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Question on Green Grow the Rashes

24 Mar 00 - 05:44 AM (#200611)
Subject: RE: Gringo Pistolero
From: Bob Bolton

G'day relay(?), Bert &c,

A bit of thread creep from the antipodes: Does anyone have any evidence / refutation of the story I heard some years back that the Mexican expression Gringo arises from a (!folk)song, popular among the American troops in the earlier Mexican wars Green Grow the Rushes, O'? ... corrupted into ... "greengo"?

Regards,

Bob Bolton

24 Mar 00 - 10:30 AM (#200677)
Subject: RE: Gringo Pistolero
From: Bert

The way I heard it, it was "Green Grow the Lilacs". I suspect it may be a folk legend though.

Bert.

24 Mar 00 - 09:43 PM (#201062)
Subject: RE: Gringo Pistolero
From: Bob Bolton

G'day Bert,

I guess that the old principle that any explanation that depends on a story is suspect applies here, but a folksong myth is not amiss on Mudcat. At least the thread set me looking back at my copies of The Merry Muses of Caledonia and I note that the longer version of Green Grow the Rashes O (Burns' own words and something like the song I would have presumed sung by soldiers) seems not to be in the DT.

There are two versions quoted and the one posted in the DT is the first (A) and probably collected by Burns.

This is the second version (B):
From: The Merry Muses of Caledonia, Robert Burnes, ed. James Barke and Sydney Goodsir Smith, Panther Books Ltd, London, 1966. p107.

GREEN GROW THE RASHES (B)

From MMC, where it is ascribed to Burns by Scott Douglas in a, pencilled note. Burns wrote to George Thomson in April, I793: "At any rate, my other Song 'Green grow the Rashes' will never suit.-That Song is current in Scotld under the old title, & sung to the merry old tune of that name; which of course would mar the progress of your Song to celebrity" (DLF, L II, i62). See also Section i.

O wat ye ought o'fisher Meg'
And how she trow'd the webster, O,
She loot me see her carrot c-t,
And sell'd it for a labster, O.

Green grow the rashes, O,
Green grow the rashes, O,
The lassies they hae wimble-bores,
The widows they hae gashes, O.

Mistress Mary cow'd her thing,
Because she wad be gentle, O,
And span the fleece upon a rock,
To waft a Highland mantle, O.

An' heard ye o' the coat o' arms,
The Lyon brought our lady, O,
The crest was, couchant, sable c-t.
The motto - "ready, ready," O.

An' ken ye Leezie Lundie, O.
The godly Leezie Lundie, O,
She m-s like reek thro' a' the week,
But finger f-s on Sunday, O.

Regards,

Bob Bolton

22 Mar 02 - 10:45 AM (#674000)
Subject: Q on Green Grow the Rashes
From: Susan-Marie

One of the verses of one of the versions of Green Grow the Rashes O says "the wisest man the world e're saw dearly loved the lassies o"

To whom does that line refer?

22 Mar 02 - 10:49 AM (#674004)
Subject: RE: Q on Green Grow the Rashes
From: George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca

Could we see the rest of the verse?

There might be a clue there, or in the previous verse.

22 Mar 02 - 10:54 AM (#674006)
Subject: RE: Q on Green Grow the Rashes
From: GUEST,JTT

Green grow the *rushes*, unless you're in an STD clinic.

Jesus or Solomon, I'd guess - probably Solomon, with his 10,000 wives.

22 Mar 02 - 11:16 AM (#674013)
Subject: Lyr Add: GREEN GROW THE RASHES, O (Robert Burns)
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy

No, it's rashes, by Robbie Burns & in the DigiTrad 3rd version, I'd say it is Solomon he is referring to, who did reportedly have many wives, and was said to be wise for his judgement. Here are a couple of versions that might be added to the database.

GREEN GROW THE RASHES, O
(Robert Burns)

CHORUS: Green grow the rashes, O;
Green grow the rashes, O;
The sweetest hours that e'er I spend,
Are spent amang the lasses, O.

There's nought but care on ev'ry han',
In ev'ry hour that passes, O;
What signifies the life o' man,
An' 'twere na for the lasses, O. CHORUS

The warly race may riches chase,
An' riches still may fly them, O;
An' tho' at last they catch them fast,
Their hearts can ne'er enjoy them, O. CHORUS

But gie me a canny hour at e'en,
My arms about my Dearie, O;
An' warly cares an' warly men,
May a' gae tapsalteerie, O! CHORUS

For you sae douse, ye sneer at this,
Ye're nought but senseless asses, O;
The wisest Man the warl' saw,
He dearly lov'd the lasses, O. CHORUS

Auld Nature swears, the lovely Dears
Her noblest work she classes, O;
Her prentice han' she try'd on man,
An' then she made the lasses, O. CHORUS

Check out this site for English translation:
http://www.worldburnsclub.com/poems/translations/green_gro_the_rashes_o.htm

And here is a version that substitutes rushes for rashes:

CHORUS: Green grow the rushes-O,
Green grow the rushes-O,
The sweetest bed that e'er I got
Was the bellies of the lassies O.

In sober hours I am a priest,
A hero when I'm tipsy O,
But I'm a king and everything
When with a wanton gipsy O. CHORUS

We're all dry with drinking o't,
We're all dry with drinking o't,
The parson kissed the fiddler's wife
And he couldna preach for thinking o't. CHORUS

The down bed, the feather bed,
The bed among the rushes O,
Yet all the beds is not so soft
As the bellies of the lassies O. CHORUS

Green grow the rushes-O,
Green grow the rushes-O,
The sweetest bed that e'er I got
Was the bellies of the lassies O. CHORUS

HTML line breaks added. --JoeClone, 13-Oct-02.

22 Mar 02 - 11:25 AM (#674022)
Subject: RE: Q on Green Grow the Rashes
From: Scabby Douglas

I'd agree on the reference being to Solomon. In another Burns song - "The Bonniest Lass that Ye Meet Neist" He refers to Solomon having mistresses and concubines "in hundreds".

Cheers

Steven

22 Mar 02 - 11:26 AM (#674024)
Subject: RE: Q on Green Grow the Rashes
From: Susan-Marie

No, it's not the "rushes", that's a different song. And I doubt it's a skin disease because if it's green it would be a fungus, not a rash. But you're probably right about Solomon - thanks JTT.

Here is the verse - the entire song is in the DT (but you have to search for it; if you click on the title, you get a different song).

Give me a cannie hour at e'en
My arms around my dearie, o
The wisest man the world e'er saw
Dearly loved the lassies, o

The last verse is really cute:

Old nature swears the lovely dears
Her noblest works she classes, o
Her apprentice hand she tried on man
And then she made the lassies, o

Altan does a good version on Another Sky.

HTML line breaks added. --JoeClone, 13-Oct-02.

22 Mar 02 - 11:35 AM (#674033)
Subject: RE: Q on Green Grow the Rashes
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy

Yes, Susan-Marie, This IS a different song than the counting version, sung at Christmas, called 'Green Grow the Rushes O' & also in DT, but Burns' song is often referred to by the same title, though incorrectly perhaps. If enough people know it that way, sing it that way, it isn't wrong, it's the Folk Trad thing! Some would say that the phrase in the number song is 'borrowed' directly from Burns with this same 'mistake', singing English 'rushes' for Scots 'rashes', lovely song, though

22 Mar 02 - 12:01 PM (#674055)
Subject: RE: Q on Green Grow the Rashes
From: Paddy Plastique

Burns is wrong for once ! Sure the wisest man the world e'er saw was yer man Socrates - and he wasn't interested
in the lassies atall atall.... and I don't mean the 1982 Brazilian World Cup tormentor of Scotland who couldn't get his game
for UCD. :->

22 Mar 02 - 04:29 PM (#674268)
Subject: RE: Q on Green Grow the Rashes
From: McGrath of Harlow

Since he was a man with a fair opinion of himelf, (eg this autobiographical song) Burns might well have been referring to himself as well. But in the first place I imagine he'd have been meaning Solomon.

Compare The Limerick Rake with the verse

There's some say I'm foolish, there's more say I'm wise,
For love of the women I'm sure 'tis no crime;
For the son of King David had ten hundred wives
And his wisdom is highly recorded.

22 Mar 02 - 05:49 PM (#674331)
Subject: RE: Q on Green Grow the Rashes
From: ciarili

Guys, I think that line is rhetorical, and doesn't refer to any specific man!

ciarili

22 Mar 02 - 05:56 PM (#674338)
Subject: RE: Q on Green Grow the Rashes
From: GUEST

The less polite version of "Green grow the rashes, O" is here:

Click

22 Mar 02 - 05:56 PM (#674339)
Subject: RE: Q on Green Grow the Rashes
From: greg stephens

Solomon and David/ led very naughty lives/ Canoodling every other night/ with other people's wives/ Sometimes in the evening/ their conscience gave them qualms/ So Solomon wrote the Proverbs/ And David wrote the Psalms

22 Mar 02 - 06:44 PM (#674366)
Subject: RE: Q on Green Grow the Rashes
From: Joe_F

I think Burns was alluding to Solomon's preeminent wisdom as a tradition, not necessarily a historical fact. One should also recall that, in addition to all his wives & concubines, tradition (tho not modern scholarship) regards him as the author of the Song of Songs (shir hashirim asher liShlomo), which Burns, in another song, refers to as "the smuttiest sang that e'er was sung".

03 Jan 05 - 05:12 PM (#1370343)
Subject: RE: Q on Green Grow the Rashes
From: Joe Offer

Thread #77044   Message #1370332
Posted By: lynngryphon
03-Jan-05 - 04:47 PM
Thread Name: Green Grow The Rushes Oh, discrepency
Subject: Green Grow The Rushes Oh, discrepency

I hope I didn't overlook an existing thread on this topic but the search didn't find any that seemed to fit.

I'm listening to GGTR Oh, and I decided to look up the lyrics. But the lyrics I found here have to do with counting and what I'm listening to doesn't. The closest I found to what I'm listening to was on a different site and it was missing a stanza or two. Is this normal or is something up?

"Give me a quiet hour at en/ My arms around my dearie oh/ Worldy cares and worldly men/ May a gay topsy turvy ohh..."

Thats a stanza of what I'm listening too.

The above was posted in another thread. I couldn't find the lyrics Lynn is talking about here. Can anybody give full lyrics for Lynn's version? It seems to be and update of the Robert Burns Rushes (click) that's in the Digital Tradition.

03 Jan 05 - 05:36 PM (#1370366)
Subject: RE: Q on Green Grow the Rashes
From: Malcolm Douglas

It's just a mis-hearing: see 3rd verse in Bill Kennedy's post above.

03 Jan 05 - 06:20 PM (#1370420)
Subject: RE: Q on Green Grow the Rashes
From: Jeri

Or simply an anglicization. "May a' gae tapsalteerie" - "tapsalteerie" is a word I may never have come across if not for this song.

04 Jan 05 - 01:38 PM (#1371079)
Subject: RE: Q on Green Grow the Rashes
From: Pauline L

I agree with Ciarili. The reference is rhetorical.

05 Jan 05 - 01:01 PM (#1372191)
Subject: RE: Q on Green Grow the Rashes
From: woodsie

Gringo ?

21 Feb 07 - 09:12 PM (#1975574)
Subject: RE: Q on Green Grow the Rashes
From: GUEST,JTT

Robbie Burns lived a full life. He'd have known as much about rashes as rushes, I suspect.

21 Feb 07 - 09:54 PM (#1975603)
Subject: RE: Q on Green Grow the Rashes
From: GUEST,meself

"The wisest man" is undoubtedly Solomon. Anyone raised with a good dose of Judeo-Christian lore would make that identification immediately, without thinking twice - or once, for that matter - and any half-educated person of Burns' day WAS raised with a good dose of Judeo-Christian lore - Bible stories, in other words. That's why Burns does not need to be more specific.

It's as if he had written, "The babe born in a manger" - and a couple of hundred years later, people were arguing about who he possibly could have meant by that ...

04 Oct 10 - 05:09 PM (#2999599)
Subject: RE: Question on Green Grow the Rashes
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

"Green Grow the Rashes, O!" as collected by Burns, appears in an H. De Marsan NY song sheet, undated (1850s?), but with the title "Green Grow the Rushes, O!"

This is the earliest, even though questionably dated, version of the lyrics that I have found in American print.

The statement, never supported by dated citation that is was sung by troops in the Mexican War, seems dubious.

The note in the Traditional Ballad Index on "Green Grow the Rushes-O" has been revised from that reproduced in one of these threads.
A form of it appeared in Sandys (Carols), 1823, not 1833. The English versions seemingly had European antecedents.

04 Oct 10 - 06:23 PM (#2999647)
Subject: RE: Question on Green Grow the Rashes
From: Steve Gardham

I always thought that little anecdote referred to 'Green grow the Laurels', not 'Green grow the Rushes'.

Gringo.

04 Oct 10 - 06:56 PM (#2999676)
Subject: RE: Question on Green Grow the Rashes
From: Gutcher

The second version of the song given by Bill 22.3.02. was aye sung in

Ayrshire using "rashes" and in the second last line of the chorus "saftest" not "sweetest".
I have not seen this version in print before today.
Joe.

24 Oct 12 - 10:17 PM (#3425665)
Subject: RE: Question on Green Grow the Rashes
From: GUEST

Who is the speaker? What is he like? What is his highest value? How seriously do you take his pronouncements?

25 Oct 12 - 11:09 AM (#3425871)
Subject: RE: Question on Green Grow the Rashes
From: GUEST,leeneia

"tapsalteerie"

According to my unabridged dictionary, this is a variant of topsy-turvy. Accented syllables are in the same place.

rash is a variant of rush, as we assumed

21 May 19 - 12:53 AM (#3993203)
Subject: RE: Question on Green Grow the Rashes
From: GUEST,Esraa

what is the symbolism of the title (green grow the rashes)

21 May 19 - 07:37 AM (#3993240)
Subject: RE: Question on Green Grow the Rashes
From: GUEST,Jack Campin

"gringo" dates from before Burns was born

21 May 19 - 11:51 AM (#3993274)
Subject: RE: Question on Green Grow the Rashes
From: Steve Gardham

Well we can delete the rest of the thread then! Nice one, Jack. It's all Greek to me!

21 May 19 - 08:05 PM (#3993340)
Subject: RE: Question on Green Grow the Rashes
From: Lighter

Well, not exactly. Burns was still around in 1787, when "gringo" was recorded in that Spanish dictionary.

The older Snopes references are not to the *word* "gringo."