creative flourish, as in Tex' cummings-like poems, and the kind of insitutionalized attitude of neglect and indifferent passive-aggression which someone else might demonstrate by typing in all lower case because he "just didn't care" to use a convention. Similar symptom, totally different cause, and what is really interesting is that we can and do detect the difference with a fairly high degree of accuracy. When we get it wrong, and start treating a poetic flourish as a case of disrespectful ignoral of standard conventions, then, of course, we can really embarass ourselves. So perhaps it is a wise course not to be overly judgmental and condescending until the rights of the matter are really clear.

And e.e.cummings was not being pretentious, IMHO; he was being genuinely poetic in a direction not taken before. Bear in mind he preceded the Beat generation and their experimental typefaces by 20 years or perhaps a bit less; and I believe that his experiment was actually a success in that it opened a new modality to poetry.

A

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02 Jul 01 - 11:36 AM (#496617)
Subject: RE: BS: lower case posts with no punctuation
From: CET

Sigh.

I'm an editor by trade. Part of my job is teaching Canadian Forces members and federal civil servants to write plain English. Every group includes somebody who says, "Why do I have to bother with [punctuation, capitalization, etc.--skill he or she lacks] when people understand me?" I always reply, "How do you know they understand you? Have you asked them all?" And, sure enough, I soon find that many are accustomed to handling barrages of telephone calls and e-mails demanding clarification of their written instructions, requests and explanations. I do my level best to teach them to get to the point, and explain that point in simple sentences following the conventions of written English, so their work can be done with the release of the original message.

Many people believe that writing in a fancy or complex way makes them seem more interesting or appealing. I think that this is a delusion, and that people who use odd or contrived writing styles -- including those writing e-mails and Internet posts -- do so for one of two reasons: they don't know enough words, or they are not taking the trouble to use the words they know.

In my admittedly arrogant opinion.

Charmion

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02 Jul 01 - 12:07 PM (#496638)
Subject: RE: BS: lower case posts with no punctuation
From: chip a

Hooray for you, Geoff the Duck! I couldn't agree more. Lets remember that we're not talking to ourselves here.

I don't mind reading posts written in all lower case or any other way if I don't have to struggle to understand them. If it's hard to read, I skip it and go on.

I never learned how to write and use punctuation very well during my short stay in public school. I'll bet there are lots of others like me who are doing their best even if it's not up to the standards of the grammar police. I do try to make it readable though.

What's a line break?

Chip A.

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02 Jul 01 - 12:22 PM (#496645)
Subject: RE: BS: lower case posts with no punctuation
From: Jon Freeman

A line break is a bit of HTML that looks like this: <br>

With the text entry system at Mudcat, text that is not separated by one blank line will appear as one big chunk in the final post unless HTML such as the line break is added - you've probably seen lyric posts where all the lines of a verse appear as one line of text or as a paragraph.

Jon

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02 Jul 01 - 12:30 PM (#496649)
Subject: RE: BS: lower case posts with no punctuation
From: Don Firth

If I have something to say that I feel is worth saying, I try to say it as clearly and understandably as possible. Why make it difficult if you are really trying to communicate?

Unique style is one thing. If consistent, it can be polished until it's understandable. That's what Don Marquis and e.e.cummings did. That's far different from just being a lazy slob.

Don Firth

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02 Jul 01 - 12:35 PM (#496651)
Subject: RE: BS: lower case posts with no punctuation
From: texastoolman

good for you amos
you understand what i'm doing as well
i am a poet by nature
have been since my teen-age years
i have and will cotinue to write in this fashion
i imagine i talk the same way
those who don't like my writing
probably wouldn't like my accent either
t s (tough situation)
in regards murray's comment about my typo
as dylan said "you're a cow"
not kat
................................tex

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02 Jul 01 - 01:24 PM (#496694)
Subject: RE: BS: lower case posts with no punctuation
From: marty D

Hang tough Murray. Even if some people aren't doing it on purpose due to lack of keyboard skills or various ailments, it still LOOKS like the rapid 'Dumbing Down' that makes some of us shake our heads in wonder. The problem of course is that in this day and age ANY suggestion that implies people could try harder, immediately becomes a 'Political issue'. I sure don't have it all together as far as grammatical or spelling skills, but I at least re-read what I've written a couple of times before pushing the button.

Still get in trouble now and then though!

marty

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02 Jul 01 - 01:28 PM (#496698)
Subject: RE: BS: lower case posts with no punctuation
From: katlaughing

thanks fer thet, Tex
yer a real gentleman
with the accent to prove it, I'll bet
'course, so's McGrath, defending m'carcass
i reckon we've all got our foibles
so let's not loose the foils
nor slings and arrows
just doing our best and being kewl!**BG**

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02 Jul 01 - 01:37 PM (#496704)
Subject: RE: BS: lower case posts with no punctuation
From: wysiwyg

"So perhaps it is a wise course not to be overly judgmental and condescending until the rights of the matter are really clear."

Yes, once we are sure what's right, then we want to go ahead and be as judgmental and condescending as we like.

Really? There'a new goal to shoot for!

;~)

~Susan

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02 Jul 01 - 04:14 PM (#496836)
Subject: RE: BS: lower case posts with no punctuation
From: McGrath of Harlow

For a new paragraph you put a P (or p)in those angle brackets instead of a BR - or do it with BR (or br) twice. The single BR is what you need when you need to make it a new line in a song or poem.

Sooner or later we'll get some joker who decides the way to get noticed is to switch the lower case and upper case around.

tHIS IS THE KIND OF THING i MEAN...

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02 Jul 01 - 05:33 PM (#496918)
Subject: RE: BS: lower case posts with no punctuation
From: Kim C

I was an English major so of course I can appreciate good punctuation and spelieeng

Seriously... I guess many of us have our own unique way of speaking, and some may want that to translate to the written word.

My brother, who just turned 46, is new to computers and e-mail and all that. He doesn't type too well. But he ain't heavy, so I don't hold it agin him. ;-)

Also I think there is a difference between formal and informal speech/writing, and that there is a time and place for each.

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02 Jul 01 - 06:07 PM (#496958)
Subject: RE: BS: lower case posts with no punctuation
From: Áine

Dear Murray,

I humbly beg your pardon for puttin' a twist in your britches and using lower case in some of my postings. I confess, in front of God and the Mudcat, that I have typed without using the Shift key -- mea culpa.

However, I have done this terrible thing to communicate to a fellow 'Catter, shamefully neglecting to use my little finger on the keyboard, only as an homage to Dom Marquis (and, of course, archie and mehitabel); an author and characters which are dear to myself and the 'Catter who shall not be named.

Please accept my apologia for distressing you. I did not know what I did do. However, I shall remain 'tourjour gay, tourjour gay' and assume my very small identity and similarly small typing style when it suits me. as for yourself, dear murray, take the bosses advice and 'skip it' if it bothers you too much -- otherwise, i'll have to sic mehitabel on ya...

-- Áine

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02 Jul 01 - 11:13 PM (#497167)
Subject: RE: BS: lower case posts with no punctuation
From: Amos

For those who wish to continue citing the cockroach, please note it is "toujours" and "gai", meaning "keep on smilin'" or "keep your pecker up" or "always lighthearted" or something of the kind. "Toujours" is a contraction (well, maybe a compression) of tous les jours and "gai" means gay in the old-fashioned cheery sense.:>)

Walther P. Picky-Picky
Anal-Retentive Sans Portfolio

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02 Jul 01 - 11:22 PM (#497175)
Subject: RE: BS: lower case posts with no punctuation
From: Murray MacLeod

Wasn't going to mention this, kinda hoped the thread would die, but the author of Archie and Mehitabel has twice been misspelt as Dom Marquis. He was in fact as I recollect, Don Marquis.

"Dom Marquis" would probably be a kewl title for a musical about the life and times of de Sade, however.

Murray Anal Retentive Avec Portfolio

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03 Jul 01 - 09:45 AM (#497442)
Subject: RE: BS: lower case posts with no punctuation
From: bbc

Maybe it's just me. This is the 2nd thread I've opened today that seems to have a lot of anger in it. You might want to think *why* the way others post makes you angry. Like Kim, I was an English major. I also took typing in school. As long as I can figure out what something says, I don't spend a lot of time thinking about how it was written. I do have some concerns about society, since it doesn't seem that kids are being taught spelling & grammar anymore. Many of the teachers of my generation seem to have little grasp of proper sentence form. On Mudcat, though, I am interested in *what* people say, not how they say it. The things that concern me are negative attitudes & emotions. Out-of-the-norm structure could be caused by so many things of which we are unaware--lack of education, non-English speakers, learning disabilities, physical disabilities, etc. Do you want to inhibit such folks from joining our discussions? I don't.

respectfully,

bbc

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03 Jul 01 - 11:00 AM (#497508)
Subject: RE: BS: lower case posts with no punctuation
From: katlaughing

well-said, bbc

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03 Jul 01 - 11:20 AM (#497523)
Subject: RE: BS: lower case posts with no punctuation
From: Les from Hull

Well I've also stayed out of this so far, but here's my two small copper coins worth.

I'm more interested in what people have to say, than in the way they say it. Personally I don't care too much how people post (although all capital letters is hard to read, so I probably won't). Like many of us say, there may be all sorts of reasons why people write the way they do.

But like others here, I suspect, I'm much more impressed by well-written, correctly typed and spelt postings. I can't help it. It's the way I am. I used to teach effective writing, so I'm glad to see when people have writing skills and use them.

If people are interested enough, they will improve their writing skills. There are classes, books and tutoring available, the same as for musical skills. It's a useful life skill, being able to write well. It's one I would certainly recommend. But it's not often vital.

Les

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03 Jul 01 - 11:30 AM (#497535)
Subject: RE: BS: lower case posts with no punctuation
From: Kim C

Good writing skills are important. But not everyone has them, and some people never learn. At least us math-impaired folks have the advantage of the hand-held calculator, without which I would be a complete and total mathematical idiot. I don't think any of my pards think less of me because my math skills aren't too great.

Now, if we could come up with a spell/grammar check that actually WORKED.............

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03 Jul 01 - 11:38 AM (#497540)
Subject: RE: BS: lower case posts with no punctuation
From: Gervase

Speech recognition software's getting better all the time. I've tried out IBM's ViaVoice on a couple of Macs and been impressed by the results.
The program has to "learn" the user's voice pattern, and the more time spent "coaching" it the better the end result, but it does allow you to blather away to the machine and see the results as text, complete with proper capitalisation, punctuation and formatting.
For meself I still prefer to type (particularly as colleagues could be puzzled if I start ranting at the screen when posting here!), and I don't think any program is yet able to write HTML - which means that even a post written by a speech-recognition program would need to be tweaked and formatted with the line-breaks and other odds and sods.
But if your not a natural with the tripewriter, then ViaVoice (or its rival, Dragon Dictate) would seem a pretty good alternative.

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03 Jul 01 - 12:23 PM (#497578)
Subject: RE: BS: lower case posts with no punctuation
From: Don Firth

bbc, I agree with what you say, and I am not angry or hostile. My concern is as follows: you say On Mudcat, though, I am interested in *what* people say, not how they say it. Me also. The problem is that sometimes whatsomeone says is rendered so difficult to figure out by the way they say it that I wonder if I want to be bothered to spend the time and effort to decode it. If a person is challenged in some way, that's one thing. But if one really wishes to be understood, I think they should at least make minimal effort to be understandable. Seems simple enough to me.

"Style" is fine. But when style interferes with comprehensibility, it defeats the purpose.

Don Firth

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03 Jul 01 - 01:02 PM (#497608)
Subject: RE: BS: lower case posts with no punctuation
From: Mary in Kentucky

Speaking as one with minimal disabilities myself, I've observed that people with disabilities are usually the ones who spend extra time making their communications understandable, ie whatever it takes to blend in and not appear different from others.

My 82-year-old uncle who sends me email spends a lot of time hunting and pecking his letters, and I've seen improvement as he learns to type faster. His letters are longer now! ;-)

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03 Jul 01 - 01:09 PM (#497616)
Subject: RE: BS: lower case posts with no punctuation
From: bbc

True enough, Don. There are certainly times I get aggravated trying to understand what's being said through the idiosyncrasies. It's always our choice to not read. I've embarrassed myself a few times, though, assuming that something was done by choice when, in fact, it was the best that person could manage. I'd prefer to give the benefit of the doubt. And, yes, you are right, Mary. Many times, those w/ problems try harder than others. The world's a big place w/ many kinds in it. Let's just continue to be aware of that fact. I love the broadness of the world Mudcat puts me in touch w/--more than my day-to-day life ever could!

best,

bbc

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03 Jul 01 - 01:10 PM (#497618)
Subject: RE: BS: lower case posts with no punctuation
From: katlaughing

Dragon Naturally Speaking is expensive, but the trial version I tried out did a good job of speech recognition, too. Saves on repetitive movement syndromes, too.

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03 Jul 01 - 01:22 PM (#497625)
Subject: RE: BS: lower case posts with no punctuation
From: Bill D

grammar checkers are 'down the road' a bit, I'm afraid, and I will tolerate those who obviously haven't had the education/practice .......but as I have posted several times, if you have a PC, a spelling checker for typing right HERE, in this box, is only as far away as this clicky FREE spelling checker...for several languages.

as to lack of capitals OR ALL CAPS, that is a matter of attitude and, perhaps, in the case of e.e. cummings and tex, a matter of taste/art.

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04 Jul 01 - 07:26 AM (#498137)
Subject: RE: BS: lower case posts with no punctuation
From: Lyndi-loo

I don't like the idea of posting via a speech regonition device. My God, people would ramble on for hours and as people generally speak less grammatically than they write, the result would be a long, pig's ear of a posting that nobody could be bothered to read.(I just noticed there I had to put in a comma between long and pig otherwise the meaning would be totally different!) *BG*
LL

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04 Jul 01 - 07:27 AM (#498142)
Subject: RE: BS: lower case posts with no punctuation
From: Lyndi-loo

Whoops, I meant "recognition". This keyboard can't spell for toffee!

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04 Jul 01 - 07:40 AM (#498153)
Subject: RE: BS: lower case posts with no punctuation
From: Gervase

Different? Could be tasty in some parts of Polynesia!
The idea of human pork scratchings doesn't do much for me, though :^)

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04 Jul 01 - 10:16 AM (#498256)
Subject: RE: BS: lower case posts with no punctuation
From: McGrath of Harlow

(Thread drifty) I've always thought there could be a big market for Cannibal Crisps, with authentic artificial human-flavour. You can already get hedgehog-flavour crisps on the same principle, guaranteed to contain no real hedgehog but to taste the same as if they did.

Kids would love them You could have a picture of Hannibal Lector on the packets confirming that the taste was accurate...

When I write stuff on Word it keeps on trying to correct my grammar. I resent that a little, because I think my grammar is better than that of Word.

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04 Jul 01 - 11:03 AM (#498290)
Subject: RE: BS: lower case posts with no punctuation
From: Les from Hull

McGrath - you can switch the grammar checker off, or you can switch off the bits that you don't like. I can't believe it, I'm sticking up for Microsoft :o(

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04 Jul 01 - 11:08 AM (#498294)
Subject: RE: BS: lower case posts with no punctuation
From: Uncle_DaveO

Lyndi-Loo:

A "long pigs-ear of a posting" might have been better.

Dave Oesterreich

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04 Jul 01 - 01:06 PM (#498361)
Subject: RE: BS: lower case posts with no punctuation
From: Don Firth

Whether you use the keyboard or a voice-recogniton program, you should still read it over and do a bit of editing to make sure that it clearly says what you want it to say.

Don Firth

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04 Jul 01 - 01:33 PM (#498392)
Subject: RE: BS: lower case posts with no punctuation
From: Amos

Given the basic ability -- to type comfortably and handle English comfortably -- why not strive within reason to make your communications more effective?

A

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05 Jul 01 - 02:27 AM (#498731)
Subject: RE: BS: lower case posts with no punctuation
From: Crazy Eddie

Dave O: A "long pigs-ear of a posting" might have been better.
Shouldn't that read "long pig's-ear of a posting" ? :o)
Pedantic Eddie

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05 Jul 01 - 03:23 AM (#498742)
Subject: RE: BS: lower case posts with no punctuation
From: katlaughing

McGrath, better they should use a real character on the packages in the name of Alferd (sic) Packer. He's even got a song about him by Phil Ochs which could be tied in.:-)

BTW, wouldn't a "pig's ear of a long post" have been best?

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05 Jul 01 - 10:32 AM (#498928)
Subject: RE: BS: lower case posts with no punctuation
From: Angie

i'm just too lazy to care

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05 Jul 01 - 11:10 AM (#498944)
Subject: RE: BS: lower case posts with no punctuation
From: Jack the Sailor

if youve red this far i admire UR patients

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06 Jul 01 - 11:04 AM (#499808)
Subject: RE: BS: lower case posts with no punctuation
From: Geoff the Duck

tHE ONE WHICH ANNOYS ME iS WHEN THE COMPUTER DECIDES TO sWITCH TO cAPS lOCK WHEN i AIN'T LOOKING!
Quack!

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10 Jul 01 - 01:15 PM (#503182)
Subject: RE: BS: lower case posts with no punctuation
From: wysiwyg

RELATED THREAD.

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10 Jul 01 - 11:09 PM (#503669)
Subject: RE: BS: lower case posts with no punctuation
From: Mark Cohen

Most of my patients are too young for this Forum, Rob. But they'd probably appreciate the admiration!

Aloha,
Mark

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