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29 Jan 03 - 05:14 AM (#877410) Subject: Beagle or Beadle? From: GUEST,Keef In the song Craigie Hill there is a line that refers to The landlords and their agents, their bailiffs and their beagles. Call me a pedant if you will, but I think perhaps it should be Beadle (as in Mr Dickens parochial beadle) as I cannot percieve of what use a wuzzy slobbering beagle would be in a forced dispossion situation. I think a beadle was some minor beaurocrat of old. Am I right or wrong and does anyone else really give a stuff! |
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29 Jan 03 - 05:45 AM (#877421) Subject: RE: Beagle or Beadle? From: Teribus Looking at the lyrics and context of the verse I would tend to agree with you - it should be Beadle not Beagle. |
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29 Jan 03 - 05:48 AM (#877424) Subject: RE: Beagle or Beadle? From: McGrath of Harlow Not Jeremy I hope. |
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29 Jan 03 - 06:23 AM (#877439) Subject: RE: Beagle or Beadle? From: Noreen Definitely beadles. I've never heard it sung otherwise. |
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29 Jan 03 - 06:26 AM (#877441) Subject: RE: Beagle or Beadle? From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar Beagles? Good grief! |
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29 Jan 03 - 06:45 AM (#877447) Subject: RE: Beagle or Beadle? From: banjomad (inactive) A Beadle is the man, a Beagle is a small foxhound ok Dave |
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29 Jan 03 - 06:50 AM (#877449) Subject: RE: Beagle or Beadle? From: Nigel Parsons Chambers Twentieth Century Dictionary: "beagle: n, a small hound tracking by scent....hunting hares: sometimes, a harrier; a spy: a bailiff: a small kind of shark." So either could be correct. Nigel |
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29 Jan 03 - 06:56 AM (#877451) Subject: RE: Beagle or Beadle? From: McGrath of Harlow Or it could be "bagels"? |
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29 Jan 03 - 07:00 AM (#877453) Subject: RE: Beagle or Beadle? From: Teribus Beagles - daftest dogs in creation Once watched a pack chase a hare. The beagles were hot in pursuit, heads down, hot on the scent. The hare ran into this cul-de-sac part of a field closely followed by the beagle pack. The hare couldn't get out so just ran straight back through the middle of the pack and off into the countryside - not one single beagle in that pack even lifted its nose from the ground to watch him. We were in tucks, helpless with laughter for about five minutes - so much for being vicious, tenatious, merciless killers from whom no prey is safe. Had a word with the Huntsman at the pub later, he told me that they frequently get lost on hunts and are totally incapable of fending for themselves - daftest dogs in creation, was his description. |
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29 Jan 03 - 07:57 AM (#877487) Subject: RE: Beagle or Beadle? From: jimlad Our Beagle has just finished a hard mornings work. He has been around the neighbourhood and collected a heap of yardbrushes,doormats and 1 fat filled half coconut |
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29 Jan 03 - 08:28 AM (#877511) Subject: RE: Beagle or Beadle? From: McGrath of Harlow But what about the ones you've heard of and should have never seen? |
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29 Jan 03 - 08:29 AM (#877512) Subject: RE: Beagle or Beadle? From: Declan In parts of Ireland the landlords local lackey was known as the Beagle, probably to do with the notion of them behaving like a puppy dog in the ladlords presence - or maybe its a local corruption of Beadle. I know a number of people who still use this word as a term of abuse, but they generally pronounce it as if it were spelt bagel. Beagle (pr. bagel) the way I sing it. I can't be certain at this stage, but I think that's how Paddy Tunney used to sing it as well. I've never noticed anyone singing it as Beadle, but obviously some people do. When I hear people sing it with the standard pronunciation of beagle it doesn't seem quite right. Somehow I think if the landlords were literally hounding people out of their homes, they'd use a different breed of dog ! |
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29 Jan 03 - 08:33 AM (#877515) Subject: RE: Beagle or Beadle? From: Nigel Parsons As I pointed in the Dictionary quote above (although I failed to highlight it first time around): Chambers Twentieth Century Dictionary: "beagle: n, a small hound tracking by scent....hunting hares: sometimes, a harrier; a spy; a bailiff; a small kind of shark." Nigel |
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29 Jan 03 - 10:33 AM (#877588) Subject: RE: Beagle or Beadle? From: Teribus The verse the term comes up in goes: "The landlords and their agents, their bailiffs and their beagles The land of our forefathers we're forced for to give o'er And we're sailing on the ocean for honor and promotion And we're parting with our sweethearts, it's them we do adore" As bailiffs are already mentioned, what would be the reason for the repetition? |
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29 Jan 03 - 10:44 AM (#877598) Subject: RE: Beagle or Beadle? From: Amos As a beadle is "A minor parish official formerly employed in an English church to usher and keep order during services" (AmHerDict) it would make little sense for the bailiff to be said to own one. The repetition is just a poetic alliteration. Songs aren't constrained by logic. (Unless some republican has been working late at night to drum up a new law...). A |
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29 Jan 03 - 11:41 AM (#877649) Subject: RE: Beagle or Beadle? From: Trevor Perhaps it's beetles. Or weevils. Or needles. Only trying to help... |
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29 Jan 03 - 12:03 PM (#877672) Subject: RE: Beagle or Beadle? From: Naemanson I have wondered what a beadle was since I first saw the musical "Sweeney Todd". In that play the judge has a beadle who is apparently an official of the court. None of the above definitions seem to go there. What gives? |
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29 Jan 03 - 01:02 PM (#877709) Subject: RE: Beagle or Beadle? From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar Just as a constable can be a PC plod or the Chief Constable or highest-ranking copper in the force (ditto for Sheriff), it is reasonable for a word like beadle to have multiple connotations. It generally seems to apply to a minor officer cum enforcer of the rules, mainly but not exclusively in a Church context. In French, as "bedeau", it seems to be exclusively a Church appointment (or was, now they haven't even got priests in a lot of parishes!). There's a Yiddish word "Schammes", which seems to have started off meaning something broadly similar, mainly amounting to a synagogue caretaker but also cropping up in US detective stories as a reference to the guy who does the legwork. In that context, it's often spelt Shamus which gives it a misleadingly Irish appearance. |
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29 Jan 03 - 06:58 PM (#878004) Subject: RE: Beagle or Beadle? From: banjomad (inactive) Nigel there is also a small shark called a ' nurse ' but I wouldn't want one tending to my soft parts. Dave |
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29 Jan 03 - 07:07 PM (#878010) Subject: RE: Beagle or Beadle? From: Gareth Beadle - A minor functionary in English Parishes - Main responsibility of enforcing the Parish Law's including that of the "Workhouse" VIDE the film "Oliver" the late Sir Harry Secombe played the 'Beadle' Gareth |
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29 Jan 03 - 09:29 PM (#878125) Subject: RE: Beagle or Beadle? From: Don Firth Lox and beagles? Don Firth |
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30 Jan 03 - 05:30 AM (#878288) Subject: RE: Beagle or Beadle? From: GUEST,Keef Many thanks for all the inputs evrybodies. I think now I can just enjoy the song knowing that both versions are probably equally valid although the vision of a killer attack beagle driving the poor tenants from their miserable dwelling is just a tad weird. Incidentally the DB sez Beagle and I know the song from a CD by Taliesin which also sez Beagle. I know wot I'll do I'll sing it meself and I'll sing BEADLE cos I like to have the last word! ......................Keef |
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31 Jan 03 - 05:05 AM (#878938) Subject: RE: Beagle or Beadle? From: Declan Thanks to this thread I got out an old tape of Paddy Tunney, who is the acknowledged source of most of the people who sing this song, and he definitely sings beagle rather than beadle. As to pronunciation he doesn't pronounce it exactly like bagle, but the first syllable definitely sounds closer to Bay than to Bee. Anyway its nice to get an excuse to dust off the old tapes and have a listen every now and again. |
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31 Jan 03 - 05:24 AM (#878948) Subject: RE: Beagle or Beadle? From: Noreen Indeed so, Declan. I must do the same- I can hear Paddy singing it very clearly, in my head, and I could have sworn he sings beadles.... must be my brain translating into what I expect to hear! Paddy is, after all, the acknowledged source as you say, so my apologies if I misled anyone. |
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31 Jan 03 - 01:29 PM (#879234) Subject: RE: Beagle or Beadle? From: Malcolm Douglas He wrote it down as "beagles", too (The Stone Fiddle, 1979). |
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01 Feb 03 - 03:36 AM (#879829) Subject: RE: Beagle or Beadle? From: Keef Wivaneff |