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20 Jun 02 - 11:04 AM (#733665) Subject: Folklore: Elves From: Hollowfox My daughter has become a huge fan of the Lord of the Rings movie and is reading the trilogy. To keep up with her, I'm re-reading it. Last night as I was falling asleep, it occurred to me that pointed ears are a common visual cue for various beings, notably elves. But nowhere in the trilogy are their ears mentioned. Moreover, I can't recall any of the old tales where ears are mentioned regarding elves, fairies, ellefolk, sidhe, or other suchlike beings throughout the world. So, when did this cue start? I've only just started looking into this one, but I'd appreciate any thoughts on this. |
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20 Jun 02 - 11:08 AM (#733667) Subject: RE: Folklore: Elves From: GUEST It was when the Vulcans first visited Earth |
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20 Jun 02 - 11:12 AM (#733669) Subject: RE: Folklore: Elves From: Mrrzy Pictures of elves in my old books always had pointy ears... what about the Irish? Is this a Celtic thing, perhaps - pixies and Little People? |
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20 Jun 02 - 11:35 AM (#733684) Subject: RE: Folklore: Elves From: GUEST,JTT Ireland doesn't actually have elves. I think St Patrick must have had something to do with it. Our otherworld is a darker place, a kind of parallel universe with what might loosely be described as sociopaths - people (the Sidhe) who have no sense whatever of good and evil. Then there are bunches of stories about the "good people" (note similarity to Mafia terminology) who do various good or ill deeds to help or hinder humans, like stealing children, leading people astray on hungry grass, tricking musicians, etc. It's an idea to put a lump of butter on a saucer on the windowsill on the festival days, to keep on the right side of the good people. |
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20 Jun 02 - 11:36 AM (#733687) Subject: RE: Folklore: Elves From: IanC Probably started with the Victorian illustrators, most of the odd conceptions about these beings mainly did. Elves are frequently mentioned in Anglo-Saxon literature (I don't know about Irish) but they are generally thought of as wicked creatures ... cows and humans, for example, are "elf-shot", meaning they were suffering from inexplicable sudden illnesses. Tolkien was professor of Anglo Saxon at Oxford, so he will have known this literature intimately. He chose to depict elves differently for his own reasons.
Cheers! |
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20 Jun 02 - 12:23 PM (#733719) Subject: RE: Folklore: Elves From: McGrath of Harlow I entered "pointed ears" into Google, and up came this site, which supplies just one quote from Tolkien which indicates that he envisaged some elves at any rate as having pointed ears: "The Quendian ears were more pointed and leaf-shaped". (Though possibly he is just saying that they had more pointed ears than other elves...) |
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20 Jun 02 - 05:03 PM (#733902) Subject: RE: Folklore: Elves From: Sorcha Interesting question. Never occured to me........I'll have to do some digging. |
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20 Jun 02 - 08:10 PM (#734006) Subject: RE: Folklore: Elves From: KateG I'd agree with IanC that it's probably a Victorian conceit. After all, they were the ones who decided that the Vikings wore horned battle helmets based on Bronze Age Celtic ceremonial headgear. And they've been stuck with them ever since. Maybe someone should write a song about it. |
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20 Jun 02 - 08:27 PM (#734012) Subject: RE: Folklore: Elves From: McGrath of Harlow Some people might wonder if there was any point in doing that... |
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21 Jun 02 - 02:48 AM (#734110) Subject: RE: Folklore: Elves From: GUEST,ozmacca 'ear, 'ear |
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21 Jun 02 - 04:04 AM (#734125) Subject: RE: Folklore: Elves From: fogie For our days are ending and our years failing I will cross the wide water lonely sailing Long are the waves on the last shore falling Sweet are the voices on the far shore calling. In Erensea in elvenhome that no man may discover, Where the ears grow long, Land of my people forever. Its absolutely amazing what you think you can remember, and how it brings you back. |
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21 Jun 02 - 05:59 PM (#734422) Subject: RE: Folklore: Elves From: CapriUni That's vaguely familiar, fogey... What is't quoted from? My suspician is that the pointy ear thing did start with the Victorian illustrators, perhaps in order to associate elves with wild animals (this was a time whe "Nature" as a concept was highly romanticized, too), and not just make them out to be miniature people... But that's just a guess on my part. |
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21 Jun 02 - 06:14 PM (#734436) Subject: RE: Folklore: Elves From: Liz the Squeak Ah, but that's long ears Fogie, like the tribe of Long Ears on Easter Island - i.e., those with elongated earlobes. The Short Ears had short or no ear lobes... doesn't make them elves.... Does this mean Peter Pan is an elf? He has very pointy ears in the Disney movie.... but not in my illustrated Peter Pan, published in the 1920's..... LTS |
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21 Jun 02 - 07:21 PM (#734481) Subject: RE: Folklore: Elves From: Gareth Possibly a digression - But read Pratchet's "Lords and Ladies", apart from the usual satire on Monarchy and "Morris Dancing" it has some interesting views and analasis on Folk Ledgeds on Elves and Faeries. Gareth |
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21 Jun 02 - 08:49 PM (#734536) Subject: RE: Folklore: Elves From: McGrath of Harlow That quote of fogie was Tolkien, CapriUni (with a dropped y to turn years into ears).
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21 Jun 02 - 10:37 PM (#734575) Subject: RE: Folklore: Elves From: CapriUni Okay, thanks McGrath... |
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21 Jun 02 - 11:30 PM (#734595) Subject: RE: Folklore: Elves From: greg stephens I think some of the nastier Hieronimous Bosch creatures had pointy ears (I'm speaking from memory here). That would take you back a few years from Victorian if I'm remembering right. |
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22 Jun 02 - 02:08 AM (#734628) Subject: RE: Folklore: Elves From: Liz the Squeak The Devil is usually portrayed as having pointy ears, and the original pilot for Star Trek (the one WITHOUT Shitner) was told to tone down the pointy Vulcan ears because it was thought he'd look too alien and devilish.... Mr Roddenberry said 'that's the point' and the ears stayed. LTS |
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22 Jun 02 - 03:09 AM (#734638) Subject: RE: Folklore: Elves From: mouldy #2 daughter (rising 16) has seen the LOTR film many times and is reading the trilogy for at least the second time through in succession. I have Orlando Bloom's face all over my computer and her bedroom. This is a roundabout way of saying that today we are going shopping, and she wants to buy some elf (for this substitute Spock, I suppose) ears and a long wig for the LOTR birthday/sleepover party she is having in a couple of weeks. One of her friends is going as all 4 Hobbits! Andrea |
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22 Jun 02 - 09:15 AM (#734696) Subject: RE: Folklore: Elves From: Fiolar According to the "Dictionary of Celtic Mythology" by James MacKillop - quote: "elf,elves: The familiar dimunutive magic-wielding creature that derives from Teutonic origin has only one close counterpart in the Celtic world, the Welsh "ellyll." unquote. The "ellyll" is described as a "tiny, diaphanous creature from the Welsh fairy world, the closest counterpart to the Teutonic elf." Nowhere is mentioned the shape of the ears. |
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22 Jun 02 - 11:05 AM (#734727) Subject: RE: Folklore: Elves From: K'tilda Here are two links that talk about origins of elfin folklore, descriptions do not include anything about ears from what I saw however: http://www.indigogroup.co.uk/edge/fairies1.htm http://www.isle-of-man.com/manxnotebook/fulltext/folklore/ch03.htm Aren't Tolkien elves taller than humans too? |
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22 Jun 02 - 01:49 PM (#734767) Subject: RE: Folklore: Elves From: Aodh There are the Gaelic "Tuatha De Danann" (Ireland) or the "Sidhean" (Scotland) who could be seen as very close to the Tolkien idea of the "Elder" children, or Elves. In Celtic mythology these beings were some of the first inhabitants of the world, Long befor mortal man came on the seen. They withdrew into Tir nan Og after Mankind defeated them. I think in Ireland they were said to have been Angels that fell to earth, rather than hell, after Lucifers revolt. |
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22 Jun 02 - 02:32 PM (#734784) Subject: RE: Folklore: Elves From: GUEST,Wyrd Sister Gareth - Lords and Ladies is my most favourite of Pratchett's books. The twisted language bit is especially fine (Elves are terrific: they terrify etc) Here's to the long barrow! |
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22 Jun 02 - 02:38 PM (#734786) Subject: RE: Folklore: Elves From: Hollowfox Yes, I figured I'd blame it on the Victorians, too. But where did they get it? My guesses were some Victorian costumer's idea for Midsummer Night's Dream. Or, (more of a reach) King Midas and his ass's ears, and by extension some foggy connection to their interpretation of the cult of Dionysus. But that seemed a reach, even for Victorians. Yes, Mouldy, my 13 year old is quite the fangirl as well. At least they both have good taste in, er, the visual arts. Now, here's some LOTR trivia her friends probably don't have yet. In a collection of essays called Meditations on Middle-Earth (Karen Haber, editor, St Martin's Press, 2001)(not a bad read, by the way), there is an interview with Greg and Tim Hildebrandt, the illustrators. In the interview, Greg said that there's nothing in Tolkein about having pointed eard. Tolkein said they have "sharp ears", but he didn't say pointed. that was the Brothers H visual interpretation. (I'm paraphrasing rather than quoting). They also told a bit about working with Lester Del Rey, an expert on Tolkein. Apparently they're responsible for the pointed ears on hobbits. And for Legolas' blond hair as well. ("...we painted him with blond hair and dressed him in light colors. Lester looked at it and said, "No, he has dark hair..but leave it!") |
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22 Jun 02 - 07:41 PM (#734937) Subject: RE: Folklore: Elves From: 53 I have a Leprchaun living in my mobile home park. You should see him, you would laugh your ass off. Bob |
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23 Jun 02 - 01:37 AM (#735048) Subject: RE: Folklore: Elves From: hesperis Sharp and pointed are words close in meaning... so the purpose of illustrating a being with "sharp" ears as having "pointed" ears may have been done symbolically. It would emphasize the purpose, as well as emphasize the alienness. (After all, who of us has actually seen an elf?) |
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23 Jun 02 - 02:10 AM (#735058) Subject: RE: Folklore: Elves From: Kaleea GUEST has a point, (sorry) inasmuchas there is a ST novel about the time that Spock & Dr. McCoy are sent back in time, and since it is in the stoneage (so to speak) Vulcans do not have logic yet. Therefore Spock "mates" with the lovely Marriette Hartley (see thread on spelling faux pas) creating a son. Therefore, we can only surmise that decendants of Spock's son intermingled with some rather short folks, and thus, pointy eared elfen like folks! |
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23 Jun 02 - 02:49 AM (#735065) Subject: RE: Folklore: Elves From: mouldy I now have an "Arwen Evenstar" raring to go, and have also found out that she has downloaded Elvish into the fonts. As you say, Hollowfox, she could be into much worse! I have quite a few books on mediaeval carving, and I can't recollect any pointy eared people in these. Come to think of it, no elves or fairies appear at all. As most of the work was done in ecclesiastical premises, it's hardly surprising! I can't think of any painters who did any either. It really does seem to be a 19th century invention and seems to coincide with the writing down of old tales and the writing of new fairy stories, and their illustration, which wouldn't have been done in earlier publications apart from an occasional frontispiece. The 19th century saw the development of colour printing techniques and the imaginations of the illustrators of the latter half of the century could thus have full flight. Given the interest in archaeology, legends and the supernatural that was prevalent at the time, they had a very appreciative public! Andrea |
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23 Jun 02 - 05:01 AM (#735076) Subject: RE: Folklore: Elves From: Manitas_at_home Andrea, You should look at a few cathedrals in England. Plenty of otherworld creatures there - 'specially green men. I can't say I've noticed any pointed ears though.
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23 Jun 02 - 06:23 AM (#735093) Subject: RE: Folklore: Elves From: CapriUni Well, Manitas, as LTS pointed out, the Devil was portrayed with pointed ears, wasn't he? But I don't know if those portrayals were inside the churches.. |
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23 Jun 02 - 08:40 AM (#735115) Subject: RE: Folklore: Elves From: Malcolm Douglas The conventional "devil" image was based on Classical representations of the god Pan and of the Satyrs; both appear with pointed ears quite often in Greek and Roman art. In 15th century Europe, classical mythological subjects became very fashionable (not least because they could legitimately include nudes) and pointy-eared satyrs again appeared regularly. This may very well have led, later on, to the extension of pointy-earedness to other denizens of the supernatural world, at least so far as painters and illustrators were concerned. |
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23 Jun 02 - 02:09 PM (#735248) Subject: RE: Folklore: Elves From: Liz the Squeak Manitas, I think I've probably been in more churches than you, and if you doubt that, go look at our bookshelves. There are many examples of pointy eared, man faced creatures in churches, just not the classical pointy eared, horned one.... The church I was christened in has a lovely one about 14 feet up the inside of the tower wall, see the book 'Sacred Dorset' for picture. LTS (who is married to Manitas in case some hadn't twigged) |
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23 Jun 02 - 07:59 PM (#735427) Subject: RE: Folklore: Elves From: McGrath of Harlow "The twisted language bit is especially fine (Elves are terrific: they terrify etc)" - I'm afraid that isn't twisted language, Wyrd Sister, though perhaps it's a bit pedantic these days. Check a dictionary for the primary/older meaning of terrific, which is exactly that.(Like "awful" meaning "awe inspiring".
Here's alink to a site with a picture of the Lincoln Imp, who resides in Lincoln Cathedral, pointed ears and all, and is the patron of the city's football club. |
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24 Jun 02 - 10:00 AM (#735706) Subject: RE: Folklore: Elves From: CapriUni aren't the images of elves, imps, sprites, and the like, descended from the images of the Greek god Pan and the Roman god Faunus -- both gods of the wild places and the forces of nature? They both, if I recall correctly were pictured with goats' ears... Goats' ears (at least, those with stiff upright ears, not floppy like nubian goats) aren't exactly pointed, but they are more or less triagular in shape (a bit like a deer's ears) -- not the ears we associate with elves, in any case. Many years ago, I bought a copy of A Field Guide to the Little People (the copyright date is 1977, but I don't remember if that was the year I got it). Structured like an ordinary field guide, it gives physical discriptions, habitat, and habits of 79 "species" of elf from all over Europe (using the broadest definition of elf as a supernatural being that is neither god nor demon who shares this world with us). Interestingly, there are hardly any pointed ears mentioned in the lists of identifying characteristics, but many poited-ish ears in the illustrations.... |
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24 Jun 02 - 10:11 AM (#735712) Subject: RE: Folklore: Elves From: GUEST,Desdemona at work I'm a mediaevalist, and I very often hear people comment on mediaeval shoes, etc., as "looking like elves' shoes", etc. What the Victorians (grrrr---those pesky Victorians) decided to call the "Gothic" style, ie, a fondness for slender, pointed decorative shapes, is visually very representative of the Middle Ages in most people's imaginations. Since fairy tales, folk lore, and even modern fantasy literature are often placed in quasi-mediaeval settings, I wonder how much affect this has had on the convention of pointy-eared elf & fairy folk? |