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03 Jul 02 - 03:26 PM (#741687) Subject: Pictish folksong translated From: GUEST,XGuest Sensational new discoveries have been made at an archaeological dig at the site of a Roman army camp near Hadrian's Wall. When the legions were evacuated, orders were sent out to destroy all valuable military records. However, in the far-flung camps, lazy army bureaucrats simply pitched all the files into the nearest bog. Now archaeologists are recovering all the records, preserved in the highly tannic bog water.
Among the latest discoveries is what appears to be a Latin translation of a Pictish folk-song. No doubt the lonely legionaries on sentry duty on the wall heard the melodic strains drifting on the wind from the Pictish encampments to the north. Roman soldiers must have learned this traditional Pictish melody, which is the earliest folksong recorded in the British Isles.
Of particular interest is the chorus of syllabic vocables, remarkably similar to the Gaelic walking song which is not found in written records until almost 1000 years later. In fact, a remarkable similar chorus of vocables: I\ aigh i\ aigh o\ can be found in a walking song from Skye, "Tha baile aig sean-Mhac a' Domhnuill", in the Frances Tolmie collection.
Following is a transcription of the original manuscript:
Senex Macdonaldus habebat fundum, EIEIO
Senex Macdonaldus habebat fundum, EIEIO
Senex Macdonaldus habebat fundum, EIEIO
Senex Macdonaldus habebat fundum, EIEIO
etc.
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03 Jul 02 - 03:29 PM (#741691) Subject: RE: Pictish folksong translated From: MMario Didn't I see this entire post in an SCA archive somewhere? |
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03 Jul 02 - 03:39 PM (#741694) Subject: RE: Pictish folksong translated From: pavane Ha Ha (I would have preferred the joke if it were better disguised.) PS Surely WAUKING, not WALKING? |
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03 Jul 02 - 03:40 PM (#741696) Subject: RE: Pictish folksong translated From: MMario I'm sure it's a "walking song" - suitable for hiking.
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03 Jul 02 - 08:19 PM (#741854) Subject: RE: Pictish folksong translated From: little john cameron Hahaha,ye had me gaun there till we got tae the sang. weeyin |
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03 Jul 02 - 08:36 PM (#741855) Subject: RE: Pictish folksong translated From: GUEST lol |
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04 Jul 02 - 05:30 AM (#742025) Subject: RE: Pictish folksong translated From: Scabby Douglas Hmmm ... very interesting. obviously Macdonaldus is a Latin translation of Mac Donald - "The son of Donald". Now Donald, and the prefix Mac are both Gaelic - Q-Celtic- and as far as we can tell, the Picts and other occupants of Northern Britain at the time of the Romans spoke Brythonic - p=Celtic - similar to modern Welsh. Now... given that we're told that Macdonaldus was sufficiently well-established to own a farm. Current thinking is that the Gaels from Ireland did not begin wholescale settlement in the far west of Scotland until the 5th century. This could revolutionise our understanding of Roman period Scotland. Thanks for this Xguest Keep up the good work Cheers
Steven |
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04 Jul 02 - 05:37 AM (#742029) Subject: RE: Pictish folksong translated From: Declan I'm reminded of a cartoon - I think it might have been the Wizard of Id, where two characters are watching a new set of twin arches going up over a new shopping mall and one says to the other "I rember him when all he had was a moo moo here and a moo moo there". That's a different Old McDonald's you'll enjoy. |
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04 Jul 02 - 05:46 AM (#742035) Subject: RE: Pictish folksong translated From: Wolfgang Recent thread, same theme Wolfgang |
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04 Jul 02 - 06:53 AM (#742054) Subject: RE: Pictish folksong translated From: greg stephens Scabby Doug raises a very interesting point here. We are not told the exact Latin that confirms the "Pictish" attribution, but assumingit was used it is certainly true that the word "Pictish" was used very loosely in those days. Quite possibly the collector who made these notes was not that knowledgable on ethnomusicology and used the term erroneously in referring to Macdonaldus. Of more interest is Scabby Doug's point that there shouldn't be anybody called Macdonaldus near the Roman Wall at the time. I would suggest the possibility of seasonal migratory agricultural workers, who came over regularly from Donegal and Antrim. However, there is a much more intriguing possibility which we have to consider seriously.It is often assumed erroneously that the Romans never got to Ireland. In fact, thoughthey never made any serious colonisation attempts, there were many exporatory trips, and recent archaeology has in fact uncovered temporary Roman forts thrown up during those forays. So perhaps the song collector had in fact been on one of these expeditions and picked the song up in Ireland, in which case we may have here the earliest known Irish song, albeit in Latin translation. |
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04 Jul 02 - 06:59 AM (#742056) Subject: RE: Pictish folksong translated From: Scabby Douglas Oh, yeah right... here we fecking go again - we've just established the earliest known song of Caledonian origin, and the Irish have nicked it already... Figures...
Cheers Steven |
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04 Jul 02 - 07:19 AM (#742065) Subject: RE: Pictish folksong translated From: GUEST,JTT Pict uresque natives. Sure the Irish didn't have to feck Scots stuff - the Irish *were* Scots - or rather the other way around. The word "Scot" originally meant Irish, and Scotland was colonised from Ireland. |
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04 Jul 02 - 10:11 AM (#742193) Subject: RE: Pictish folksong translated From: Scabby Douglas Read the thread JJT - you might see that this is ALREADY MENTIONED!!!! Cheers Steven |
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04 Jul 02 - 10:43 AM (#742213) Subject: RE: Pictish folksong translated From: greg stephens JTT: you obviously haven't spotted this, but I think there is an element of (rather laboured) humour on this thread. |
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04 Jul 02 - 12:21 PM (#742282) Subject: RE: Pictish folksong translated From: dermod in salisbury Some linguistic confustion seems to have arisen in this thread, which I can resolve. Ictish was spoken in Roman times in two variants. P-ictish and Q-ictish. The latter, sometimes call Quic-tish, or quick-dish is obviously the textual link to McDonaldus. Whereas P-ictish, later corrupted to pish-tek, or pish-take is wholly unconnected to the recently found documents referred to. I hope this clears things up. |
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04 Jul 02 - 12:29 PM (#742289) Subject: RE: Pictish folksong translated From: Paul from Hull *ROFL* Yer all mad...*G* |