Origin: The Roast Beef of Old England (Fielding?)

05 Apr 98 - 12:44 PM (#25190)
Subject: Lyr req: England's Roast Beef
From: Marc B

A group called Skafell Pike used to do a song called "England's Roast Beef" done to one of the ubiquitous folk tunes. Anybody out there know lyrics to this one. One of the losses I experience at not having a turntable anymore - I've not it on vinyl but can't play it!

Thanks. Marc B

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05 Apr 98 - 05:20 PM (#25204)
Subject: RE: Lyr req: England's Roast Beef
From: BAZ

Marc
I think it may be called Oh the Roast Beef of old England, there is another variation on the data base called Oh the Hard Cheese of Old England in Old England Very Hard Cheese.
Regards Baz

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05 Apr 98 - 05:37 PM (#25206)
Subject: RE: Lyr req: England's Roast Beef
From: Joe Offer

Marc, take a look at this thread. Is that the song you're looking for?
-Joe Offer-

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05 Apr 98 - 09:26 PM (#25230)
Subject: RE: Lyr req: England's Roast Beef
From: [e-mail]

"The Roast Beef of Old England" is a phrase denoting the high standard of living there. As far as I know it was first used by Hogarth in a series of sketches called "The Roast Beef of Old England". He depicts the English dining on (presumably) roast beef while the French are digging under rocks for their food (frogs?). I heard that he was arrested at the French border for trying to cross without the proper credentials and as a result became anti-French.

"Hard Cheese" is a phrase meaning "tough luck". Besides the song in the database making fun of the English Cheeses and the English attitude towards them, the title seems to have a parody content as well.

Murray

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05 Apr 98 - 10:12 PM (#25233)
Subject: RE: Lyr req: England's Roast Beef
From: dick greenhaus

AS far as I can tell, "Hard Cheese" is a parody of "Hard Times of Old Englasnd". Rosbif, as our Gallic friends would have it, is something else.

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05 Apr 98 - 10:53 PM (#25237)
Subject: RE: Lyr req: England's Roast Beef
From: Bob Bolton

Only a sidelight to "The Roast Beef of Old England":

In Australia we have a folksong, which is formed from a parody on the above, "The New England Cocky". New England is a mountainous area in the northeast of New South Wales and is noted for its (comparatively) cold climate - thus the "New" England tag.

The song is a fairly standard catalogue of tough conditions, served up in the guise of a dying small-holding farmer (colloquially a "Cocky Farmer") parcelling out his meagre possessions to his surviving children. The song is obviously from other than the "Cocky Farmer" class as it is far less than sympathetic!

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06 Apr 98 - 11:35 AM (#25258)
Subject: RE: Lyr req: England's Roast Beef
From: Bruce O.

I thought I added something yesterday, but it isn't here, so I must have hit the wrong button. At any rate there's a short history of publication of Leveridge's song in C. M. Simpson's 'The British Broadside Ballad and Its Music', 1966. Leveridge's tune from Walsh's 'The British Musical Miscellany', II, c 1735 is given by Simpson (book is in Library of Congress), and as an ABC, B392 in file BM3.ABC on my website, www.erols.com/olsonw

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06 Apr 98 - 07:07 PM (#25301)
Subject: RE: Lyr req: England's Roast Beef
From: MarcB

Well,

Once again I owe everyone a debt of thanks and I'm sorry I wasn't here to get the original thread in November so as not to repeat the conversation. I did access that thread as suggested by Joe Offer and the post was indeed the lyrics I was looking for. Huzzah!

Thanks to everyone for the added background as well. I will look up the Hard Cheese thingy on the dbase.

And for the record(though really appropo to the previous thread), I'm just back from a North of England stint and found the food to be extremely tasty.

Marc B

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12 Sep 07 - 07:46 PM (#2147803)
Subject: RE: req:England's Roast Beef/Roast Beef of Old England
From: Joe Offer

Here's the Traditional Ballad Index entry on this song:

Roast Beef of Old England, The

DESCRIPTION: "When mighty roast beef was the Englishman's food, It ennobled our hearts and strengthened our blood." The singer complains about the new-fangled French ragouts, and recalls the good old days of Queen Elizabeth, the Armada -- and beef
AUTHOR: Richard Leveridge (c. 1670-1758)
EARLIEST DATE: 1855 (Chappell), but known to be in use at least a century before that
KEYWORDS: food royalty battle
HISTORICAL REFERENCES:
1558-1603 - Reign of Elizabeth (I)
1588 - Voyage of the Spanish Armada
FOUND IN: Britain(England)
REFERENCES (1 citation):
Chappell/Wooldridge II, pp. 95-96, "The Roast Beef of Old England" (1 text, 1 tune)
Notes: Not, as far as I can tell, an actual folk song -- but, prior to the adoption of "God Save the King," this was as close as England, and particularly the English navy, came to having an anthem. It probably belongs here on that basis. - RBW
File: ChWII095

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The Ballad Index Copyright 2007 by Robert B. Waltz and David G. Engle.

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12 Sep 07 - 07:53 PM (#2147810)
Subject: RE: req:England's Roast Beef/Roast Beef of Old England
From: Declan

The hard cheese song is indeed a parody on the hard times of old England, written by the one and only Les Barker. It is given much greater authenticity as a folk song in that it sung on the record by Martin Carthy.

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12 Sep 07 - 07:56 PM (#2147813)
Subject: Lyr Add: ROAST BEEF OF OLD ENGLAND
From: Jim Dixon

Here's what I found with Google Book Search:

From "The Works of Henry Fielding," 1903:

THE ROAST BEEF OF OLD ENGLAND
Henry Fielding – from the play "Don Quixote in England," 1733

1. When mighty roast beef was the Englishman's food,
It ennobled our hearts, and enriched our blood;
Our soldiers were brave, and our courtiers were good:

CHORUS: Oh the roast beef of old England,
And old England's roast beef!

2. Then, Britons, from all nice dainties refrain,
Which effeminate Italy, France, and Spain;
And mighty roast beef shall command on the main.

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From "Chambers's Cyclopaedia of English Literature":

"Richard Leveridge took Fielding's first [sic] verse, added others, and set the whole to music."

From "Parodies of the Works of English & American Authors" by Walter Hamilton, 1887:

THE ROAST BEEF OF OLD ENGLAND.
(Richard Leveridge - first two verses by Henry Fielding)

When mighty Roast Beef was the Englishman's food,
It ennobled our hearts, and enriched our blood;
Our soldiers were brave, and our courtiers were good.

CHORUS: Oh! the Roast Beef of Old England,
And, oh! for Old England's Roast Beef!

Then, Britons, from all nice dainties refrain,
Which effeminate* Italy, France, and Spain;
And mighty roast beef shall command on the main.

But since we have learnt from effeminate France,
To eat their ragouts, as well as to dance;
We are fed up with nothing but vain complaisance,

Our fathers of old were robust, stout and strong,
And kept open house, with good cheer all day long,
Which made their plump tenants rejoice in this song,—

When good Queen Elizabeth sat on the throne,
Ere coffee and tea and such slipslops were known;
The world was in terror if e'en she did frown,

In those days, if fleets did presume on the main,
They seldom or never returned back again,
As witness the vaunting Armada of Spain.

Oh! then we had stomachs to eat and to fight.
And when wrongs were cooking, to set ourselves right,—
But now, we're a—hum!—I could, but Good night,

This song was first printed complete in Walsh's "British Miscellany" about 1740. It was written and composed by Richard Leveridge, with the exception of the first two verses which were written by Henry Fielding, for a comedy entitled "Don Quixote in England." This piece was acted at the New-Theatre in the Haymarket, 1733.

*I assume "effeminate" here is a verb, and rhymes with "disseminate."

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Click to play

(Leveridge tune)

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12 Sep 07 - 08:02 PM (#2147821)
Subject: RE: req:England's Roast Beef/Roast Beef of Old England
From: RTim

This Tune is also used as a "traditional" Morris Stick Dance in the village of Adderbury, Oxfordshire - and is a great dance to perform - almost in waltz time..


Tim Radford (ex-Squire & Foreman - The Adderbury Morris Men)

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12 Sep 07 - 08:28 PM (#2147842)
Subject: RE: req:England's Roast Beef/Roast Beef of Old England
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

effeminate, adjective.

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12 Sep 07 - 10:11 PM (#2147887)
Subject: RE: req:England's Roast Beef/Roast Beef of Old England
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

In a Civil War version of "Bummers, Come and Meet Us," is the verse:

How are you, Johnny Bull, old boy? How are you, Johnny Bull?
How are you, Johnny Bull, old boy? How are you Johnny Bull?
If you want to fight, old Roast Beef, you will get your belly full,
And then go rolling home.

"Bummers, Come and Meet Us." H. De Marsan, N. Y.,no date.
In American Memory.

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12 Sep 07 - 10:12 PM (#2147888)
Subject: Lyr. Add: American Roast Beef
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

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12 Sep 07 - 10:41 PM (#2147903)
Subject: Lyr Add: AMERICAN ROAST BEEF (Wm. M. Stewart)
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

AMERICAN ROAST BEEF
Wm. M. Stewart, 1801

Since Jefferson now, is our Leader and Chief,
And Place-men compell'd to turn o'er a new leaf,
Let's sing and rejoice whilst we feast on our Beef.
Chorus
Success to the Beef of Columbia,
Success to Columbian Roast Beef.

Pale discord intent to o'erthrow us did boast
To banish Republicans all from our coast,
But this aim they have miss'd- now they join in our toast,
Chorus
To sing the Roast Beef of Columbia,
To sing for a slice of our Beef.

Some swore Johnny Adams, the Nation should Steer,
With an Army and Navy, We'd nothing to fear,
But this useless Parade- will I hope disappear.
Chorus
A useless expense to Columbia,
Nor feed on Columbian Roast Beef.

Let's join hand in hand- Party Spirit we'll rout;
Attention! ye Feds, to the Right face About,
Put good Men in office- Keep all bad Men out-
Chorus
Who Plunder the *----- of Columbia,
And suck the Heart's Blood of our Beef.
* People crossed out and a word substituted- ?

Should henceforth Ambition- with vile harpy claws,
Attempt to enslave us- with Despotic Laws,
Like FREEMEN oppose them- or Die in the Cause.
Chorus
Let's guard the Roast Beef of Columbia,
Protect our Columbian Roast Beef.

This foul Party-Spirit makes damnable Rout,
Wants Nabobs in office- and turn Merit out,
Consider Columbians- What are you about?
Chorus
You're Stabbing the Heart of Columbia,
You drain the Heart's Blood of his Beef.

My toast then accept- Here's the Man we can trust,
May Faction and Party- by Freemen be crush'd,
May the man who won't pledge me- O may he then burst,
Chorus
When he tastes of the Beef of Columbia
May he choak when he eats of his Beef.

My American history is too weak to recall the Party politics and contenders of the time, but I thought it interesting.

American Memory. Wm. M. Stewart is added in MS to the broadside. "A song composed for the 4th March, 1801."

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13 Sep 07 - 02:30 AM (#2148003)
Subject: RE: req:England's Roast Beef/Roast Beef of Old England
From: Joe Offer

I think I'd agree with Jim Dixon that "effeminate" in this case is used as a verb. It's an interesting use of the word.

The lyrics in Jim's post are just about the same as the two versions found in William Chappell's Popular Music of the Olden Time (1859). Chappell says the two-verse Henry Fielding song, published in 1733, was sung to the air of "The Queen's Old Courtier."

Chappell did not have a date for Richard Leveridge's six-verse version, which uses the first verse from Fielding's song, but not the second. Leveridge composed the tune, which was used for a number of later songs.

You can also find the Chappell book at Google Books - pages 636-638.

-Joe-

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Click to play

(Leveridge tune)

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13 Sep 07 - 05:09 PM (#2148493)
Subject: RE: req:England's Roast Beef/Roast Beef of Old England
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

You're right, it has to be a verb form. We probably would recast as 'make effeminate.'

Examples from OED.
Use as a verb:
1758- "the too free admission of wealth could effeminate their manners."

Use as an adjective: A adj.
c. 1430- "The most perilous thyng A prince to have been of his condition Effeminate."

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