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19 Dec 02 - 11:08 AM (#850393) Subject: BS: '100 Peace Movements Bloom' From: GUEST In The Nation magazine's January 6, 2003 issue, an excellent article by Esther Kaplan, with the above title can be found. This article, better than anything I've read to date, details the rapid, explosive growth of the US anti-war movement, and gives an excellent overview of who the players are in this movement. It is important for people to understand just how diverse this movement is--it is unlike any to come before it in history. It's emphasis is on unity, but with a respect for the diversity of people organizing themselves to oppose the Bush administration's pre-emptive first strike war against Iraq. If people at least know who some of the other groups, organizations, and constituencies are involved in the movement, it will allow us to respect our differences while coming together in common cause to prevent a war. I won't cut and paste the article here at this point, as it is pretty long. It is part of The Nation's excellent series "Waging War" and it can be found here: http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20030106&s=kaplan |
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19 Dec 02 - 01:44 PM (#850528) Subject: RE: BS: '100 Peace Movements Bloom' From: GUEST It is a very important, informative read, so I'm going to keep refreshing this one for awhile. |
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19 Dec 02 - 02:05 PM (#850560) Subject: RE: BS: '100 Peace Movements Bloom' From: GUEST,Dan Kelly I'm all for regime change in Iraq, except for one thing. On the Nestle thread here today, there is a claim from Oxfam that $6m feeds 1m people for one month. My math is always suspect, but if I have this right, that means that $1m feeds 166,666 people for one month. White House economic adviser Larry Lindsey has claimed that a war with Iraq could cost $1-2b over a couple of years. (That number has been criticized as low, but let's take it to be conservative, and call it 1.5b over two years.) Two years is twenty-four months. (I'm sure I've got that right.) $1m would feed only 6,944 people for 24 months (166,666 divied by 24.) And let's say Oxfam is full of crap, and it would only feed 5,000 people. $1.5b is $1m times 150,000. 5,000 times 150,000 is seven hundred and fifty million hungry people being fed for two years. There are a mere 11 million people starving in Ethiopia. Yeah, I know, got to teach them to fish and all that, but when it comes to setting priorities. . . . |
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19 Dec 02 - 02:18 PM (#850575) Subject: RE: BS: '100 Peace Movements Bloom' From: GUEST I don't know if I'm for regime change in Iraq or not. First, how is that regime change to be brought about? I don't favor one nation (the US) unilaterally overthrowing the government of another sovereign nation, as was done in Afghanistan, and in violation of international principles of sovereignty. That makes for one very big mess, as nations here and there begin coveting their neighbors resources. Secondly, I haven't been given enough information about who the players would be of a new regime. If it is an occupation army, whether US or UN, I'm absolutely opposed to that form of regime change. If it is to be another puppet government of the US, as we have currently in Afghanistan, then we really have an occupation force propping up a puppet government, which isn't any more sustainable in the long term than it is in the short term, in Afghanistan or Iraq. So, I can't really say I favor regime change for Iraq. I can say I would lean much more heavily towards the UN getting Iraq's weapons of mass destruction under control WITHOUT military force, the end of Western sanctions against the people of Iraq, and the continued isolation of the Hussein government internationally, and with the continued presence of UN peacekeeping forces (in conjunction with the US and British forces) on the borders, and the policing the no-fly zone. |
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19 Dec 02 - 02:19 PM (#850580) Subject: RE: BS: '100 Peace Movements Bloom' From: Bobert Dan: You have seriously misplaced a few zero's. Try $100B minimum and more like $200B according to the Government's own estimates. And that is just for the war! Now add in the costs of rebuilding Iraq after Junior shots the joint up and trying to create stability in the counrty, especially if Saddam does severly damage his oil fields and I reckon one might not be too far off in throwing in another couple hundred billion dollars on top. Now get out yer slide rule and see what $400B will buy! A lot! Bobert |
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19 Dec 02 - 02:21 PM (#850583) Subject: RE: BS: '100 Peace Movements Bloom' From: GUEST Bobert, I was just coming back to correct that, but you beat me to it: "While White House economic adviser Larry Lindsey has estimated that a war against Iraq could cost $100 billion to $200 " http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2002/11/6/82130.shtml staggering |
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19 Dec 02 - 02:24 PM (#850587) Subject: RE: BS: '100 Peace Movements Bloom' From: GUEST,Dan Kelly as in 750 million hungry people being fed for the next two centuries. |
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19 Dec 02 - 03:54 PM (#850640) Subject: RE: BS: '100 Peace Movements Bloom' From: GUEST Yup, it really makes you wonder, doesn't it? |
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19 Dec 02 - 05:56 PM (#850711) Subject: RE: BS: '100 Peace Movements Bloom' From: Dead Horse Just send those *Peace Movement* people to Iraq. Maybe they can persuade Saddam to free his subjects voluntarily!!! |
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19 Dec 02 - 06:28 PM (#850730) Subject: RE: BS: '100 Peace Movements Bloom' From: Bobert Yo Dead Horse: You give my one half the military budget and I'll guarentee you that I, with the help of Amos, Nicole, Little Hawk, Guest (if we can get GUEST out of the closet) and a few others around here could hire a staff, develope a Department of Peace, and get you not only more for your money but do it in a pro-human fashion... Bobert |
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19 Dec 02 - 09:52 PM (#850868) Subject: RE: BS: '100 Peace Movements Bloom' From: GUEST,northfolk-Al Cholger Many of my friends and aquaintences have already been to Iraq, Including Bishop Thomas Gumbleton, and Congressman David Bonior. I trust each completely... The problems of the Middle East will be multiplied, not stopped by a war in Iraq. Hussein may be a megalomaniac, but we have one of those, too... This war must be opposed... |
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20 Dec 02 - 04:04 PM (#851332) Subject: RE: BS: '100 Peace Movements Bloom' From: Bobert Good point, GUEST. Here, the US invaded Afganistan to stop Al Qeada and we now read that Al Qeada is doing nicely in rebuilding in parts of Afganistan and has opened new training camps in Pakistan (our "friend"?) and they have no trouble coming up with recruits. Hmmmm? Looks like the US is loosing the War on Terrorism big time. Meanwhile back at the BarJ, Junior has his sights on Iraq. Hmmmmm? If he can't keep Afganistan stright, how the heck is he gonna keep Iraq straight after the war? Well, no one is looking that far ahead. Heck, all one has to do is look at Bush's dismal record of running the US and Afganistan to see that he doesn't need another screw up to *try* to run. He needs to show he can run one well. He remind me of folks that just keep on getting marries... and divorced...and married... and divorced... I'm seeing a pattern here with Bush. He's good a startin' stuff but once started, gets bored and just lets it fall into disrepair. Maybe it's genetic, I don't know. What I do know is the US and the world are not better off with Junior's huff-n-puff foriegn policy. He needs to get back to the War on Terrorism before the suicide bomber come to a "theater near you" and then he needs to get seriously involved in the Isreali/Palestinian War which is keeping the Al Qeada recruting lines growing. Going to war with Iraq is like a man cutting off his finger because of a hangnail. It is insanity. Bobert |
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20 Dec 02 - 07:15 PM (#851445) Subject: RE: BS: '100 Peace Movements Bloom' From: GUEST One of the most disingenuous aspects of the whole Iraq thing (besides the settling the score for daddy while he is out fighting the war on terrorism), is the idea that a US invasion will actually solve the problem of weapons of mass destruction in the region. That is just disingenuous beyond belief, in my book. To be discussing only Iraq in a disarmament context is just sheer stupidity, considering how volative and anti-American the entire region is, and how many civil wars are on the brink of exploding in our faces there. This whole Iraq war thing is not just idiocy, it is terrifying and frightening for the region, and the Western nations that will become the victims of backlash attacks from the fundamentalist Muslim militias, national armies, etc. I'm very depressed by the prospect of this war. For us and whatever Allies we muster to go on this murder/suicide mission with us, for the Iraqis, for the region... But hey! Don't forget to pick up your absolutely free, beautiful Peace on Earth buttons at www.peaceforchristmas.org! |