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19 Sep 01 - 07:44 AM (#553816) Subject: Lyr Add: WITH GOD ON OUR SIDE (Bob Dylan) From: GUEST 1. Oh my name it is nothin' My age it means less The country I come from Is called the Midwest I's taught and brought up there The laws to abide And that land that I live in Has God on its side.
2. Oh the history books tell it
3. Oh the Spanish-American
4. Oh the First World War, boys
5. When the Second World War
6. I've learned to hate the Russians
7. But now we got weapons
8. Through many a dark hour
9. So now as I'm leavin' Bob Dylan |
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19 Sep 01 - 08:28 AM (#553847) Subject: RE: Sycophantic Americans - Please Read From: kendall Your point is well taken, and, remember, many of us think for ourselves. |
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19 Sep 01 - 08:30 AM (#553848) Subject: RE: Sycophantic Americans - Please Read From: DonMeixner Yes, I agree. Bob Dylan should have used his own melody for this otherwise effective song. Beyond that your point is? And sycophantic means? Americans are largely illiterate as well as jingoistic geo political hacks whose prime interest is a world hegemony of third world servants. Don Meixner, still using my own real name |
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19 Sep 01 - 08:31 AM (#553849) Subject: RE: Sycophantic Americans - Please Read From: DonMeixner Good morning Kendall! |
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19 Sep 01 - 08:34 AM (#553850) Subject: RE: Sycophantic Americans - Please Read From: CarolC A sychophant is a suck-up toady. I'm having difficulty seeing where that term applies. |
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19 Sep 01 - 08:35 AM (#553851) Subject: RE: Sycophantic Americans - Please Read From: CarolC And I can't spell. |
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19 Sep 01 - 08:38 AM (#553852) Subject: RE: Sycophantic Americans - Please Read From: DonMeixner Then its not a plague carrying Pacheyderm as I first suspected. Don |
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19 Sep 01 - 08:45 AM (#553857) Subject: RE: Sycophantic Americans - Please Read From: InOBU Gee... Bob Dylan made his point... what's yer's guest? (he also signed his name...) US citizens also rode the freedom buses, felt real horror and questioned American wars... did lots of stuff, good and bad, like every other nation... like most we committed genocide in the process of industrialising, and that was wrong... but so did England, Germany Russia China, your lack of adding your name and voice puts me in the possition of sticking up for my fellows I ususally critized. Cheers Larry Otway, |
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19 Sep 01 - 08:58 AM (#553864) Subject: RE: Sycophantic Americans - Please Read From: RangerSteve None of us answering this thread are sycophantic, by the way, we were just curious. That goes for anyone who may answer it later. GUEST is probably just lonely. Apparently he's gone on to something else, most likely he's bothering some radio talk show host with his ramblings. |
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19 Sep 01 - 09:13 AM (#553872) Subject: RE: Sycophantic Americans - Please Read From: GUEST Sigh, Kendall at least understood what I was trying to say... Most of the rest of you seem too hung up about my being a 'GUEST' to bother to listen to a small bit of wisdom. I guess that's your problem... |
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19 Sep 01 - 09:13 AM (#553873) Subject: RE: Sycophantic Americans - Please Read From: Steve Latimer Guest, Although you tried to start an inflammatory post, your point is valid. Not because of the American aspect, but it reminds of Mr. Dylan's very valid point. I am Canadian, we've been as guilty of killing in the name of our God as anyone. My father is Irish, I don't even need to go there. This is not strictly an American thing.
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19 Sep 01 - 09:19 AM (#553879) Subject: RE: Sycophantic Americans - Please Read From: GUEST Jeez, It what sense does it need spelling out to you??? I did not try to start an inflammatory thread I merely posted some lyrics, which provide a bit of wisdom. Nothing less, nothing more
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19 Sep 01 - 09:27 AM (#553882) Subject: RE: Sycophantic Americans - Please Read From: MMario the combination of title and unexplained posting appears inflammatory. Perhaps you need to modify your posting style as obviously those of us reading your posts are unable to come to any type of understanding of your current style - which to many appears to be deliberate attempts to raise controversy and ill feeling. Communication is a two way street - and your attempts repeatedly fail. Not all the error is on the side of the reader. |
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19 Sep 01 - 09:32 AM (#553890) Subject: RE: Sycophantic Americans - Please Read From: GUEST,Don Meixner, At Work It wasn't the post, it was the title. I resent being accussed of anything just because I am an American . Perhaps a title like For Americans who happen to be Sycophants. Some are and some aren't. And we all need to be reminded now and then of a point well made be it by Bob Dylan or Ben Franklin or Lao Tsu. Make your point but don't start off picking a fight and expecting anything less. The point is lost and all anyone sees is another Guest being a jerk. Don Meixner |
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19 Sep 01 - 09:36 AM (#553896) Subject: RE: Sycophantic Americans - Please Read From: GUEST My point remains the same, I'll try to expess it better in future Thank you for your advice |
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19 Sep 01 - 09:38 AM (#553898) Subject: RE: Sycophantic Americans - Please Read From: InOBU You didn't Bob did. Larry |
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19 Sep 01 - 09:41 AM (#553900) Subject: RE: Sycophantic Americans - Please Read From: Cllr "Sycophantic" is always used as a perjorative term therefore you have entitled this thread with an insult. Guest; you are a troll or an idiot because either the point you are trying to make by use of a song is lost because of your title OR you are using the song to disguise your trolling. Either way you are the weakest link goobye Cllr |
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19 Sep 01 - 09:42 AM (#553903) Subject: RE: Sycophantic Americans - Please Read From: GUEST,Mr. Real World Good song. Unfortunately, it pretty much applies to the human race. |
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19 Sep 01 - 09:46 AM (#553906) Subject: RE: Sycophantic Americans - Please Read From: Steve Latimer I apologize if over reacted to the thread title, however I can't see sycophantic as anything but derogatory. As the father of two children, Mr. Dylan conveyed my current feelings in song. Lord Protect My Child, Bob Dylan For his age, he's wise He's got his mother's eyes There's gladness in his heart He's young and he's wild My only prayer is, if I can't be there, Lord, protect my child As his youth now unfolds He is centuries old Just to see him at play makes me smile No matter what happens to me No matter what my destiny Lord, protect my child While the world is asleep You can look at it and weep Few things you find are worthwhile And though I don't ask for much No material things to touch Lord, protect my child He's young and on fire Full of hope and desire In a world that's been raped, raped and defiled If I fall along the way And can't see another day Lord, protect my child There'll be a time I hear tell When all will be well When God and man will be reconciled But until men lose their chains And righteousness reigns Lord, protect my child |
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19 Sep 01 - 10:29 AM (#553933) Subject: RE: Sycophantic Americans - Please Read From: Donuel Sucking up to the fervent wave of patriotism is the safe thing to do in America now. To express any doubts is to bring the wrath of being ostracised as a traitor upon ones self. There is a fundamentalist certainty that seeing both sides to the conflict is EVIL. There is only one side , our side. There is only one demand of the terrorists that the American people are told en masse. The demand to destroy freedom and all Americans. Even if Americans are told of the demand to remove the military base in Saudi Arabia it will not threaten our patriotism. Even if told of the $38,000,000,000 debt relief Pakistan wants in return for their "cooperation and [perhaps] an end to the terrorist attacks", Bush knows best. Even if we are told of the 500,000 infant - teenage fatalities in Iraq as a result of the Gulf War and sanctions , it will not deter America's patriotism. Even if we understand that the missle attack on Sudan without any warning despite being a nation in which we are on diplomatic terms it makes no difference. Even if our policy of CIA destabiliztion of governments and installation of puppet shahs, generals or "kings" is understood, patriotism will be unaffected. Even if we are told that an explicit warning was given 3 months prior to the attack that at least allowed investors to sell short first, patriotism will not be deterred. Suspension of civil liberties is to be expected in times of declared war against ...25 countries. It is tantamount to sabotage to elucidate the role that the Bush's have had in creating foreign military "mad men" and then feel the need to show them who is boss once they feel "sovereign". It is treasonous to suggest that the Bush team would sabotage alternative energy and increase our reliance on oil and the middle east. It is rude to challenge the legitimately of the elected heir apparent and new Prince of Power George W Bush. It is only a coincidence that the same 6 faces of the Gulf war are in power again. Our great communicator needs his handlers to explain and change the meaning of his words to the world and America but he is now reported as being a wonderful speaker. No there will be no threat to American patriotism. Neither facts ,wisdom or compassion will erase the outrage of becoming innocent victims in the attack of our homeland. America is not naieve, our appointed leaders and cable TV tells us exactly what to think (with few exceptions such as Frontline PBS). The growing mantra here is "you don't need to know" . Everything will be handled on a need to know basis. No journalists , no traitorous dissent , no questions. Suck it up , bite the bullet , fall on the grenade. Now is the time for true grit. "Were gonna trackem down,smokem out and bringem to justice dead or alive." Its time to shut up and follow the party line , after all this is why we fought communism. America is a great nation , why else would everyone want to live here ? America is also the great prize for those who wish to rule her.
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19 Sep 01 - 10:46 AM (#553956) Subject: RE: Sycophantic Americans - Please Read From: GUEST,Someone if off their meds My, my. So it is our fault that a few extremists are pissed off about U.S. bases in Saudi Arabia, which incidentally protected that nation's sovereignty during Desert Storm. Likewise, we are the bad guys for levelling sanctions against Iraq and punishing them for not following the terms of their surrender. And evidently, the fact that we are supporting a government that has thus far kept its cool and is working thru diplomacy represents blind fanaticism. I would really love to hear your treatise on the role of the U.S. in World War Two. I'll bet its real socko stuff. |
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19 Sep 01 - 10:49 AM (#553959) Subject: RE: Sycophantic Americans - Please Read From: Troll And whose party line are YOU following. Seems I've heard the " These are all the bad things we've done. Aren't we horrible." bit before. I just can't remember which group of America-haters it was that were vommiting their bile on that ocassion. Perhaps you will enlighten us. troll |
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19 Sep 01 - 10:57 AM (#553965) Subject: RE: Sycophantic Americans - Please Read From: CarolC Ok. Now I think I understand the use of the word 'sycophantic' in this context. |
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19 Sep 01 - 10:59 AM (#553968) Subject: RE: Sycophantic Americans - Please Read From: GUEST,Captain America So true. People who spout off like that are generally simply regurgitating some particular line fed to them by the organization of the week. |
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19 Sep 01 - 11:16 AM (#553977) Subject: RE: Sycophantic Americans - Please Read From: Wincing Devil At the end of the Declaration of Independence it states: ...we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our fortunes, and our sacred Honor. Below that last lines are NAMES not handles, aliases or monikers. If you have something to say, stand behind it! Vince Wilding
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19 Sep 01 - 11:16 AM (#553978) Subject: RE: Sycophantic Americans - Please Read From: LR Mole Note: just spoke to god. She wouldn't say whose side she was on. Didn't appear to understand the question. |
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19 Sep 01 - 11:29 AM (#553985) Subject: RE: Sycophantic Americans - Please Read From: Donuel "There is a fundamentalist certainty that seeing both sides to the conflict is EVIL. There is only one side , our side" Now look at your responses. See what I mean? Thank goodness the great diplomatic and strategic minds in our country will decide upon our [three pronged*] response behind closed doors. 1 The heart: The help of moderate Islamic cleriks are essential in exposing terrorism as the ultimate enemy of Islam to the rest of the 1,000,000,000 muslims. 2 The mind: A world wide coalition of criminal prosecutors need to treat this as a police matter to eliminate the terrorist 'individuals' - not governments or nations. 3 The hand: The military is needed in enforcing the international indictments that will be handed down. |
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19 Sep 01 - 11:56 AM (#554003) Subject: RE: Sycophantic Americans - Please Read From: Steve Latimer Donuel, Well said. Hopefully it will go that way.
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19 Sep 01 - 12:23 PM (#554030) Subject: RE: Sycophantic Americans - Please Read From: Troll I, for one, have NEVER said that the US was not wrong on ocassion. My country has made some foolish and, on ocassion, deadly errors in judgement. It happens. Live with it. Now lets look at a few points: 1) The most important terrorist goal -as stated by bin Laden- is the death of ALL Americans. He has other demands but they pale into insignificance beside this one. 2) The Saudi government invited the us to set up the base there to help protect Saudi interests from Saddam. Bin Ladens gripe there is with the Saudis, not the US. 3) Saddam Hussein agreed to the sanctions when he surrendered. The sanctions were to stay in place until such time as it could be verified that he had ceased to manufacture weapons of mass destruction. He has refused to allow that verification. We gave our word that the sanctions would stay in place until the conditions of surrender were carried out. We are keeping our word. Iraq is allowed to sell a certain amount of oil so that humanitarian supplies may be purchased -food medicine etc.- but this is not being done. The Iraqui government is using the money to build up their army; we are even told that they may have nuclear devices. In the meantime, their people starve while the money for their food goes to rebuild Saddams army. 4) It is the job of intelligence to de-stabilize inimical foreign governments when that suits our purposes and the same is true of the intelligence service of any government. 5)IF an explicit warning >I?was given three months prior to the atrocity, then heads should roll. Publicly. 6)"It is tantamount to sabotage to elucidate the role that the Bush's have had in creating foreign military "mad men" and then feel the need to show them who is boss once they feel "sovereign"." This has been pointed in many of the news media, and, so far as I know, no news editors have been executed to date. (One can always hope...) 7)"It is treasonous to suggest that the Bush team would sabotage alternative energy and increase our reliance on oil and the middle east." See # 6 I see no need to address your other points since they are not of an objective nature. I think I agree with your heart, mind and hand post BTW. troll
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19 Sep 01 - 12:28 PM (#554036) Subject: RE: Sycophantic Americans - Please Read From: Don Firth Donuel, your three points are exactly right. Other than that, why don't you take a couple of aspirin and lay down for awhile? Don Firth |
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19 Sep 01 - 01:00 PM (#554066) Subject: RE: Sycophantic Americans - Please Read From: Jeri Just a thought here, but this may be a classic example of how flame wars get started, and it wasn't GUEST who started it! ("you didn't say, and I didn't feel like asking, but what you REALLY meant was...") It's my opinion that the post was from a GUEST and had some bit of non-clarity that folks could read evil intentions into. Looking for monsters under that bed... The Dylan song certainly does speak to sychophantic Americans - those who pick up a flag, follow the band and shout "kill, kill, kill." Why on earth did anyone jump to the conclusion GUEST was referring to anyone here? Expecially if you agree with the thoughts in the song? The USA seems fated to at least appear to join together to bash our enemy, whoever George W says that is, into dust - never mind considering the possibility that innocents will also get bashed, we'll just kill 'em all. Seems like a small-scale version of the same mob mentality can happen here. Sorry for the rant, but it seems like we have enough enemies and strife without creating more... |
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19 Sep 01 - 01:46 PM (#554110) Subject: RE: Sycophantic Americans - Please Read From: GUEST,Celtic Soul As someone who chooses to post semi-anonymously (a handle but no name), I have made it a point to never post flame-bait, and on those occasions when misunderstandings do occur, I try to always take responsibility. Why? Because if I am not going to sign my real name to it, I feel it is my responsibility to try hard to keep from adding to negativity (is that enough "to's", do ya think? ;D ) In that line of thinking, when someone chooses to use a word that is fairly widely thought of as being derogatory (sycophantic), then one is *beginning* their post by putting others on the defensive. What I would suggest is that becoming defensive in return is not the way to smooth feathers or to have your point be heard. A simple apology and explanation of your intents without any caviates about how others have defensively responded will win others more quickly to your premise.
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19 Sep 01 - 02:52 PM (#554170) Subject: RE: Sycophantic Americans - Please Read From: Greg F. Jesus, Troll, Live with it?? How would you react to someone posting "Hey, U.S.! Terrorism is a fact of life all over the globe! Terrorist attacks happen. Stop whining and Live With It! |
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19 Sep 01 - 03:51 PM (#554229) Subject: RE: Sycophantic Americans - Please Read From: Troll Yes Greg. Live with it. Live with the sure knowledge that the country I love makes mistakes. Live with the fact that , regardless of what we do, someone,somewhere, will disagree. Live with the fact that, no matter how hard we try, there will be errors in judgement. It would be nice if we were perfect like ( [___________]insert name of perfect country of your choice) but we are not perfect. Live with it. troll |
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19 Sep 01 - 04:03 PM (#554248) Subject: RE: Sycophantic Americans - Please Read From: Troll BTW, living with it does not mean blind acceptance of these mistakes. We should NOT accept them as the normal way of doing business. Neither should we beat ourselves to pieces over them. Rather, we should study our mistakes and try not to repeat them. I get very tired of the "Oh, We're so horrible. I'm so ashamed" crowd; all the public breast-beating; who are they trying to convince? And of what? troll |
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19 Sep 01 - 04:16 PM (#554265) Subject: RE: Sycophantic Americans - Please Read From: DougR Jeri: I'm still searching for Star Trek on the TV! DougR |
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19 Sep 01 - 04:28 PM (#554273) Subject: RE: Sycophantic Americans - Please Read From: GUEST,Captain America As per the question above. When you are on the top, those below you may try to drag you down. The U.S. has been thrust into a position of world leadership over the last hundred years. We have had to bail people out of wars, help clean up the mess left by 500 years of European colonialism, win the Cold War, and play policeman for a human race that is like a bunch of squabbling children. Any entity with such vast responsibility is inevitably going to make mistakes or do things that most others (without the same amount or degree of responsibility) don't agree with. Under such circumstances, some of those who can't/won't run with the big dog are going to seek self-satisfaction by staying on the porch and yelping at him. As for some similar behavior by Americans, it may be a matter of being negative because that is in vogue. I read one newspaper article about a man who is essentially a professional protester of everything American. As soon as the bombing started, he started making signs but leaving them blank. The reason is that he did not know what the U.S. was going to do, but he planned to protest it no matter what it is. |
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19 Sep 01 - 04:46 PM (#554282) Subject: RE: Sycophantic Americans - Please Read From: sophocleese Captain America, its a lovely myth. However, the US has not been thrust into leadership, it did everything it could to undermine the leadership of the Soviet Union and some other countries so it could be economic top dog. It wields its force with favouritism and often blind partiality. Any responsibilties to the rest of the world run a very poor second to the primary consideration of getting what America wants. Don't fool yourself that American policy is any different now then it would have been when Machiavelli was writing "The Prince" about 400 years ago. One thing that I have learned on Mudcat is that Americans can be wonderful people but that a lot of them are incredibly ignorant of what happens outside their borders. Its nice to believe that Americans are a force for good but don't blame the victims of your government agencies for not agreeing with you. To accuse them of trying to drag you down is like blaming the kids because their daddy hits them. |
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19 Sep 01 - 05:00 PM (#554291) Subject: RE: Sycophantic Americans - Please Read From: GUEST,Captain America The Soviet Union slaughtered twenty million of its own people and wreaked havoc all over the world. So you can bet your ass that we sought to undermine its leadership. The fact that you see U.S. opposition to the Soviet Union as a flaw is so incomprehensively ignorant that I won't waste my time shooting down your other points. That would be problematic anyway because you made no other identifiable points and simply spouted the same generic U.S. is a bad guy stereotypes that is fed to the Wannabe Socialists at their first meeting. I suppose that you are also critical to the horrible undermining of Nazi Germany by the U.S. |
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19 Sep 01 - 05:06 PM (#554292) Subject: RE: Sycophantic Americans - Please Read From: CarolC When you are on the top, those below you may try to drag you down.
--Captain America
*grin* Alternatively, when you are on the top, those upon whom you are standing may try to get out from underneath of you. |
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19 Sep 01 - 05:15 PM (#554297) Subject: RE: Sycophantic Americans - Please Read From: GUEST,Captain America Yes, it is a contradiction considering that those are often the very people who were so anxious to lift you onto their shoulders to begin with. Zing...... |
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19 Sep 01 - 05:18 PM (#554298) Subject: RE: Sycophantic Americans - Please Read From: CarolC Captain America, I think you are making this stuff up as you go along. Which people were those who wanted us to be standing on them? |
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19 Sep 01 - 05:24 PM (#554307) Subject: RE: Sycophantic Americans - Please Read From: GUEST,Captain America Apparently you have somewhat of a struggle with the concept of metaphors, so I will expand my comments. The same people who look to the U.S. for support in myriad ways (i.e. lifting us to a position of leadership, get it?) often become highly critical when we are not able to perform in a perfect manner. Well, nobody is perfect, but at least we are trying and other people consistently ask us to try.... |
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19 Sep 01 - 05:28 PM (#554309) Subject: RE: Sycophantic Americans - Please Read From: CarolC I don't think personal attacks are necessary, Captain. There are people who look to us as leaders, and there are others who look upon us as oppressors. These are not necessarily the same people in both instances. |
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19 Sep 01 - 06:03 PM (#554346) Subject: RE: Sycophantic Americans - Please Read From: Jack the Sailor The Soviet Union is gone. The present leadership did not slaughter 20 million people. Hitler is long gone. What happened to the Native Americans was deplorable. But that was in the past. What matters is what we do now. The USA has always been If you somehow believe that capture of bin Laden justifies the starvation and bombing of tens of thousands of people who are presently victims or virtual hostages of bin Laden and the Taliban. Then support your government in doing so and get ready for the third world war. |
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19 Sep 01 - 06:04 PM (#554348) Subject: RE: Sycophantic Americans - Please Read From: Jack the Sailor Please delete the above. posted in anger. |
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19 Sep 01 - 07:20 PM (#554401) Subject: RE: Sycophantic Americans - Please Read From: kendall Oh, when will they ever learn, when will they ever learn. The fact is, we can and will hit back, then, they will do the same and it will go on until we deal with the problem instead of the symptoms. Anyone who thinks we can wipe out terrorism with military might is living in a fools paradise. (And, they probably failed history) |
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19 Sep 01 - 08:12 PM (#554446) Subject: RE: Sycophantic Americans - Please Read From: X-Ed There has been this boxer analogy: wearing down the opponent round to round. I submit that the ultimate aim is to knock the opponent out so they can't come back. The longer you go toe-to-toe, the greater your chance of being knocked out yourself. People ultimately tolerate their government, therefore they are responsible for the actions of their government. If they are dissatisfied they will topple it. They could always ask for help, rather than wait for clergy to decide for them. Does GUEST even know what sycophantic means? |