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03 Oct 01 - 07:54 PM (#564558) Subject: 'English Pitch?' From: curmudgeon A friend just located a used concertina and was told that it was tuned to "English" pitch. Does anyone out there have any idea how this mught relate to A440? Thanks - Tom |
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03 Oct 01 - 07:59 PM (#564562) Subject: RE: Help: 'English Pitch?' From: Bert I thought that an English pitch was 22 yards:-) |
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03 Oct 01 - 08:09 PM (#564569) Subject: RE: Help: 'English Pitch?' From: BillR Well, I'm not a concertina player, but it's my understanding that the designation "english" (vs "anglo") refer to how the notes are arranged on the buttons not to the pitch of the notes. - Bill |
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03 Oct 01 - 08:13 PM (#564573) Subject: RE: Help: 'English Pitch?' From: Murray MacLeod Yeah, Bill has hit it on the head. One plays the same note on the push and pull and the other plays a different note on the push from the pull. Can never remember which is which, though. Murray |
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03 Oct 01 - 08:16 PM (#564576) Subject: RE: Help: 'English Pitch?' From: McGrath of Harlow English system concertinas you get the same note on a button pushing or pulling. Anglo system it's a different note, like playing a harmonica. And other differences.
But the notes are supposed to be the same actual notes as with other instruments. |
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03 Oct 01 - 08:17 PM (#564578) Subject: RE: Help: 'English Pitch?' From: McGrath of Harlow And the English system concertinas cost a good bit more than the Anglos. |
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03 Oct 01 - 08:18 PM (#564580) Subject: RE: Help: 'English Pitch?' From: Bert I have heard that some concertinas are tuned to Salvation Army pitch which is higher than normal. |
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03 Oct 01 - 08:21 PM (#564582) Subject: 'English Pitch?' From: Clinton Hammond Anybody that can pitch a concertina 22 yards makes it tops in my book! Especially if they can knock out a bag piper at the end of that toss and send him headlong into a clot of Morris dancers! English or not, I'll buy that man drinks all night! ,-) |
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03 Oct 01 - 08:22 PM (#564583) Subject: RE: Help: 'English Pitch?' From: curmudgeon This particular concertina is an English system and was probably made in the '20s. Thanks for all the help thus far. It I don't get an answer on Mudcat, then I will assume that I have vainly sought after an unsolvable mystery -- Tom |
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03 Oct 01 - 09:14 PM (#564615) Subject: RE: Help: 'English Pitch?' From: Jeri I looked on the web and found a reference to measurements of timing belts, as in "English or metric pitch." I don't think concertinas have timing belts, though. If your friend can actually be in the same place as the concertina, he/she could possibly bring an electonic tuner along and check. |
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03 Oct 01 - 09:30 PM (#564621) Subject: RE: Help: 'English Pitch?' From: Murray MacLeod Clinton, you are confusing the concertina with the accordion. I can guarantee that if you ever have the chance to hear Alistair Anderson playing the concertina, you will be down on your knees, begging to hear more. Murray |
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03 Oct 01 - 11:20 PM (#564677) Subject: RE: Help: 'English Pitch?' From: Bob Bolton G'day curmudgeon,
I have Aat home) a c. 1930 Wheatstone catalogue which offers five different pitches for their concertinas. Offhand, I think it is something like: The first 4 are different regional standards and the last, only for their cheapest instruments, meant it was in tune with itself, but not accrately pitched to any standard. I believe the old British Philharmonic had A = 454 Hz, something like a quarter tone sharp of modern pitch. It is common to find old concertinas still in "old high pitch". Retuning, by a competent concertina repairer, can be a bit tricky, because a small amount of material needs to be removed from the lower body of the reed to bring its pitch down ... and this can also lead to a loss of 'brilliance' or 'voicing' characteristics. Regards, Bob Bolton
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04 Oct 01 - 01:05 AM (#564718) Subject: RE: Help: 'English Pitch?' From: Bert I have seen a tad of solder added to a reed to lower the tone. |
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04 Oct 01 - 02:29 AM (#564747) Subject: RE: Help: 'English Pitch?' From: Bob Bolton G'day bert, A small particle of solder can be effective ... but the distribution of mass about the reed is altered and the 'voicing' ... basically the mixture of harmonics behind the fundamental note ... will alter. Generally, going the 'dab of solder' route takes some of the edge off the instrumment. If you have one of those 'screamers' voiced for the Salvation Army to play outdoors, this might be a good thing. A lot of old concertinas go downhill with retuning. The best concertinas I have owned were ones where I handed over a bundle of brass reeds to a maker/tuner and he made brand new steel reeds, keeping to very tight dimensions and consistent voicing. This also produces very tough reeds, with none of the weak points that can result, even from careful retuning, when a fairly large shift is required. Regards, Bob Bolton |
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04 Oct 01 - 03:49 AM (#564773) Subject: RE: Help: 'English Pitch?' From: GUEST,jockmorris Bob Bolton is correct in all he says about tuning the reeds down. Most of the unwanted effects of retuning a reed can be cured if you fiddle around with them long enough, but unless you're capable of doing this yourself then the time involved will be costly. As a novice at the re-tuning game it took me about 16 hours work to retune a 48 button english from A=456 to A=440; plus a couple of hours since to fine fettle a few of the reeds. Scott |
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04 Oct 01 - 04:30 AM (#564779) Subject: RE: Help: 'English Pitch?' From: IanC Bert Some Salvation Army instruments were pitched about half a semitone up for 2 reasons (1) It makes them sound brighter (2) It's easier to play with brass instrumentw which are usually tuned in Eb/Bb (means you can play D/A) I've come across an English concertina which was tuned in this way.
:-) |
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04 Oct 01 - 05:05 AM (#564797) Subject: RE: Help: 'English Pitch?' From: GUEST,Jane Bird You could also try asking this question on the forum of Concertina.net Yours, Jane |
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04 Oct 01 - 07:08 AM (#564839) Subject: RE: Help: 'English Pitch?' From: Bob Bolton G'day IanC, You'll find that A = 454 Hz is just over a quarter tone (or half a semitone) sharp of modern A = 440 Hz pitch. This is old British Philharmonic pitch ... and I suspect a great number of Sally bands had a lot of "Old Pitch" brass instruments. Since they only played together, there was no pressing need to buy new instruments in modern pitch and some of the old pitch bands persisted into the 1960s (and, probably, beyond). Incidentally, I reckon that every Indian flute and whistle I have ever had is in "old pitch"! Regards, Bob Bolton |
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04 Oct 01 - 09:12 AM (#564897) Subject: RE: Help: 'English Pitch?' From: Rana@work Was going to mention concertina.net but Jane beat me to it. Now at work I can provide the link (not in the link section from what I can see). My interest in this is that I have an old Lachenal English concertina anfd one day I will get around to learning to play it - especially when my knees give out doing Morris. Need to somehow get over the potential barrier that is stopping me from starting - scales and such like, I don't play any other instruments. It was my brother's 2nd concertina (he onto his 3rd) and was bought to replace his first which was not "concert pitch". I take it that this may mean that his first was an ex-Sally army model. Cheers Rana |
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05 Oct 01 - 02:28 AM (#565487) Subject: RE: Help: 'English Pitch?' From: JohnInKansas An interesting note on "standard pitch" may be found in the "translators notes" to the Dover edition of On the Sensation of Tone by Hermann Helmholtz. (ISBN 0-486-60753-4, 1954). A survey of numerous organs, and of tuning forks used by various musical and standards organizations, is tabulated in about 17 pages of fine print. The frequency of the "a above middle C" (or a') from each source is given, along with details of who made each measurement. For organs, in particular, a date of manufacture of the pipes tested is generally given, allowing an easy look at how "standard pitch" may have progressed over a number of years. (Several additional pages give a reasoned analysis of the data.) Instruments tested were produced as far back as 1361, and on through about 1880. (The original book was first published in 1885.) The measured a' notes range from a low of 370 Hz through about 567.3. The lists are sorted roughly in order of increasing frequency, and are divided into rough descriptive categories. Section 6 in the tabulation gives "Modern Orchestral Pitch ..." and shows values from 437 through 460.8. A separate category for tuning forks intended to "accurately produce a' at 440 Hz" shows measured frequencies from 422.5 thru 441.3. "Handel's own fork" dated to 1751 tested at 422.5 Hz. "Dr. Stainer's" dated to ca. 1800 showed a' at 424.6 Hz (tune your old fiddles down?) "Steinway's standard," ca 1880, was at 458.0 Hz. Numerous "standards" have been proposed over the past few centuries, and traditional lore has it that instruments of certain periods and from particular regions may be assumed to adhere to some particular standard. The fact appears to be that, at least until electronic measurement became easy and accurate, adherence to any particular standard was more in the nature of intent than of accomplishment. My own heresy would be to suggest that, since a free reed instrument cannot produce "linear" harmonics, the ability of the listener to "home in" on a specific pitch is extremely limited. To persons accustomed to linear instruments like pipes, strings, etc, a free reed instrument always sounds a little out of tune. We accept that as normal for the instrument. If it is actually a little out of tune, what does it matter? John |
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05 Oct 01 - 04:17 AM (#565514) Subject: RE: Help: 'English Pitch?' From: GUEST,Jock Morris @ work in Edinburgh My own experience would suggest that if a free reed instrument is within 0.2 of a semitone of modern concert pitch then you can play with other instruments without it sounding out of tune. The typical old tuning of A=456Hz being 0.5 of a semitone sharp of modern concert is too far out for the comfort of the listeners. A multi-voice melodeon will typically have the two (or more) reeds tuned about 0.1 to 0.2 apart. Scott |
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05 Oct 01 - 05:05 AM (#565533) Subject: RE: Help: 'English Pitch?' From: alanww Rana I too have an Lachenal English concertina, a 56 button Excelcior circa 1875 with a beautiful tone. All I would say is don't wait until your knees start to give out morris dancing - maybe they never will! I dance too but I started to learn to play about 11 months ago - completely from scratch, with little help and never before having been able to read music. But I do practice virtually every day. Of course, it is frustrating at first! I initially started with the Frank Butler tutor book but I found it too boring - so I started to learn a few tunes which I knew from the dots and I can now play unaided some 30 tunes (not always perfectly though) and am in various stages of learning some 50 others. Although I still have a long way to go, particularly in terms of playing with other people, it is such a joy! Start NOW ! "Oh Shanendoah, I long to hear you ...!" |
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05 Oct 01 - 09:38 AM (#565613) Subject: RE: Help: 'English Pitch?' From: Rana@work Thanks for the encouragement, Alan. I will (I am being bugged to do so my fellow morris dancers). I've seen the Butler book, and I've got the Carlin book - both do seem boring. Fortunately I do have the Alistair Anderson tutor and that is supposed to be good. Rana |
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05 Oct 01 - 12:56 PM (#565742) Subject: RE: Help: 'English Pitch?' From: GUEST,JohnB Rana, you also have quite a few people to mentor you. At least yours plays, my old Lachenal Anglo, needs a hell of a lot of work to get to that point. My knees aren't getting any younger either, maybee it's time to get to work on it. JohnB |
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05 Oct 01 - 01:19 PM (#565752) Subject: RE: Help: 'English Pitch?' From: Ringer Isn't there also a "Duet" system along with Englist & Anglo. |
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05 Oct 01 - 02:05 PM (#565781) Subject: RE: Help: 'English Pitch?' From: Tyke Consider this I once was watching an English television program several years ago. They brought on several people one had perfect pitch now this person was not born with perfect pitch. Apparently perfect pitch is a thing that you learn from an early age. The other two people did not have perfect pitch having learned there pitch from something that was tuned respectively sharp or flat. Well and this is where I get a bit confused memory wise they placed the person who sang a note flat in a bath of warm water (it could have been cold water) and they then sang the note in perfect pitch. The person who had perfect pitch placed in a bath of hot water sang his previously perfect pitched note sharp in the bath of cold water he sang the note flat (as I say it could have been the other way round it was a long time ago). My conclusion is that if you place a tuning fork on a radiator the heat will alter its pitch if the tuning fork or instrument is cold it will affect its pitch. As a performer if you become too hot or cold said temperature would affect your ability to pitch perfectly a note. Ever been nervous and starting to sweat then become more nervous because you can't tune your guitar on stage? So use a good quality electronic tuner and tune your instrument at the room temperature. A good quality tuner will have the ability to calibrate its self with your Concertina so those more easily tuned instruments can tune to you. As for the Salvation Army tuning there instruments sharp I know not but if they did or do could it be something to do with the fact that in England especially round Christmas when the weather here is cold. The Salvation Army Bands still perform outside in our Towns and Villages in the cold. Most of these conclusions are my own and I could be wrong but it makes sense to me! Or am I barking up the wrong tree as they say? |
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06 Oct 01 - 03:44 AM (#566139) Subject: RE: Help: 'English Pitch?' From: Bob Bolton G'day Bald Eagle, "... Isn't there also a "Duet" system ..." Well, not exactlty ... there are about six - all unique tuning systems, with no relation to each other - or any other instrument! The first was a Wheatstone Duet System - these have 6 vertical rows of keys ... and expansion on Wheatstone's English system's 4 vertical rows. Then McCann, a manager at the Wheatstone works shuffled the notes to suit himself and, as he was a good player ... everyone wanted their duet tuned like his! (Looks identical) Then a designer named Butterworth came up with a very pretty system based on 5 vertical rows. A bloke named Crane introduced it to the Sally Army ... and they started making, or branding their own ... with the Sally brand "Triumph". The Jeffries family did a strange duet based on spreading the push-pull 'C' row of their Anglo out to 2 rows, now both note each way ... then put semitones in 2 rows outside them. These look like 4-row anglos (and are a rare as hens' teeth). A bloke named Linton designed his own - 6 vertical rows each hand, but each row is one note of the chromatic scale ascending in octaves. He could play marvellously ... his family were dragooned and accompanied well ... on attaining majority, most of them moved to the other side of the world (mostly Tasmania!). (Brian?) Hayden has designed a chromatic duet system that works rather like the Continental Chromatic (or 'Chromatica' model) button accordion (or the "free bass" rows on a super-duper piano accordion model with 180 odd basses). I'm not sure of the arrangement ... a little more vertical than the 'Chromatica', I believe. So take your pick - the best buy would be a McCann Duet, as these are not so popular (spelled 'astronomically priced) and are currently the 'sleeper' of the duet stakes. Fortunately, none of it is my tradition, so I can stick to Anglo (one of the things I bought with the proceeds of selling my 56-key McCann Duet, back in the '70s). Regards, Bob Bolton |
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08 Oct 01 - 05:00 AM (#567289) Subject: RE: Help: 'English Pitch?' From: GUEST |
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08 Oct 01 - 05:58 AM (#567314) Subject: RE: Help: 'English Pitch?' From: GUEST,Richard Evans Dear Mudcatters, On the subject of English pitch. I would like to say that this covers a multitude of pitches from the middle ages to the time when British Philharmonic pitch came into being in 1900! British Philharmonic was actually A=439 not 440, as it was arrived at independantly of modern capabilities to count down from a silicon chip. A= 440 is used today as it is easy to generate from a vibrating crystal hence all those Korg etc. tuners! At the time the British decided on their Philharmonic pitch the French also decided to institute their own International pitch ( they were into decreeing measurements in general after their metric system which based the meter on the distance around the circumference of the earth, (they in fact got it wrong!)The French decided to base their pitch on the length of cathedral organ pipes at a certain temperature ( which was about 60 deg. Fahrenheit). The English were not invited to the conference that decided the issue so they went ahead independantly to formulate their own pitch, based on the length of organ pipes but at a higher temperature ( 68 deg. F or 20 deg. Celsius [ or Centigrade]). This meant that around 1900 there were two pitches, one the English at 439 and would you believe it the French which was 440! Now these pitches were so close to one another that for all intents and purposes they were identical. In 1938 the English moved to A 440 and thereafter most instruments were made in modern concert pitch. However this left all the English Brass Bands still in "Kneller Hall pitch" which is the name of the British military academy of music. This pitch was 40 cents or so sharp of modern A 440 pitch and is very common to concertinas made for the Salvation Army up until the finish of mass concertina production in the mid 1930's. Many brass bands (at least in Australia) did not change their instruments until the 1960's due to the cost of new instruments! In the 19th. century as well as the pitch varying widely in England, the temperament also varied and many concertinas (especially English concertinas) were tuned in 1/4 comma mean tone temperament, which meant that the enharmonic notes were actually different pitches i.e. an Eb was not the same as a D sharp. This means that certain "home" keys were more in tune than keys which strayed away from home keys by too many flats or sharps! Complicated isn't it? Enough to say that the term "English pitch" is not definitive and can apply to a good number of pitches from various piano makers such as Broadwood and to pitches which were changed as often as the mood took various other experts! The most common "sharp" pitch for concertinas is Kneller Hall, though earlier concertinas in 1/4 comma may vary as the mood took the tuner, some up to 55 cents sharp! I submit this information as a person who has retuned hundreds of concertinas over a 25 year period and has done a goodly amount of research on tuning in general during this time. |
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08 Oct 01 - 06:32 AM (#567325) Subject: RE: Help: 'English Pitch?' From: Ralphie So..... If I read you right.. It's all the fault of the French...Mmmmm Typical ! Thanks, Richard, for that. Regards Ralphie |
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08 Oct 01 - 07:22 AM (#567335) Subject: RE: Help: 'English Pitch?' From: alanww Fascinating history of the development of pitch. Yes, French nationalism rules again! Alan |
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08 Oct 01 - 10:36 AM (#567393) Subject: RE: Help: 'English Pitch?' From: Bernard Re-tuning a concertina from 'high pitch' down to 'concert pitch' need not adversely affect the voicing of the reeds if done correctly. Using a suitable needle file, scratches are made along the reed, not across, near to the fixing of the reed to the reedplate, being careful not to stray too close to the edge. This also avoids metal-fatigue problems. I've been tuning concertinas, melodeons and accordions for many years - you only get real problems if re-tuning a reed by more than a semitone. The problem most people overlook is the amount by which the reed is lifted away from the plate at its tip - this drastically affects the time taken for the reed to 'speak'. If the reed is parallel to the reedplate, it won't speak at all, or will be very 'lazy'; if lifted too high, the same applies... only experience can find the right balance. |
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08 Oct 01 - 10:42 AM (#567397) Subject: RE: Help: 'English Pitch?' From: Bernard I forgot to mention - my own Lachenal Edeophone was in high pitch when I bought it; so was Bernard Wrigley's infamous Wheatstone Bass concertina. I re-tuned them both without any problems. The interesting thing about the bass is that it only plays on the 'push', and there are valves let into the bellows to draw air on the 'pull'... |
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09 Oct 01 - 05:10 AM (#568033) Subject: RE: Help: 'English Pitch?' From: Bob Bolton G'day Bernard, If you read my posting carefully you'll see that I wrote " ... A small particle of solder can be effective ... but the distribution of mass ... will alter." I didn't say that it can't be retuned by careful filework. However, I did say, later: "A lot of old concertinas go downhill with retuning" and I stick by this - particularly when they have already been tuned by others. There is only so much scope for taking away more metal before the reed is better served by renewing it. Regards, Bob Bolton |
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09 Oct 01 - 07:32 PM (#568569) Subject: RE: Help: 'English Pitch?' From: Bernard Calm down, Bob! I didn't intend to suggest anyone was wrong! I was just offering a different point of view! Any instrument that has been abused - either by being played too hard (particularly outside for Morris!), or by an inexperienced tuner, won't respond well to being tuned; metal fatigue will be a real problem. However, in my experience - over thirty years - pretty well every high pitch concertina has been lovingly looked after, and will respond well to retuning. Fortunately, older concertinas have reeds fastened to the reedplates with screws, so it is fairly easy to re-grind larger reeds to 'repair' smaller ones - I often use the 'surviving' reed on an accordion or melodeon reedplate for this purpose. BTW, I have an original Lachenal portable tuning bellows, which lives in the case containing my Edeophone and 30 key Anglo, just in case an emergency arises!! |