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22 Jan 99 - 04:25 PM (#55250) Subject: Martin Carthy From: gwenpatricia@hotmail.com I've just heard Martin Carthy sing a song calle 'The Bows(?) of London'. Can anyone tell me where I can find a copy of the lyrics and also a recording of it? Please e-mail me at: gwenpatricia@hotmail.com If you can help. Thanks |
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27 Jan 99 - 03:14 PM (#55955) Subject: RE: Martin Carthy From: Wolfgang a recording is on Carthy/Swarbrick "Life and Limb", Green Linnet #3052, SPD1030, 1993. I'll look for the lyrics tonight. Wolfgang |
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28 Jan 99 - 06:29 AM (#56061) Subject: RE: Martin Carthy From: Wolfgang I don't have the lyrics Martin Carthy actually sings, but here's what he writes on the leaflet coming with the CD: "Ever since I heard Jody Stecher sing a luminous song called "The Wind and Rain" -a version of "The Two Sisters"- I have wanted to sing it. Its overwhelming feature is its concentration on the aspect of the story dealing with the building from the murder victim's remains of a fiddle which then takes on a life of its own and ultimalely unmasks the murderer. Having found my own efforts at singing his to be as unconvincing as my efforts at American songs usually are, I cast around for a tune from this side of the water, came upon The Bows Of London and then tried to stay close to Jody's words. A "bow" is the bend in a river." Patricia, when you enter [twa sisters] in the upper right search window, you get more than one version. Better still, there are two songs in the DT-database, "The wind and Rain" and "Oh, the wind and rain" which are close to what Martin Carthy sings. Of course he has adapted the lyrics a bit, but with these two songs in hand you can easily follow what he sings. Wolfgang |
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14 Sep 99 - 03:00 AM (#114063) Subject: bows of london From: gary skinner Anyone got the lyrics of the bows of london, I havethe song on a Martin Carthy album but I cannot always hear excatly what he is singing |
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14 Sep 99 - 04:03 PM (#114166) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: bows of london From: lamarca Dear Gary - The song is a version of "The Twa Sisters", Child ballad #10; here is a list of all the versions in the DT and Forum: Two Sisters. If you look at some of the other versions, it might help you decipher Martin's decidedly quirky vocalisms. I have the album at home - if you let me know which lines you're missing, I can try to help you out, |
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14 Dec 02 - 05:43 PM (#847476) Subject: Origins: Whence 'The Bows of London'? From: mack/misophist Would anyone be kind enough to tell me the origin of the murder ballad Bows of London? It's not in the Digitrad or the forum history. A Google search yields nada. Mostly, I'd like to know what the hell a 'bow' is. My best guess is that it had something to do with St Mary le Beau Church, as in "born within the sound of Bow bells" to describe a Cockney. That doesn't fit the sense of the song, though. Any one out there know? |
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14 Dec 02 - 05:54 PM (#847481) Subject: RE: Origins: Whence 'The Bows of London'? From: RolyH According to Martin Carthy they are the bends ("Bows") in the River Thames. |
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14 Dec 02 - 06:06 PM (#847484) Subject: RE: Origins: Whence 'The Bows of London'? From: Malcolm Douglas It belongs to the Twa Sisters family (Child 10). There's a lot of related information in the Forum, but the search engine is broken at the moment. Fortunately, most of the DT files and Forum discussions have had lists of links to (most of) the others added. You may as well start with Lyr Req: bows of london It's a very short thread, but working through the links will give you more background information than you ever wanted, I should think. Don't believe everything that people say though; we've had some quite odd ideas come up from time to time. The refrain, by the way, is one of many different ones and is probably of very little significance. |
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14 Dec 02 - 06:24 PM (#847491) Subject: RE: Origins: Whence 'The Bows of London'? From: GUEST The "Bows" are really a tributary of the Thames in an area of London called "Bow", where the river snakes its way to the Thames.That's where the song is set. |
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14 Dec 02 - 06:24 PM (#847492) Subject: RE: Origins: Whence 'The Bows of London'? From: GUEST,Q Not a murder ballad, but a nasty mistress mistreating an apprentice within sound of Bow Bells, and blackmail resulting. "The Crafty London 'Prentice, or Bow Bells." Johnson Ballad 780, ca 1819-1844, Bodelian Library. Also Douce Ballads 3(14b), "The Crafty London Apprentice, or Bow Bells," ca. 1736-1763. Also other copies. Search- Crafty London prentice. Bodleian Library |
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14 Dec 02 - 06:49 PM (#847505) Subject: RE: Origins: Whence 'The Bows of London'? From: Gareth Geographiclly - look at the openening credits of that BBC Soap " East Enders" - No I don't watch it myself but my aged mother insists that I video it for her from time to time. Gareth |
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14 Dec 02 - 07:47 PM (#847528) Subject: Lyr Add: BOWS OF LONDON (from Martin Carthy) From: masato sakurai The Martin Carthy version is https://mainlynorfolk.info/frankie.armstrong/songs/thetwosisters.html According to A Concordance to the Child Ballads, 10F.1r 2 /About a' the bonny bows o London. 10F.3r 2 /And we'll view the bonny bows o London. 10F.21r 2 /At the bonny bows o London. 10O.1r 2 /At the bonny bonny bows o London 10H.1r 2 /At the bonnie bows of London town. ~Masato
Martin Carthy sings The Bows of London
There were two little sisters awalking alone
And the eldest pushed her sister in
Oh she pushed her in and she watched her drown
Oh she floated up and she floated down
And out and come the miller's son
Oh they laid her out on the bank to die
And he took some strands of her long yellow hair
And he made some strings from this yellow hair
And he made fiddle pegs from her long fingerbone
And he made a fiddle out of her breastbone
But the only tune that the fiddle would play
So the fool's gone away to the king's high hall
And he laid this fiddle all down on a stone
It sang yonder sits my father the king
And yonder sits my mother the queen
And yonder she sits my sister Anne
Roger Wilson sings The Two Sisters
There lived an old lord by the Northern Sea
Bow and balance to me
A young man came a courting there
As they walked down to the waters brim
She floated down to the miller's dam
Acknowledgements
The Bows of London transcribed by Garry Gillard. Roger Wilson's Two Sisters lyrics from the record's sleeve notes. Garry Gillard thanks Wolfgang Hell. |
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14 Dec 02 - 09:30 PM (#847560) Subject: RE: Origins: Whence 'The Bows of London'? From: mack/misophist I thank you all; each and every one. |
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15 Dec 02 - 05:35 AM (#847685) Subject: RE: Origins: Whence 'The Bows of London'? From: John MacKenzie There is an area of East London which is called Bow. Although it is not the most salubrious areas, it has given rise to what I think is one of the nicest sounding station names. i.e. Bromley by Bow. Does that name not call out for a poem, a song, or what? Giok |
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11 Oct 08 - 06:29 PM (#2463276) Subject: Waterson:McCarthy with Saul Rose song From: GUEST Can anyone help me out with this, it's driving me nuts. I recently saw Waterson:McCarthy play with Saul Rose, and they did a song which made the hair on my neck stand up but I've not been able to track it down. I don't remember the name of the song and they don't seem to have recorded their version. All I remember is that it's about a girl who drowns in a mill-pond, I think, and a musician comes along and makes a fiddle out of her bones-using the breast-bone for the body, her hair for the bow-strings, fingerbones for pegs, that kind of thing. I'm pretty sure it was their own arrangement of a trad thing, but I cannot find any version of it anywhere and I'd really like to. Anyone tell me anything about it? |
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11 Oct 08 - 06:37 PM (#2463281) Subject: RE: Waterson:McCarthy with Saul Rose song From: Joe Offer Well, I know it's a version of "The Two Sisters," so I crosslinked this thread with the others on that song. You'll find links to countless versions of the song above, but I don't know which one Waterson:Carthy/Rose did. I gather from this page that they have been performing a version called "Bows of London" (click), and I don't think we've had that version posted here. The estimable Garry Gillard has transcribed the lyrics of all the Watersons songs, and you'll find his transcription https://mainlynorfolk.info/frankie.armstrong/songs/thetwosisters.html here (click). Hope that helps. -Joe- |
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11 Oct 08 - 06:45 PM (#2463292) Subject: RE: Waterson:McCarthy with Saul Rose song From: thetasigma Martin Carthy did a version called The Bows of London, I think it's on Life and Limb which he recorded with...ummm...hold on, I'll go look...Dave Swarbrick. It is a version of Two Sisters, also sometimes called Binnorie. It is good, isn't it? Creepy.
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11 Oct 08 - 06:54 PM (#2463296) Subject: RE: Waterson:McCarthy with Saul Rose song From: Joe Offer Follow this YouTube link (click), and you'll find a couple of Carthy recordings of "Bows of London." -Joe- |
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01 May 21 - 04:59 PM (#4104235) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Bows of London (from Waterson:Carthy) From: Joe Offer Joe -needs update |
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02 May 21 - 01:54 PM (#4104345) Subject: RE: Origins: The Bows of London From: mayomick They had two locks there in the sixties , the left and right Bow lock – not sure if the lock is still there .A friend had a technical drawing job for the redesign of them .You can imagine the fun they had in the office with the name . |
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02 May 21 - 03:51 PM (#4104363) Subject: RE: Origins: The Bows of London From: GUEST,leeneia Somewhere I read that the bows are the pieces of land edged by a meandering river. I have a tape with this song being sung by Martin Carthy as posted above. (Dec 14 2002). I've tidied it up to suit myself. In some places, I think my memory has been more accurate. Here's two royal sisters walking along Hey the gay and the grinding. Rock dove sing a mournful song By the bonny bonny bows of London And the eldest has pushed her sister in Hey the gay and the grinding Pushed her in to sink or swim By the bonny bonny bows of London And the eldest has pushed her sister down Hey the gay and the grinding Pushed her in and seen her drown By the bonny bonny bows of London Oh she's floated nigh and she's floated yon Hey the gay and the grinding Floats till she come to the miller's pond By the bonny bonny bows of London Next comes along the miller's young son Hey the gay and the grinding "Father dear here swims a swan." By the bonny bonny bows of London Fool with a fiddle comes riding by By the bonny bonny bows of London Pulls her to the bank to dry By the bonny bonny bows of London And he's made some strings of her long yellow hair Hey the gay and the grinding Pulled them taut and tuned them fair By the bonny bonny bows of London And he made some pegs from her long fingerbones Hey the gay and the grinding Made some pegs and made some drones. By the bonny bonny bows of London And he made a fiddle of her breastbone Hey the gay and the grinding So's 'twould would pierce a heart of stone By the bonny bonny bows of London And he's fiddled by night and he's fiddled by day hey the gay... only tune that the fiddle would play Was the bonny bonny bows of London So the fool's gone down to the king's high hall Hey the gay and the grinding Music, dancing, feasting and all By the bonny bonny bows of London And he laid this fiddle all on a stone Hey the gay and the grinding Fiddle began to sing all alone By the bonny bonny bows of London "Yonder stands the wand'ring fool" Hey the gay and the grinding "Yonder sits my sister cruel." By the bonny bonny bows of London "Yonder sit the queen and king." Hey the gay and the grinding How they'll weep at my burying." By the bonny bonny bows of London (2x) |
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02 May 21 - 11:31 PM (#4104413) Subject: RE: Origins: The Bows of London From: Stewie Here's a beaut rendition: Stick in the Wheel --Stewie. |
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29 Nov 23 - 03:08 PM (#4192574) Subject: RE: Origins: The Bows of London From: GUEST Anyone able to illucidate the meaning behind the refrain 'Hey the gay and grinding'. Sounds like an old saying, but of course, the modern meanings for both keywords make it nigh ungoogleable. |
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30 Nov 23 - 12:46 AM (#4192591) Subject: RE: Origins: The Bows of London From: Reinhard Malcolm Douglas elucidated above, on 14 December 2002: The refrain, by the way, is one of many different ones and is probably of very little significance. The Bows of London is Child #10 version O, and Child got it from Buchan: Ancient Ballads and Songs of the North of Scotland (1828) and Christie: Traditional Ballad Airs (1876). So you're right that the phrase is old. |
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30 Nov 23 - 03:53 AM (#4192594) Subject: RE: Origins: The Bows of London From: Richard Mellish > Anyone able to illucidate the meaning behind the refrain 'Hey the gay and grinding'. > Sounds like an old saying, but of course, the modern meanings for both keywords make it nigh ungoogleable. Reinhard reminds us of Malcolm Douglas's comment that the refrain is probably of very little significance. Nevertheless those words must have come from somewhere and perhaps they did once mean something or are corruptions of words that meant something. I myself sing a version with the very similar 'Hey with the gay and the grinding' (which I got from Pete Nalder) so I would be interested in any hypotheses that anyone can suggest. |
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30 Nov 23 - 10:35 AM (#4192620) Subject: RE: Origins: The Bows of London From: Steve Gardham The best place to start looking at the possible meanings of refrains of Child ballads is all the versions in Bronson to see if there are any correlations. Apart from that what Malcolm said is true in about 90% of cases. |
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30 Nov 23 - 01:38 PM (#4192647) Subject: RE: Origins: The Bows of London From: Steve Gardham Another channel of investigation is other ballads that use the same refrain. What tends to happen is refrains get attached to their tunes and as tunes migrate from one ballad to another so the refrains can accompany them. |
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04 Dec 23 - 07:20 AM (#4192879) Subject: RE: Origins: The Bows of London From: FreddyHeadey re Guest 29 nov ^^^^^ Hey the gay and grinding also mentioned in this older thread https://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=104387#2137309 |
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04 Dec 23 - 08:12 AM (#4192888) Subject: RE: Origins: The Bows of London From: GUEST There is no reason to associate the song with a particular part of London although the Bow Back Rivers did (and,still do) have mill dams. |
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05 Dec 23 - 04:29 AM (#4192958) Subject: RE: Origins: The Bows of London From: Richard Mellish Thanks FreddyHeadey for the link to the earlier thread. Many of the comments in both threads refer to Bow in London or in general to bows in rivers, but "bow" in that sense rhymes with "toe". In the version I got from Pete Nalder, "bow" rhymes with "how". (Curse the vagaries of English spelling.) Any thoughts on which of those pronunciations may have applied to the refrain in the Scots versions in Child? |
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05 Dec 23 - 04:36 AM (#4192959) Subject: RE: Origins: The Bows of London From: Richard Mellish PS. Some of the American versions have "bow down" or "bow and balance", where "bow" surely rhymes with "how", but some of them have "low down". Confusion worse confounded! |