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Origins: 3 Jolly rogues of Lynn(e)

27 Jan 03 - 06:25 AM (#875641)
Subject: Origins: 3 Jolly rogues of Lynn(e)
From: Steve Parkes

There's a version in the DT here. The other version I know of starts "In good King Arthur's day", but is otherwise much the same. Can anyone throw any light on it?

The "colony" version suggests it's from the early days of the USA, when there must have been a lot of folk who longed for the old days. King Arthur was around a very long time ago (1200 years or so?), and I can't imagine it would really be relevant to those times; maybe "King Arthur" was a safe substitute for "King George" if you lived among the more enthusiastic republicans?

Which Lynn(e) did it refer to? There must be several in New England; there certainly are in old England.

Finally: it seems a rather pointless song! It's not very informative, and it's so short that the last verse is simply a repeat of the one before with "still" inserted. Or does this continuing state of poetic justice have more significance? Do the characters represent actual political figures of the times?

I'm holding my breath on the edge of my seat!

Steve

27 Jan 03 - 06:45 AM (#875654)
Subject: RE: Origins: 3 Jolly rogues of Lynn(e)
From: Rapparee

I've always thought that it was an English rebel song from the anti-industrial uprisings in the north of Britian and Scotland (Luddites) in the early 19th century. I've never done any real research on the song, though.

27 Jan 03 - 07:06 AM (#875662)
Subject: RE: Origins: 3 Jolly rogues of Lynn(e)
From: masato sakurai

KING ARTHUR (3 JOLLY ROGUES VARIANT) is in the DT. For some info on the song, see The Traditional Ballad Index: In Good Old Colony Times.

~Masato

27 Jan 03 - 07:43 AM (#875679)
Subject: RE: Origins: 3 Jolly rogues of Lynn(e)
From: Steve Parkes

Thanks, Masato. I was surprised at the "earliest date" of 1877. although the "would not sing" versions smack of 18th/19th century glee clubs and the likes of the Anacreontic Society (whence that peculiar tune to "The Star-spangled Banner"), precursors of the Brotsh Music Hall. I always expect traditional songs to make sense, more or less; but "popular" songs are not infrequently nonsensical.

It sounds like the "would not sing" version may be related to Old King Cole . Cole was a 5th century Welsh (or Scottish) king, predating Arthur by a couple of centuries (my arithmetic was a bit out in my first post!), and much given to musical pursuits, according to his song.

Steve

27 Jan 03 - 08:25 AM (#875693)
Subject: RE: Origins: 3 Jolly rogues of Lynn(e)
From: masato sakurai

Sometimes "the earliest dates" at The Traditional Ballad Index cannot be taken at face value. "According to the sources consulted" are implied. The song might have been earlier.

~Masato

27 Jan 03 - 08:31 AM (#875696)
Subject: RE: Origins: 3 Jolly rogues of Lynn(e)
From: Charley Noble

Hmmmm. The last verse in the DT is a variation of one composed by Richard Dyer-Bennet, circa 1940's:

"The miller still floats in his dam
The weaver still hangs in his yarn
And the little tailor goes skipping through Hell
With the broadcloth under his arm."

Dyer-Bennet's original version ran:

The miller still floats in his dam
The weaver still hangs in his yarn
And the little tailor SKIPS THROUGH through Hell
With the broadcloth under his arm.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

27 Jan 03 - 09:24 AM (#875722)
Subject: RE: Origins: 3 Jolly rogues of Lynn(e)
From: IanC

I'm sorry the SuperSearch isn't working properly, but you'll find a detailed discussion in This Thread.

:-)

27 Jan 03 - 09:41 AM (#875725)
Subject: RE: Origins: 3 Jolly rogues of Lynn(e)
From: nutty

There is an interesting broadside in the Bodleian Library dated 1804.
Published by Laurie and Whittle (London) on Dec 12TH 1804.
THE MILLER, WEAVER AND LITTLE TAILOR

It is sung by a Mr Charles Johnston and it is stated to be suitable to be sung at all musical clubs.



In good King Arthur's day
He was a worthy king
Three sons of whores were turn'd out of doors
Because they could not sing
Because they etc

The first he was a miller
The second was a weaver
The third he was a little tailor
Three thieving rogues together

The miller he stole corn
The weaver he stole yarn
And the little tailor he stole broadcloth
To keep those three rogues warm

The miller was drowned in his dam
The weaver was hung in his yarn
And the devil flew away with the little tailor
And the broadcloth under his arm


It really is amazing that it has changed so little in almost 2oo years

27 Jan 03 - 09:54 AM (#875727)
Subject: RE: Origins: 3 Jolly rogues of Lynn(e)
From: nutty

These popular broadsides were often making political comment.

Often poking fun at royalty and Parliament.

The late 1700's and early 1800's were a time when the English monarchy were having a fair amount of difficulty and I wonder if the song could, in some way, allude to the madness of King George.

27 Jan 03 - 10:20 AM (#875744)
Subject: RE: Origins: 3 Jolly rogues of Lynn(e)
From: IanC

Nutty. It might be worth your while reading the above thread. It also has the broadside.

:-)

27 Jan 03 - 10:23 AM (#875748)
Subject: RE: Origins: 3 Jolly rogues of Lynn(e)
From: Malcolm Douglas

In the previous discussion of the song (see IanC's post above), Bruce Olson mentioned an early example on his website. This is When Arthur first in court began; it is a parody of "The Noble Acts, newly found, Of Arthur of the Table Round," (Thomas Deloney, c. 1600). Falstaff sings the opening lines in Henry IV, II, iv (1598). Bruce also refers to a version printed in 1781, beginning "In days when good King Stephen reigned", and quotes another, slightly later, "When Richard Lion ruled, why, then". Another parody, "When James in Scotland first began", appeared in 1656. The early versions were sung to a form of the popular Flying Fame / Chevy Chase melody.

A broadside example of the Deloney piece can be seen at   Bodleian Library Broadside Ballads:

The noble acts newly found, of Arthur of the table round   Printed between 1674 and 1679 for F. Coles, T. Vere, J. Wright, and J. Clarke [London]. Wood 401(61)

27 Jan 03 - 10:25 AM (#875749)
Subject: RE: Origins: 3 Jolly rogues of Lynn(e)
From: Schantieman

I thought it was Lymm - there's one of these in Cheshire....

S

27 Jan 03 - 10:43 AM (#875763)
Subject: RE: Origins: 3 Jolly rogues of Lynn(e)
From: Steve Parkes

Thanks for the link, Ian, I did look before I started this thread, but didn't find it.

And thanks to everyone else for your contributions.

I think I may feel a PEL-oriented parody coming on ... I'll try t resist it!

Steve

27 Jan 03 - 11:12 AM (#875783)
Subject: RE: Origins: 3 Jolly rogues of Lynn(e)
From: IanC

Steve ... don't worry - I knew the thread was there because I spent a lot of time posting to it!

27 Jan 03 - 01:03 PM (#875869)
Subject: RE: Origins: 3 Jolly rogues of Lynn(e)
From: nutty

Ian ...you probably posted the link as I was typing up the lyrics .
Didn't check to back to see if anything else had been posted.

I included a link to the broadside as I find the Laurie and Whittle broadsides particularly fascinating and of such quality engraving that it is difficult to believe that they were being produced for the ordinary man in the street.

There are over 90 of them in the Bodleain (circa 1800) and they cover a broad spectrum of material ..... some songs from productions at Drury Lane and Covent Gardens ..... some satyrical ....some that would become enduring folk songs such as Sally in our Alley , Billie Taylor and John Hobbs .... and some that make absolutely no sense at all unless it is a comment to something that is happening at the time EXAMPLE