|
22 Mar 02 - 05:12 PM (#674303) Subject: dolores keane's moll dubh From: GUEST,ciarili Dolores Keane sings totally different verses of Moll Dubh than Mairéad Ní Mhaonaigh. Has anybody got them? Thanks, 'Catters! ciarili |
|
22 Mar 02 - 07:23 PM (#674395) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: dolores keane's moll dubh From: Hrothgar Does that mean "black moll/" How politically incorrect can you get? |
|
22 Mar 02 - 07:29 PM (#674400) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: dolores keane's moll dubh From: ciarili Yes, it means Dark Moll, but that refers to the colour of a person's hair! In this case, it's a tongue in cheek reference to a still, not a girl. People are often referred to by the colour of their hair in Gaelic cultures. You can see the same thing in Star of the County Down, where he says, "No maid I've seen like the brown cailín that I met in the County Down." Roger, over and out! (Yes, pun intended, Hrothgar!) ciarili |
|
22 Mar 02 - 10:31 PM (#674531) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: dolores keane's moll dubh From: Brían Is it the same version that sarah & Rite Keane sing? Brían |
|
22 Mar 02 - 11:48 PM (#674564) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: dolores keane's moll dubh From: ciarili I would presume so, though I'm not totally sure. |
|
23 Mar 02 - 03:01 AM (#674605) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: dolores keane's moll dubh From: ciarili Back to the un-PC thing, a nun is called cailleach dubh in gaelic, but so is a black woman. They are both called black women! How's that for confusing? |
|
23 Mar 02 - 03:53 AM (#674615) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: dolores keane's moll dubh From: Hrothgar Good pun, Ciarili. Not many would pick that up! |
|
23 Mar 02 - 10:26 AM (#674750) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: dolores keane's moll dubh From: Brían A Cailleach dhubh is another name for a black seabird called a commarant(sp.?). It means Black Hag. It may be a slang word for nun. The Irish wors I know is Bean Rialta, or Woman of the Rules A black woman in Irish would be Bean Gorm, or Blue Woman Of course people aren't black, blue or brown at all. We all have the same pigment to a different degree. I'll be back with a version that should be close to Dolores' version of Moll Dubh an Ghleann Brían |
|
23 Mar 02 - 06:00 PM (#675005) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: dolores keane's moll dubh From: GUEST,Bean mi-rialta Cailleach dhubh is still Scottish Gaelic for nun and I believe it used to be the term in Irish. I live in Baile na gCailleach, in Ireland, and they say that means that long ago there was a convent in the area. commorant |
|
23 Mar 02 - 06:47 PM (#675026) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: dolores keane's moll dubh From: ciarili Yep, I forgot to say it was Gàidhlig, and I bet Brían's a Irish guy. I don't really speak either (hence my forgetting the h in dhubh) although to hear me sing you wouldn't know that. I have a good ear. What I really need to do it get myself over to Donegal or Scotland and get fluent! Oh, for a zillion bucks.... |
|
24 Mar 02 - 07:24 AM (#675303) Subject: Lyr Add: MOLL DUBH AN GHLEANNA From: Brían I'm actually American of Irish ancestry. We have a branch of Cumann na Gaeilge(The Gaelic League) in our area. Why don't you try www.daltai.com and see if there is one in your area. Also, I meant to mention that the Dubh in Bean Dubh refers to black hair, not skin. The band Altan suggests that Bean Dubh an Ghleanna could refer to an alcolic beverage, since the aspiated G in Ghleanna sounds like Leanna or Irish for Beer hence, Black Woman of The Beer. Songs mentioning cows, especially the one-horned variety usually refer to stills. Of course, it may a song about a fellow who is heartsick and sore over a black haired woman who left his heart broken. Thanks for the spell check,Bean mi-rialta. I couldn't find commorant in my dictionary. Here are the words I promised from Amhráin Mhuighe Seola. They are jumbled up, but basically the same version the keanes sing: MOLL DUBH AN GHLEANNA Tá bó agam ar an shliabh, 's fada mé ina diaidah, Nó gu chaill mé mo chiall le nóchar, Dá seoladh soir 's siar ins gach áit d'á dtéigheann an ghrian, Nó go bhfilleann sí ar ais tráthnóna. Curfá: 'Sí Moll dubh an ghleann' í, 'sí Moll dubh an earraigh í. 'Sí Moll dubh is deirge ná an rósa, 'S dá bhfaighainn-se féin mo roghain mhná óga deas an domhan, 'Sí Moll dubh an Ghleann' a b'fhearr liom. Nuair a bhreathnaim féin anonn ins an áit a mbíonn mo rún, Síleann ó mo shúilibh sruth deora, Is a Rí gheal ns nDúl, déan fuaiscailte ar mo chúis Mar 'sí bean dubh an ghleanna do bhreó mé. Dá bhfághainn-se bean sa Mhumhmain,'S triúr bean sa Laigheann, Agus bean mbéadh dá mhíle bó aici, Ach 'sí bean ne bhfáinne mbuí a chráith go deo mo chroí, Is mo chúig chéad slán go deo léi. Curfá: Tá iníonn ag an Íarla, tá sise go píoclach, Do mo iarraidh-se fhághail le pósadh, Ach dá bhfághainn-se féin mo róghain de mhná óga deas 'an domhan, 'S Moll duh an Ghleanna do thógfainn. Curfá: Siúd é siar mo theach 's gan de dian air ach an scraith, 'S é déanta ar leath-thaobh an bhóthair, 'S nach críonna bíonn an bheach nuair a dhéanann sí a nead Le teas agus le grian an fhomhair. Curfá: Nuair a aosuigheann an tslat ní fhanann uirthe meas Ach ag tnuth leis an duileoigín is óige, Ach a chailín álainn deas, d'éalaidh uiam le spreas, 'S mo chúig chéad slán go deo leat. Curfá: My apologies for any spelling errors. I am taking this from old script and there have been a lot of spelling changes since this book was printed in 1919. Brían |
|
24 Mar 02 - 02:20 PM (#675443) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: dolores keane's moll dubh From: ciarili A Bhríain, a stór, I can't tell you how happy I get when somebody comes through with a song I've been hankering for for years! All day long I'm gonna be happy as a cat! If you send me your address, I'll send you a lyrics cd with everything I've got. That's over 400 Irish songs (almost all as Gaeilge), and going on 800 Scottish songs (almost all Gàidhlig). I've a number in Manx and Welsh, and even 3 or 4 in Cornish and in Breton. My email is ciarili@yahoo.com. Thanks a million for making my day, ciarili |
|
25 Mar 02 - 06:52 AM (#675813) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: dolores keane's moll dubh From: Brían Tá fáilte romhat(You are welcome)! Brían |
|
26 Mar 02 - 09:11 AM (#676524) Subject: Lyr Add: MALL DUBH AN GHLEANNA From: GUEST,Philippa the lyrics above look similar to the version that Altan (singer Mairéad Ní Mhaonaigh) does. Here is a different song with the same name. I believe it's on an old Gael-Linn record of Aodh Ó Duibheannaigh. These lyrics are from the book "Amhráin Hiúdaí Fheilimí agus Laoithe Fiannaíochta as Rann na Feirste", compiled by Pádraig Ó Baoighill and Mánus Ó Baoill and published last year by Preas Uladh, Muineachán (Monaghan). Hiúdaí Fheilimí (Aodh) Mac Grianna of Rann na Feirste, County Donegal, was a brother of the well-known authors Séamas and Seosamh and the songwriter Seán Bán Mac Grianna. The book is a compilation of Hiúdaí's contributions to the Irish Folklore Commission in the 1930s. Múnus Ó Baoill says he got the tune from another publication, "Amhráin Chúúige Uladh".
MALL DUBH AN GHLEANNA
Cé h-é sin amuigh ag fuinneogaí mo thigh
Who is that at my window? |
|
26 Mar 02 - 11:33 AM (#676640) Subject: Lyr Add: MOLL DUBH A' GHLEANNA (sung by Altan) From: ciarili Yes, the second verse is one that Mairéad sings! The verses from Brían, however, are the ones that Dolores sings and are all different from the Altan ones. Here's the Altan version:
Tá ba agam ar shliabh's nil duine 'gam na ndiadh ciarili line breaks fixed by mudelf ;-) |
|
26 Mar 02 - 06:55 PM (#676948) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: dolores keane's moll dubh From: GUEST,Philippa just add the letters br enclosed by angle brackets - with no spaces inbetween - at the end of each line. Double for two line spaces. Look up the key word html for threads with lots more info., like how to do colours, etc. |
|
26 Mar 02 - 07:18 PM (#676968) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: dolores keane's moll dubh From: ciarili Yeah. I've seen some of those threads, and there's enough in them to spin your head. Thanks so much for everything! I think I'll be posting those cds on Friday. Do I remember correctly having read that you live on the Isle of Skye? ciarili |
|
29 May 02 - 02:06 PM (#719628) Subject: Tune Add:MALL DUBH AN GHLEANNA From: MMario the tune for Phillipa's post of 9:11 am the 26th (above)
X:1
|
|
29 May 02 - 02:42 PM (#719651) Subject: Tune Add: MAL DUBH AN GHLEANNA From: MMario Another Version - lyrics posted here are just to show realationship to the music - no guarantee as to accuracy. (I was lazy and didn't do the html, and also not sure I actually read all the letters correctly) Phillipa will post more complete and correct lyrics later I am sure. *grin*
X:1 |
|
29 May 02 - 06:37 PM (#719822) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: dolores keane's moll dubh From: GUEST,Philippa Yes , I'll post the lyrics for that second tune in a couple of days (I told MMario there was an embargo on the ABC but he decided to push me) Lyrics for tune 2 are similar to Dolores Keane and Altan and Amhráin Mhuighe Seola lyrics, but without the chorus. The tune, however, is closer to the Hiúdaí Fheilimí tune than it is to the Altan tune. I don't know what tune the other two versions use. Are they similar to the tune sung by Mairéad Ní Mhaonaigh with Altan? Oh, MMario, many thanks for all your help. |
|
29 May 02 - 08:40 PM (#719889) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: dolores keane's moll dubh From: MMario not pushing Phillipa - but I'm starting a spate of 4 day weekends and didn't want to lose it! |
|
30 May 02 - 06:01 AM (#720060) Subject: Lyr Add: MÁL DUBH AN GHLEANNA From: GUEST,Philippa Lucky you, how will you spend the free time? From Pádraig Mac Seáin. "Ceolta Theilinn" . Belfast: Institute of Irish Studies, Queen's University, 1973 : (Nollaig Ó hUrmoltaigh transcribed the music published in the book, Seán Ó hEochaidh transcribed words from tape and NJA Williams worked on the synopses in English ) A song collected in Teelin, Southwest Donegal MÁL DUBH AN GHLEANNA Tá bó agam ar sliabh is bíom-sa seal `na déi, Ó chaill mé mo chiall le nuachar, `á seoladh soir is siar i ngach áit a dtéid an ghrian, Go bpillidh sí arais aniar tráthnóna, Mise bheith gan mhnaoi feasta choidhch' cha mbíom, Is Mál Dubh i dtús a hóige. Is gur fann guth an éin a labhras leis féin In uaigneas ar thaoibh an mhónaidh.
Is ag Mál Dubh an Ghleanna 'tá mo chroidhe 'stoigh i dtaiscidh,
Dá bhfaghinnse bean ón phrionnsa 's bean eile ón imp 're
Nach laghach críonna ` bheach nuair a ní sí a nead
Synopsis
Many versions with slightly different titles. Pádraig has another verse from his mother. The erse says that every young man in the country is seeking the hand of Mál Dubh:
Mór é nó beag níor luaidheadh mise leat |
|
30 May 02 - 06:20 AM (#720066) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: dolores keane's moll dubh From: MMario w*rking - two of the days will be spent in travel and the other two w*rking; but I will be without electricity le alone computer... |
|
30 May 02 - 07:42 AM (#720096) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: dolores keane's moll dubh From: GUEST,Philippa Translation – see verses submitted by Ciarili on 26 March 02 – On the liner notes for Altan album "The Red Crow", the following is given as a translation of "Moll Dubh a' Ghleanna"
I have cattle on the hill,
Me without a wife, I won't be all my life |
|
30 May 02 - 07:44 AM (#720098) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: dolores keane's moll dubh From: GUEST,Philippa There are lots of spelling and typographical errors on this thread, and I'm responsible for some of them. Most of you can probably correctthe English spellings for yourself, but if you put the initial "r" in CORMORANT, you can probably find reference to this bird in your dictionary. De Bhaldraithe's English to Irish dictionary gives "Broigheall" and "Amplóir" for cormorant. The Scottish Gaelic is "sgarbh" or "sgairbh". In Irish, Broigheall is the bird and amplóir is a glutton (from amplach – greedy or covetous). We get cormorants in the water in Derry city centre; the River Foyle is salt water, the narrow end of an sea estuary. I like Brian's name for a cormorant. It puts me in mind for one of the names for an owl, "cailleach oíche"; óiche (Scottish and older Irish spelling: oidhche) = night.
From Brian's message –first verse "diaidah" should be "diaidh",probably "gu" should be "gur", "nóchar" and "nuachar" are variant spellings of the same word, meaning "spouse"
|
|
31 May 02 - 04:06 PM (#720729) Subject: Lyr Add: MOLL DUBH A' GHLEANNA From: GUEST,Philippa Aodh Ó Duibheannaigh (Hiúdaí Phaidí Hiúdaí, born 1914) of Rann na Feirste, County Donegal, sang a different mixture of many of the verses you see above: MOLL DUBH A' GHLEANNA (as sung by Aodh Ó Duibheannaigh)
Is ag Moll Dubh an Ghleanna atá mo grá le fada,
Níl aon óganach gasta ó Bhaile Átha Cliath go Gaillimh
Tá bá agam ar sliabh `s níl aon duine agam `na ndiaidh,
Folamh liom féin orthu, feasta ní bheinn
Níon óg an Iarla agus í a bheith i bpriacal
Siúd é thiar mo theach `s; níl tuí air ná scrath
Is fann guth an éin a labhras leis féin
|
|
11 Dec 03 - 08:31 PM (#1070619) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: dolores keane's moll dubh From: GUEST,duine-saor a charaidh, Actually, there is no aspirant in this case. You were correct in both spelling and in terminology. "Black woman" in Scots Gaelic (in this case Lochaber dialect from Cape Breton), can mean a black-haired or avisaged woman, a nun, or a black-hearted bitch, depending on context and intonation, etc. And yes, it also meant nun in Irish, although the other chap was not incorrect either. Gaelic has many ways of expressing things, on many levels. Gaelic on the bardic level is very hard for people outwith to figure out, because of idiom, cultural context, etc., which is why many non-Gaelic people dealing with the music never pick up the deeper meanings. le gach durachd math, S |
|
12 Dec 03 - 05:30 AM (#1070836) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: dolores keane's moll dubh From: AKS Aah, looks like them vikings been there in Scotia! Re sgarbh: c.f. Old Norse skarfr, Swedish (stor)skarv = cormorant (the bird) ;-) AKS |
|
12 Dec 03 - 01:29 PM (#1071034) Subject: RE: Cailleach-Dhubh From: GUEST,Philippa Ciarili was referring to the h in Cailleach Dhubh. Moll Dubh is not lenited (or aspirated) nor is Bean Dubh (lenition is often abandoned when the letters d,n,t,l,s follow one another), but Cailleach Dhubh is, according to both Ó Domhnaill's Irish dictionary and Dwelly's Scottish Gaelic dictionary and the more modern "Brigh nam Facal". The word "cailleach" is grammatically feminine and that accounts for the lenition of the adjective following it. (However it is true that some words may be treated grammatically as feminine in one dialect and as masculine in another) The Irish dictionary cites "Cailleach Dhubh" and "Cailleach Mhuire" (woman of Mary) as historical, old terms for a nun. Both dictionaries give "cailleach dhubh" for the cormorant as well, though in my experience sgarbh is the more commonly used name in Scotland. Another interesting name given in Dwelly is "cailleag-beag-an-earbaill" (the little woman of the tail) for the long-tailed tit (titmouse, a bird!), also called "cìochan fada". In Irish the long-tailed tit would be called "meantán earrfhada", but Dwelly translates "meantan" as snipe, a very different sort of bird. I've also come across gocan for a tit in Scotland, though it seems to be a name applied to various small birds. Cìochan really intrigues me, as cìoch means breast and I didn't think we were talking about that kind of tit. It reminds me of a local hotel which used to have a blue dome on its roof and was jokingly called the "blue tit". "Tit" for a small bird may be of Viking origin also, as in the Icelandic titlinr. An older Irish dictionary, Dineen's, does have an entry for "scarbh", translated as "cormorant"; but the only meaning given for "scarbh" by Ó Domhnaill is a "scarf". According to the Concise Oxford Dictionary of English Etymology (1996 edition), "cormorant" comes from the medieval Latin "corvus marinus", a sea raven. Leann (or leanna) is ale (though the word is sometimes used to refer to other types of liquid), leann dubh is the black stuff: porter, stout (for example Guinness) |
|
30 Dec 03 - 05:44 PM (#1082719) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: dolores keane's moll dubh From: GUEST,An Púca Cailleach is derived originally from caille (veil) which is in itself derived from the Latin "pallium" indicating that the term came into gaelic with the arrival of christianity. The rendering of initial Latin p- as c- in gaelic is regular in that early period. Cailleach used for an old woman or hag is evidenced in early writings however and the cailleach in Irish literature and folklore is the subject of a book due out about now in Ireland. This doesn't have much to do with Moll Dubh an Ghleanna but may interest those who have been looking up the modern dictionaries. Cailleach dhubh or broigheall is what my grandfather used to call a cormorant, a bird he used to shoot and eat. Not a dish found in many Irish restaurants nowadays. |
|
31 Dec 03 - 02:10 AM (#1082979) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: dolores keane's moll dubh From: GUEST,JTT Cailleach is also used as an affectionate term in Connemara for a little girl. I don't see what would be politically incorrect about referring to a loved woman's skin colour, any more than it would be wrong to love her hair colour. But as several people have noted, the race called black in English is called gorm (an chine ghorm: the black race) in Irish. Gorm in this case refers rather to "the natural colour given to a thing" than to blue. Though some of the black people you see around Dublin have a wonderful skin colour, so deep a black that there's a bluish sheen to it. References to Moll Dubh or Bean an Fhir Rua (the wife of the red (-haired) man) are common in songs in Irish, and this is a common usage in Irish. But it's quite common in the usage of English in Ireland to refer to people by their hair colour: "Who's that little black fellow over there?" (referring to a man with black hair), or "I was talking to that red fellow in the supermarket..." |
|
03 Jan 04 - 01:57 PM (#1085313) Subject: RE: cailleach From: GUEST,Philippa yes, I'd be interested in the book mentioned by an Púca so please supply further bibliographical details! |
|
03 Jan 04 - 02:00 PM (#1085316) Subject: RE: cailleach From: GUEST,Philippa i.s. - I suppose the Irish and Scottish Gaelic words "cailín" and "cailleag" for a girl, are derivatives of the word "cailleach", as the -ín (een)(Irish) and -eag (Scottish)endings indicate diminutives |
|
04 Jan 04 - 11:12 AM (#1085780) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: dolores keane's moll dubh From: GUEST,An Púca Afraid I can't remember very clearly about the book. Not living in the country anymore but it should be available by now. In English rather than in Irish. One of the UCC academics I think. Sorry about that. I doubt if cailín or caileag derive from cailleach (the diminutive would be cailleach(a)ín). Cailín is diminutive of caile which meant a servant girl at first (buachaill for boy also meant a cowherd originally - the Court of Justice, Nike and Nestlé are currently investigating child labour conditions in early Ireland!!). Apart from the difference between -l- and -ll- cailín is one of those words whose grammatical gender differs from the sense, being always masculine, while cailleach is always feminine - there is a resemblence but possibly no direct derivation one from the other. Sorry again about the lack of detail about the book. If it flashes across the brain I'll post it. |