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20 Sep 02 - 05:38 PM (#788311) Subject: song of the seals -- discussion(add lyr) From: MAG This song got a passing mention in the John McCormack thread, which was an interesting bit of synchronicity for me. I sang it during the traditional singing workshop led by Rob Folsum at the Tumbleweeds Fest over Labor Day (thanks Rob, whether you read this or not for a fine workshop). I learned it a lifetime ago off of a Jean Redpath LP. And since the words don't seem to be in the DB, here they are, copied right off the jacket (Song of the Seals, Philo PH 1054):^^^
A sea maid sings on yonder reef
Coir an oir an oir an oir O
The wandering ploughman halts his plough (Chorus)
Was it a dream? Were all asleep? (Chorus) No credit is given, so it must be public domain though it sounds composed. The intriguing question Rob posed is this: the verses may be Victorian rommanticism, but the chorus sounds older. Maybe an older song. Does anyone have pointers on how I might pursue this further? MA, back to my addiction, after a heavy time at work which sucked all my spare and not-so-spare energy.
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20 Sep 02 - 05:51 PM (#788315) Subject: RE: song of the seals -- discussion(add lyr) From: Susan of DT It is in the Digital Tradition. The search on line is a little tempermental. It picked it up from a phrase, but not from "seals" |
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21 Sep 02 - 04:27 AM (#788435) Subject: RE: song of the seals -- discussion(add lyr) From: rich-joy my v. old taped copy of Jean Redpath's Song of the Seals has my hand-written reference that reads : "Bouton and Bantock's modern classic", but I have no recollection of anymore than that ... Cheers! R-J |
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21 Sep 02 - 05:16 AM (#788438) Subject: RE: song of the seals -- discussion(add lyr) From: John MacKenzie On my old LP of the 1963 Newport Folk Festival, this song is described thus. "The Song of the Seals" is an "art-song" setting of a Hebridean chant, which the story goes, has been used to charm seals. On the recording there is also an unwelcome addition, in the form of a passing aeroplane. Fine song nonetheless. Failte....Giok |
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21 Sep 02 - 01:03 PM (#788542) Subject: RE: song of the seals -- discussion(add lyr) From: MAG The above note is not on the 1978 Philo LP. That looks like the clue to pursue. Thanks! I don't suppose it was documented ... |
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21 Sep 02 - 02:28 PM (#788593) Subject: RE: song of the seals -- discussion(add lyr) From: Malcolm Douglas As Rich-Joy suggests, the song was written (as Song To the Seals) by Harold Boulton (1859-1935) and Granville Bantock (1868-1946). It is not public domain and is still in copyright, though a good few performers have ignorantly passed it off as traditional. The pianist Stephen Hough, who is among many who have recorded it (with attribution), quotes from a printed score: "The refrain of this song was actually used recently on an Hebridean island by a singer who thereby attracted a quantity of seals to gather round and listen intently to the singing".
This is not evidence, incidentally, that the melody of the refrain was taken from tradition (though it's not impossible); there are always such stories. Marjorie Kennedy-Fraser attracted an audience of seals in the North Bay of Barra by singing The Seal-Woman's Sea Joy to them. |
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21 Sep 02 - 03:13 PM (#788609) Subject: RE: song of the seals -- discussion(add lyr) From: Áine Dear Malcolm, Do you have the lyrics to The Seal-Woman's Sea Joy? If so, could you please post them to the forum? Thanks, Áine |
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21 Sep 02 - 04:40 PM (#788653) Subject: ADD: Seal-Woman's Sea-Joy From: Malcolm Douglas They aren't very interesting, I'm afraid; except perhaps to seals. Ewan MacVicar posted them here some years ago, when someone was wanting information about a recording by Mary McLaughlin which included the song (rather eccentrically spelled Yundah: RE: Yundah: Hebridean Selkie chant??? I may as well quote them again, and add the tune.
THE SEAL-WOMAN'S SEA-JOY
Ionn da ionn do
As quoted in Songs of the Hebrides, Kenneth MacLeod and Marjorie Kennedy-Fraser, vol.II. (But here re-quoted from David Thomson, The People of the Sea, 1954).
X:1
I don't know the original source; something else to try to remember to check at the library. Kenneth MacLeod added the following (rather cutesy) account of the background:
"The Isleman in whom goodness is stronger than love, finding the sealwoman bathing in the creek, will let her go back to her own natural element: the Islesman in whom love is stronger than goodness cunningly hides her skin, and weds her on the third night after he has found her. -Kenneth MacLeod, The Road to the Isles, 1927. |
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21 Sep 02 - 05:17 PM (#788675) Subject: RE: song of the seals -- discussion(add lyr) From: Art Thieme I mentioned it in the John McCormack thread. It is on an LP we have: THE GREAT JOHN McCORMACK on Fiesta Records. 1619 Broadway New York, N.Y.
It is credited to Bolton--Bantock---from Songs O The Western Isles Art Thieme |
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23 Sep 02 - 11:20 AM (#789603) Subject: RE: Lyr Add: song of the seals -- discussion From: MAG Dear Malcolm: copyright is an important question and I do not disregard it. At that time here in the states, the rule on it was: life plus 50 -- i.e., fifty years after the death of the writer or composer. What was/is the British copyright deadline? If it was extended, when and by whom? I do have a more jaundiced attitude toward anyone milking a cash cow long after the original artists are gone, especially if the driver in the song really is traditional; hence my original question: is the chorus an older song? Did the composer lift a fisherman's chant? This is what I want to know. Yours, MA
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23 Sep 02 - 11:41 AM (#789617) Subject: RE: Lyr Add: song of the seals -- discussion From: Áine Dear Malcolm, Thank you very much for providing all the information and tune for The Seal-Woman's Sea Joy. The lyrics themselves may not be very interesting, but your excellent notes about the song are wonderful. Thanks again, Áine |
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24 Sep 02 - 10:44 PM (#790710) Subject: RE: Lyr Add: song of the seals -- discussion From: Malcolm Douglas The DT file SONG OF THE SEALS doesn't credit the writers, so is another candidate for an update. An earlier thread on the subject did include the credits, however: Tune Req: Jean Redpath's Song of the Seals. Stewie quoted the relevant bit of Jean Redpath's sleevenotes, too: "This rather arty song (poem by Harold Boulton; music Granville Bantock) has a chorus which touches something so close to the heart that it has been 'recognised' by those born as far from the Hebrides as the Calabrian Hills of Italy. I learned it from the singing of Father (now Canon) Sidney McEwan." That comment suggests strongly that the chorus isn't traditional at all, though many people may fondly imagine it to be. Bantock certainly used Hebridean idioms in some of his compositions, but there seems to be no evidence that the melody here was not his own. Copyright in Britain is, I think, "life plus 70 years", but I can't promise I'm right about that. |
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24 Sep 02 - 11:15 PM (#790718) Subject: RE: Lyr Add: song of the seals -- discussion From: MAG I've checked with a coupla bands which have recorded this and they said a copyright search netted zilch. They DID search. I strongly doubt it is still under copyright, but am ready to stand corrected. Here in the states, being a much younger culture, we think of 19 c. songs such as Clemmentine or Sweet Betsy AS traditional -- tho' we know where they come from. -- MA |
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24 Sep 02 - 11:39 PM (#790730) Subject: RE: Lyr Add: song of the seals -- discussion From: Bob Bolton G'day MAG, Certainly, at the time of this song's composition, the British copyright endured for 50 years after the death of the author(s). The American situation was of no consequence, as they were still practicing the piracy on which they built the country. Nothing copyrighted anywhere else was respected by USA - nor could it be copyrighted there. It was only in the mid 1950s that America was finally dragged, kicking & screaming, into the Bern Convention. Malcolm Douglas: I love the story of Marjorie Kennedy-Fraser charming an audience of seals with The Seal-Woman's Sea Joy. I had a much more mundane parallel a few years back: I was walking near a friend's orchard in the Southern Highlands of New South Wales and passed a small mob of Angora goats ... on the other side of a fence, on a neighbouring farm. I seem to have started singing The Billygoat Overland (a folk setting of a 'Banjo' Paterson poem ... and when I wandered on ... I found the goats had leapt the fence and were all following me! It was rather embarassing having to find the farm's main gate and lead the goats back to their 'owner'! Regard(les), Bob Bolton |
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25 Sep 02 - 04:16 AM (#790812) Subject: RE: Lyr Add: song of the seals -- discussion From: IanC Copyright in the UK (and EC) is now death + 70 years. Since Sir Harold Boulton died in 1935, it will be out of copyright on 31st December 2005. :-) |
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25 Sep 02 - 11:26 AM (#791018) Subject: RE: Lyr Add: song of the seals -- discussion From: MAG Changes in the law are not usually retroactive; IF it was life +50 then, unless renewed, it is expired. We've probably beaten this particular one to death; it is important, and, as can be seen, pretty tricky. MAG yankee born and bred I love the country, if not the government |
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25 Sep 02 - 11:32 AM (#791025) Subject: RE: Lyr Add: song of the seals -- discussion From: IanC MAG In this case, European law appears to be retroactive. :-) |
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25 Sep 02 - 11:41 AM (#791031) Subject: RE: Lyr Add: song of the seals -- discussion From: MAG (BG) back atcha, IanC. I am still interested in pointers to the background of the song, and I KNOW the difference between speculation and evidence. I'm a LIBRARIAN, as she says in the movie. |
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09 Apr 03 - 02:49 PM (#929758) Subject: RE: song of the seals -- discussion From: Felipa For another seal song from "Songs of the Hebrides", and story from K MacLeod, see The Seal-Woman's Croon (An Cadal Trom) for other Gaelic language songs about sea-maidens or seal-women who take human form, search for the threads about An Mhaighdean Mhara. for more about "Ionn da" chants for attracting seals see RE: Yundah: Hebridean Selkie chant??? (already cited by Malcolm Douglas). I have a current query at that thread concerning the origin of a "Yundah" song also, can someone find and supply the Gaelic lyrics for "An Cadal Trom" and for a song from the days humans ate seals, said to be the song sung by a seal in North Uist: Hó i hó i... ...It is a pity that in this land/They eat human beings in the form of food...". English lyrics and tune are given in David Thomson, The People of the Sea - - or for any songs mentioned in this thread? |
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09 Apr 03 - 06:57 PM (#929980) Subject: RE: Lyr Add: song of the seals -- discussion From: Malcolm Douglas The Gaelic lyric for Hó i Hó i is given with the staff notation in Thomson's book, as is An Cadal Trom (The Seal-woman's Croon; though in the latter case I don't know whether there may be more text in Songs of the Hebrides, which I don't have). |
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10 Apr 03 - 07:02 AM (#930320) Subject: RE: Lyr Add: song of the seals -- discussion From: GUEST,Philippa I don't have the book with me, but I think the edition I borrowed only has the English (Thomson often mentions that he doesn't have the Gaelic himself). But the Gaelic for the song with the Hó hi hó chorus is in a couple of the Mudcat threads for which links are given at the top of this page; I must check to see if it corresponds to the English in Thomson. |
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10 Apr 03 - 01:40 PM (#930521) Subject: RE: Lyr Add: song of the seals -- discussion From: Felipa sorry Malcolm, you're right about the wee Gaelic words under the music (I'm using paperback edition A6 pages) but my edition doesn't have Cadal trom in any language, nor Seal Woman's Joy. |
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22 Feb 12 - 05:42 AM (#3311758) Subject: RE: Lyr Add: song of the seals -- discussion From: GUEST,Sara Knight What is the context of the song? What meaning is the composer trying to convey? ABout the ploughman... etc |
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23 Feb 12 - 05:31 AM (#3312018) Subject: RE: Lyr Add: song of the seals -- discussion From: Ross Campbell Correction to second line, second verse:- "The wandering ploughman halts his plough The maid her MILking stays And sheep on hillside, bird on bough Pause and listen in amaze" |
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08 Aug 12 - 04:26 AM (#3387456) Subject: RE: Lyr Add: song of the seals -- discussion From: GUEST,Andy Briggs Corrections to third verse (these are from the original score): "Was it a dream? Were all asleep? Or did she cease her STRAIN? For the seals with a splash dive into the deep and the world goes on again BUT lingers the refrain ..." I guess we will never disentagle whether the refrain is traditional or 'faux-traditional'. Either way it's a fine and captivating piece. I'm learning the piano part at present. Seems like great writing to me - it's always so impressive when such an economy of notes/gestures has such a rich effect. |
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08 Aug 12 - 04:17 PM (#3387741) Subject: RE: Lyr Add: song of the seals -- discussion From: GUEST,MG Who are the seal families? I am told by P. O'Shea that it is the O'Sheas...certainly the ones of Dingle Peninsula. I was asking to get that confirmed by someone from the east coast with strong Irish connections..and he gave me another name entirely..think it started with a K..not Kinnean..not Kinney..what could it be? |
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29 Jan 14 - 10:46 AM (#3596527) Subject: RE: Lyr Add: song of the seals -- discussion From: GUEST Refresh- wonderful to see the scholarship of mighty Mudcatters of yore. |
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10 Feb 14 - 12:15 PM (#3600094) Subject: RE: Lyr Add: song of the seals -- discussion From: Bearheart So glad to find this thread though I don't think I can get access to the books cited. I have a particular interest in seals and the selkie legends, and have written two songs about them (the selkies). Probably no way to let Guest MG know it, since the thread is 2 years old, but one of the Irish families associated with the selchies is the subject of the movie "Secret of Roan Inish" and the book it was taken from, The Secret of Ron Mor Skerry, by Rosalie K. Fry. Coneely is thatfamily name I believe. There is a lovely link here to a Scottish family believed to be descended from a selkie-- beautifully told: http://www.bletherskite.net/2011/04/08/clan-macpheemacfie-descended-from-a-selkie/ |
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10 Feb 14 - 01:20 PM (#3600118) Subject: RE: Lyr Add: song of the seals -- discussion From: Jack Campin You can easily get David Thomson's People of the Sea - it's in print in paperback. It has all the known Scottish seal songs in an appendix, with notation. Fabulous book. |
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10 Feb 14 - 02:24 PM (#3600138) Subject: RE: Lyr Add: song of the seals -- discussion From: GUEST In passing, the Charter of Fundamental Rights makes it illegal to create retrospective law. |
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10 Feb 14 - 04:46 PM (#3600179) Subject: RE: Lyr Add: song of the seals -- discussion From: Bearheart Thanks Jack I will look for it... does it have music as well as words? |
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10 Feb 14 - 05:10 PM (#3600186) Subject: RE: Lyr Add: song of the seals -- discussion From: Jack Campin ..."with notation"... for all the traditional tunes relating to seals that I know of. |
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10 Feb 14 - 11:06 PM (#3600273) Subject: RE: Lyr Add: song of the seals -- discussion From: Bearheart Lovely! Thanks again. |
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15 Feb 14 - 12:53 PM (#3601763) Subject: RE: Lyr Add: song of the seals -- discussion From: Jim Dixon Musical notation of SEAL-WOMAN'S SEA-JOY is viewable online in the following book, digitized by Google: Sea Tangle: Some More Songs of the Hebrides, collected, edited, translated and arranged by Marjory Kennedy-Fraser and Kenneth MacLeod (London & New York: Boosey & Co., Ltd., 1913), page 22. —or at least it is viewable in the US. (I understand Google sometimes blocks certain things from certain countries depending on how it interprets the copyright laws of that country.) |
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15 Feb 14 - 05:38 PM (#3601818) Subject: RE: Lyr Add: song of the seals -- discussion From: Stewart Here is Paddy Graber's recording of this from his CD "Paddy Graber - The Craic was Great" Cheers. S. in Seattle |
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18 Nov 14 - 08:48 AM (#3678068) Subject: RE: Lyr Add: song of the seals -- discussion From: GUEST I'm looking for the lyrics of ORAN MU'N GHRUAGAICH-MHARA(the seal-maiden) probably in Ethel Bassin "The Old Songs of Skye: Frances Tolmie and her Circle". 1997 Jo Morrison sings in "A Waulking Tour of Scotland" 2000 grazie |
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18 Nov 14 - 10:14 AM (#3678096) Subject: RE: Lyr Add: song of the seals -- discussion From: Jack Campin I have that book at home, will post in a couple of days if nobody else does. |
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19 Nov 14 - 04:09 AM (#3678280) Subject: RE: Lyr Add: song of the seals -- discussion From: GUEST nice! here is what I know The Seal-Maiden (Gruagach-mhara) Frances Tolmie (1840–1926), nata a Skye fu una prolifica collezionista di canzoni delle Isole Ebridi, così un centinaio delle melodie vennero pubblicate dal Folk-Song Society (Journal of the Folk-Song Society, 16), materiale confluito nel libro di Ethel Bassin "The Old Songs of Skye: Frances Tolmie and her Circle". 1997 che così scrive "In the Journal Miss Tolmie remarks that her pleasure in these old wive's songs was considered very odd by her contemporaries, 'for they were not deemed "poetry" or worthy of notice by song-collectors of that period'. Some of her elders, fortunately, were of her own way of thinking, notably her aunt, Mrs Hector Mackenzie (Annabella Tolmie), whose only son, John Tolmie Mackenzie was harbour- master at Dunvegan as well as being factor to MacLeod of MacLeod." 'The Seal-Maiden (Gruagach-mhara)' è una "mermaid song" in gaelico scozzese dal titolo "oran mu'n Ghruagaich-mhara". Khatarine Briggs nel suo "Dizionario di fate, gnomi e folletti" parla dei Gruagach maschi delle Highlands scozzesi paragonandoli ai Brownie, belli e slanciati, elegantemente vestiti di rosso e dotati di capelli biondi, dediti alla sorveglianza del bestiame. La maggior parte però sono brutti e trasandati e come i Brownie aiutano gli uomini nei lavori domestici e agricoli. E tuttavia il termine più spesso indica una "fanciulla" Nelle sue ricerche nel folklore scozzese Stuart McHardy ha tracciato un complesso profilo del "Gruagach" " The Scottish supernatural helper, the Gruagach, has generally been presented as a form of the better-known "brownie". In fact what we seem to find in the Gruagach are remnants of traditions that are of extreme antiquity and are perhaps directly linked to ancient pagan belief in the specific form of Mother Goddess worship. Much of the material considered here came to my notice in the research for a study on the Nine Maidens, a motif that occurs with startling frequency in Classical, Celtic, Norse and other mythological and legendary sources. In the course of my researches I came across references to the Gruagach as possibly being linked to other beings and was intrigued." A Gruagach haunted the 'Island House' (Tigh an Eilein, so called from being at first surrounded with water), the principal residence in the island, from time immemorial till within the present century. She was never called Glaistig, but Gruagach and Gruagach mhara (sea-maid) by the islanders. Tradition represents her as a little woman with long yellow hair, but a sight of her was rarely obtained. She staid in the attics, and the doors of the rooms in which she was heard working were locked at the time. She was heard putting the house in order when strangers were to come, however unexpected otherwise their arrival might be. She pounded the servants when they neglected their work. (Superstitions of the Highlands and Islands of Scotland by John Gregorson Campbell 1900) Così scrive Ethel Bassin The *Gruagach* here is a female. Although a 'maid of the sea', she must not be pictured as the conventional golden-haired nude terminating in a fish's tail. The spectator, while searching for sheep, sees a grey-robed maiden sitting on a distant rock. Raising her head, she stretches herself and assumes the form of the 'animal without horns'. Then 'she went cleaving the sea on every side...towards the spacious region of the bountiful ones'. Although the literal word 'seal' is not used, 'the hornless animal' whose form the mermaid took, one may suppose to be a seal. The 'grey robe' of the maiden further points to her seal character, the seal being often described as 'grey'. 'In the superstitious belief of the North,' says Mr W.T. Dennison in his *Orcadian Sketch-book*, the seal held a far higher place than any of the lower animals, and had the power of assuming human form and faculties ... every true descendent of the Norseman looks upon the seal as a kind of second-cousin in disgrace." La melodia proviene dall'Isola di Barra The song is not on YouTube but I find an mp3 here http://www.triharpskel.com/sound/wt/05-Oran-Mun-Ghruagaich.mp3 |
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19 Nov 14 - 04:16 AM (#3678282) Subject: RE: Lyr Add: song of the seals -- discussion From: GUEST Sorry first time I posted on Mudcat and forget "etiquette" Cattia from Italy myblog here http://terreceltiche.altervista.org/ grazie |
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19 Nov 14 - 07:25 AM (#3678307) Subject: RE: Lyr Add: song of the seals -- discussion From: maeve Cattia, welcome to Mudcat. Your terreceltiche blog has many good songs! Maeve |
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03 Aug 20 - 06:57 AM (#4067093) Subject: RE: Lyr Add: song of the seals -- discussion From: Cattia Here is my list about seals )from Terre Celtiche Blog in https://terreceltiche.altervista.org/sea-song/creature-del-mare-nella-mitologia-celtica/ AILEIN DUINN AN IONNDRAINN MHARA (SEA LONGING) Ann an Caolas Od Odrum A’ Mhaighdeann Bharrach (John MacMillian -1880-1951) An mhaighdean mhara An ròn ARRAN BOAT SONG Crònan an Maighdinn-Mhara (MERMAID'S CROON) Great Selkie of Sule Skerry (June Tabor, melodia trad. Orcadi) GREY SILKIE OF SULE SKERRY (Child ballad #113, melodia standard) GREY SILKIE (Jean Redpath, melodia trad. Orcadi) Gruagach-Mhara [The Seal-Maiden] ORAN AN ROIN ORAN NA MAIGHDINN-MHARA Seal-Maiden (Ho eel yo) SEAL WOMAN CROON (AN CADAL TROM) SEAL WOMAN'S SEA-JOY(YUNDAH) Selkie Song (An Mhaighdean Mhara) SONG OF THE SEAL all title is a link to the page where the song is discussed (with lyrics, audio and analysis) Any support is appreciate! |