Buying your way in.

14 Feb 02 - 11:12 PM (#650564)
Subject: Buying your way in.
From: 53

I"m a country music fan, but country music has to be the biggest bullshit producer in all of the music industry. It's saying is, if you have the money, we've got the time. and that's wrong, and just plain bullshit.

---

14 Feb 02 - 11:18 PM (#650569)
Subject: RE: Buying your way in.
From: Amergin

the same goes for rock music and basically any other form of music, too.....

---

14 Feb 02 - 11:20 PM (#650571)
Subject: RE: Buying your way in.
From: 53

Rock music is a little different, if you don't have it, then you don't make it.

---

14 Feb 02 - 11:34 PM (#650587)
Subject: RE: Buying your way in.
From: Amergin

so Brittany Spears must be very talented then.....

---

14 Feb 02 - 11:35 PM (#650591)
Subject: RE: Buying your way in.
From: Anahootz

'fraid he's got ya there, 53

---

14 Feb 02 - 11:37 PM (#650595)
Subject: RE: Buying your way in.
From: 53

I don't think so, so maybe you're right, but it just seems that it pops up more in country music, or maybe I should say, is that I keep a closer tab on country since we were screwed over pretty good since we didn't have any money to talk with. Sucks huh?

---

14 Feb 02 - 11:45 PM (#650598)
Subject: RE: Buying your way in.
From: Murray MacLeod

Tell us more Bob, how did you get screwed over, did somebody steal your songs, or did you make a record and never get royalties, or what?

Murray

---

14 Feb 02 - 11:50 PM (#650599)
Subject: RE: Buying your way in.
From: 53

Ever heard of Jessica Andrews or Leann Rhimes? from the playpen to the stage, never did pay any dues what so ever, and no we didn't have our music stolen, we just never did have any money to buy up a record deal, I think we were good enough, I know we were good enough, but that doesn't count, it's all about money.

---

14 Feb 02 - 11:59 PM (#650603)
Subject: RE: Buying your way in.
From: GUEST,.gargoyle

If you were "market-able" you WOULD have a "market."

No one will "make it happen" for you.

Out of 1,500 talented, dedicated, original "wanna-be"s ...... what makes "53" the "cream" that should rise to the top.?

If "YOU" can make "da man" a buck.....believe it....YOU WILL get exposure and play-time!!!

Meantime...... either market more, practice more, find a new edge...... or live in a world of bitter, unfulfilled fantasy, crying in your beer.... about the never tasted yolk.....telling a tale of woe....to those you do not know.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

---

15 Feb 02 - 12:00 AM (#650604)
Subject: RE: Buying your way in.
From: Murray MacLeod

But Bob, plenty of poor people have made it big in Country music. Hank Williams didn't start off with a zillion bucks, did he?

Murray

---

15 Feb 02 - 12:12 AM (#650610)
Subject: RE: Buying your way in.
From: Murray MacLeod

Bob does have a point, there are a hell of a lot of "singers" making a living from country music who have very little musical talent.

Don't give up, however, even the Beatles were turned down by Decca before they were signed up by Parlophone.

Murray

---

15 Feb 02 - 12:21 AM (#650618)
Subject: RE: Buying your way in.
From: DonMeixner

Gargoyle is only half right I think. If its true that only the talented cream make it to the top. How come there are no ugly women currently moving up the pole in country music. How come there are no fat homely men doing the same. (Lyle Lovett and Garth Brooks maybe the exceptions to the rule.)

I'll grant that there a lot of pretty people out there who happen to be talented. But isn't it odd that Shelby Lynn couldn't go anywhere really until she coiffed up and showed a little hip and shoulder. The fact that she is another Patsy Cline (IMHO) didn't help at all until she got beautified.

Trisha Yearwood has been in the Spa and suddenly became more marketable, What happened to Wynnona Judd.

Nashville music, by the way, is more package than pickage anymore. It stopped being country music about ten years ago. If you want country music don't look in Nashville, it all packed it in an moved back to the farm.

And if you want Western music don't go to Branson, look for Michael Martin Murphy, The Sons of the San Jaquin, Don Edwards, Rattle Snake Annie, and a bunch of others who are on the edge of obscurity.

Don

---

15 Feb 02 - 12:45 AM (#650627)
Subject: RE: Buying your way in.
From: Clifton53

Been crying about this for years. Slicker than snot and colder than a well-diggers ass, that's 'Country' to me nowadays. Hank would be elsewhere these days.

Clifton

Hang in there bob, 'songs' last forever!

---

15 Feb 02 - 02:29 AM (#650649)
Subject: RE: Buying your way in.
From: Hrothgar

And look at Kylie Minogue - should have her own chapter in the marketing text books, but who would mention her when discussing music?

---

15 Feb 02 - 08:57 AM (#650743)
Subject: RE: Buying your way in.
From: Grab

Britney is rock?! Since when?

Pop music has always been manufactured and marketed - there has never, ever, been a pop band without a manager telling them what to do/say and how to market their stuff. Including the Beatles. All that's happened is that pop has spread out to pop-country, pop-rock, pop-rap, etc...

If ppl will buy it, then someone will sell it. If you've bought a CD by any of the ppl mentioned in this thread, then you're part of the problem.

Graham.

---

15 Feb 02 - 10:58 AM (#650827)
Subject: RE: Buying your way in.
From: Rick Fielding

I think a great many country performers who had marketable talent and started out young (Tanya Tucker, Marty Stuart, leanne Rhymes, Mark O'Connor etc.) would STRONGLY disagree that they didn't pay a LOT of dues. Record Companies are on the lookout for people and bands who have EVERYTHING in place....Looks..talent..willingness to tour endlessly...and most important..attitude. But always remember, whether it's Country, Rock, Folk, Pop, Gospel, whatever...if a company is willing to invest BIG BUCKS in an act, then they are first selling APPEARANCE and SEX APPEAL. Yup, even with Gospel acts. That's business.

Cheers

Rick

---

15 Feb 02 - 11:18 AM (#650850)
Subject: RE: Buying your way in.
From: Steve Latimer

Clifton,

As the late Waylon said, "I don't think Hank done it that way".

I think true talent will rise to the top, altbough the top may not be the two year Gazillion dollar thing like the Boy Bands and the Britneys. Instead it will be appreciate by those who love music, not laser light shows and dance numbers. Willie, Dylan, CSN&Y and many others are still packing houses wherever they go. Now I'm a raging heterosexual so I can't be sure, but I doubt that these guys are doing it on Sex appeal.

I think that there are two definite markets. People who want entertainment and people who want to hear music. I think that the true music lovers are much more loyal and don't care about "the package". Just look at how the recent passings of Dave Van Ronk & Waylon Jennings have affected people around here.

Having said that, I wish my seats were nearer to the stage when I saw Emmylou last week. I do think she is a beutiful woman, but I heard her and fell in love with her voice before I ever saw her.

---

15 Feb 02 - 11:24 AM (#650858)
Subject: RE: Buying your way in.
From: gnu

Anyone ever hear Waylon give thanks to Tommy Hunter for Tommy's help at the beginning of his career ? Just curious.

---

15 Feb 02 - 11:25 AM (#650859)
Subject: RE: Buying your way in.
From: 53

Gargoyle, you just don't get it, i'm not complaing about our band, i'm talking about talent in general, it does take more than 1 3 5 as you said, if you know anything about music, you'll know it takes time and lots of hard work, called paying your dues, do some research, on the biggis and you'll know what i'm talking about.

---

15 Feb 02 - 03:30 PM (#651009)
Subject: RE: Buying your way in.
From: Murray MacLeod

Bob, if you are trying to sell country songs with a 1, 3, 5 progression, you are doomed to fail.

Murray

---

16 Feb 02 - 01:24 AM (#651339)
Subject: RE: Buying your way in.
From: Kaleea

My Daddy loved country music, and one of the songs he used to sing was "If'n yew got the money, honey, I got the time! If'n yew ain't got no money, honey, I ain't got no time . . ."

---

16 Feb 02 - 05:06 AM (#651405)
Subject: RE: Buying your way in.
From: C-flat

The music industry stopped being about talent a long time ago. Sure, there are some extremely talented people in the business,but it is just that,a business! Whether you're talking country,pop,rock,rap,those at the top have had a career plan and proper management to get there.You don't just go from local pub gig to national exposure without some serious background work from people who know what they're doing and who to call.It all takes money,so if you've less talent than the next guy but a lot more loot you've got the upper hand.I'm not trying to say that us poor folk have been cheated, because in reality,very few of us would have real talent.I've been gigging for 30 years and would consider myself reasonably accomplished but I've stood next to kids with scary ability and most of them are never going to get more than a local reputation unless someone dives in with a serious lump of cash.I stopped trying to make a living out of music some time ago and since then I,m enjoying gigging in a way I had forgotten!

---

16 Feb 02 - 06:26 AM (#651423)
Subject: RE: Buying your way in.
From: Jeremiah McCaw

Everybody pays their dues. Some sooner, some later. No exceptions.

(Anybody know where I can apply for a rebate?)

---

16 Feb 02 - 09:07 AM (#651473)
Subject: RE: Buying your way in.
From: Steve Latimer

The big music companies are all about money & marketing. And let's face it, they are in business to make money and have found formulas that work. That's why there are now so many smaller independant companies doing fairly well. People who love music tend to have CD's that are put out by the likes of Allgator, Blind Pig, Stony Plain, Borealis etc.

If you build it, they will come. You may never get as rich as Britney, The Bathroom Boys, N Stync etc. but you should be able to sell some CD's play some gigs and festivals and most importantly, share you music with others.

---

16 Feb 02 - 11:46 AM (#651512)
Subject: RE: Buying your way in.
From: Bobert

Woody Allen says that "Life is a crapshoot". Well, there is that variable in the country music scene, fir sure. Just think of the of the incredible number of really talented musicans who haven't "made it". But there is the business side of country music that limits the number of folks that can occupy the top rung and the industry isn't likely to promote someone just because of talent. One also has to come in with a different sound so that no one gets knocked off the top rung. But as for this ol hillbilly, I'd rather enjoy playing music on the bottom rung than find it to be a job on the top rung.

---

16 Feb 02 - 11:53 AM (#651519)
Subject: RE: Buying your way in.
From: 53

Murray you're right, plenty of poor people make it in the music business, and the only way they do is working their way up the ladder of sucess.

---

16 Feb 02 - 11:55 AM (#651523)
Subject: RE: Buying your way in.
From: 53

Grab, I made a mistake, I Don't know what type you would label Britney Spears.

---

16 Feb 02 - 11:58 AM (#651525)
Subject: RE: Buying your way in.
From: 53

Murray, you're right I meant 1 4 5, since I don't use the number system, since I"m not a Nashville pickerI learn the chords to each key.

---

16 Feb 02 - 12:02 PM (#651530)
Subject: RE: Buying your way in.
From: 53

Guest, Gargoyle, Have we ever met? I don't think so cause if we had met I think that I would of remembered a dumb ass like you, who speaks out of his ass, so from now on get the facts before you speak.

---

16 Feb 02 - 12:04 PM (#651531)
Subject: RE: Buying your way in.
From: 53

C flat, your post was so true, and i thank you.

---

16 Feb 02 - 12:05 PM (#651533)
Subject: RE: Buying your way in.
From: 53

Thanks Jeremiah.

---

16 Feb 02 - 12:06 PM (#651535)
Subject: RE: Buying your way in.
From: GUEST,Celtic Soul, sans cookies

I guess it depends on your definition of "making it". If being a household name kind of fame is your goal, then yeah, you need money (or you need to sleep with the right people).

If earning a living at your craft is making it, then Seamus Kennedy has made it, and I'd hazard a guess to say he paid no one for the honor (nor did he sleep his way there).

If making music, and doing it well, and having some recognition in a very small pond is your definition of making it, then there are a hundred names I could spill out for you.

All depends on your primary goals.

---

16 Feb 02 - 12:08 PM (#651536)
Subject: RE: Buying your way in.
From: 53

I hope that I've answered all the questions and the goof ups about my post, I guess it was just the wrong post to enter into mudcat, maybe VH-1 would of been better.

---

16 Feb 02 - 12:33 PM (#651549)
Subject: RE: Buying your way in.
From: allanwill

I say this without any real knowledge but it seems to me it's the glitzy glamour stuff originating out of Nashville that puts me right off country music. However, the "alternate" country music scene (I think thats the term) is great and, to me, is almost like a link to folk music.

Here in Australia we have some great country artists, the ladies, especially, such as Kasey Chambers, Beccy Cole, Jane Saunders, Shanley Dell, et al.

Allan

---

16 Feb 02 - 01:20 PM (#651580)
Subject: RE: Buying your way in.
From: DougR

The whole country music scene has changed since Hank Williams was out and about. There is an awfully lot of luck involved as well as talent.

A couple (vocalist, guitar, and his wife, bass player) played a steady gig at my local pub for about five years. Tom has a great voice, and is a very talented song-writer. His wife (Ex now) backed him well on bass and also sang well. I have been friends with Eddy Arnold's manager for over thirty years, and one night when he was in town, I asked him out to the Pub to hear them. He thought they had a lot of talent, but counseled them that they would never make it playing at a Pub in Phoenix, Arizona, if they wanted to make the "Big Time." They would have to go to Nashville, and he offered to open some doors for them. They chose not to go though. Even with someone well connected to open doors, it is very risky to go to Nashville and to try to make it big.

Garg is a long-time member here, 53, and though he rarely holds anything back, he does, I think, have a point. If the talent is there; if you have a unique vocal quality (when someone hears you on the radio they immediatily know it is you), and if you are exposed to people who believe they can make money by helping you, and you are in the right place at the right time, and appeal to the ladies, you can be a star.

DougR

---

16 Feb 02 - 02:24 PM (#651626)
Subject: RE: Buying your way in.
From: 53

Doug, I wasn't complaing , I was just stating a fact, he was the one that took the ball and started the name calling and other things, I just had to rebute his statement, and if ihe's been around here for a long while that explains the type of posts that he makes. sorry.

---

16 Feb 02 - 02:29 PM (#651632)
Subject: RE: Buying your way in.
From: 53

Don, I'm not trying to make it, I was just merely stating facts about the music industry.

---

16 Feb 02 - 03:03 PM (#651648)
Subject: RE: Buying your way in.
From: Don Firth

Okay, point taken. From what I've seen on the tube, I tend to think that a cute belly-button is about all that's needed.

Don Firth

---

16 Feb 02 - 03:50 PM (#651671)
Subject: RE: Buying your way in.
From: catspaw49

ORIGINAL POST: "I'm a country music fan, but country music has to be the biggest bullshit producer in all of the music industry. It's saying is, if you have the money, we've got the time. and that's wrong, and just plain bullshit."

Okay......Where isn't this true? The business world? Nope. Sports? Nope.

If you have a talent at whatever and are willing to bust your balls repeatedly, eventually you will put together enough of a "package" to become saleable to the backers or employers or whatever. Now you can have NO talent for whatever it is and all the money in the world or some sort of "package" and you will have great success.....for awhile. Then you'll fade like yesterday's rose. You can buy your way to the top, but you won't stay there and sometimes all the hard work and passion/desire will never get you to the top, but to those in the know, you will have made it. Now it may not be "fair" but it is certainly life. As old street racers used to say, Money talks; Bullshit walks. Eventually the money will not be enough, but it's often enough for awhile. 'Tis the way of the world.

If you make the decision to do it your way, then enjoy the satisfaction in doing what you believe in and what you love......expect nothing else, but don't begrudge those who have decided on a different course.

Spaw

Spaw

---

16 Feb 02 - 04:08 PM (#651680)
Subject: RE: Buying your way in.
From: DougR

I didn't intend to sound harsh, Bob, and no apology is necessary. I think Garg is a good guy, and he does know a helluva lot about music. He just didn't listen to his momma when she said, Garg, be nice. He can be though.

I really don't know how to classify the kind of music coming out of Nashville these days. It certainly has changed from what I consider to be country music. They produce the kind of music that people buy though. And Spaw is right. It's just a business, and a big one. Many young (emphasis on the young) performers go to Nashville, make a hit record, and you never hear from them again. Those that make it, and stay on or close to the top are pretty rare, I think.

Sorry if this is creep, but it illustrates, I think, the mind-set of the powers that be in Nashville. A few years ago Former Stars of the Grand Ole Opry appeared at the State Fair here in Arizona. All or most all of the big names were in the troup: Porter Wagoner, George Hamilton IV, Kitty Wells, Little Jimmy Dickens, etc. You give me a name and he/she was probably here. I thought it was a terrible marketing mistake to bill them as "Former." But in Nashville probably some of those folks who made and sometimes lost millions, are literally hanging on. They rarely get airtime on radio anyplace, anytime.

DougR

---

16 Feb 02 - 06:39 PM (#651767)
Subject: RE: Buying your way in.
From: 53

Doug, very well said. Spaw, I really don't understand what you're trying to say, so please put it where a moron like me can understand what you're trying to say.

---

16 Feb 02 - 11:38 PM (#651898)
Subject: RE: Buying your way in.
From: 53

Did anyone watch CMT's Grand Ole Opry tonite? Those boys up on that stage have really paid there dues, just check the history on them and you'll see what dues are made for.

---

17 Feb 02 - 09:40 AM (#652050)
Subject: RE: Buying your way in.
From: DonMeixner

Hi Don,

I like looking at a cute belly button as much as the next guy. But,... if Faith Hill were to come to town on the same night as Nanci Griffith or Mary Chapin Carpenter I'd be hard pressed to choose between Nanci or Mary. And if they weren't in town and Faith was I'd probably stay home and rent a film or get in some banjo practice.

This is a sizzle or steak arguement. All too rarely does the talent equal the packaging in Nashville music or modern Pop. Robin and Linda Williams have been on the verge of being overnight successes for 30 years. Beautiful Harmonies, incredible writing, excellent instrumentation, paid ahead on their dues. But the Nashville Machine doesn't seem to discover talent thats in their fifties. Robin and Linda are at the age in their performance lives where most people get in Halls of Fame.

So it can't be the talent, skill, and the something special that has held them back. (If they are held back, Maybe they are right where they want to be. But that is another and maybe equally intriguing debate.) It has to be the Nashville Machine.

Don

---

17 Feb 02 - 12:31 PM (#652142)
Subject: RE: Buying your way in.
From: DougR

I do think age is a real factor Don. It would be hard for anyone over forty to make it big in Nashville, I believe.

DougR

---

17 Feb 02 - 08:56 PM (#652399)
Subject: RE: Buying your way in.
From: 53

Boy am I glad I don't have to listen to some of the bulls... in this thread.

I won't be back for awhile.

Too bad you guys don't really know the man Bob is.

Glenda (53 too)

---

17 Feb 02 - 09:50 PM (#652424)
Subject: RE: Buying your way in.
From: Bobert

Yo, 53, like your dad told ya' when ya' jumped off the roof into the wading pool on a dare...Shake it off. Play.. and more importantly... enjoy your music. The rest of it will take care of itself. If it's your goal to "make it" then "make it" on the rung you're on now. Hey, for most folks, that's enough. Like I posted earlier. The world is full of very talented musicans. That top rung and even the rungs just below are reserved for the luckier, the most determined, the ones with well oiled connections and the ones who have been waiting in the wings to replace folks who occupy a niche. Country music isn't a whole lot different than NASCAR in that respect. Like I said, just enjoy playing, 53. That is the blessing.

---

17 Feb 02 - 11:06 PM (#652452)
Subject: RE: Buying your way in.
From: Rick Fielding

Finally! A proper diagnosis..." a truncated syllogism"! Thanks Garg, now I'll be able to play those 6/9b5s!

By the way folks, did ya know that only 20 Country artists at a time are getting OVER 80% of the contemporary "New Country" Airplay these days.

Personally, I knew the music was in trouble when I saw a poster of Dolly Parton with her banjo in playing mode....her fretting hand fingernails were at least an inch long! Ha Ha! (attractive poster though)

P.S. Glenda, this thread is VERY representative of an internet discussion. There have been knowledgable facts, opinions, silliness, disagreements, and yes, curmudgeonly wisecracks. But that's the net...that's the current Mudcat. ya gotta go with the flow, or it'll eat ya up.

Cheers

Rick

---

18 Feb 02 - 12:29 AM (#652482)
Subject: RE: Buying your way in.
From: DonMeixner

Hi Doug,

I think you are very correct.

No doubt that age is an issue. Lets find another Billy Gillman as soon as we can. A good looking boy, or maybe a girl this time,with a nice voice. He's been paying those dues since he was , what, 8? Four years of the highs and lows of the "Eat Me Up Music Machine". I won't argue that Billy isn't a talented young man but there are MANY talented young men in every middle school in the country who are as handsome and can sing as well or better. Don't think that Billy is the most talented 12 year old to walk the planet. But he is a willing participant it seems. And I don't think that that is bad either.

Billy is a manufactured phenomenon. He is where he is because he was handled, packaged and presented to a public that wanted his product. ( His parents? I wonder.) I'm sure he works hard and he does a great job. But he is a product. He is a newer better Billy Gillman, just the best product that someone's money and packaging could present to a buying public. What an investment potential! At 12 he may have as much a 40 years of earning big money. Of course there is a gamble, any day those puberty germs may turn that great voice into Alfalfa Switzer and Billy is washed up.

But just look at the bike rack at the Ramsdell Middle School for another Billy.

This is just exactly what 53 (Bob) was talking about. My friends Robin amd Linda are the other end of the discussion. Nobody wants to find the next middle aged phenomenon. There are so many to choose from. Why invest in someone new who is 50 is you only have a few years to get your money back.

I think anyone who attempts to make a living in the entertainment business deserves to make it as big as possible. Skill doesn't matter as long as the public is entertained. The only people concerned with who has paid there dues are the other entertainers in the business. And the industry proper isn't gonna care one wit whether it is Robin and Linda or Billy Gillman who is THE Thing at the moment as long as the investors get their money back and the industry it self is promoted along the way.

As for me I ain't bitter about nothing. I like where I am in the cosmic scheme. I work as much as I can. I have a new guitar. And I have perfect strangers asking me to sing a song I wrote where ever our band plays. The investment is mine alone.

Don

---

20 Feb 02 - 07:41 AM (#653894)
Subject: RE: Buying your way in.
From: GUEST

refresh

---

20 Feb 02 - 08:40 AM (#653913)
Subject: RE: Buying your way in.
From: Fortunato

53 and Glenda, I feel sad about the way this thread has gone. From reading your posts it seem to me that you were personally hurt by some responses here.

I have noticed that you, 53, attempt to start threads about guitars and music, and I prefer those kinds of threads. They often start good discussions. I'm glad you participate here on the Mudcat.

Gargoyle was here on the Mudcat when I showed up and seemed to participate more at that time, or else I've just been on different threads. His style(personality, perspective,etc) and that of some others is very "in your face". If that style were used oftener here some folks might just go away, and others would grow thicker skins. It's a bit surprising when it's unusual.

But the fact is it's an open forum. So since I appreciate you and want you to stay, I'm going to offer a suggestion. Ignore what seems unpleasant to you, focus on the responses you find acceptable. And don't take things that might hurt your feelings seriously.

It's just conversation and cannot change who you are.

regards, Fortunato

---

20 Feb 02 - 09:19 AM (#653940)
Subject: RE: Buying your way in.
From: C-flat

As a newcomer here myself I can understand how "53" may feel under attack for what,at face value,seems a reasonable comment regarding the music industry in general.The business IS unfair in the way it operates and I didn't think "53" was doing anything more than starting a thread that most of us have a point of veiw on.I think "fortunato's" comments are bang on and I hope "53" decides to stick around as he seems to be here for the right reasons.

---