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06 May 02 - 12:18 PM (#705271) Subject: Hanoi Jane - any songs? From: GUEST Yesterday I went to our district's monthly fiddle jam - held this time at an American Legion club. When I went to the men's room, one of the urinals had an eye-catching bright red & black bull's eye target in it with an image of Jane Fonda and the words "Hanoi Jane - Urinal Target". Given that she and her (now-ex) husband Ted Turner own a huge ranch about sixty miles from here, I was bemused. And it got me to wondering. Were there any songs written about Jane Fonda's infamous dealings with the North Vietnamese in that troubled time? |
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06 May 02 - 12:19 PM (#705273) Subject: RE: BS: Hanoi Jane - any songs? From: GUEST,Les B. Sorry, I clean forgot to append my moniker. |
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06 May 02 - 01:58 PM (#705328) Subject: RE: Hanoi Jane - any songs? From: GUEST,Garydon I don't know of any songs. However I have often wondered why, what I consider a tratious act as working for the N Viet could be forgotten so easily and how Jane did not have a ny significant concequenses to pay because of it. I have to have a lack of information. Can anyone help me find out just what she did that was not tratious any why she got off scott free. Gary® |
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06 May 02 - 02:54 PM (#705365) Subject: RE: Hanoi Jane - any songs? From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Jane Fonda was an outspoken critic of the war. As such she was exercizing her right to speak, as an American citizen concerned about the actions of the American government. Most of the emotional garbage written about her on the internet bears little relation to the truth. |
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06 May 02 - 03:09 PM (#705375) Subject: RE: Hanoi Jane - any songs? From: UB Ed Oh man, let me post quick and get out of the way; I sense some strong opinions will weigh in. In addition to her outspoken and sometimes "radical" opposition to the war, all I know (and there was some internet mail version of this going around) is there was some sort of incident in which she betrayed the confidence of an American POW on one of her visits to 'Nam. Don't know if this is one of those urban legends or what. Anyway, I'm outta this one. Ed |
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06 May 02 - 03:13 PM (#705378) Subject: RE: Hanoi Jane - any songs? From: allanwill I'll get out quick too, but I have to say, as an Australian, the only way I think of Jane Fonda is as Barbarella. Oh my youth, where have you gone - GROAN! Allan |
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06 May 02 - 03:17 PM (#705380) Subject: RE: Hanoi Jane - any songs? From: Midchuck Treason is defined as giving aid and comfort to the enemy in time of war. There was never any declaration of war. Therefore, there was no war. So Jane couldn't have comitted treason, no matter what she did. The adminstration should have thought of that before they decided to fight an undeclared (and therefore probably illegal, ab initio) "war." That's as good an explanation as I can come up with, anyhow. Peter. |
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06 May 02 - 03:27 PM (#705390) Subject: RE: Hanoi Jane - any songs? From: Joe Offer There always seemed to be a tone of propaganda to the term "Hanoi Jane," but I have to admit the term is catchy. In fact, I'd say the pro-war forces made more political hay out of Jane Fonda's Hanoi trip than the anti-war forces did. It's 30 years after the fact, and you still hear people insist that Fonda should have been tried for treason. In fact, there's even a website called hanoijane.net/. In my opinion, the pro-war forces would have shot themselves in the foot if they had succeeded in getting Fonda tried for treason. It would have made a political martyr of Fonda, and it would have solidified the antiwar forces much sooner. Were there songs about Fonda's trip? Gee, I think there must have been. I'm sure there were GI's who made up march cadence chants that mentioned Fonda. I did find one song - I think it may be from MadTV - click here. Hanoi JaneThe persistence of the "Hanoi Jane" hulabaloo is interesting to me. I think there's a parallel with the hate campaign against Hillary Clinton. Both campaigns seem to be way out of line with the putative misdeeds of Fonda and Clinton. Why do these women engender such intense anger? -Joe Offer- |
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06 May 02 - 03:48 PM (#705406) Subject: RE: Hanoi Jane - any songs? From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Perhaps because they are both strong women, Joe. There are still some out there who believe in the barefoot and pregnant creed. |
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06 May 02 - 04:01 PM (#705419) Subject: RE: Hanoi Jane - any songs? From: Stilly River Sage Joe asked Why do these women engender such intense anger? Because they are smart, have thought the issues through, and have taken unpopular stances because they let their consciences guide them. More power to them. You might also want to add Vanessa Redgrave to your list. She has been speaking out for the rights of the Palestinians for a long time. I heard an interview with Maude Adams once, who said she'd been warned about bringing up this topic with Redgrave. Despite her better judgement, when they were together on an occasion, she did ask, and was presented with a very organized but rather long discussion of the Palestinian issue. Adams was rather patronizing in her story, said she thanked Redgrave and let the matter rest. Too bad. Redgrave was right, and should have been listened to a long time ago. The emotional tide that accompanied Jane's trip to Hanoi is a huge knee-jerk reaction by people unwilling to give her the right to speak her mind. What is it about beautiful, smart, and talented women that makes them such a target when they speak from the head and the heart simultaneously? If she weren't a U.S. Citizen politicians might have managed to have her deported (a la Emma Goldman, who promoted birth control in the early twentieth century. Margaret Sanger did the same work, and also had difficulties because her promotion of birth control was so unpopular, but like Fonda, was born here so had to be left in a certain amount of peace). I think, personally, that when a high-profile celebrity like Fonda steps forward, she puts to question the fundamental issues in a way that grass-roots protests were unable to. And those who were fighting in Vietnam were forced to ask themselves "is she right?" and then to defend their own positions. Sometimes people who are in ambiguous positions to begin with are the ones who fight the harder to suppress opposition, in order to salve their own conscience, to make it feel right that they're doing what they're doing. Freud probably has some good terms to describe this. Or Foucault. Hindsight doesn't make those pro-war advocates and the soldiers fighting it feel any better, but perhaps coupled with time, it at least allows people to see what Jane was getting at. SRS
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06 May 02 - 05:16 PM (#705471) Subject: RE: Hanoi Jane - any songs? From: GUEST,Garydon Hey; Thanks foro the info, My fram of reference comes from the above mentioned Urban Myth (?). Was actually hoping to get some confirmation &/or Denial type of facts regarding her trip to Hanoi. I am fact less and working from the only hearsay I've heard. To me that is the greatest setup for downfall & prejeduced opinion available. I remain open minded to facts about what happened over there as far as Jane is concerned. Was it a war or No. I would rather stay away from that one my self. A rather strong opinion. Thanks for the site to check out I'll go take a look Gary® |
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06 May 02 - 05:23 PM (#705475) Subject: RE: Hanoi Jane - any songs? From: catspaw49 Click Here for Snopes Page Read it all when you have a chance. While it was true she went and all, please note that a lot of the stuff that circulated about what she did or didn't do is demonstrably untrue. Spaw |
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06 May 02 - 06:08 PM (#705520) Subject: RE: Hanoi Jane - any songs? From: GUEST,No Cookie Again! UB Ed We hit this pretty well a little while ago... |
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06 May 02 - 06:13 PM (#705523) Subject: RE: Hanoi Jane - any songs? From: GUEST,Les B. The urinal sticker displayed on the snopes page referenced by Catspaw is similar but not the same as I saw. The one I saw had only her face, which would have been unrecognizable if it hadn't had the "Hanoi Jane" label. Because of a wrong date setting on a Mudcat server, this message may appear out of order. It was actually posted on 6-May, not 5-May. --JoeClone, 7-May-02. |
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06 May 02 - 10:11 PM (#705652) Subject: RE: Hanoi Jane - any songs? From: Big Mick Why do they engender such intense anger?????? Oh, maybe had you been in combat at the time, buried friends, fought to stay alive, witnessed the horror of war, and so on, you wouldn't ask the question. I reject most of what is written about Jane Fonda as untrue. The story about her giving up POW's is completely false. About the only part of the story that is true is that she did go to North Vietnam and pose for the picture seated on a gun emplacement with a helmet. She did a very foolish thing, and I get angry everytime I see the picture, but we need not embellish it. The truth is bad enough. And no, I don't know any songs. Mick |
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06 May 02 - 10:32 PM (#705668) Subject: RE: Hanoi Jane - any songs? From: Steve in Idaho I forgave Ms. Fonda for any of what she did. I got tired of carrying around that little bracket of hate. And as far as questioning what I was doing and wondering if her opinions/actions made me wonder if what I was doing was right - I don't believe so. Ever coordinated artillery and aircraft at the same time? While being shot at? Sorry I was busy that day.
Ms. Fonda did what she thought was right. Whether or not I agree with her is immaterial. Big Mick makes a strong point and I agree with my Brother for the most part. The other piece is also predicated on natural human instinct. To attempt harm to what is harming us. Ms. Fonda made as good a target as anyone did. It's hard to slug the system - but make a big enough name and you can symbolically be linked to its ideology - therefore an object of anger and hate.
Returning veterans had their own hell to go through. That Ms. Fonda's compatriots blamed the war, and its success or failure, on the returning veteran is the failure of society, media hyperbole, and myth perpetuated by people with other agendas. Much the same as the myth that has been perpetuated by those who place Ms. Fonda stickers in urinals. Makes as much sense to blame the war on me as to blame the problems of veterans on Ms. Fonda.
And I don't know any songs either.
Steve |
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06 May 02 - 10:42 PM (#705674) Subject: RE: Hanoi Jane - any songs? From: Big Mick Yeah, Steve. You said it better than I did. This stuff causes such a welling up of feelings. On one hand I couldn't understand how one would not understand why these folks engender such intense feelings. On the other hand, I am sick to death of folks oversimplifying the time. I find it hard to hate Fonda, when so many I knew and had as friends hated it all too. Hell, Steve, how many did you know while you were in country that didn't believe in the war? Folks that try to turn it all into either a red, white and blue loyalty test bother me every bit as much as those that think it was all right to support the folks that were shooting at me. I would have preferred that they would have confined their activity to trying to get our government out of there, as opposed to literally assisting the "enemy". But even that isn't a black and white issue. Hard to talk about even now, eh, bro? Mick |
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06 May 02 - 11:46 PM (#705696) Subject: RE: Hanoi Jane - any songs? From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Living in Canada at the time, a veteran of WW2, I had a number of young Americans sleeping for a few nights in my basement, on their way to making their decision. Everyone was engaged in soul-searching. Often wondered what happened to these young men of concience. I know some went back, and some stayed in Canada and made good here; I do know about them. All of them were serious, and well-educated. No one in government seemed to have the historical sense to see that the Vietnamese, after fighting the French to a standstill, were nationalists first and communists second. By abandoning the war (undeclared or not), union was finally achieved; and we were not faced with another situation like Korea where the confrontation drags on (I think both the Chinese and Americans realize now that they created a monster). Many thousands on both sides lost their lives as a result of the Vietnam war, I believe needlessly. Another generation must pass before the war can be assessed rationally. |
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07 May 02 - 12:55 AM (#705714) Subject: RE: Hanoi Jane - any songs? From: GUEST,mg Why do she and HC arouse contempt? Because they are vile, that is why. It has nothing to do with being strong. Strength alone does not bring contempt. It might bring other things but not contempt. Strength with virtue brings great respect from those whose opinions should matter. We haven't begun to hear what was done to America during the Clinton Administration..not by a long shot. I won't comment on HJ. I can feel my blood pressure doubling. If you have admiration for strong women, get Noonie Fortin's Book, Women at Risk..We also Served. You'll read about strong women. mg |
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07 May 02 - 12:57 AM (#705720) Subject: RE: Hanoi Jane - any songs? From: Troll Fonda was a light-weight; a bubblehead who was used by Ramsey Clark and his friends because she had visibility. She was anti-war because it was chic in Hollywood to be anti-war, it made for great conversation at parties while waiting for the drugs to kick in. I heard her speak at the University of Florida a couple of years after the Hanoi trip and she was rather pathetic. She rambled about peace and love and in general gave the impression of someone who never had an idea of her own in her life. I understand that later on she developed a little political savvy, but she certainly had none when I heard her. I agree with Mick and Steve, it's better to let it go and move on but there are still a lot of men out here who hate her with a passion. I saw a bumper sticker the other day that addresses those feelings:" I'll Forgive Jane Fonda When The Jews Forgive Hitler". troll |
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07 May 02 - 01:03 AM (#705722) Subject: RE: Hanoi Jane - any songs? From: GUEST,mg you should hear some of the women get going on her..but I am not going to say anything. She has made a name for herself and it will live forever. mg |
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07 May 02 - 09:42 AM (#705889) Subject: RE: Hanoi Jane - any songs? From: Steve in Idaho Yes Mick - It is still difficult. Part of me wants to scream nut the other part of me is so very tired of the war. Nearly 40 years and it is like yesterday. I get teary eyed just reading some of the posts above. Too much for one lifetime I think at times.
When Ms. Fonda apologized on TV several years ago, or in my opinion/interpretation of what she said I forgave her. She made the comment that she was young and dumb and did not understand the impact she was having on the Veterans who served. I figured if she could say that I could move on.
As far as the Jewish community forgiving Hitler I believe it is essential for that to occur. Seems to me that in some instances the Israelis are putting their young people in harms way in the same manner that German troops were during WW-II. I refuse to blame those who go and fight for the things that occur - having been in those situations myself I understand that the line is very thin and time very short for making many of the decisions that last for lifetimes.
mg - Although I rarely direct a post to someone - Forgive me this once. I was in Viet Nam when the first woman was killed. Just North of Da Nang this USO girl was travelling with a contingent of Marines, her body guards, when they were ambushed. She and three Marines were killed. I knew, and know, Nurses that served over there, female journalists, and many others who served in many different capacities. I also have a partner, Janet, and know that it does not require service to make a strong person. Knowing what my partner has survived to become the gentle beautiful person she is - well enough said. We all have the strength - to recognize it is the difficult part I think.
I've ramble enough here - this thread has taken a much gentler twist and I appreciate that. So the call to "Think peace" has occurred to my way of thinking.
Semper Fi Mick - |
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07 May 02 - 11:08 AM (#705947) Subject: RE: Hanoi Jane - any songs? From: paddymac Back was she was married to TT and lived on a big ranch in a neighboring county, I used to pray that I'd find her in my headlights some night. Sadly, it never happened, and I still can't really say what I would have done, but I probably wouldn't have hit the brakes. |
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07 May 02 - 11:14 AM (#705950) Subject: RE: Hanoi Jane - any songs? From: GUEST,Les B. Paddymac - are you in Montana, or one of the other states where TT has land? |
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07 May 02 - 11:58 AM (#705969) Subject: RE: Hanoi Jane - any songs? From: Murph10566 Interesting that I felt I had to check this thread out... Jane Fonda is not one of my favorite people - As a Veteran of Vietnam, I'm afraid that I'll always view her in relation to the infamous photo that Big Mick mentioned... knowing that she was seated at an anti-aircraft battery, wearing the NVA helmet, while U.S. Pilots were being shot down: the image is damning, and unforgettable... Whether or not I forgive her is moot for me - she's ceased to have any relevance to me (if indeed she ever did). I read with particular interest the eloquent and candid entries of Mick and Steve... It's more important than ever that we share these thoughts, I think - Very few adults living in America today were not touched in some way by the Vietnam War... that much is abundantly clear in the various responses. The personal Legacy changed forever my perception of everything and everyone I've experienced in the years post-RVN... what once seemed so important doesn't carry nearly as much weight these days... Family,Friends, Inner Peace, Music... these have been my Salvation... I'm glad that I read these postings (I even went back to the original thread 'way back '00)... There are some who feel that Vietnam was the definitive Event for those of the Baby-boomers Generation... I don't know ... but it certainly left an indelible impression on most of us... Regards, Murph p.s. - Don't really care about a song for Hanoi Jane... |
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07 May 02 - 01:38 PM (#706031) Subject: RE: Hanoi Jane - any songs? From: DougR I had never thought about it, but I am a bit surprised the protestors to any suggestion that at times force might be necessary to settle agreements hasn't written one. I think she would make a pretty good high-profile symbol for their cause. DougR |
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07 May 02 - 01:38 PM (#706032) Subject: RE: Hanoi Jane - any songs? From: GUEST,UB Ed Mick and Steve: Here's to you. |
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07 May 02 - 02:37 PM (#706077) Subject: RE: Hanoi Jane - any songs? From: artbrooks Long ago and far away...30 years and 3 months since I came back from Vietnam. I thought she was an exploited, idiotic, star of jiggle flicks then and I still do, but I didn't hate her then and I don't now. BTW, I think Hilary Clinton is a highly intelligent person who would have made a much better president than doofus. But then I voted for John Anderson when I had the opportunity. |
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07 May 02 - 06:32 PM (#706291) Subject: RE: Hanoi Jane - any songs? From: Abby Sale The best investigator of e-slander & urban legends is certainly David Emery of About.com's Urban Legends. No bone to pick at all. See Clicky It includes this interesting bit referenced in the above-cited prior Jane thread: Claim: Fonda betrayed POWs by turning over slips of paper they gave her to their captors. POWs were beaten and died as a result. Status: FALSE. "It's a figment of somebody's imagination," says Ret. Col. Larry Carrigan, who was shot down over North Vietnam in 1967. He has no idea why the story was attributed to him. "I never met Jane Fonda," he told me. It goes without saying he never handed her a secret message.
He confessed that he did see Fonda once while he was a POW – on film. |
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08 May 02 - 03:23 AM (#706517) Subject: RE: Hanoi Jane - any songs? From: Big Mick Yep, Abby, that is the site I use to check out this stuff. One must ask, if this stuff isn't true then what is the motive for starting and perpetuating an absolute falsehood? The answer seems obvious to me. Mick |
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08 May 02 - 04:53 AM (#706554) Subject: RE: Hanoi Jane - any songs? From: Hrothgar Did the Republicans forgive her because of all that money she stands next to? |