Origins of: Barbara Allen, is there a story ?

11 Sep 01 - 10:11 AM (#546998)
Subject: Barbara Allen, is there a story ?
From: Hilary

Does anybody know if there is a story behind the song.

Thank you

H

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11 Sep 01 - 11:49 AM (#547093)
Subject: RE: Barbara Allen, is there a story ?
From: IanC

No, but the BBC just did a play based on the song this afternoon. Is that what you're asking about?

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11 Sep 01 - 11:54 AM (#547102)
Subject: RE: Barbara Allen, is there a story ?
From: Sorcha

Go to the white (NOT Blue) seach box on the Main Forum page. It says Digitrad and Forum Search. Type in Barbara Allen and hit search. You should find enough to keep you busy for a few days.

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11 Sep 01 - 02:58 PM (#547293)
Subject: RE: Barbara Allen, is there a story ?
From: Llanfair

The play wasn't bad. As good a theory as any.
Cheers, Bron.

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11 Sep 01 - 06:44 PM (#547528)
Subject: Index: Barbara Allen threads
From: George Seto - [e-mail]

Barbara Allan #1
 
Barbara Allan #2
 
Barbara Allan #3
 
Barbara Allan #4
 
Barbara Allan #5
 
Barbara Allan #6
 
Barbara Allan - DT 2
 
Barbara Allan - DT 2
 
Barbara Allan - DT 3
 

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11 Sep 01 - 09:34 PM (#547659)
Subject: RE: Barbara Allen, is there a story ?
From: sophocleese

Do you know in the few versions that I've heard I hadn't realized it was a knight that lay dying..Its kind of neat, but such is the power of the first version taht I cannot get rid of the image of a somewhat ordinary young man out of my head for it.

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11 Sep 01 - 09:46 PM (#547664)
Subject: RE: Origins of: Barbara Allen, is there a story ?
From: dick greenhaus

There's obviously something in this story (sometimes referred to as "the bitch and the wimp") that strikes a chord. IT's the most-often-encountered CHild Ballad, and is frequently referred to by the folk as "something that happened in the next town".

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12 Sep 01 - 03:10 AM (#547877)
Subject: RE: Origins of: Barbara Allen, is there a story ?
From: Hilary

Much thanks to everybody,

Especially to George for the 'clicky' links, as I can very rarely manage to get the forum search to work - I promise I do try afore posting a query. I must figure out why. Much fasinating material to pore over.

I heard the last 10 minutes of the play on radio 4 yesterday - which left me wondering if there was a 'true' story behind the song. ( Dainty Davie, Thomas the Rhymer, Sir Patrick Spens come to mind immmediately.)

I find it amazing that connections can be found with people from so long ago. History at school was nothing like this.

I completely agree with Dick that the story strikes a chord, but as I sing unaccompanied I can't actually do that.

Thanks everyone

H

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12 Sep 01 - 04:35 AM (#547896)
Subject: RE: Origins of: Barbara Allen, is there a story ?
From: IanC

Our village church is made of very soft stone and, over the centuries, inscriptions - graffiti - have been carved there. One or two of these are quite important. Two are plague inscriptions from the mid 14th century and one has been identified as a drawing of Old St Paul's Cathedral before it was destroyed in the fire of 1666. The one which has always intrigued me, though, is one (probably 14th or 15th Century) which says, in Latin:

"Barbara is what Barbara Says"

(the name Barbara means "Barbarian"). The original Barbara Ellen??

By the way, I think the "Traditional Ballad Index" is out of line in describing the young man as a knight. I have never seen a version which suggests this.

Cheers!
Ian

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12 Sep 01 - 03:28 PM (#548282)
Subject: RE: Origins of: Barbara Allen, is there a story ?
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)

A couple of the versions in Bronson begin "In Scarlet Town where I was born." Is this a fictional place or was Scarlet Town a sobriquet for a real town?

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12 Sep 01 - 05:58 PM (#548400)
Subject: RE: Origins of: Barbara Allen, is there a story ?
From: Uncle_DaveO

I've always been bemused by the effortless way people had of dying on the least provocation in the old stories and songs, typically "of a broken heart". In Ewan McColl's version on Folkways/Smithsonian, it seems that he may have stabbed himself. Don't have the words immediately at hand, but it's to the effect that "Put your hand down by my side, and it will come up red, where my shirt has bled for her," or something like that.

Dave Oesterreich

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12 Sep 01 - 06:20 PM (#548415)
Subject: RE: Origins of: Barbara Allen, is there a story ?
From: Malcolm Douglas

There are a further two sets in the DT besides those George mentions above:

BARBARA ELLEN (3)  With tune; noted by Cecil Sharp; the DT file does not say where, when or from whom.
BAWBEE ALLAN  With tune; transcribed from a record by Ewan MacColl.  Traditional source not given.

So far as the placename is concerned, Robert Bell (Ancient Poems, Ballads and Songs of the Peasantry of England, 1857) comments:

"In Percy's version of Barbara Allen, that ballad commences "In Scarlet town," which, in the common stall copies, is rendered "In Redding town."  The former is apparently a pun upon the old orthography - REDding."

While that is not impossible, it should be noted that the "stall copies" referred to are all later than the texts in the Reliques.  Chappell (Popular Music of the Olden Time, 1859) added:

"It has been suggested that for "Scarlet" town... we should read "Carlisle" town.  Some of the later printed copies have "Reading" town."

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12 Oct 02 - 10:23 PM (#802022)
Subject: RE: Origins of: Barbara Allen, is there a story ?
From: GUEST,hilton c

While hearing for the first time the last verse concerning the union of the rose and the briar, I could not help but wonder if perhaps this sprang from a legend of why roses have thorns.

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13 Oct 02 - 07:40 AM (#802163)
Subject: RE: Origins of: Barbara Allen, is there a story ?
From: masato sakurai

I've just listened to a musically unique version of "Barbara Allen" [mp3] at this site.

Barbara Allen
Performed by: Frank Luther and his Pards
Composed by: Maggie Andrews
Edison Diamond Disc
Matrix Number: 18654-A-1-2
Release Number: 52377-L
Recording Date: 1928
Release Date: 1928

~Masato

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13 Oct 02 - 03:24 PM (#802378)
Subject: RE: Origins of: Barbara Allen, is there a story ?
From: GUEST

The National Park Service site found by Masato is nicely set up for mp3 copying of the material that they have prepared. I hope that more will be added in the future. It might be worth writing them from time to time to encourage additions- they say they have 35000 items in this collection.

Out of curiosity I tried to locate the recordings by starting with www.nps.gov and attempting to find it through their index, but no luck. Have you tried to find the path to these pages that way?

They have as well a fine old Dalhart there (Get out of my way) that I was very glad to find.

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20 May 03 - 02:15 PM (#956340)
Subject: RE: Origins of: Barbara Allen, is there a story ?
From: masato sakurai

The site is updated with some new sound recordings added, and the link above is inactive. My route is as follows:

(1) The National Park Service (Home Page)

(2) Click on "Visit Your Parks", and THIS PAGE appears.

(3) Pull down the menu "--Select a Park to Visit--", and select "Edison National Historic Site." THIS PAGE appears.

(4) Click on "inDEPTH" icon, and THIS appears.

(5) Go on to "Edisonia", and then to "SOUND" (THIS IS THE PAGE). "Barbara Allen" is at "Country & Anglo-American Folk Songs."

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20 May 03 - 03:43 PM (#956406)
Subject: RE: Origins of: Barbara Allen, is there a story ?
From: greg stephens

Carlisle seems more likely than Reading, stylistically and historically, but the origins will never be known. Fun to speculate, though.
   
Not all versions agree on the cause of the rift between the pair, but bad behaviour while out on the piss with the lads turns up in a lot of cases. Let that be a lesson to us all.

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02 Mar 04 - 09:09 PM (#1128115)
Subject: RE: Origins of: Barbara Allen, is there a story ?
From: GUEST

Funnily enough, a few days ago on a TV program on the BBC (I forget what it was about except I think it was something historical, possibly to do with War), a tune which I recognised as Barbara Allen was playing in the background. I think it was the same as in the MIDI file on the Child Ballads Website. Personally though I prefer Peggy Seeger's slightly different version of the song, and can understand Samuel Pepys being moved to tears by his hearing of the song sung by a scullery maid back in the 17th century.

The last word on someone dying for love was possibly said by George Bernard Shaw. When a friend asked him if he knew of a case of someone dying for love, he replied that he had known a man who was deeply in love with a girl, and was rejected by her. His friend said "And did he die of it?" Shaw replied, "Yes, he did - fifty years later". (Probably an apocryphal story in my opinion).

I actually once met a woman called Barbara Allen (about 20 years ago). She was connected with an amateur dramatic society; as it happened I joined another group, though mercifully (as I soon realised I can't act for toffee) my career never did take off, but I did get the chance to act a non-speaking part in "Playboy of The Western World" (Note that there is no "The" in the title!) at a local theatre. The male lead (who I thought was destined for greater things) did however get a part on 1 episode of "The Bill" (a Police Drama on ITV in Britain) some years back. Oddly enough I didn't recognise him at first (though it was probably 10 or more years later) and it was only when I recognised his name on the credits that I rewound the Video tape and looked more closely.

Not that any of this will add anything to the thread, but then as someone said: "You're missing the point of Mudcat, which is to miss the point of the thread" (or something like that). Just like when someone asked for the lyrics of a song recently and none of the many posts about it even gave a line of it. That's what I call being helpful!

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03 Mar 04 - 12:46 AM (#1128231)
Subject: RE: Origins of: Barbara Allen, is there a story ?
From: Little Robyn

My Gr.gr.grandmother was named Barbara Ellen Slucock (1834-1890). I've always wondered if her parents knew the song.
Robyn

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03 Mar 04 - 01:22 AM (#1128239)
Subject: RE: Origins of: Barbara Allen, is there a story ?
From: Sorcha

Friend of mine did some serious research in a library in Virginia, US and tells me she discovered that the reason Barbara Allen rejected William was because he bought another lady a drink in a pub, but not her.....?? That is what she said, anyway....

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03 Mar 04 - 01:47 AM (#1128241)
Subject: RE: Origins of: Barbara Allen, is there a story ?
From: GUEST,Boab

Sorcha---the lady's "serious research" must have thrown up one of the verses!
'twasna this the other day
Doon in yon tavern drinkin'
Ye bade the healths gang roond an' roond,
While Barbara Allen slichtin'!

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03 Mar 04 - 03:26 AM (#1128259)
Subject: RE: Origins of: Barbara Allen, is there a story ?
From: Steve Parkes

Some versions have her explain that he'd drunk the health of all the girls but slighted BA. I first learnd it at school at the end of the 50s; we sang the Cecil Sharp version, which didn't have the slighting verse. I wonder if they were both playing hard to get, and neither expected the other to call their bluff? I have to say that he always struck me as a great wimp, and no wonder she didn't want him; and she came over as a spoiled adolescent (there's plenty of them in their 20s & 30s!) who'd turn up her nose at something when she could have it, but have a tantrum when she couldn't. I'd prefer the kinder interpretation (I usually see the best in people): what we have here is a failure to communicate.

Steve

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07 May 15 - 08:53 PM (#3707353)
Subject: RE: Origins of: Barbara Allen, is there a story ?
From: GUEST

Hi all, is there any way that I can access a digital copy of Seeger's recordings of Barbara Allen? Any direction or help would be greatly appreciated!

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08 May 15 - 03:01 AM (#3707408)
Subject: RE: Origins of: Barbara Allen, is there a story ?
From: Jim Carroll

Yes - if you can contact me
Jim Carroll

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08 May 15 - 07:05 AM (#3707458)
Subject: RE: Origins of: Barbara Allen, is there a story ?
From: GUEST,Reinhard

You can buy the track from Smithsonian Folkways.

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08 May 15 - 11:35 AM (#3707548)
Subject: RE: Origins of: Barbara Allen, is there a story ?
From: Bill D

Pete or Peggy? I have both. 2 versions of Pete's.

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08 May 15 - 11:50 AM (#3707554)
Subject: RE: Origins of: Barbara Allen, is there a story ?
From: Bill D

Note... the track from Smithsonian Folkways is Ewan & Peggy together. What I have is just solos. Where are you?

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08 May 15 - 11:54 AM (#3707555)
Subject: RE: Origins of: Barbara Allen, is there a story ?
From: Richie

Hi,

Don't forget about Mike and Charles, the latter recorded and album, Versions & Variants of the Tunes of "Barbara Allen".

Richie

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08 May 15 - 12:05 PM (#3707560)
Subject: RE: Origins of: Barbara Allen, is there a story ?
From: Reinhard

Bill, the Smithsonian album Cold Snap ist credited to Ewan and Peggy,
but they split the singing duties for the individual tracks. Barbara Allen is sung by Peggy only.

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08 May 15 - 12:31 PM (#3707575)
Subject: RE: Origins of: Barbara Allen, is there a story ?
From: Bill D

Ok... then that must be what I have. I have the MP3 individually, and also the LP. I just hadn't compared the versions.

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09 May 15 - 12:00 PM (#3707786)
Subject: Lyr Add: BARBARA ALLEN (from Caroline Hughes)
From: Jim Carroll

"Ewan & Peggy together. What I have is just solos."
Ewan and Peggy sang 3 versions between them on 'The long Harvest' - Peggy's was the one "she had known from childhood, but collated"
In his latter days, Ewan took to singing the one they recorded from the Dorset Gypsy, Caroline Hughes, slightly filled out - he was fascinated by the tune
Jim Carroll

These are the two version they got from English Travellers.

Barbry Ellen
from Caroline Hughes, Wareham, Dorset (1962)

O, in Reading Town where I was born,
There's a fair young lady dwelling;
I picked her out for to be my bride,
And her name was Barbry Ellen, Ellen,
And her name was Barbry Ellen.

Now, mother dear, you make up my bed,
You'll make it soft and easy;
That I might die for the sake of love,
And that she might die for sorrow, sorrow,
And that she might die for sorrow.

Now, mother dear, you'll look up over my head,
You'll see my gold watch standing;
There's my gold watch and my guinea gold ring,
Will you 'liver it to Barbry Ellen, Ellen?
Will you 'liver it to Barbry Ellen?

Now, mother dear, look at the side of my bed,
You'll see a bowl there standing,
It is full of tears that I've lost this night
For the loss of Barbry Ellen, Ellen,
For the loss of Barbry Ellen.

Now, as I were a-walking across the fields,
I met a corpse a-coming;
(O, you put down, my six young lambs)
(O, put him down, my six young lads?)
That I might well gaze on him, on him,
That I might well gaze on him.

While (strollily) I walked on, (strolled I, strolling there?)
I heard the (knell a-telling), (bell a-tolling?)
And as it tolled, O, it seemed to say :
'Hard-hearted Barbry Ellen, Ellen,
Hard-hearted Barbry Ellen!'





Burber Helan
From Nelson Ridley Wineham, Kent (1974)

It was in Ireland where I were borned,
I met a fair maid a-dwelling;
Young Johnny Rose, put on your clothes,
Young man, I think you're dying.

Look at the side of my bedside,
You'll find a vase a-standing;
There's a gay gold watch and a diamond ring,
That's left for Burber Helen.

O, clerky, clerky, dig me my grave,
And dig it long and narrow;
My true love died for me last night,
I'll die for her tomorrow.

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09 May 15 - 03:31 PM (#3707833)
Subject: RE: Origins of: Barbara Allen, is there a story ?
From: MGM·Lion

Wonder why the Traditional Ballad Index, cited above by Joe, calls the young man "a knight", specifically. He is in some versions, eg Sir John Graeme of the West Country; but other, non-titled, names, notably Sweet William, Young Jemmy Grove, Johnny Rose, &c &c &c, occur just as frequently in the plethora of variants of this most widespread of ballads.

≈M≈

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27 Mar 16 - 12:04 PM (#3781670)
Subject: RE: Origins of: Barbara Allen, is there a story ?
From: GUEST,ray wills

I believe that the Seegers n McColl obtained hundreds of these from Caroline Hughes Gypsy queen in the early sixties in poole dorset gypsy campsite canford heath

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27 Mar 16 - 08:02 PM (#3781777)
Subject: RE: Origins of: Barbara Allen, is there a story ?
From: GUEST,leeneia

From old ballads to modern pop songs, the idea circulates that if a man loves (lusts) a woman, but she doesn't care for him, then she's bad. Silly idea!

I quit listening to pop music a long time ago, but fairly recent versions of this are

Elvis's - Don't Be Cruel,
Beatles' - Ticket to RIde, You Won't See Me
Somebody - Delilah. He kills her. What a hero.

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Back in the 1970's, my husband was acquainted with a guy who actually did kill himself over a girl. He told her that if she didn't accept him, he would kill himself. She didn't accept him, he did kill himself, and in my opinion she had a lucky, if costly, escape.

This is probably what really happened with Barbara Allen.

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28 Mar 16 - 03:50 AM (#3781809)
Subject: RE: Origins of: Barbara Allen, is there a story ?
From: Mr Red

Didn't the Everley Brothers sing a most exquisite version. They title it Barbara Allen.
http://slager.network.hu/video/the_everly_brothers/the_everly_brothers__barbara_allen
http://www.vagalume.com.br/the-everly-brothers/barbara-allen.html
https://search.yahoo.com/search

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28 Mar 16 - 04:21 AM (#3781814)
Subject: RE: Origins of: Barbara Allen, is there a story ?
From: Jim Carroll

"This is probably what really happened with Barbara Allen."
I've never considered the idea that Barbara Allan was about suicide., for me it is the perfect ballad of the despair of unrequited love which is what has made it so popular among so many people for so long - somewhere we've all been at one time or another.
Jim Carroll

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