Origins: Do ye ken John Peel?

25 Mar 98 - 05:21 PM (#24566)
Subject: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: [e-mail]

There is an old English folk song titled "Do ye ken John Peel?" (ken means "know"). I have the lyrics but I'm trying to find out more about the person John Peel. He hunted with hounds in 19th century England and died in 1854. Would appreciate any additional info I can get.

charlotte

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25 Mar 98 - 06:38 PM (#24584)
Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: alison

Hi,

Can't remember very much.... but there was something about him (or someone else by the name of Peel) being in the police. Therefore police became known as "peelers".

Slainte

Alison

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25 Mar 98 - 07:02 PM (#24586)
Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: Ould Bobby Bob

The Peel of the Peelers was Sir Robert Peel, who set up a police force in London.

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25 Mar 98 - 08:52 PM (#24610)
Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: Bert

I used to work with a guy who claimed to be a descendent of his. He come from North West England, somewhere up Barrow In Furness way.

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26 Mar 98 - 02:26 PM (#24653)
Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: MarcB

There is a display on John Peel in the Museum of the Border Regiment in Carlisle Castle in Carlisle, Cumbria, England. He hailed from that quarter though I can't remember what I read about his connection to the Borderers. I have made an inquiry regarding that connection and will pass it on to you all when I find out.

They have original sheet music, manuscipt, etc. for the song. As it's one that I've been doing for a while, and recorded with Morrigan on Folkways, I was very interested to find Mr. Peel's native soil:)

MarcB

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26 Mar 98 - 03:47 PM (#24658)
Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: charlotte

Wow. Thank you MarcB; that's the most I've found out so far. I'll have to check a map to see if that's the same area Bert's friend is from. I'm looking forward to reading more if you find out.

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27 Mar 98 - 09:52 AM (#24731)
Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: Bert

Just found this

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27 Mar 98 - 11:04 PM (#24750)
Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: rich r

The following extended quote is taken from "The American Song Treasury: 100 Favorites" by Theodore Raph (Dover, 1986). The book was originally published in 1964 as "The Songs We Sang: A Treasury of American Popular Music"

"This is the song of a fox hunt, a sport originating in the British Isles around 1700 and still quite popular up to the present time. John Pel was a real person, the English novelist John George Whyte-Melville, formerly a captain in the Coldstream Guards. He was an expert hunter during the middle 1800's and was considered the laureate of fox hunting. ON the occasion of his death on the hunting field in 1854, Whyte-Melville's friends attended the funeral after which they went for drinks. Here was the setting for the birth of "D'Ye Ken John Peel". After a couple of drinks one of his close friends , John Woodcock Graves, scribbled some verses in tribute to Whyte-Melville. He used the melody of an old folk song "Bonnie Annie." It is very likely the original "Bonnie Annie" arrived in America shortly after the War of 1812, but only a small handful of people were attracted to it. Years later, when Graves' version appeared, interest picked up to some extent. Many glee clubs and college students adopted the song, and with the aid of folk-song enthusiasts the song was kept very much alive well into this century. However, it was not until the mid-1940's that this melody became nationally popular om the from of the Pepsi Cola jingle frequently played over the radio. After the jingle was discontinued the catchy melody was still remembered and enjoyed by millions, and thus the original "John Peel" lyrics were restored."

I cannot attest to the veracity of this tale, but it seems too elaborate with precise names to be totally apocraphal. One small inconsistency is the last line stating the original John Peel lyrics were restored when the original lyrics were really Bonnie Annie. Anybody know the Pepsi jingle?

rich r

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28 Mar 98 - 07:00 AM (#24761)
Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: Ferrara

There's a song, "The Horn of the Hunter," which Ed Trickett sings, that's also about John Peel but is recent.

I've heard (truth or fakelore?) that the words "with his coat so gay" really should be "in his coat of gray." According to my friend (a Mudcat member), John Peel always hunted on foot (?), not being of the upper classes; and always wore a gray (or grey) coat. Maybe he can supply more info.

A bit of the jingle:

Pepsi Cola hits the spot / 12 full ounces that's a lot / ???? and ?? too -- /Pepsi Cola is so good for you.

The last line is different from the tune in John Peel. Bill Day will probably remember the missing line.

In college (early 60's) we came up with variations on this jingle, mostly irreverant and/or indecent. I only remember,

Christianity hits the spot,/ 12 apostles, that's a lot,/ Holy Ghost and the Virgin too,/ Christianity is good for you.

Any more?

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28 Mar 98 - 01:18 PM (#24764)
Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: dick greenhaus

a) anyone can discover Horn of the Hunter---it's in the database.

The original "missing" line for the Pepsi Jingle was:

"Twice as much for a nickle, too"

to note the fact that Pepsi came in 12-ounce bottles while the classic wasp-waisted Coca Cola bottle held 6.

There was once a parody relating to South Africa which started: Do ye ken Jan Smuts..

Anuone remember it?

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28 Mar 98 - 02:09 PM (#24769)
Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: Bruce O.

According to an article by Anne Geddes Gilchrist in Journal of the English Folk Dance and Song Society, 1941, the song was by John Percival Graves. The tune evolved from "Red House" in the Dancing Master from 1695, through "Whaur will our goodman lie"/" "Where will bonny Annie lie", and it was apparently Peel's mother's singing of "Bonnie (or Canty) Annie" to her grandson that gave Graves his tune. Gilchrist cites several subsequent publications of the tune in Scots works, and in John Gay's 'Polly'. She also discuses the fragments of songs seemingly connected with the fragmentary song "Bonnie Annie", of which not much is really known. She gave the 'Dancing Master' tune, one from Oswald's Caledonian Pocket Companion, and a Welsh version of c 1896. The latter, in English, is 'The Red House of Cardiff- a pipe dance.'

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28 Mar 98 - 08:40 PM (#24816)
Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: Alan of Australia

G'day,
Does anybody know if "Horn Of The Hunter" was originally about John Peel? I've heard it said that it was first written about another hunter (Joe Bowman???) and later changed to the better known (to the world at large) John Peel.

Cheers,
Alan

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29 Mar 98 - 06:14 AM (#24824)
Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: Alan of Australia

G'day,
Here's another version of "Horn Of The Hunter"

^^
JOHN PEEL

Come listen, you lads that love hunting,
You sportsmen, so gallant and true;
I'll sing of a hero, the gamest
That ever old Cumberland knew;
With him I have often at morning,
Been out on the fells with the dawn;
John Peel was no feather-bed sluggard,
This all who knew him must own.

But the horn of the hunter is silent;
On the banks of the Ellen no more,
Nor in Denton is heard its wild echo;
Clear sounding o'er Cauda's dark roar.

By Caldbeck, by Sebrham, by Welton,
Through Rosley, through Raughton, we've sped;
By Carrick's broad bosom we've halloed,
When o'er it the hunt wildly fled;
John Peel would have outstripped both Nimrod,
And left him long miles to the rear;
The blast of Peel's horn in the morning
Was music no fox liked to hear.

How often from Brayton to Skiddaw,
Through Isel, Bewaldeth, Whitefield,
We galloped like mad things together
Until in the saddle we reeled.
No scarlet, no broadcloth adorned us
No buckskin that rivalled the snow
But plain Skiddaw grey was our garment
We wore it for work not for show.

Those days are long past, but they'll never
Pass out of the mind and the heart
They'll be sung the world over forever
As long as men join in the sport;
John Peel was a man like no other
The dearest of all men to me
And John Woodcock Graves I'll remember,
A hunter both happy and free.

'Mongst Cumberland hills Peel is sleeping
Old Skiddaw looks over his dust
In the wilds of Tasmania lies Graves
Whose spirit is with us I trust.
Let's think they are both here tonight lads
And give them the honour that's due;
Tally-ho! Tally-ho! Hark forward!
Hark forward! a fox is in view.

Ho, lads! oft when night draws its mantle,
As back from foxhunting I steal,
My children cry, "Father come sing us
The song about famous John Peel";
Then here's to all hunters forever
Our pledge a pint deep let us seal
Tally-ho! lads, again, Tally-ho!
Remembering the days of John Peel

Cheers,
Alan

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29 Mar 98 - 06:17 AM (#24825)
Subject: Tune Add: HORN OF THE HUNTER
From: Alan of Australia

Here is a tune:

MIDI file: HORNHUNT.MID

Timebase: 480

Name: HORN OF THE HUNTER
TimeSig: 3/4 24 8
Key: C
Tempo: 120 (500000 microsec/crotchet)
Start
0960 1 67 127 0478 0 67 127 0002 1 67 127 0478 0 67 127 0002 1 67 127 0478 0 67 127 0002 1 67 127 0478 0 67 127 0002 1 64 127 0478 0 64 127 0002 1 65 127 0478 0 65 127 0002 1 67 127 0478 0 67 127 0002 1 67 127 0478 0 67 127 0002 1 65 127 1918 0 65 127 0002 1 64 127 0478 0 64 127 0002 1 62 127 0478 0 62 127 0002 1 62 127 0478 0 62 127 0002 1 62 127 0478 0 62 127 0002 1 67 127 0478 0 67 127 0002 1 67 127 0478 0 67 127 0002 1 65 127 0478 0 65 127 0002 1 64 127 2398 0 64 127 0002 1 67 127 0478 0 67 127 0002 1 67 127 0478 0 67 127 0002 1 67 127 0478 0 67 127 0002 1 67 127 0478 0 67 127 0002 1 64 127 0478 0 64 127 0002 1 65 127 0478 0 65 127 0002 1 67 127 0478 0 67 127 0002 1 67 127 0478 0 67 127 0002 1 65 127 1918 0 65 127 0002 1 65 127 0238 0 65 127 0002 1 64 127 0238 0 64 127 0002 1 62 127 0478 0 62 127 0002 1 62 127 0478 0 62 127 0002 1 62 127 0478 0 62 127 0002 1 67 127 0478 0 67 127 0002 1 65 127 0478 0 65 127 0002 1 62 127 0478 0 62 127 0002 1 60 127 2398 0 60 127
End

This program is worth the effort of learning it.

To download the March 10 MIDItext 98 software and get instructions on how to use it click here

ABC format:

X:1
T:HORN OF THE HUNTER
M:3/4
Q:1/4=120
K:C
G6|G2G2G2|E2F2G2|G2F4|-F4E2|D2D2D2|G2G2F2|
E6|-E4G2|G2G2G2|E2F2G2|G2F4|-F4FE|D2D2D2|
G2F2D2|C6|-C6||

Cheers,
Alan

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29 Mar 98 - 02:49 PM (#24828)
Subject: Lyr Add: PEPSI COLA HITS THE SPOT
From: Bill D

Not that it's important that anyone remember these things, but you asked...

Pepsi Cola hits the spot
12 full ounces, that's a lot
Twice as much, and better, too
Pepsi Cola is the drink fo you.

or, the parody..

Pepsi Cola hits the spot
Makes you vomit in the pot
Looks like water, tastes like wine
"Oh, my god, it's turpentine"

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29 Mar 98 - 04:51 PM (#24839)
Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: Bruce O.

I made an error above on "Bonnie Annie". There is a text in Herd's 'Scots Songs', II, p. 110, 1776, and I have another earlier from a mnauscript in NLS.

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29 Mar 98 - 06:28 PM (#24842)
Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: Barry Finn

The tune to the "Horn of the Hunter" is similar to the hunting song "Bellman", is there a connection between all these songs (aside from the hunt)? Thanks Barry

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31 Mar 98 - 07:48 PM (#24859)
Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: dick greenhaus

Barry- The tune was also used for The Last Revel (Here's to the next that dies.) I suspect that it was just a good tune.

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01 Apr 98 - 06:09 PM (#24943)
Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: Sasha Nyary

I have an early Pete Seeger live concert album where he is talking about how songs change. He sings the John Peel song and then says that he was singing it for some school kids who said, we sing it this way:

Pepsi Cola hits the spot ties your belly in a knot tasts like vinegar looks like ink Pepsi Cola is a stinky drink!

PS -- The English constables take their nickname, a bobby, from Sir Robert Peel.

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01 Apr 98 - 07:23 PM (#24957)
Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: charlotte

Thanks to all who have contributed to the research on John Peel. You have made a believer in computers out of a 96 year old friend who is still avidly collecting antiques and info. She bought a tea caddy spoon with a likeness of John Peel and wanted to know just who this character was. And I've discovered Mudcat Cafe.

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02 Apr 98 - 12:40 PM (#24975)
Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: Bert

Ah, a Tea caddy spoon. Haven't seen one for years. They were a must in every household when I was a kid.

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02 Apr 98 - 06:36 PM (#24992)
Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From:

The tradition of hunt songs goes on, whatever we may think of the tradition of fox hunting per se.

One individual with a fine collection and a participant role in the tradition was extremely pissed off when some of his lyrics were "stolen" by someone with an interest in the area. Hunt songs are very private to the hunts for whom they are generated.

The likes of Alan Bell of the Blackpool Taverners was able to get some songs from the Lancashire hunting tradition, but his name was "mud" amongst the traditional sources who were helping to produce the material

Ould Bobby Bob..

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02 Apr 98 - 07:02 PM (#24997)
Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: Bruce O.

There are about 75 hunting songs in each of the three volumes of 'The Universal Songster', 1825-28.

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03 Apr 98 - 07:42 AM (#25033)
Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: S.P. Buck Mulligan

Slightly off the topic, but I think the song itself has been thoroughly covered - the mention of the tea caddy spoon reminded me that my Gran (a Scot from the Victorian era) had a mug (stirrup cup) with a hunting scene on it, and a music box in the bottom that played "John Peel." Wish I had it now.

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04 Apr 98 - 03:00 PM (#25126)
Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: Ferrara

Barry Finn said that the tune of the hunting song "Bellman" is similar to that of "The Horn of the Hunter." There may actually be a connection; one of John Peel's famous hunting hounds was named Bellman.

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05 Apr 98 - 10:43 PM (#25235)
Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: Bob Bolton

This is a minor postscript to "D'ye Ken John Peel".

When I first roamed from my home in Sydney, New South Wales, Australia, down south to the cool climes of Hobart: Tasmania, Australia, I noticed that the iron railing fence around St David's Park was formed in five horizontal lines, like music staves. Into the stave was worked a design of musical notes forming the opening bars of "D'ye Ken John Peel".

I was told that this was because the park had been the graveyard of St David's, the Anglican cathedral church of Hobart and was the burial place of the author of the song "D'ye Ken John Peel"(presumably, John Woodcock Graves).

I know that fox hunting had appealed to the early colonists - especially down in Tasmania's more English climate and they had imported foxes to release and provide their traditional sport. It was believed that the foxes had died out (or been hunted out) but last year the team investigating claimed sightings of the (presumably) extinct "Tasmanian Tiger" (Thylacine) had followed tracks and spoor - and located a surving family of foxes!

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06 Apr 98 - 12:12 AM (#25238)
Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: Alan of Australia

G'day Bob,
Welcome to Mudcat. As a keen photographer I presume you took a shot or two of this fence? I was in that park about 35 years ago, but my interests were different then and I don't remember the fence.

Cheers,
Alan

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06 Apr 98 - 04:38 PM (#25286)
Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: Pete M

Hi and all

Couple more points which may be of interest. John Peel hunted in the Lake District where the hounds are followed on foot, nothing like the commonly exported pictures of mounted "unspeakables in the pursuit of the uneatable". His coat so grey note not "gay" as is sometimes recorded refers to the Hoddden grey cloth woven from the fleece of the Herdwick sheep grazed in the area.

Ferrera, "Horn of the Hunter" was *not* anything to do wuth John Peel, it is about John Bownam, another far more recent Lake District huntsman. The Lyrics also chronical the flooding of Mardale in the thirties to provide what is now the Haweswater resevoir for Manchester and other Nw industrial towns. The Dun Bull was the local pub, and Haweswater was the original Lake which formed the basis of the resevoir. The last time I was in the Lakes in about 1985 from memory, the water was so low that the remains of the old village could be seen

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06 Apr 98 - 08:33 PM (#25314)
Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: Bob Bolton

G'day Alan [not to be confused with "G'day" - Registered trademark of SOCOG, used only on authorised contexts of the Sydney (Copyright) 2000 (trademark, copyright and registered) Games (Trademark registered), etcetera - if we let the greedy bastards get away with it!]

Actually, when I first saw the fence with the "D'ye Ken John Peel" music it was around 1966 and I was whizzing down to Hobart on my motorbike, between 6-day weeks working on the Hydro Dams. I did take a few photographs once I was working in Hobart itself but St David's Park was on my way to Hampden Road and courting, so I guess I ahd other things on my mind as well.

However, I will search through what passes for files from my pre-professional photography days and see if we have a pic of the harmonious fence.

Regards,

Bob Bolton

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06 Apr 98 - 11:37 PM (#25332)
Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: Alan of Australia

Pete,
You've answered my question, this thread 28 March, where I thought it might have been Joe Bowman. Was it John or Joe? I thought Joe because there is another hunting song titled "Joe Bowman".

Cheers,
Alan

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06 Apr 98 - 11:59 PM (#25334)
Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: Bruce O.

There's lots of fences in the Lake District, with steps on both sides so strollers can climb over but the sheep can't. Common sight I suppose for an Englishman, but as an American, I was impressed. There's lots of rocks too, all the way up to what the English call mountains. Ambleside and other small towns on the edge of Lake Windemere are built on the side of hills, with very narrow streets. You walk into a building off the street and go to the back of the building and look down and you see that you're on the second or third storey from the other side. Buildings on the other side of the street aren't very deep. Hills and mountains in the way.

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07 Apr 98 - 09:13 AM (#25352)
Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: Bert

....what the English call mountains....

Just to get these mountains in proportion. If you were to take the highest mountain in the British Isles and bring it to Colorado Springs (which is on the plains) you would have to dig down about a thousand feet to get to the top of it.

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08 Apr 98 - 02:19 AM (#25409)
Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: alison

Hi,

The steps over those fences are called "stiles".

Slainte

alison

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08 Apr 98 - 04:31 PM (#25449)
Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: Bruce O.

That's 'steell' in 17th century Lancashire dialect in "Robbie and Granny" on my website in the Scarce Songs file.

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08 Apr 98 - 04:43 PM (#25451)
Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: Pete M

Bruce O and Bert, - you're treading on dangerous ground mate. Mountains, like folk music are in the eye of the beholder. Altitude above sea level has nothing to do with it.

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08 Apr 98 - 05:22 PM (#25461)
Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: Bert

Pete,

Yes mountains can really get to you, I didn't mean to put down anyone's special mountains.

I worked for about a year in Tehran where the mountains are to the North. Then I moved to Colorado Springs and it took me years to get oriented to the mountains being in the West. People would say "head North" & I would go driving off towards the mountains every time.

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08 Apr 98 - 06:11 PM (#25468)
Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: Bruce O.

I once saw the top of Mt. St. Helens (c 10,000') from the top of Mt. Adams (c 12,000'). That was when St. Helens still had a top. Mt. Rainier (14,000') proved beyond me, however (maybe if our amateur guide hadn't forgotten how to get around the back side of Gibralter we might have made it. But looking down of the top of Nisqually Glacier from a quarter mile up didn't encourage experimentation.) Ever seen an avalanche up close, or jumped over a crevasse? Looking down, it's white at the top, turns greenish further down, then to blue-black, then just black. It's a little nerve racking the first time.

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08 Apr 98 - 08:15 PM (#25480)
Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: Pete M

Thanks Bert, I know exactly what you mean. Bruce O, I envy you your Mountains, I do have access to 10 -12,000 footers glaciers etc here in New Zealand, but the Lake District was where I learned about mountains and climbing. Cornices, white outs, and long drops with sharp rocks at the bottom demand the same respect where ever you are.

Happy climbing

Pete M

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11 Apr 98 - 02:40 PM (#25630)
Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: Tim Jaques [e-mail]

I have a tea caddy, an ancient pewter thing, but I was not aware that there is a special spoon that is supposed to be used with it.

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13 Apr 98 - 12:50 PM (#25711)
Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: Bert

Yes, there is a special spoon, but I've not seen one for years. The bowl is usually just a little smaller than a tablespoon and is more rounded, sometimes the bowl is decorated or fluted, somewhat like a fruit spoon. the handle is very short, often about half the length of the bowl and even more often with the logo of some seaside town on it. A one tablespoon measuring spoon would make a good substitute, you know, one of those cheap aluminum ones.

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02 Apr 99 - 08:11 PM (#67710)
Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: Ray parker, 24 beaufort avenue, High Harrington,

My mother was Anne Beatrice Hayton, brother of John Peel Hayton. Son and Daughter of Jack who lived and hunted in Clifton, Nr Workington, Cumbria. Jack died around 1976. Anne passed away in 1978 John Peel Hayton lives on.

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28 Sep 99 - 10:46 AM (#118421)
Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: sheryle W.Australia

I stumbled over these notes from your newsgroup and found them very interesting. My mother believes her family was connected to John Peel. Her immediate family came from Gateshead UK. I read with interest a note from Bert 25 Mar 1998

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28 Sep 99 - 08:16 PM (#118683)
Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: Graham Pirt

Just caught this thread - Where have I been? - I've sung John Peel for over thirty years using the second tune for it, not John Woodcock Graves'. This was written by the organist at Carlisle Cathedral. The tune that you usually hear it sung to is actually only the chorus tune to this version. The verse tune is quite different. Sorry not got my notes to hand and my memory fails! I'll try and find them for you tomorrow!

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08 Oct 99 - 10:19 AM (#122059)
Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: sheryle.W.Australia

Hello Graham Pirt I am wondering if you found your notes

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08 Oct 99 - 10:52 AM (#122073)
Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: Steve Parkes

Just to set the record straight on the intrusive British policeman who keeps getting into this thread, I'd like to point out that the modern Police Force was created by the sometime MP for Tamworth, Staffordshire, Robert ("Bobby" to his friends, e.g. Edward, Prince of Wales, and Lily Langtree) Peel - to give him his full name: Robert "Bobby" Rozzer Cozzer Copper Scuffer Bluebottle Pig Filth Tit-head Peel; whence the popular nicknames for our gallant Lads in Blue (well, black, actually ...). There is speculation as to whether he was related to the Copper Family of Rottingdean.

Steve

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14 Oct 99 - 06:41 PM (#123981)
Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: Graham Pirt

Sheryle

Can't find the article - great shame. I'll keep looking. I was interested in your Gateshead connection as I am from Jarrow only a few miles away and my family originally lived in Bassenthwaite (John Peel country)from about 1590 up to 1830.

Graham

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04 Nov 99 - 10:13 AM (#131673)
Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: sheryle western australia

thanks for your information graham I've not been able to use my internet facility for a few weeks now but back on track now my grandmothers maiden name was Sanderson, her mothers maiden name was Vint

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01 Apr 01 - 12:45 PM (#430594)
Subject: Lyr Add: D'YE MIND JOHN PEEL
From: Snuffy

Here's a completely different set of words that I've never heard anywhere else. It was recorded for Transatlantic by Dave and Toni Arthur ca. 1970, and uses the "normal" John Peel tune. It is rather too bloodthirsty for our current climate of opinion. Does anyone know where these words came from, and how old they are?

D'YE MIND JOHN PEEL

D'ye mind John Peel in the days gone by
How he cheered on the hounds with his jovial cry
And the blast of his horn echoed loudly and high
As it rang o'er the fields in the morning

CHORUS
Bright Phyllis he rode like a brave man and true
With his hounds on ahead and the fox full in view
While the green valleys rang with his loud whoop-haloo
And the blast of his horn in the morning.

Then away through the gorse-break, o'er moorland and fell
O'er swift-rolling rivers and deep craggy dell
John Peel was the foremost, that Reynard could tell
With his horn sounding shrill in the morning.

Oh, blithe was his heart when the death drew nigh
And cheery the glance of his bright blue eye
As he bore off the brush and waved it on high
With his horn sounding shrill in the morning.

Then a bumper, a bumper we'll swell in acclaim
And drain it with pride at the shrine of his fame
For long may each hunstman remember his name
And the blast of his horn in the morning.

@hunting @english
VRH

Wassail! V

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01 Apr 01 - 03:53 PM (#430718)
Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: GUEST,Bruce O.

"Where wad Bonnie Annie lie" (in the goodman's bed) is given in the Scarce Songs 2 file on my website. Also given are its tune from 'The Scots Musical Museum" and "Red House" from 'The Dancing Master', (9th ed), 1695, as ABCs.

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02 Apr 01 - 12:37 PM (#431265)
Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: GUEST,SUSIE

John Peel is buried in the graveyard at the church in Caldbeck (in the northern Lake District). I believe he was born within just a few miles from where he was buried and the song you asked about was written in a house opposite The Oddfellows Arms in Caldbeck - there's an ancient plaque over the doorway to the relevant room to commemorate the event.

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02 Apr 01 - 08:08 PM (#431592)
Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: GUEST,#1

My favourite is "Did you peel John, Ken?".

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02 Apr 01 - 10:43 PM (#431691)
Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: toadfrog

Actually, the commonly known "John Peel" is a parody of an old song Belle Stuart used to sing:

Do ye ken John Peel, aye I ken him a fu' weel.
Sleeps wi' his wife and he cannae get a feel.
Sleeps on his side and he cannae get a ride,
And he rises with a horn in the morning.

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03 Apr 01 - 05:25 AM (#431820)
Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: JudeL

According to a 40 year old copy of "the readers encyclopedia" the old english hunting song "Do you ken John Peel" was one of the songs echoed throughout "Finnegan's Wake" by James Joyce

Also in that book it says that Sir Robert Peel (1788-1850) English statesman. First lord of treasury, chancellor of exchequer, and prime minister. Reorganised Bank of England, initiated reforms in Ireland, supported free trade and emancipation of the Jews. As cheif secretary for Ireland(1812-1818) he instituted the Irish constabulary, from which came the nickname "peelers", afterwards also applied to the London police, who are also called "bobbies". - all in all sounds like he stuck his finger in a lot of pies.
Jude

---

03 Apr 01 - 10:41 AM (#432025)
Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: GUEST,Bruce O.

toadfrog, please let us see your proof that Belle Stewart's [sic] song is older.

---

04 Apr 01 - 03:00 AM (#432800)
Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: DougR

Bill D, I rememer that old Pepsi commercial a bit differently: Pepsi Cola hit's the spot, 12 full ounces and that's a lot, twice as much for a nickel too, Pepsi Cola is the drink for you! I doubt, though, John Peel, endorsed Pepsi. :>) DougR

---

13 Jun 01 - 04:02 AM (#482230)
Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: GUEST

what is Joesph Johns the bushranger nicknames

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13 Jun 01 - 10:58 PM (#483018)
Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: GUEST,wickedlad

heres a early version and tune of John Peal http://www.acronet.net/~robokopp/english/doyekenj.htm

---

14 Jun 01 - 04:24 AM (#483126)
Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: pavane

I play Ty Coch Caerdydd (Red House of Cardiff), which I learned from Mick Tems of Callenig, and it is nothing like what I remember of the tune for John Peel.

I also recall the existence a rugby song which goes to the tune of John Peel. But the only words I can remember are 'And he can't get it out with a corkscrew'

---

14 Jun 01 - 05:01 AM (#483133)
Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: IanC

D'ye ken John Peel
With his p***k of steel
And his b***s of brass
And his sandpaper a***e ...

It'll prolly be on one of the "Rugby Songs" sites.

---

14 Jun 01 - 06:11 AM (#483154)
Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler

If ya dinna ken him afore this thread ye certainly ken him the noo!
RtS (apologies to ljc)

---

14 Jun 01 - 02:28 PM (#483443)
Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: Ditchdweller

John Peel hunted with the Blethcara Hunt in the Cumberland Fells. The hunt is still extant and still hunts on foot, as it always has done and hopefully, (Smarmy Bliar and his Guardianistas not withstanding) always will do. BTW Ferrara, the hunting on foot has nothing to do with Social Standing but more with the bloody steep hills they hunt over!!! It would kill the horses!

---

16 Jun 01 - 02:16 PM (#485048)
Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: GUEST,joe

i always thought this would be the tune to carry forward the legend of Dan Quayle. maybe not

---

16 Jun 01 - 05:44 PM (#485124)
Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: pavane

Am I right in thinking that it is with Beagle Hounds that you hunt on foot?

---

16 Jun 01 - 06:33 PM (#485145)
Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)

George John Whyte-Melville (1821-1878), has a brief biography in The Encyclopaedia Britannica, 11th Ed. He was a grandson on his mother's side of the 5th Duke of Leeds and educated at Eton. He bacame Capt. Coldstream Guards in 1846 and resigned in 1849. [So much for the statement that he was not of the upper classes]. He translated Horace in 1850 and became a novelist. "The unflagging verve and intimate technical knowledge with which he described sporting scenes and sporting characters at once drew attention to him as a novelist with a new vein. He was the laurate of fox-hunting..." During the Crimean War, he was a volunteer Major. He wrote novels until his death. "By a strange accident he met his death in the hunting field... the hero of many a stiff ride meeting his fate in galloping quietly over an ordinary ploughed field in the Vale of the White Horse. "He exerted a considerable and a wholesome influence on the manners and morals of the gilded youth of his time." This is the authentic John Peel.

---

16 Jun 01 - 06:48 PM (#485149)
Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: John J at home

If you visit the Salutation Inn, in Threlkeld, near Keswick, Cumbria (that's in England you know), they may be able to provide information 'from the ground'. There is a picture on the side of the pub of John Peel (I'm pretty sure, but wise to check before travelling) on foot, leading the Blencathra foxhounds. Wonderful picture, good beer, good food at sensible prices...in fact a proper pub without plastic. They do occassionally have piped music, but it's often traditional English.

John

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17 Jun 01 - 03:35 PM (#485549)
Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: GUEST,Jack The Lad

Ian C, pavane, his a-se was corrugated in my school- otherwise much the same constitution.

.......and he's lying on the grass, with a bullet up his a-se, and he's trying to get it out with a corkscrew.

---

17 Jun 01 - 05:53 PM (#485609)
Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: GUEST,On the hop

John Peel was the leader of the calderbeck hunt in Cumbria.He was known for being a down to earth working class chap and having no time for the pomp and cermony normaly associated with fox hunts.This is high lighted in the song hence his coat is 'hodden gray' not the usual red huntsmans jacket.He was also reputed to be very ugly !The songs 'John Peel' and 'The Horn of the Hunter' are just two of a huge number of Fox Hunting songs from Cumbria were such hunts and Cock fighting were huge local pastimes.

---

18 Jun 01 - 06:51 PM (#486466)
Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: Susanne (skw)

Maybe I didn't pay enough attention, but somehow it still escapes me how George John Whyte-Melville came to be called John Peel in the song. Was it his pen-name, or nickname, or what? I gather both authorship and the fact that it was written in honour of Whyte-Melville are proven, so why 'John Peel'?

---

21 Jun 01 - 08:21 AM (#488668)
Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: GUEST,[e-mail]

All It is good to see that John peel can keep a forum running for two years, For those interested, my ancestors married his sister and his granddaughter, The Mattinsons of Caldbeck.

I can also confirm that the song and tune is the anthem of the Border Regiment in Cumbria, in which I served.

---

21 Jun 01 - 09:29 AM (#488716)
Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: GUEST,Rana

Found these references to pages on John Peel - a cursory glance seems to suggest they are quite comprehensive.

Rana

John Peel - the man, the song

I got above from this page (which even references Mudcat

Another John Peel Page

Sorry if someone else has also referenced them - just quickly glanced at the thread

---

21 Jun 01 - 07:56 PM (#489300)
Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: Susanne (skw)

Many thanks, Rana. Both links look rather interesting, though the second one gives the words as 'with his coat so gay'. Have only dipped in, though.

---

21 Jun 01 - 07:59 PM (#489304)
Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: Shields Folk

Its also the song of Carlisle United fans.

---

21 Jun 01 - 08:15 PM (#489317)
Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: Malcolm Douglas

Thanks for the links.  At the moment I'm assuming that the reference to Whyte-Melville is an irrelevant distraction quoted from somebody who didn't know what they were talking about -I think that Anne Gilchrist would have mentioned it if it had any basis in fact- but I may be completely wrong; can anybody confirm that, one way or the other?

Malcolm

---

21 Jun 01 - 09:52 PM (#489363)
Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: GUEST,Dicho

Thanks, Rana, for the link to the real origin of John Peel. I followed up on the story in "The American Song Treasury" which puts John Peel in Whyte-Melville's clothes and is surely wrong. Probably the popularity of Whyte-Melville novels about sporting led to the mistake.

---

21 Jun 01 - 10:04 PM (#489369)
Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: Malcolm Douglas

Thanks for confirming that, Dicho.  Let's hope that's another myth securely laid to rest!

---

02 Dec 01 - 03:46 PM (#602253)
Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: GUEST

John Peel is not White Mellvile , Peel never travelled much further than Gretna Green and white never got to Cumberland > the Blencathra Foxhounds were formed long after Peels death as John Crozier purchased two hounds a dog called Briton and a bitch called Cruel and they hunted with the Threlkeld Hounds which in 1870 were renamed the Blencathra . the pictures outside the Salutation inn are of Johnny Richardson (huntsman 1949-1988) and Barry Todhunter (whipper in 1973- 1988 and huntsman 1988 to present)

---

18 Dec 01 - 02:03 AM (#612194)
Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: GUEST,[e-mail]

I have enjoyed reading about john peel. I have 35 wedgewood dishes that have the hunt scene on the front, john peel 1829, and picture on the back. now i know the song to go with it

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28 Feb 02 - 07:54 PM (#660314)
Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: GUEST,Mark Campbell

I just stumbled on this thread after discovering the Peel Pepsi link on "Recording/Broadcasting technology time line".

I headed for Mudcat to investigate.

My band Tursacan may do an "amalgam" version of John Peel, its precursors and offshoots. To a compound time signature or two of course (not to mention as much Gaelic and Welsh as we can cobble together from the linked songs).

I can feel the "purists" and the ethnomusicologist dryreaching from here. So be it!

---

28 Feb 02 - 08:14 PM (#660329)
Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)

The song should be a good one to have fun with. It used to be sung by grade school kids so everybody knew it and most of us had heard parodies. (But that was was a long time ago- do they still sing it?) This was in the States and I presume that it was even more popular in the British Isles. It should be easy to get the audience involved.

---

28 Feb 02 - 09:05 PM (#660364)
Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: Jon Freeman

What is this Red House at JCs? Is this the one Malcolm reffered to above. It sounds pretty much like a minor version of Ty Coch to me. Not doing too well with hearing a John Peel connection at the moment though.

Jon

---

28 Feb 02 - 09:14 PM (#660369)
Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: Malcolm Douglas

Say, rather, that Ty Coch is a later, major key version of Red House. Since this has surfaced again, I'll post tunes for comparison later on if I have time.

---

28 Feb 02 - 09:37 PM (#660378)
Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: GUEST,Mark

Yes please Malcom Douglas

---

01 Mar 02 - 06:34 AM (#660501)
Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: Malcolm Douglas

The following midis are made from the notation given in Anne G. Gilchrist's article, The Evolution of a Tune: "Red House" and "John Peel" (Journal of the English Folk Dance and Song Society, vol.IV, no.2, 1941).

1. Red House  -from Playford's Dancing Master (1706).  The tune first appeared in the edition of 1695 in a slightly different form.

2. Where Will Our Goodman Laye  -from Oswald's Caledonian Pocket Companion for the Flute, vol.II, c.1750.

3. Tycoch Caerdydd (The Red House of Cardiff)  -from Alawon Fy Ngwlad, c.1896.  Described as a pib-ddawns (pipe-dance).

4. John Peel  -W. Metcalfe's version, 1868.  This is referred to in more detail above; bear in mind that the tune usually used nowadays is just the third part (refrain) of the original.

---

02 Mar 02 - 06:19 AM (#661222)
Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: Jon Freeman

Thanks Malcolm.

I see the 3rd part of Ty Coch has been shifted a bit in the way I learned it. The difference is slight but in "yours", the 1st beat of the bar falls on the first of the 3 crotchets and in "mine" falls on the quaver, drifiting further away from John Peel I guess.

Jon

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15 Sep 02 - 06:39 AM (#784270)
Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: GUEST,ray

i would like to let you know when i emigrated from manchester to australia in 1974 i brought with me a john peel door knocker which still hangs on my front door. it depicts john peel astride his horseblowing his horn with is dog at the horses feet. p.s. it is made of brass.

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16 Sep 02 - 06:46 AM (#784963)
Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: Orac

Robert Peel's home was at Drayton Manor near Tamworth which is now the Funfair "Drayton Manor Park". There is an exhibition there regarding the Peel family and esp. Robert Peel. I don't think there is any family connection to John Peel in the song.

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19 Sep 02 - 03:19 PM (#787633)
Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: GUEST

john peel is from cumbria ,robert was a southner. john never ventured much outside north cumbria and southern scotland try this site for mor info http://www.stevebulman.f9.co.uk/cumbria/john_peel_f.html

---

21 Oct 02 - 03:47 PM (#808026)
Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: GUEST

to clear it up once and for all

goto#
http://www.blencathrafoxhounds.com/john_peel.htm

---

23 Oct 02 - 08:15 PM (#809717)
Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: Mr Happy

d' ye john ken peel?

---

24 Oct 02 - 05:39 AM (#809935)
Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: Mr Happy

Do ye ken John- Pel?

---

02 May 03 - 08:15 AM (#944796)
Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: GUEST,Simon Sweeney

My farther-in-law has an authentic hip-flask which once belonged to John Peel.

It has an insignia engraved on the base.

He wishes to sell this and is open to offers.

replies to : [e-mail]

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14 Sep 03 - 07:23 AM (#1018543)
Subject: RE: Origins: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: GUEST,[e-mail]

Dear Sir/Madam

I need to know the names of all the hounds of John Peel, especially any whose names are '-e-e'I am stuck trying a crossword, any help please reply asp, my postal dates are very limited

Thank you for any help offered

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14 Sep 03 - 08:42 AM (#1018556)
Subject: RE: Origins: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: greg stephens

Maybe thqat second e is wrong, I'll bet it's True.

---

14 Sep 03 - 11:22 AM (#1018611)
Subject: RE: Origins: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle

You have several posibilities....from two diffrent songs....however, it will messup some of your other expected words....unless you use "colloquial/dialect spellings"

Do ye ken John Peel
And we'll tell them of Ranter and Royal,
Of Britain and Melody too,
How they rattled a fox round the Carrock
And drove him from scent into view.

Horn of the Hunter
Yes, I ken John Peel and auld Ruby, too
Ranter and Royal and Bellman so true
From the drag to the chase, from the chase to the view
From the view to the death in the morning

HAVE FUN!

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

---

14 Sep 03 - 12:17 PM (#1018642)
Subject: RE: Origins: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: greg stephens

Gargoyle: I know there's no such thing as a "right" version of a folk song, but the way we sing John Peel in the Lake Disrict is

"Ranter and Ringwood
Bellman and True"

which explains my posting suggesting that "true" might conceivably be the answer if one of the e's is wrong.

---

14 Sep 03 - 02:08 PM (#1018702)
Subject: RE: Origins: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: GUEST,[e-mail]

Well, you got that wrong, 28 across has only four letters, ?r?e, ergo it must be 'True'!!
Perhaps it was a little too early in the morning!!

Cheers JJ

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15 Sep 03 - 10:48 AM (#1019201)
Subject: RE: Origins: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: The Fooles Troupe

Queensland folklore...

Do ye ken John Peel?

was taught in Primary schools in the 1950's as part of the "music Education" stuff... only other song I can remember is...

ahh, "hole in head syndrome" again...

the song about the convicts coming to australia in chains...
which apparently was composed for a musical in the 1800's

last verse was
oh had I the wings of a turtledove,
I'd soar on my pinions so high
straight to the arms of my polly love,
and in her sweet arms I would die.

Ch
Singing, Too - ral i oo ral i addity, etc...
...
and we're bound for botany bay.

mustn't have learnt it so well ... :-)

Robin

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24 Jul 05 - 11:35 AM (#1527030)
Subject: RE: Origins: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: GUEST,[e-mail]

while my grandmother was researching our family tree she discovered that john peel is my great x6 grandfather!!! what a discovery!! i thought this might interest you all in some way! p.s this is no joke. i am kirsty tearney from england/newcastle and im 14 years of age. i am proud to find out that john peel is my relation! :)

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24 Jul 05 - 01:08 PM (#1527081)
Subject: RE: Origins: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Thanks, Kirsty. John Peel lives on!

---

24 Jul 05 - 02:26 PM (#1527143)
Subject: RE: Origins: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: Le Scaramouche

There is a fabulous recording of Arthur(?) Moscrop performing John Peel along with improvised hunting horn sound.

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05 Apr 06 - 10:26 AM (#1711091)
Subject: Do ye ken John Peel recording
From: cambo

I remember being made to learn this song at school, mid fifties and hated it at he time, however grown to like it now.
Can anyone tell me where I can get a copy of the sung version.

Cambo

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06 Apr 06 - 06:06 PM (#1712201)
Subject: RE: Origins: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: Susanne (skw)

The only recording I know of is an old one by The Spinners, on 'Folk at the Phil' (1964). If nobody else sings it over the phone to you I might send you a tape.

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06 Apr 06 - 08:00 PM (#1712267)
Subject: RE: Origins: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: Barry Finn

My daughter just called & sang me a hunting song.

"If you're happy & you know it,,,,shoot a duck".

Barry

---

10 Aug 06 - 06:01 AM (#1806030)
Subject: RE: Origins: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: GUEST,Elizabeth

D'ye ken John Peel was written by John Woodcock Graves. I know this because I am related to him. He was born in 1795 and died in Hobart in 1886. When he came to Australia he was granted alot of land in Bruny Island. He got married twice and came to Australia with his six children. I am unaware if there are any "Graves" left in the family today. There was a memorial service held for him there around the 1950's. I'd like to know where I could get a copy of the song, otherewise I'll have to record it on the piano. If you googlesearch "John Woodcock Graves" you will find a heap of information on him.

---

10 Aug 06 - 06:04 AM (#1806032)
Subject: RE: Origins: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: GUEST,Elizabeth

Kirsty,

I just noticed that you are related to John Peel!! Is'nt that cool? I'm related to John Woodcock Graves - the man who wrote the song about John Peel.

---

22 Sep 06 - 11:32 PM (#1841280)
Subject: RE: Origins: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: GUEST,Jim in Tucson, Arizona, USA

Was it the truth, or was it just one of my dreams, that "John Peel" was the BBC "General Overseas Service" signature tune (pre-time signal) in the 1948-49 period?

Any help welcomed.

Jim

---

04 Feb 07 - 10:42 AM (#1957464)
Subject: RE: Origins: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: GUEST,Sue Allan

Sorry can't help you Jim, but I must say reading this complete thread has helped me waste most of a Sunday afternoon. Glad to see there were plenty of people talking sense as well as those who weren't: honorable mention to Malcolm Douglas, Greg Stephens and the person putting everyone right about the Blencathra hunt.

Keith Gregson wrote about the evolution of the song D'ye ken John Peel in 'English Dance & Song' magazine in 1978, focusing particularly on the evolution of the tune - with examples.

I have also written an article on the origins and evolution of the song for a more general audience, with lots of pictures and rather more of a focus on the PEOPLE involved. It will be in the next issue of 'Yesterday' magazine, published by CN Magazines in Cumbria - the history and heritage-led sister magazine of 'Cumbria Life' magazine. This will be out in a couple of weeks time. Here's a link: www.cumbrialife.co.uk/Yesterday/ - but details won't be up there until end Feb.

When I was in the Ellen Valley Band we did medley of three of the versions of the tune: Bonnie Annie/Metcalfe's version of it/National Song Book version (which everyone knows today) on our first album.

Like thousands of other Cumbrians - and Mudcatters - I am also related to Peel: he was my 5xgreat uncle. However, my great grandmother used to say that she didn't know why everyone made such a fuss about John Peel as he was 'nobbut a ne'er-do-well and an owld drunkard'!

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04 Feb 07 - 11:45 AM (#1957494)
Subject: RE: Origins: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: greg stephens

If you can locate Sue Allan's article, do so. There's not much about this of thing that Sue doesn't know.
    And, good as the Ellen Valley Band tune medley is, might I also diffidently mention an early(Metcalfe-ish) version of this tune, on the recently reissued record "The Neggar Boy of the North (Greg Stephens and Crookfinger Jack). This is a CD(Harbourtown HARCD051) version of the 70's LP. Incidentally, it contains a rather fetching youthful portrait of the present writer.

---

04 Feb 07 - 11:55 AM (#1957501)
Subject: RE: Origins: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: GUEST,Sue Allan

Greg - your typing's appalling!! (and almost racist here!!!) Please note his album is called Beggar Boy of the North - and it's MUCH better than the Ellen Valley Band one! ( but I'm the only one allowed to say that)

Sue

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18 Jun 07 - 12:03 AM (#2079652)
Subject: RE: Origins: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: GUEST,Marij Sak

Since this tale of the railings of St. David's Park seems to be spreading may I put it straight! The bars and musical staves are actually on a monument to John Woodcock Graves which was erected in St. David's Park in 1958.
(click)

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18 Jun 07 - 04:42 PM (#2080266)
Subject: RE: Origins: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego

I learned this little ditty in the fifth grade, which would have been in 1950. It was in a standard school songbook at the time. We were told that "John Peel" was the sobriquet of the huntsman with his hounds, leading the gentry on a fox hunt. The chorus was approximately as follows:

"D'ye ken John Peel at the break of day?
D'ye ken John Peel with his coat so gay?
D'ye ken John Peel, when he's far, far away,
With his hounds and his horse in the morning."

More, I cannot verify. The use of the word "ken" certainly leads toward the likely Scots origin.

---

18 Jun 07 - 05:18 PM (#2080307)
Subject: RE: Origins: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: GUEST

John Peel was a yeoman farmer in the north of the Lake District in Cumbria (he lived at Ruththwaite, near Ireby, and is buried at Caldbeck), and he never 'led the gentry' - he ran a pack of fell hounds. Their descendants are hounds of the Blencathra Hunt, who still do their hunting on foot in the fells, as John Peel did most of the time. His coat was not 'gay', it was gray - being made of the wool of the local Herdwick sheep. 'Ken' is Cumbrian as well as Scottish, and mean 'know'. Oh, and he was also my great-great-great-great-great uncle.

---

18 Jun 07 - 05:21 PM (#2080308)
Subject: RE: Origins: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: GUEST,Sue Allan

Oops sorry, didn't mean to make that last post anonymous, I was over-keen to correct mistakes and misapprehensions about John Peel!

---

18 Jun 07 - 05:27 PM (#2080312)
Subject: RE: Origins: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego

Thank you for that clarification. Too bad I had to wait 57 years to find out that our songbook authors were ill-informed. If I didn't suspect research sloppiness, I could write it off to clerical error. However, knowing our public schools...........

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19 Jun 07 - 07:27 AM (#2080891)
Subject: RE: Origins: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: GUEST,Young Buchan

Snuffy: That song, or a close version of it, was collected by Alfred Williams in the Oxfordshire area probably before the First World War, and was published in Folk Songs of the Upper Thames in 1922. His informant referred to it as the OLD John Peel.

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19 Jun 07 - 07:50 AM (#2080909)
Subject: RE: Origins: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: Mr Red

FWIW Green coats and Pink coats were usually red

because Mr Pink and Mr Green were rival tailors to the hunting oi paloi.

And Sir Robert Peel is buried (he and the other Robert Peels that are descended from him) in Drayton Bassett churchyard about 100 yards from my cousin's house.
He owned the estate that is now (what is left of it) the Drayton Manor Park funfair type pleasure ground.

---

19 Jun 07 - 09:25 AM (#2080987)
Subject: RE: Origins: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: Snuffy

Thanks YB. You can always rely on Mudcat for an answer, even if it did take six years!

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19 Jun 07 - 11:24 AM (#2081109)
Subject: RE: Origins: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: GUEST

To Mr Red: I repeat that John Peel's coat was grey, made of Herdwick wool ... he was never one of the gentry. The Cumbrian fell packs hunted on foot over the fells (still do, but after aniseed trails these days) and are nothing like mounted hunts in the rest of England, not being made up of the aristos, gentry, monied classes etc.
Oh, and John Peel was not related to Sir Robert Peel.

---

Please note that anonymous posting is no longer allowed at Mudcat. Use a consistent name [in the 'from' box] when you post, or your messages risk being deleted.
Thanks.
-Joe Offer-

---

19 Jun 07 - 11:25 AM (#2081114)
Subject: RE: Origins: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: GUEST,Sue Allan

Sorry, forgot to sign my name again. And I am related to John Peel.

---

19 Jun 07 - 01:54 PM (#2081282)
Subject: RE: Origins: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: GUEST,meself

Good to have you in the thread, Sue Allan. (Don't worry; some people are reading what you're contributing!).

---

19 Jun 07 - 02:23 PM (#2081301)
Subject: RE: Origins: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: greg stephens

Hunting in the actual lake district (the mountainous area in Cumbria to the west of the Lune and Eden valleys) was(sic) carried out on foot. But north of Skiddaw (or back'o'Skidda as he would doubtless have said) it was not quite the same. I think you will find that Peel hunted a great deal on horseback.

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19 Jun 07 - 05:23 PM (#2081447)
Subject: RE: Origins: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: GUEST,Sue Allan

You're right Greg: I was over-egging the pudding in the interests of getting over the point that the fell packs are not your 'gentrified' Southern type of hunt!

Peel's hunting territory was in fact much wider than that of the current six fell packs, and although the Blencathra Foxhounds traditionally declare their hounds to be the descendents of Peel's hounds and they are 'the John Peel pack' - and they hunt on foot - they don't cover anywhere near the same ground and go the distances that Peel would have done. His territory extended to that included in today's mounted packs - the Cumberland and the Cumberland Farmers hunts.

John Peel and his cronies would have been on foot when they needed to, on the higher fells, and on horses (Peel's was called Dunny) to cover the ground in the pasture lands below the fells and heading out over the Solway Plain. The horses would have been sturdy, a little bigger than fell ponies - and faster - but not as big as those used by mounted packs today.

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28 Jul 07 - 01:32 AM (#2113123)
Subject: RE: Origins: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: GUEST,f0xldy

Hey group...wow! what a great collection of info I have found from all of y'all. yes, Im from the South (Virginia) in USA! I was researching hunting songs, of coures John Peel is one and I have found much more info here. Where on the net might I also find anyone actually singing some of these great songs? There really should be a collection of them so we "newbies" can learn to sing along while toasting one (or 2) in the name of the sport! My grandfather hunted fox on foot so John Peel holds a gentle spot in my heart! In recap, Ive learned of hunting songs (besides John Peel)of:
"The Horn of the Hunter", "Joe Bowman", "Bellman","The Marndale Hunt","The Six Fell Packs" as well as "Boots and Saddles" and "A-Hunting We Will Go" from other sources. Can anyone add to this or correct these titles if Ive errored on them? Haven't seen mention of it anywhere on Mudcat, but there is a book on the life of John Peel entitled: "John Peel, Famous in Sport and Song" by Hugh Machell. I just found my copy on ebay but havent read it yet. Thanks for any more help with extra song titles and I'll look forward to checking back for MORE! Tally ho...

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22 Jan 08 - 10:37 AM (#2241975)
Subject: Tune Add: John Peel: Variations?
From: Mr Happy

Click where it says 'midi' to hear this unique rendition!

http://jc.tzo.net/~jc/cgi/abc/tuneget?F=MIDI&U=/~jc/music/abc/mirror/kirby98.fsnet.co.uk/jo/John_Peel_Variations_1.abc&X=1&T=JOH

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22 Jan 08 - 11:03 AM (#2241999)
Subject: RE: Tune Add: John Peel: Variations?
From: GUEST,PMB

Did you ever hear any of the Michael Coleman (Sligo fiddler) original recordings? Brilliant fiddle, with an absolute atrocity of a piano in the background. The only reason they finished together was because the track ran out. I think it could be the same pianist (pronounced however you like).

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22 Jan 08 - 11:08 AM (#2242006)
Subject: RE: Tune Add: John Peel: Variations?
From: GUEST,PMB

Michael Coleman with phase- shifting piano playing Trim the Velvet.

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06 May 08 - 11:28 AM (#2334079)
Subject: RE: Origins: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: GUEST, Sminky

I have just picked up a copy of 'Round Carlisle Cross' by James Walter Brown, (this edition was published in 1951, 21 years after the author's death).

There is a chapter devoted to William Metcalfe which includes the following passage:

[quote]
it was through his association with the hunting song, "John Peel", that Metcalfe's name will be longest remembered, and it now remains to relate how that arose. About this I claim to speak with authority, for I was on terms of intimate friendship with those concerned in the matter, and often discussed it with them.

Up till 1868 the song, as I have said, was sung to the notes of the present refrain. In June of that year my old friend John Clarkson, who was one of that group of clever amateur entertainers whom I have already mentioned, was, on the point of his leaving Carlisle, entertained to a farewell dinner. On that occasion the late Mr.William Lattimer, younger brother of the better known Robert Lattimer, sang John Woodcock Grave's song ,"D'ye ken John Peel". Metcalfe was at once struck by its adaptability as a capital hunting song. Later he went to Mr.Lattimer's residence, at Holme Head, and took down the music from Mr.Lattimer's singing. He then, after considerable research, found the music of the Scotch "rant" "Bonnie Annie" which was in Grave's mind when he wrote the song, and from that air Metcalfe composed the tune as it now exists.
[end quote]

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27 Mar 09 - 12:34 AM (#2598304)
Subject: Lyr Add: D'YE KEN JOHN PEEL? (John Woodcock Graves
From: Jim Dixon

From The Songs and Ballads of Cumberland edited by Sidney Gilpin (London: Geo. Routledge and Sons, 1866):

JOHN WOODCOCK GRAVES.
AN AUTOBIOGRAPHICAL FRAGMENT.

...Nearly forty years have now wasted away since John Peel and I sat in a snug parlour at Caldbeck among the Cumbrian mountains. We were then both in the hey-day of manhood, and hunters of the olden fashion; meeting the night before to arrange earth stopping; and in the morning to take the best part of the hunt—the drag over the mountains in the mist—while fashionable hunters still lay in the blankets. Large flakes of snow fell that evening. We sat by the fireside hunting over again many a good run, and recalling the feats of each particular hound, or narrow neck-break 'scapes, when a flaxen-haired daughter of mine came in saying, "Father, what do they say to what granny sings?" Granny was singing to sleep my eldest son—now a leading barrister in Hobart Town—with a very old rant called Bonnie (or Cannie) Annie. The pen and ink for hunting appointments being on the table, the idea of writing a song to this old air forced itself upon me, and thus was produced, impromptu, D'ye ken John Peel with his coat so gray. Immediately after I sung it to poor Peel who smiled through a stream of tears which fell down his manly cheeks; and I well remember saying to him in a joking style, "By Jove, Peel, you'll be sung when we're both run to earth."

As to John Peel's general character I can say little. He was of a very limited education beyond hunting. But no wile of a fox or hare could evade his scrutiny; and business of any shape was utterly neglected, often to cost far beyond the first loss. Indeed this neglect extended to the paternal duties in his family. I believe he would not have left the drag of a fox on the impending death of a child, or any other earthly event. An excellent rider, I saw him once on a moor put up a fresh hare and ride till he caught her with his whip. You may know that he was six feet and more, and of a form and gait quite surprising, but his face and head somewhat insignificant. A clever sculptor told me that he once followed, admiring him, a whole market day before he discovered who he was....

Peel was generous as every true sportsman ever must be. He was free with the glass "at the heel of the hunt;" but a better heart never throbbed in man. His honour was never once questioned in his life-time. In the latter part of his life his estate was embarrassed, but the right sort in all Cumberland called a meet some years since, and before parting they sang John Peel in full chorus, closing by presenting him with a handsome gratuity which empowered him to shake off his encumbrances, and die with a "hark tally-ho!"

SONGS BY JOHN WOODCOCK GRAVES.

D'YE KEN JOHN PEEL?

[AIR: "Bonnie (or Cannie) Annie."—The history of this celebrated hunting song is very curious, as will be seen by reference to the interesting autobiographical sketch of its author. Thirty years since no person could walk through the streets of Carlisle, without hearing some one or other either whistling the air, or singing the song. Since then its popularity has spread far and wide. It has been chanted wherever English hunters have penetrated in the world. It was heard in the soldiers' camps at the siege of Lucknow, and was lately sung before the Prince of Wales. Stray copies, and generally imperfect ones, have got into the newspapers; but it now appears for the first time in a general collection. The hunt is supposed to commence at Low Denton-holme, near Caldbeck—thence across a rugged stretch of country in a south-easterly direction—and bold reynard is finally run into on the heights of Scratchmere Scar, near Lazonby.—The old rant of "Bonnie Annie" is obsolete.]

D'YE ken John Peel with his coat so gray?
D'ye ken John Peel at the break of the day?
D'ye ken John Peel when he's far, far away,
With his hounds and his horn in the morning?

[CHORUS] 'Twas the sound of his horn call'd me from my bed,
And the cry of his hounds has me oft-times led;
For Peel's view holloa would 'waken the dead,
Or a fox from his lair in the morning.

D'ye ken that bitch whose tongue is death?
D'ye ken her sons of peerless faith?
D'ye ken that a fox with his last breath
Curs'd them all as he died in the morning?

'Twas the sound of his horn, &c.

Yes, I ken John Peel and auld Ruby, too,
Ranter and Royal and Bellman as true;*
From the drag to the chase, from the chase to the view,
From the view to the death in the morning.

'Twas the sound of his horn, &c.

And I've follow'd John Peel both often and far,
O'er the rasper-fence and the gate and the bar,
From Low Denton-holme up to Scratchmere Scar,
When we vied for the brush in the morning.

'Twas the sound of his horn, &c.

Then, here's to John Peel with my heart and soul,
Come fill—fill to him another strong bowl:
And we'll follow John Peel thro' fair and thro' foul
While we're wak'd by his horn in the morning.

'Twas the sound of his horn, &c.

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* These were the real names of the hounds which Peel in his old age said were the very best he ever had or saw. —J. W. G.

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27 Jul 09 - 10:50 AM (#2687996)
Subject: RE: Origins: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: GUEST,Rebecca

Hi
I am a 'lateral descendant' of John Peel. (I am descended from his niece Nancy Peel, who married a Todhunter). I read this site with interest. There is a decent book about the Lake District which has a chapter dedicated to Peel, I must dig it out so I can put the title on here.
I can confirm though that he did at times hunt on horseback, and his pony was called Dunny, and stood at 14hh. He would often leave Dunny for hours at a time when the terrain was too rough for the ponies to continue; and Dunny would wait patiently for his master to return. My ancestor Nancy was brought up by Peel as one of his own, and she used to hunt with him regualarly wearing a green tweed habit and rode a grey pony.
The book I mention also mentions the tale about him catching a hare single handed with a whip.
He also left the house early one morning when they were due to bury one of his sons. Naturally his family were aghast, but Peel had brought back a fox's brush, which he thought a fitting trophy for his boy's last journey.
He also was determined to attend the horse fair at Rosley while his wife was in labour with twin girls!!!
Quite the character, and I get the impression he liked a drink and was 'loud and lairy', but I think behind it all he only meant well.
Rebecca

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27 Jul 09 - 11:42 AM (#2688025)
Subject: RE: Origins: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: Tug the Cox

I remeber seeing an old black and white 'biopic' of John Peel.



   The tune is used for
'cats on the rooftops,
   cats on the tiles,
   cats with the clap and cats with piles ( etc.)

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27 Jul 09 - 11:52 AM (#2688036)
Subject: RE: Origins: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: Uncle_DaveO

The Pepsi jingle is solid in my memory, from childhood, and I have it as being slightly different from what Farrara and Bill D. posted.

It went:

Pepsi-Cola hits the spot
Twelve full ounces, that's a lot
Twice as much for nickel too       (Comment: Remember nickel soft drinks?
Pepsi-Cola is the drink for you!
RAH-duh-dah-dah
DAH-duh-dah-dah
DAH-dahhh-duh-DOT!

Dave Oesterreich

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27 Jul 09 - 12:08 PM (#2688054)
Subject: RE: Origins: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: Tug the Cox

D'YE KEN JOHN PEEL?
Film Information
        
Titles         D'YE KEN JOHN PEEL?
CAPTAIN MOONLIGHT
Main Director         HENRY EDWARDS
Year         1935
Length         81 Minutes
Countries         United Kingdom
Genre         Drama
Series         
Actors         JOHN GARRICK
WINIFRED SHOTTER
STANLEY HOLLOWAY
JOHN STUART
MARY LAWSON
LESLIE PERRINS
MORRIS HARVEY
CHARLES CARSON
WILFRED CAITHNESS
Directors         HENRY EDWARDS
Director Of Photography         SYDNEY BLYTHE

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27 Jul 09 - 04:41 PM (#2688288)
Subject: RE: Origins: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: Sue Allan

Hi Guest Rebecca - why don't you PM me... we must be related! John Peel was my great, great, great, great, great uncle. My grandmother was a Peel. Her mother apparently always used to complain "Ah divvent knaw why they aal gan on aboot John Peel - he was nobbut an auld drunkard!"
I've also written an article and academic paper about him and can email if you let me know your address.

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23 Sep 09 - 08:30 AM (#2729527)
Subject: RE: Origins: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: GUEST,Rebecca Sim

Hi Sue, are you on facebook?
I'm on there under Rebecca Elizabeth Sim if you want to look me up, I'm not a member on here and can't work out how to PM you, LOL.
Plus I don't really want to post my email on here, I'm sure you understand.....
I am descended from John Peel's sister Lettice Peel.

Thanks,
Rebecca.

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23 Sep 09 - 11:08 AM (#2729623)
Subject: RE: Origins: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: GUEST,Rebecca Sim

Oh Sue, John was my Great, Great, Great, Great Uncle LOL

Rebecca.

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23 Sep 09 - 02:41 PM (#2729804)
Subject: RE: Origins: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: Paul Davenport

Just to add a little confusion to this thread, here's a version noted down in a manuscript notebook in the possession of a friend of mine. She produced this book the other day as we were having tea. I nearly fell of my chair to see this;

JOHN PEEL

Did ye ken John Peel with his hair so grey
He lived at Troutbeck once on a day
But now he has gone, far, far away
We shall ne'er see his like in the morning

        For the sound of his horn brings me from my bed
        And the cry of his pack he has often led
        John Peel's view holloa will awake the dead
        And the fox from his lair in the morning

Yes, I ken John Peel with his hair so grey
He lived at Troutbeck once on a day
But now he has gone, far, far away
We shall ne'er see his like in the morning

Did ye ken that hound whose voice is death
Did ye ken her sons of equal birth
How oft has the fox with his latest breath
Cursed those hounds as he died in the morning

Yes I ken that hound whose voice was true
Ratlin, Reefer and Belmont too
From a find to a chase, from a chase to a view
From a view to a kill in the morning

Yes I ken John Peel with his coat so red
But now both himself and his hounds are fled
All, all far away, far away have sped
We shall ne'er see his like in the morning

Then here's to John Peel with my heart and soul
Fill up, fill up another bowl
We'll follow John Peel through fair and through foul
When we're wanting a hunt in the morning

From the ms. Notebook of Mary Beresford Sherbrooke of Oxton Notts.
Who died in 1887 aged 78 years.

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24 Sep 09 - 07:37 AM (#2730311)
Subject: RE: Origins: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: GUEST,Rebecca Sim

Hi Paul

I have just been doing some more reading up on John Peel, and various versions of the song. I believe it became quite popular with cockneys at one point, of course many of them would not be familiar with John Peel, or the Lake District; in fact some of them thought he was a myth! Anyway, in the cockney version I saw it used 'Troutbeck' and 'once a day' in it.....maybe you have uncovered a manuscript of the version cockney's used to sing???

Rebecca

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15 Oct 09 - 05:23 PM (#2746939)
Subject: RE: Origins: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: GUEST,roberta

robert peels family was originally from peel fold in bolton, north west england. i'm also meant to be related to john peel, though my grandfather, not found any details yet, may just be a family story but i have got back to the Lees of Kendal eary 1800 so far.

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15 Oct 09 - 06:30 PM (#2747034)
Subject: RE: Origins: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: Sue Allan

Oops, link didn't work - here it is again:
Song Hunters and Foxhunters: John Peel and Cumbrian Identity

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18 Oct 09 - 05:13 PM (#2747470)
Subject: RE: Origins: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: Susanne (skw)

Still doesn't work for me! Could you write it out, please, Sue?

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19 Oct 09 - 12:13 PM (#2747987)
Subject: RE: Origins: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: Matthew Edwards

Here's another go at a link to Sue Allan's excellent article Song Hunters and Foxhunters: John Peel and Cumbrian Identity. The appendix gives the original Cumberland dialect version of the song as written by John Woodcock Graves which I find much more vigourous than the verision I learned at school.

Matthew Edwards

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22 Jun 11 - 11:30 AM (#3174556)
Subject: RE: Origins: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: GUEST,Robin Tell

Pardon me if I'm being thick, which is likely. People repeatedly note that the common tune now is that of only the refrain in Metcalfe's tune; but where is there any refrain in these lyrics?

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22 Jun 11 - 03:23 PM (#3174716)
Subject: RE: Origins: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: GUEST,kendall

When I was in 6th grade in school I had a teacher who was into folk music. John Peel was one of the songs she taught us.

One line I remember was...Do ye ken John Peel ......he lived at Trouthbeck once on a day, but now he's gone away far away we will na're hear his hounds in the morning.

Rachael Higgins, I will always remember and love you.

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03 Feb 12 - 08:55 PM (#3301802)
Subject: RE: Origins: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: GUEST,bob siecker 0414653209 australia

ive just discovered an old drawing of a boy on a horse and under the drawing it says DYE KEN JOHN PEEL?.............can anybody tell me about it

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03 Feb 12 - 11:29 PM (#3301853)
Subject: RE: Origins: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: Stilly River Sage

Read from the top, Guest Bob, and you'll find an answer.

SRS

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18 Jan 21 - 12:03 PM (#4088617)
Subject: RE: Origins: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: FreddyHeadey

Sue Allan talking about John Peel on this podcast, May 2020 followed by a recording of Micky Moscrop singing it in 1953.
https://www.countrystride.co.uk/single-post/countrystride-31-cumbrian-folk-music-and-the-back-o-skiddaw
> 31:00

___________
the rest of the podcast is worth a listen too!
"…in which we celebrate the folk music tradition of Cumbria on a virtual wander around the Back o’Skiddaw with local musician and academic Dr Sue Allan.
As we amble from Ireby to Caldbeck, over airy Aughtertree Fell and alongside the tumbling Howk, we discuss hunting songs, learn about notorious horseman (and drinker) John Peel, delve into the history of fairs, dances and merrymeets, and sample the dialect verse of Robert Anderson, the Bard of Cumberland."

music
@21minutes 'Keswick Bonnie Lasses' from Striding Edge
&
Greg Stephens' Boat Band playing 'My Love she’s but a Lassie’ @ ~46minutes

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18 Jan 21 - 03:19 PM (#4088648)
Subject: RE: Origins: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: Georgiansilver

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%27ye_ken_John_Peel_(song)

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19 Jan 21 - 03:05 AM (#4088720)
Subject: RE: Origins: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: GUEST,Observer

To answer a question raised earlier in the thread:

MarcB
Date: 26 Mar 98 - 02:26 PM

There is a display on John Peel in the Museum of the Border Regiment in Carlisle Castle in Carlisle, Cumbria, England. He hailed from that quarter though I can't remember what I read about his connection to the Borderers. I have made an inquiry regarding that connection and will pass it on to you all when I find out.

John Peel, the man, had no connection to the Border Regiment, the tune however to the song John Peel is the Regimental Quick March of the Border Regiment.

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