Quotation text Req: Then they came for me?

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Quotation text Req: Then they came for me?

09 Sep 01 - 05:27 PM (#545815)
Subject: Then they came for me?
From: The Shambles

I have been trying to dig up that poem/song about.

They came for the communists, and I was not a communist, so I did nothing.

And so on............

Thanks

09 Sep 01 - 05:35 PM (#545817)
Subject: RE: Then they came for me?
From: Roger in Sheffield

I have heard a similar song sung by Christy Moore

09 Sep 01 - 05:48 PM (#545822)
Subject: RE: Then they came for me?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull

I have been trying to find this one as well, as far as I can remember it is something like....

I have missed a few lines out, does anybody know the rest or who wrote it?

09 Sep 01 - 05:57 PM (#545831)
Subject: RE: Then they came for me?
From: Roger in Sheffield

these?

09 Sep 01 - 05:59 PM (#545832)
Subject: RE: Then they came for me?
From: Sorcha

Not quite, Roger, here is the full text:

First They Came for the Jews

First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.

Pastor Martin Niemöller

09 Sep 01 - 06:00 PM (#545834)
Subject: RE: Then they came for me?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull

The missing two lines in the poem are trade unionists and catholics, it was written by Pastor Martin Niemoller.

09 Sep 01 - 06:05 PM (#545838)
Subject: RE: Then they came for me?
From: Joe Offer

I knew it was by a German theologian, but I guessed the wrong one. It was a quote from Martin Niemöller (1892-1984). Don't know the original source, but it was published in the U.S. Congressional Record 14 October 1968:

When Hitler attacked the Jews I was not a Jew, therefore, I was not concerned.
And when Hitler attacked the Catholics, I was not a Catholic, and therefore, I was not concerned.
And when Hitler attacked the unions and the industrialists, I was not a member of the unions and I was not concerned.
Then Hitler attacked me and the Protestant church - and there was nobody left to be concerned.
often quoted in the form "In Germany they came first for the Communists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a communist..." and so on
Source: Oxford Dictionary of Quotations

-Joe Offer-

09 Sep 01 - 06:05 PM (#545839)
Subject: RE: Then they came for me?
From: Gareth

Pastor Martin Miemoller,

Executed in the aftermath of the "Officers Plot" against Hitler - his words are still apt today.

Gareth

09 Sep 01 - 06:05 PM (#545840)
Subject: RE: Then they came for me?
From: SINSULL

Another bit on a similar theme "And The World Was Made Clean". A short story about racial hatred which wiped out all but one man and one woman. She was freckled; he was not. And they despised each other. Sorry for the creep.

09 Sep 01 - 06:20 PM (#545850)
Subject: ADD: Yellow Triangle (Christy Moore)
From: Joe Offer

Ah, Gareth, you got caught by a variation of the same misconception I had. I thought the quote was from Dietrich Bonhöffer, who was executed in a concentration camp in 1945 as a consequence of his involvement in the 1944 plot to assassinate Hitler. It's not - it's from Martin Niemöller (1892-1984). Niemöller also spent time in a concentration camp for his opposition to Hitler. Another source said the quote came from an address he gave to the U.S. Congress in 1968.
Here's the song by Christy Moore that Roger linked to. It's usually better to post lyrics of songs that we don't have here, along with a link to the source where you found them.

Yellow Triangle
(Christy Moore)

CHORUS

      Am       F            Am
        Black triangle, pink triangle
                 F            Am
        Green triangle, red triangle
                 F             Am
        Blue triangle, lilac triangle
                 F  G             Am
        And they wore the yellow triangle

                  C            G                 Am
     When first they came for the criminals I did not speak
     F          C                 G
     Then they began to take the Jews
     F                     C               G                Am
     When the fetched the people who were members of trade unions
     F-G        Am
     I did not speak
               C               G        C                G
     When they took the Bible students, rounded up the homosexuals
                F               G                 Am
     Then they gathered up the immigrants and the gypsies
     Am
     I did not speak, I did not speak
           F          C       E7                F      G       Am 
     Eventually they came for me and there was no one left to speak
     
     CHORUS

by Christy Moore (after Pastor Niemöller - dedicated to the
memory of Phyllis Mcghee)

09 Sep 01 - 06:38 PM (#545854)
Subject: RE: Then they came for me?
From: Gareth

Joe - well spotted - my chapel days need refreshing.

Gareth

10 Sep 01 - 05:59 AM (#546083)
Subject: RE: Then they came for me?
From: Wolfgang

There's a curious story behind which I do not understand yet. The citation differs a lot according to the language of the webpage. I have not been able yet to find any reference in German that could be tranlated as the citation in the Congressional record. All German versions I have located go more or less like this:

Als die Nazis die Kommunisten geholt haben, habe ich geschwiegen;
ich war ja kein Kommunist.
Als sie die Sozialdemokraten einsperrten, habe ich geschwiegen;
ich war ja kein Sozialdemokrat.
Als sie die Katholiken holten, habe ich nicht protestiert;
ich war ja kein Katholik.
Als die Nazis mich holten,
gab es niemanden mehr, der protestieren konnte.
(Martin Niemöller)

That is: First communists, then social democrats, then catholics.

Maybe Niemöller used the basic idea more than once, fitting the exact succession of groups to the repective opportunity, maybe the first translation was overly 'creative'.

I'll try to find out where exactly this citation comes from.

Wolfgang

10 Sep 01 - 11:02 AM (#546255)
Subject: RE: Then they came for me?
From: Bagpuss

I wrote a tune for this poem, but it was for my GCSE (many moons ago) and consequently, its a bit crap!

Bagpuss

11 Sep 01 - 09:58 AM (#546983)
Subject: RE: Then they came for me?
From: GeorgeH

Starting from Joe's link, I'd recommend people to go one click further to: "Who was Martin Niemoller"

Also this gives an eye-witness accoutn of his arrest.

In addition I find there was an "award winning (cinema) documentary of his life" made in 1985.

However, like Wolfgang I can't find a German text of the words. And I've found three different attributions of when they were uttered; perhaps the most likely is that they were made in 1945 on Niemoller's release from concentration camp. (Which would put them later than his autobiography . . . )

11 Sep 01 - 11:26 AM (#547070)
Subject: RE: Then they came for me?
From: wysiwyg

Guess "they" came for "us," today.

~S~

12 Sep 01 - 05:39 PM (#548382)
Subject: RE: Then they came for me?
From: The Shambles

All of us..........

13 Sep 01 - 09:21 AM (#548828)
Subject: RE: Then they came for me?
From: GeorgeH

A comment I almost made in my last post was that I suspect Martin Niemoller would be horrified at some of those who have adopted his words for their narrowly-focused ends.

As I think Shambles was saying, recent events are a crime against humanity . . but also represent a failure of humankind to resolve the desparate problems facing the world today. Something which Niemoller, in the latter part of his life, would have understood perfectly.

13 Sep 01 - 10:32 AM (#548865)
Subject: RE: Then they came for me?
From: The Shambles

The power of these words are their very simplicity.

All that is being said here is that we pretty well always know what we should be doing..........But can find many reasons not to do it......Until.....

24 Sep 01 - 02:09 AM (#557487)
Subject: RE: Then they came for me?
From: The Shambles

How is the research going?

24 Sep 01 - 06:31 AM (#557542)
Subject: RE: Then they came for me?
From: Wolfgang

I have failed to find a source in a couple of searches.

Wolfgang

21 Feb 03 - 05:59 AM (#895027)
Subject: RE: Then they came for me?
From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar

Any reliable source on Dr Otto Dibelius.

He was also highly regarded as a German Protestant cleric who spoke out against the Nazis, but he was portrayed in a very unflattering light in a recent film version of Hochhuth's "Der Stellvertreter" (sorry, can't remember the English title of the film).

21 Feb 03 - 06:40 AM (#895039)
Subject: RE: Then they came for me?
From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar

Obviously, my first sentence above should have a question mark.

21 Feb 03 - 06:52 AM (#895042)
Subject: RE: Then they came for me?
From: GUEST

Why is this thread linked to the PEL threads? From what I can tell, nothing in the thread has anything to do with PEL.

21 Feb 03 - 09:48 PM (#895598)
Subject: RE: Then they came for me?
From: michaelr

Must be because The Shambles started it... a Mudcat mistake.

I believe it was a mistake. It's now unlinked. --JoeClone

I did the original grouping for the PEL threads, basing it on the "PEL: Links to all of them" thread. Since this thread was on the list, I included it. I was mistaken. The JoeClone was correct to remove it from the PEL group.
-Joe Offer-

Shambles stated, in the thread on Thread Proliferation that he HAD wanted it to be grouped with the PEL threads, so it's back. --JoeClone

4 March 03 -Well, I guess Shambles succeeded in his attempt to manipulate us into looking silly. The thread has been removed from the PEL group. This decision is final.
-Joe Offer-

24 Feb 03 - 05:02 PM (#897666)
Subject: RE: Then they came for me?
From: Susanne (skw)

An Pluiméir Ceolmhar, how good is your German? I found a few sites on Bishop Otto Dibelius, but they're all in German. If that's no use to you I'll try to give you the gist in English. Send a message to skw at worldmusic dot de.

24 Feb 03 - 05:10 PM (#897675)
Subject: RE: Then they came for me?
From: Frankham

Wasn't he a converted pacifist who originally invented the Nazi U-boat?

Frank

25 Feb 03 - 05:40 AM (#898092)
Subject: RE: Then they came for me?
From: The Shambles

It was NOT a mistake.

Perhaps it could kindly be re-linked?

Perhaps Joe you could have checked, before acting on what you beleived?

25 Feb 03 - 05:54 AM (#898098)
Subject: RE: Then they came for me?
From: JennyO

I'm sorry - am I missing something? Could Shambles please explain why he wants this linked to PEL threads? I can't see the connection. I'm not saying there isn't one in some way, but maybe it needs a little more explanation.

Jenny

25 Feb 03 - 06:11 AM (#898107)
Subject: RE: Then they came for me?
From: Wolfgang

Martin Niemöller was a submarine commander in WWI, not its inventor.
Please keep PEL out of this thread.

Wolfgang

25 Feb 03 - 06:21 AM (#898112)
Subject: RE: Then they came for me?
From: The Shambles

We're Alright Jack. A link to a song in the Mudcat Songbook.

25 Feb 03 - 08:18 AM (#898169)
Subject: RE: Then they came for me?
From: JennyO

Okay, I thought it might be something like that, but I wasn't sure.

I must admit I haven't been reading the PEL threads much, because I am in Oz - what we are having trouble with here is Public Liability Insurance. Because we are getting to be such a litigious society, premiums are going sky high, and people who want to hold an event, even a street party, are finding that they can't get council permission without taking out expensive insurance.

It all seems to be symptomatic of the trend towards ordinary people's lives being complicated and restricted by rules and "guidelines" imposed by various government bodies, and the eroding of personal freedom. I care about this very much.

Jenny

22 Apr 03 - 12:49 PM (#937819)
Subject: RE: Then they came for me?
From: Wolfgang

I've often tried in vain, but now I might have found the source(s): click for a scholarly website about this citation

First, they came for the Jews is historically wrong and Niemöller never would have said that. Correct is: first they came for the communists though this line is omitted in several English language versions. Even some holocaust memorials get it wrong.

Each one seems to misquote according to his or her own agenda. Gore, for instance, never cites the line about the trade unionists but loves to include the Roman Catholics that never have been mentioned by Niemöller in this context.

As late as 1979, in Blätter für Deutsche und Internationale Politik (not cited in Marcuse's website as far as I see), Niemöller did write first communists, then social democrats, then him.

He was arrested in 1937 a year before the large scale arrests (and murders) of the Jews and after the arrests of communists and Social democrats. So his time-line makes personal sense.

However, I know that this citation now has a life of its own and most people do not care about correctness.

Wolfgang

22 Apr 03 - 07:32 PM (#938105)
Subject: RE: Then they came for me?
From: The Shambles

Thank you Wolfgang, it is good that some folk do care about correctness.

It probably matters more to me that folk act correctly. The point of the piece for me is more the spirit of it - that people usually know what is the correct thing to do.

The spirit of it would have been relevant many times before the 1930s.

21 Dec 04 - 04:09 AM (#1362158)
Subject: RE: Then they came for me?
From: The Shambles

This quote was mentioned in a current thread so I thought it might be a good time to refresh this thread.

21 Dec 04 - 04:43 AM (#1362193)
Subject: RE: Then they came for me?
From: GUEST

First they came for the playwrights....

20 Nov 07 - 05:36 AM (#2198128)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Then they came for me?
From: Joe Offer

This Web page (click) is a remarkably detailed (and remarkably inconclusive) study of this quote. It seems clear that we will never find a definitive version of the quote.

-Joe-