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11 Mar 03 - 08:54 AM (#907241) Subject: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: GUEST,Water Pricehouse Despite billions in foreign aid, most of the people living in the Palestinian territories live in poverty. Their leader, Yasser Arafat does not come from a family with inherited wealth. He has never been a businessman. He has never had a job other than being leader of, first, the PLO, and now, the Palestinian Authority. And yet, in the past decade, Arafat has amassed a personal fortune, most of it kept in French banks, of more than $300 million U.S. dollars. The facts and figures have been documented in Forbes Magazine's list of the world's "richest Kings, Queens and Despots." Even if Arafat's salary was as much as that of the President of the United States, it would take 1500 years with no living expenses to amass that kind of fortune. Could it be that Arafat is corrupt? |
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11 Mar 03 - 09:05 AM (#907251) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: Amos Yes. |
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11 Mar 03 - 09:12 AM (#907257) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: Bagpuss It's always helpful to provide a link to or a source of this sort of information.... Bagpuss |
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11 Mar 03 - 09:31 AM (#907272) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: Teribus Bagpuss, You will find it on www.news.com.au But to save you the trouble - here's the article: Arafat, Castro, Saddam among world's wealthiest rulers from Sydney Morning Herald Text of article replaced by link. --JoeClone, 2-Mar-04. By the way if you go into Google and type in Forbes Magazine, scroll down you will see a link to an article "Auditing Arafat" - read that it will explain the where and how of Arafat's means to acquire such wealth - It didn't come from wages or fees from lecture tours. Interesting to see old Saddam up there with the big earners - and here's me thinking that he does what he does from the goodness of his heart and out of love for his country and people. |
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11 Mar 03 - 09:32 AM (#907274) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: Wolfgang link to Forbes article which isn't very informative. Wolfgang |
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11 Mar 03 - 10:13 AM (#907306) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: CarolC I'd like to see how G. W. Bush's fortune compares to that of the average wage earner in the US, and exactly how he go it. |
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11 Mar 03 - 10:13 AM (#907307) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: CarolC (got it) |
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11 Mar 03 - 10:52 AM (#907348) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: Teribus But he'd be going some to beat Saddam judged by the same criteria - right Carol? |
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11 Mar 03 - 11:28 AM (#907381) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: CarolC Hard to say, Teribus, without the numbers, isn't it? |
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11 Mar 03 - 11:39 AM (#907394) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: Ebbie I don't see why anyone would be surprised by anyone's presence on the list. Power tends to accumulate wealth. Access to wealth tends to make you wealthy. I remember reading years ago about Jim Bakker and Tammy Fay during that scandal of greed and corruption, that when the staff were counting the money that came in from the faithful in its millions, Bakker would on occasion grab up a fistful of the cash and hand it to someone. When no one has the authority to make you accountable, you tend not to account for things. When you are working with food in a kitchen and are in charge of doling it out to starving but anonymous people, it would very probably be difficult not to give your own children more food than to the crowds outside the door. Those who do not cave in to that mindset are the remarkable people in our midst. He who is without sin may cast the first stone. |
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11 Mar 03 - 12:45 PM (#907468) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: Troll However much Bush is worth, CarolC, heprobably didn't get it by skimming off money that was supposed to go to feed his starving people. Saddam did just that with the oil for food program Here's how. Every month, Saddam has to ask the UN for permission to sell oil and name the asking price. He always sets a price at least $.50/bbl. below the going market rate. The oil is then sold- usually to brokers- at that price. But here's the kicker. Saddam tacks on a $.30 surcharge. This is paid directlyto him with, if you will, a separate check. The middleman goes along because he is getting the oil at $.20/bbl. below market price. He can then re-sell the oil at market and make a tidy profit. Who suffers? The Iraqis, of course. So regardless of how venal George Bush might be, he is a piker compared to Saddam. He's not even in the same league. troll |
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11 Mar 03 - 01:00 PM (#907478) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: Teribus Now CarolC - let's C "G. W. Bush's fortune compares to that of the average wage earner in the US" Saddam Hussein judged on the same criteria which would be: "Saddam Hussein's fortune compares to that of the average wage earner in Iraq" Any arguement so far?? Now Saddam is worth $2 billion the fortune of the average wage earner in Iraq is $?? - but I would venture a guess that it is not a great deal. No figures for George W - he didn't even feature on the Forbes List - We can deduce from that that it is nowhere close to Saddam's "modest nest egg" (solely acquired while conscientiously doing his duty protecting and nurturing the people of Iraq). The average wage earner in America can safely be assumed to be earning more than his counterpart in Iraq - Yes?? See what way the maths are heading Carol?? - I do |
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11 Mar 03 - 02:03 PM (#907537) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: Ebbie I'm surprised, troll, that you are equating Hussein and Bush. Surely it's not a mark of virtue in Bush that he doesn't equal in venality a known despot and murderer? I'd think you'd be better off making a case for Bush in another way. |
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11 Mar 03 - 02:13 PM (#907548) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: CarolC Well, first of all, we really need to be looking into the whole Bush family to get a real sense of what we're dealing with. And we would need to take a look at the Bush family's holdings in corporations that have a financial interest in wanting to wage war. And to what extent his family's fortune was gotten honestly, or by exploitation (which is, really, what is wrong with how Saddam got his money). And the extent to which his family got their money through war profiteering. And then we could see what his real worth is, and whether or not it is blood money. And then we could see whether or not he is a piker compared to other known despots. |
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11 Mar 03 - 02:25 PM (#907557) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: katlaughing And then there was Silverado and Enron to which they are connected... meanwhile in Cuba people who've begun to grow their own urban vegetable gardens can average an abundant $30 per month selling to other urban-dwellers while a teacher is lucky to receive about $20 per month. The urban gardening is a model for other cities and being studied as such, but it's another case of earning disparities, though not as dramatic as have been noted above. |
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11 Mar 03 - 05:54 PM (#907735) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: DougR The Bush's will be filing an income tax return Carol. Usually the amount any president pays in taxes is printed in the media. I think you're comparing apples with oranges anyway. The Bush family did not gain their wealth by stealing it from the mouths of citizens as Saddam has. If you think they did, you made the charge, show us your proof! Also, kat, if Bush made a bundle off Enron, tell us how much please. DougR |
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11 Mar 03 - 06:06 PM (#907746) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: katlaughing You learning your tactics from Rush, Doug? I didn't say he made a bundle, I said the family was connected to Enron. If you didn't already know that, you must not read very much legitimate news. For starters, I would suggest reading this article, then perhaps the one it references in the NYTimes, as well others easily found. |
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11 Mar 03 - 08:08 PM (#907830) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: CarolC DougR, I would like to see some independent investigations of GW, and the rest of the Bush family, and any and all connections to companies that have been bailed out at taxpayer expense, such as Silverado Savings and Loan, and all of the companies that the Bush family has holdings in that stand to profit from war with Iraq or anything else that costs the taxpayers money. This is a request for information on my part. Not an assertion of fact. |
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12 Mar 03 - 01:36 AM (#907977) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: DougR Well Carol, if you are willing to pay my fee of $100 per hour to research that question I'd be glad to take a shot at it. :>) If you really are that curious, though, you could save some money by researching it yourself! kat: whatever would we do without "article" and opinion pieces? I don't think Bush has ever disputed that he was friends with the officers of Enron has he? That does not make him a co-conspirator of the Enron scandal however. Guilt by association? That's been disputed by every liberal thinking person I know, you agree? DougR |
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12 Mar 03 - 02:41 AM (#908003) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: Teribus Hiya Doug, CarolC in her post above is not only comparing apples to oranges - she's wriggling - in that: 1. She is now changing the criteria of the comparison that she herself set. 2. "And we would need to take a look at the Bush family's holdings in corporations that have a financial interest in wanting to wage war." In this she must lump together all the other share-holders in the same corporations and tar them with the same brush - she will probably find listed under the stock holders, all major pension schemes, all major insurance companies, etc, etc, all the way down to her average American wage earner. 3. "And to what extent his family's fortune was gotten honestly, or by exploitation (which is, really, what is wrong with how Saddam got his money)." "Honestly, or by exploitation", Carol will of course be the sole arbiter of which is which - working as she may do within a capitalist system, taking all the benefits that that system offers, she no doubt insists scrupulously in working for the absolute bare minimum wage required for her to survive, does not save, does not invest and refuses any bonus payment any employer may offer her. Exploitation for mutual benefit is how the capitalist system works, and it generally works extremely well. That is more than can be said for the alternative doctrine which has fallen completely by the wayside having been proved, corrupt, inefficient and in effectual. 4. "And the extent to which his family got their money through war profiteering. And then we could see what his real worth is, and whether or not it is blood money." On this "charge" the entire nation would stand accused, not only the Bush family. No Carol - you are wriggling. PS Doug - I liked the $100 per hour research fee - unfortunately I don't think you will be taken up on it - Carol might think you are exploiting her. |
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12 Mar 03 - 07:43 AM (#908105) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: Greg F. In addition, should be pretty easy to research how big a bundle Grandpa Bush made for the family fortune by illegally trading with the Nazis, too. That way he could do the exploiting and stealing by proxy- and pretend his hands were clean. The American Way! |
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12 Mar 03 - 08:06 AM (#908118) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: Teribus A couple of others for you Greg F: During the Passchendale (Sp?) offensive in the First World War the British Government was paying Krupp something like a penny farthing for every shell fired at the german lines by British guns. In the Second World War SOE was paying the German Gestapo for engine parts to maintain and run "Shetland" Larsen's buses. Strange circumstances produce strange bed-fellows - for a whole raft of reasons. |
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12 Mar 03 - 09:00 AM (#908153) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: GUEST The German Navy's flags were made in Birmingham. When the Hood was sunk, the Bismarck was flying an ensign made in England. Go figure eh? |
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12 Mar 03 - 09:09 AM (#908158) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: Greg F. How exactly does shitty and illegal behavior by others justify and legitimize shitty and illegal behavior by Bush ? |
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12 Mar 03 - 09:19 AM (#908163) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: GUEST This thread started by questioning how Arafat's corruption lined his personal pockets with $300 million. Quickly though, CarolC, diverted attention away from the corrupt Palestinian chairman to our own leader, thus proving yet again, that it is we Americans who are the root of all evil on this planet. Let us never again wonder where from comes the moral authority for 9/11. |
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12 Mar 03 - 10:34 AM (#908197) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: Greg F. Damn, guest! A politician using his position, power and influence for personal financial gain. Who knew? I'm sure no politician in the history of the U.S. or any other nation has been guilty of that. Thanks for pointing this out. |
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12 Mar 03 - 12:25 PM (#908278) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: CarolC Teribus, you're full of shit. And I'm not going to lower myself far enough to your level to even try to answer most of your bullshit assertions. But I will answer this one: "Honestly, or by exploitation", Carol will of course be the sole arbiter of which is which - working as she may do within a capitalist system, taking all the benefits that that system offers, she no doubt insists scrupulously in working for the absolute bare minimum wage required for her to survive, does not save, does not invest and refuses any bonus payment any employer may offer her. Exploitation for mutual benefit is how the capitalist system works, and it generally works extremely well. That is more than can be said for the alternative doctrine which has fallen completely by the wayside having been proved, corrupt, inefficient and in effectual." I have lived far below the poverty line for my entire adult life. I lived on approximately $6,000 US per year for about ten years because I was too ill to work. My illness is related to overexposure to toxic substances in my home and work environments. I have experienced not being able to afford enough food to eat. Yes... I know what it's like to go hungry. As an adult, I have never had access to adequate dental care, which only made my health problems worse. I am now (having recently married someone who was in better financial circumstances than me), for the first time in my adult life, able to get some of my dental problems addressed and now, BIG surprise, I'm starting to get a LITTLE bit less ill. For the first time in many years, I don't face the spector of going hungry at the end of the month. For the first time in many years, I'm getting adequate nutrition. For the first time in many years, I can afford to eat fresh vegetables on a regular basis. Maybe some day I'll even be able to work again. I know a LOT about poverty. You, apparently know jack shit about it. You, Sir, are a bastard of the first order. |
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12 Mar 03 - 12:36 PM (#908285) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: CarolC And by the way - I kept getting the same line of bullshit you like to give about the things that made me sick being "safe". But somehow that doesn't seem to have prevented me from being sick anyway. There are real, people with real suffering behind your theoretical bullshit. Same goes for everyone in the world who has or will suffer because of George Bush and the US government. |
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12 Mar 03 - 12:39 PM (#908289) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: DougR Teribus, my normal fee for research is $250 per hour, but I was willing to give Carol C., a special fellow Mudcatter price. I'm telling you this because I don't want others to think I would work for as little as $100 per hour on a regular basis. DougR |
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12 Mar 03 - 01:26 PM (#908316) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: GUEST,Forum Lurker Teribus-the idea of exploitation for mutual gain is an oxymoron. The definition of exploitation prevents the exploitee from benefiting. The system doesn't work particularly well, as innumerable Gilded Age and modern Third world laborers could tell you. The capitalist system focuses on the profit of the individual, not the gain of society, and it shows. How else do you explain the ridiculous amounts of money thrown away on advertising so that one company can get a larger share of the market, with all of the costs passed on to the consumer? |
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12 Mar 03 - 03:38 PM (#908417) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: katlaughing Doug, leaving out the op/ed genre, what else would you read, of news, were it not an article? An essay, a report? What's the dif? Did you read the article I linked? |
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12 Mar 03 - 03:53 PM (#908433) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: DougR Yes, kat, I read the David Corn article. One could hardly point to Corn as an objective reporter I think. Whenever Diane Rheme needs somebody on her NPR program to beat up on the Bush family she gets old David before the microphone. Anyway, the article contains some history and a lot of speculation. I saw nothing that would convince me that GWB had any official connection with Enron while in the White House. 1986 was a long time ago. DougR |
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12 Mar 03 - 05:44 PM (#908528) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: CarolC By the way, DougR, what I want to see are in depth investigations by an independent investigator into the Bush fmaily, not just some on-line research. I know I'll never get that, but it's what I would like to see happen. |
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13 Mar 03 - 07:05 AM (#908933) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: Teribus Forum Lurker - so in the entire world there is no such thing as a win-win situation? Well I'll be damned - I've come across that particular phenomenon quite often. CarolC - The Guest above who pointed out the deflection you introduced has a very valid point. Why do you not want to discuss Yassir Arafat's accumulation of $300 million? while the people to whom he is supposed to be providing political leadership to are suffering so badly. On the subject of Yassir Arafat - man of the people - the article I referred to "Auditing Arafat" explains how up until now Yassir Arafat controls the purse strings to the extent of signing away PA funds for amounts as small as $600 to the millions of dollars he spent buying arms from Iran - the last purchase was a bit of a bummer as the Israelis intercepted the shipment and confiscated it. Talking about lines of bullshit (theoretical or otherwise) nothing I have said can, in any way, match your attributing the suffering of the world, past, present and future to a single man and his administration who have only been in power for just over two years - That is bullshit!! |
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13 Mar 03 - 12:31 PM (#909156) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: DougR I'm confident, Carol C, that if there is a "story" there (Bush family fortune and how they got it) some energetic biased writer like David Corn would have the book in Border's and Barnes & Noble by now. DougR |
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13 Mar 03 - 12:43 PM (#909167) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: CarolC Nowhere, Teribus, have I "attribut(ed) the suffering of the world, past, present and future to a single man and his administration who have only been in power for just over two years". More bullshit from you. DougR, I wish I shared your confidence. On the subject of why I'm not focusing like a lazer on Arafat like some where think I should. Because I think that, although corruption by Arafat is probably a big problem for the people of Palestine, compared with the horrors thay have to deal with in the form of the right wing government in Israel, Arafat is small potatoes. On the subject of why I think we should include Bush and his family in our scrutiny when we look at this sort of thing, the Bush family has had their collective fingers in pivotal goings on for a long, long time. And many legitimate questions have been raised about the possibility of conflict of interest with the roles they have played in the public service arena. I think these fall into the same category as the other people mentioned, and it's stupidly hyprcritical for some people to be pointing fingers at only the ones they can use to make political hay. |
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13 Mar 03 - 12:51 PM (#909179) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: katlaughing There is an extensive and very interesting article here on the Bush family and how they made their money starting out in the oil business. It's long, but worth reading, imo, esp. near the end. |
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13 Mar 03 - 01:43 PM (#909231) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: Jack the Sailor Teribus "Talk about lines of Bullshit!" You arrogantly and stupidly assume you know Carol's financial situation to the point where you make the conversation personal. Is that a usual tactic for you when you run out of your other Bullshit? You don't even have the acuity to interpret the sources that you use in your own argument. This is from "Auditing Arafat" "An Israeli intelligence report pegs Arafat's personal holdings at $1.3 billion (a claim dubbed "ridiculous" by the Arafat camp), but Israeli officials say Arafat uses his largesse mainly to buy friendships." He uses the money to "Buy Friendships" Do you think he needs 300 million to pay people to play golf with him? A more politically savvy person might think that he buys friends to govern Palestine and fight for the freedom of his people. Don't bother to say that using money in this way is corrupt. That is exactly what Bush is doing now in Turkey and Afghanistan and what he plans to do in Iraq, buying friends. That's how he got elected for crissakes! He got the money to do that by SELLING his favours. Every politician in the west does it and every one is to some degree "corrupt" but not as arrogantly and openly as Bush. Forbes says that Castro is personally wealthy and comes up with a dollar figure by calculating his "wealth" as a percentage of Cuba's GNP. If I have to explain to you why that is dubious then you have no place in an adult discussion of economics. This quote is nothing but rhetorical bullshit " match your attributing the suffering of the world, past, present and future to a single man and his administration who have only been in power for just over two years " No where has Carol blamed Bush for "ALL of the Suffering in the world" she has blamed Sharon, Clinton and a host of others for what she feels is their share of the blame. In this thread is in effect saying about Bush, Sharon and their supporters. "People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones." It's a simple, basic theme in her writing on these subjects and if you were to give her the slightest credit for intelligence you would be able to understand that message. Apparently you are too wrapped up in your own "Bullshit" and flawed reasoning to respond to anything but your "hot buttons". Teribus, did YOU learn you debating skills from Limbaugh? Does he have counterparts in England? The next time you make a personal attack, you would do well to make sure that what your information comes from some other source than your fertile imagination. |
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14 Mar 03 - 04:15 AM (#909697) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: Teribus CarolC, Regarding your statement: "Nowhere, Teribus, have I "attribut(ed) the suffering of the world, past, present and future to a single man and his administration who have only been in power for just over two years". Didn't you say earlier in this thread: "Same goes for everyone in the world who has or will suffer because of George Bush and the US government." Jack the Sailor (Carol's husband): "You arrogantly and stupidly assume you know Carol's financial situation to the point where you make the conversation personal." Lets take a look at what I DID say: "..working as she may do ..." What the hell does MAY mean Jack? - in the context of what I went on to say it specifically implies that I have NO knowledge of Carol's financial position. Exactly the same as neither Carol or yourself have any knowledge of mine. With regard to personal insult and attack: Carol's words: "Teribus, you're full of shit." That was her opening remark in response to: "Honestly, or by exploitation", Carol will of course be the sole arbiter of which is which - working as she may do within a capitalist system, taking all the benefits that that system offers, she no doubt insists scrupulously in working for the absolute bare minimum wage required for her to survive, does not save, does not invest and refuses any bonus payment any employer may offer her." Again her closing remarks within the same post: "I know a LOT about poverty. You, apparently know jack shit about it. You, Sir, are a bastard of the first order." And you two, have got the complete and utter gall to whine and complain about personal insult and attack. Taking the statements made in order: "I know a LOT about poverty." - from Carol's post, I have no doubt that she does. "You, apparently know jack shit about it." - pure supposition, founded on a complete and utter lack of knowledge. "You, Sir, are a bastard of the first order." - Personal insult to both myself and to my family. That statement, made in print, in an open forum in my country constitutes libel, and a libel that is easily proved - as both my parents were married to each other at the time of my birth. |
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14 Mar 03 - 04:41 PM (#910257) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: CarolC Didn't you say earlier in this thread: "Same goes for everyone in the world who has or will suffer because of George Bush and the US government." I certainly did. And it is quite a stretch for you to extrapolate from it that I was suggesting that all of the world's suffering is the fault of Bush and the US government. For instance, if I said, "I feel sorry for that guy who just died in a car accident. Same goes for everyone else who has or will die in a car accident", would I be saying that I think everyone in the world is going to die in a car accident? I don't think so. If my sentence were to have the meaning you have chosen to give it, it would need to look more like this: "Same goes for everyone in the world, who has or will suffer because of George Bush and the US government". And even then it would be a stretch to get your meaning out of it. |
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14 Mar 03 - 06:23 PM (#910343) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: Jack the Sailor Teribus you ignorant slut! Thank you! I am enjoying this game of "point-counterpoint" with you. It's not often one encounters such an accommodating straight man. Yes indeed I am Carol's husband. I'm in her corner and I'm sticking up for her. You started the personal attacks by, in a very snide and patronizing way, calling Carol a hypocrite. You couldn't have been more wrong. Putting MAY in there doesn't get you off the hook. If it did, I could say "Teribus MAY f*** donkeys". But of course I cannot. As for your idiotic claims of "Libel". I welcome you to bring suit. For one who is so pompous, you do not seem to be familiar with some of the subtleties of the English language. Calling someone a "bastard" is not always meant to be taken literally. In this case, I believe she was trying to communicate to you that you are behaving like an insufferable ass. Please feel free to contact me if you require further clarification. As for the supposition that "you know jack shit about poverty", judging from what I have read, I see a huge gap between what you think you know and what actually are able to communicate. It is difficult to suppose that you know "jack shit" about ANYTHING. My supposition is that you are rude and thoughtless. I also suppose that you don't put much thought into your political posts. I would be pleasantly surprised and delighted if you were to prove me wrong. BTW when you go to see your barrister or solicitor, please show him the following. It is the Webster's dictionary definition of "bastard". You may be interested in the third meaning. It is my supposition that Carol could not have chosen a more apt word. Yours Truly Rob Dale (CaroC's proud husband) Main Entry: bas·tard Pronunciation: 'bas-t&rd Function: noun Etymology: Middle English, from Old French, probably of Germanic origin; akin to Old Frisian bost marriage, Old English bindan to bind Date: 14th century 1 : an illegitimate child 2 : something that is spurious, irregular, inferior, or of questionable origin 3 a : an offensive or disagreeable person -- used as a generalized term of abuse |
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14 Mar 03 - 08:42 PM (#910417) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: Forum Lurker Teribus-I didn't say there was no such thing as a win-win situation. What I said was that it cannot result from two people exploiting each other, as exploitation is deriving benefit from someone to that person's detriment. Cooperation is what produces win-win situations. Teribus, CarolC, and Jack the Sailor- PLEASE, can you continue your squabbling somewhere other than a public forum? Regardless of who is in the right, you are displaying the sort of immaturity that gets four-year-olds sent to their rooms. |
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14 Mar 03 - 09:53 PM (#910447) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: GUEST If you go back and look at past threads that start out as being critical of Arafat, CarolC will make it about somebody else, in this case Dubya, and then, ultimately, the thread becomes about CarolC. |
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14 Mar 03 - 10:10 PM (#910459) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: CarolC Funny thing about that, GUEST. Every time I try to provide some balance in a discussion of Israel/Palestine, someone rakes me over the coals for it. It's the darndest thing. Personally I would prefer that the discussion not be about me. |
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14 Mar 03 - 11:29 PM (#910485) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: katlaughing Carol, some clarification, please? I understand what you meant, but your examples up above are exactly the same except for the comma which, imo, doesn't make enough of a difference to illustrate your point: Didn't you say earlier in this thread: "Same goes for everyone in the world who has or will suffer because of George Bush and the US government." Etc..., then: If my sentence were to have the meaning you have chosen to give it, it would need to look more like this: "Same goes for everyone in the world, who has or will suffer because of George Bush and the US government". kat |
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15 Mar 03 - 09:06 AM (#910627) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: GUEST,Water Pricehouse Funny thing about that, GUEST. Every time I try to provide some balance in a discussion of Israel/Palestine, someone rakes me over the coals for it. It's the darndest thing. Personally I would prefer that the discussion not be about me. Funny thing, CarolC. This thread was not started as a discusussion of Israel/Palestine. It was supposed to be about how a leader with no obvious sources of great uncome, other than stealing from the billions in foreign aid that the Palestinian Authority has received from the Eestern democracies that he hates so much, came to have $300 million in his personal French bank accounts, while most of his people live in abject poverty. But somehow, anytime there's a Mudcat thread about Arafat, you end up making it about yourself. |
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15 Mar 03 - 10:04 AM (#910640) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: Forum Lurker GUEST,Water Pricehouse-It's posts like this that lead to the impression of xenophobia here. Getting involved in a flame war that was petty for established members probably isn't the best way to introduce yourself. katlaughing-the difference is that the first one is a qualifier, those members of the set "everyone in the world" who also belong to the set "has or will suffer because of George Bush and the U.S. government." The second one is saying that the two sets are equivalent, that everyone who is in the first is also in the second. |
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15 Mar 03 - 11:10 AM (#910680) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: CarolC "Same goes for everyone in the world who has or will suffer because of George Bush and the US government." In this sentence there is more than one possible way to interpret what is being said. There is the meaning I had in mind, that I am including only those people who, among all of the people in the world, has or will suffer because of George Bush and the US government. I gave an examiple of that meaning with this sentence, "I feel sorry for that guy who just died in a car accident. Same goes for everyone else who has or will die in a car accident". With this example, it should be pretty clear to most people that I am talking about a specific group of people, ie: those who have or will die in car accidents. In this example, "Same goes for everyone in the world, who has or will suffer because of George Bush and the US government". The comma after "world" could be used to separate the two parts of the sentence. ie: Same goes for everyone in the world. Everyone in the world has or will suffer because of George Bush and the US government. As I said, it would be quite a stetch to get that meaning out of my sentence, even with the comma. |
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15 Mar 03 - 11:13 AM (#910684) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: CarolC I should have paid more attention to Forum Lurker's post. He explained it well. Forum Lurker, Water Pricehouse is not a newbie. He/she has been here a long time and is just trolling. |
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15 Mar 03 - 12:02 PM (#910714) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: gnu $300M ? Wow. I wish I had that kinda dough. I might even try to help an oppressed people gain political, religeous and economic freedom or something. Gee, is it hot in here or is just me ? Yeah riiiight ! If he was just a crook, he'd be long gone. With $300M, he could buy an island somewhere cosy and screw happily ever after. Now, I do not purport to know even the slightest about any of this discussion or the conflict(s), but I can add and subtract. And, if I was crook, I woulda subtracted myself at far less that $100M and let the discussion and conflict(s) continue without me. Ergo, if he stole $, he didn't steal it for personal gain... and I'm not saying he's right or wrong, I'm only saying what I said. BTW JtS, give em anudder right twixt the lookers fer me. I gotta go ice me knee and Bud me brain now. As for this thread and the conflict, too bad we all ain't Newfs... did a job this morning where the owners, an eldery couple, were both from the Rock. I was about to get me ladder out of the back of the truck when the Mrs. of the house hollered at his nibs an he went into the garage an brought one out so's I didn't hafta go out in the cold to the truck. Salt of the earth I says. Hmmmm, has anyone checked Tobin's offshore accounts ? |
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15 Mar 03 - 12:14 PM (#910727) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: CarolC I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Some of the best men in the world come from Canada's Atlantic provinces ;-) |
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15 Mar 03 - 01:08 PM (#910751) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: katlaughing As I said, I understood what you meant; just didn't think the examples were as clear as they could be. It doesn't really matter, though. Thanks, kat |
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15 Mar 03 - 01:09 PM (#910752) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: GUEST It's interesting that a person living in poverty, who cannot afford to feed herself fresh fresh vegetables, has the resources for a computer and internet connection. I guess some people have different priorities. |
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15 Mar 03 - 01:27 PM (#910762) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: gnu You certainly do, you sick pup. Ya know, my old man used to have a saying for people like you... "Fuck em, they're not worth it." |
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15 Mar 03 - 01:58 PM (#910785) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: CarolC Sure, katlaughing. I used to have a lot of problems with distinctions like that one until I got a book on grammar and punctuation called, Woe Is I, The Grammarphobe's Guide to Better English in Plain English. It's a lot of fun, and easy for me to understand, grammarphobe that I am. Well, GUEST, until I came to live with my hubby, JtS, I was using a computer that was built from spare parts and given to me by my brother-in-law (and for a few months, I was using one that belonged to my neighbor because he didn't have room in his apartment for it). I spent a nominal amount of money each month to have a connection to the internet because I couldn't get out very often to be around people (I didn't have a car, I didn't have enough energy to make the effort to make and keep friends.). Sometimes I didn't see any people at all for weeks at a time. I had a telephone with local and long distance service for the same reason. So the small amount of money spent on the internet connection (and telephone) was as important for my health as fresh vegetables (isolation being just as bad for one's health as poor nutrition... any doctor will tell you that). It was a good call, I think, because it kept me from giving in completely to dispair. And it's how I met my husband. These days, I count myself a very fortunate woman. I have a wonderful husband, and my needs are being met. |
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15 Mar 03 - 04:08 PM (#910853) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: Jack the Sailor French Bank accounts? Surely you mean "Freedom" bank accounts. :) I guess the allegation that the money is kept in a French bank rather than for instance and Israeli one can be taken as proof positive that he is corrupt. Gnu's right, if it were about money Arafat would be long gone. He's also right is his remark about Tobin which was a cute way of saying that even Canadian politicians are not completely free of corruption. Arafat is corrupt! That was you point "Water Pricehouse" wasn't it? Now I have agreed. I am confident that everyone who has posted will agree. Arafat's corruption has never been a secret. Is Sharon corrupt? Does Bush make shady deals and climb into bed with the wrong people? I think so, what is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. It is simply a matter of degree. It would seem that this debate has come to a logical conclusion. Is there anything else you would like talk about? |
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15 Mar 03 - 04:29 PM (#910865) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: katlaughing The Plain English Handbook is another good one, Carol. |
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15 Mar 03 - 05:48 PM (#910920) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: gnu ...."even Canadian politicians are not completely free of corruption. " Whoa, there's an understatement.... when Mulrooooney was in, 22, 22, TWENTY TWO !!!, cabinet ministers were brought up on chrages. And, of course, so was he in the Airbus scandal, after he left, but we paid him $1M and he dropped the defamation suit. Marg, Princess Warrior for PM.... did ya vote yet, bye ? Go to the 22 Minutes website and cast your vote.... even better than having Stockwell change his name ! |
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15 Mar 03 - 06:31 PM (#910948) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: Jack the Sailor I voted Gnu! Corrupt Politicians! What's the opposite of an oxymoron? an Oxyrighton, maybe? |
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17 Mar 03 - 03:34 AM (#911699) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: Teribus JtS, You are absolutely priceless: "Teribus you ignorant slut! Thank you! I am enjoying this game of "point-counterpoint" with you. It's not often one encounters such an accommodating straight man." As for accommodating straight men - how about this "As for your idiotic claims of "Libel". I welcome you to bring suit. For one who is so pompous, you do not seem to be familiar with some of the subtleties of the English language." "BTW when you go to see your barrister or solicitor, please show him the following. It is the Webster's dictionary definition of "bastard". You may be interested IN THE THIRD MEANING. It is my supposition that Carol could not have chosen a more apt word. Yours Truly Rob Dale (CaroC's proud husband) Main Entry: bas·tard Pronunciation: 'bas-t&rd Function: noun Etymology: Middle English, from Old French, probably of Germanic origin; akin to Old Frisian bost marriage, Old English bindan to bind Date: 14th century 1 : an illegitimate child 2 : something that is spurious, irregular, inferior, or of questionable origin 3 a : an offensive or disagreeable person -- used as a generalized term of abuse" Now were I to go to a solicitor - no doubt he himself would look up the definition in Websters dictionary as that is source referenced by yourself. He would then re-read the words written by Carol in her post, which were: "You, Sir, are a bastard of THE FIRST ORDER." Now, given that its your definition, and her choice of words - you don't have to be all that subtle to distinguish the difference. But just in case you can't get your brain round it - what was detailed as being the FIRST definition of the word? |
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17 Mar 03 - 03:41 AM (#911703) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: DougR Teribus: I hope that both your mother and your father are alive and well. If not, I hope that they lie in peace, because I am confident that they were worthy parents. DougR |
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17 Mar 03 - 04:47 AM (#911721) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: gnu I recall a heckler at an open mike night being told. "Hey man, at least it's free. And I'll even play for free at your parents' wedding." |
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17 Mar 03 - 06:22 AM (#911765) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: Gervase Libel's an interesting case - in the UK the definition is often regarded as that which exposes one to hatred, ridicule or contempt. Now class, the question is - can Teribus be said to have libelled him/herself? However, with legal aid being denied for dafamation suits, libel remains the preserve of the well-heeled and the pompous, and we don't know if Teribus fits both those criteria. |
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17 Mar 03 - 11:45 AM (#911992) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: Jack the Sailor Oh Gervase, perhaps we should take it easy on Teribus. I can see where a person who is not well educated and not well read, might mistake the phrase "of the first order" for "first in order". If poor ole Teribus has hired a solicitor who is that stupid, he has problems enough. **GRIN** |
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10 Aug 03 - 09:46 PM (#999999) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: Joe Offer Hey, I just want a million.... |
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11 Aug 03 - 10:34 AM (#1000231) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: Peg Joe you crack me up!!!!!!! peg |
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13 Feb 04 - 03:44 AM (#1115179) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: Wolfgang A follow-up to the original theme of this thread: A few days ago, Le Canard Enchaine, a French left-wing magazine which is known both for satirical articles and for investigative reports has published documents showing that the French prosecution has started to investigate the bank accounts and the money flow of Soha Arafat, the wife of Jassir Arafat. She has a residence in Paris. A monthly money transfer of 1,000,000 Euro from a Swiss bank to the Paris account of Soha Arafat has led the prosecutor to suspect money laundering. These transfers have been seen from Juli 2002 to Juli 2003 and have involved the Arab Bank and the BNP Paribas. Wolfgang |
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13 Feb 04 - 01:12 PM (#1115319) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: GUEST On a related theme. It was reported the other day that Palestinian firms, including one owned by Palestinian Prime Minister Ahmed Qureia's family, are supplying cement and other materials that Israel is using to build its security wall. Read the AP story. |
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13 Feb 04 - 03:46 PM (#1115396) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: CarolC Wolfgang, are you sure it's not you who has the "Arab Obsession"? It seems like just about every time things start to calm down a little around here on the subject of the Middle East, you start a new thread or refresh an old one that is bound to stir up a lot of muck and bad feelings. Do you have a lot of Arab and/or Muslim immigrants living in your area these days? If so, how do you feel about that? |
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13 Feb 04 - 04:53 PM (#1115410) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: GUEST,Gomer Golly gee, Sgt. Carter, CarolC has posted sixteen times to this thread and she accuses Wolfgang, who has posted twice, of being obsessed. Wolfgang points out that Arafat and his wife are corrupt, so CarolC implies he has anti-Arab/Musilim attitudes. Even a PFC from Mayberry can follow that logic and conclude that anyone who points to Sharon as corrupt is anti-Semitic and that anyone who points to Bush as corrupt hates each and every American. Now that just ain't so. CarolC herself has said such things about Sharon and Bush and she doesn't hate us Americans, does she Sgt. Carter? |
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13 Feb 04 - 05:02 PM (#1115416) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: GUEST,Sgt. Carter Gomer, you nincompoop! CarolC was referring to the "A very Arab obsession" thread that Wolfgang started and posted to nine times. Does nine times make an obsession? Not compared to CarolC. CarolC posted thirty-nine times to the "A very Arab obsession" threat. |
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13 Feb 04 - 05:50 PM (#1115442) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: CarolC I've never started a single one of these threads, with the exception of a part 2 (or 3 or something) of one that was started by someone else. I'd be very, very happy if no one ever started another one of them ever again. So why is it so important for some people to be constantly starting Palestinian-bashing threads? Why hasn't anyone started a thread about the fact that Ariel Sharon is also being investigated for corruption? Maybe it indicates a bias against Palestinians, Arabs, and Muslims by some people around here. If someone starts a Jew-bashing thread (or a male/femaale, Midwesterner/Easterner, etc. bashing thread), I'll speak up against it, as I have in the past. I'll speak up about people bashing of any sort, as often as needed. When they start them, I will post to them, as often as I think it's justified. But I won't be starting any, nor will I start any threads that are critical of Israel or the US, or any other country or people. It's not me who's obsessed. |
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13 Feb 04 - 06:21 PM (#1115468) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: DougR Well gee, Walter, a guy's got to pay his bills! DougR |
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14 Feb 04 - 01:22 PM (#1115919) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: GUEST,CPA CarolC, There are some very important distinctions to be made between the alleged corruption scandals of Arafat and Sharon. In Sharon's case, he is alleged to have profited from illegal business dealings. The masses of Israelis are not the victims. Furthermore, Sharon is being investigated by Israeli authorities and it is widely assumed in Israel that the scandal will end his political career. In Arafat's case, he has accumulated enormous personal wealth at the expense of the Palestinian masses. Despite this, there is no move from within the Palestinian authority to have Arafat account for how he could have possibly accumulated $300 million. And now it appears that Palestinian Prime Minister Ahmed Qureia's family firm is directly profiting by supplying cement to the Israelis to build the security wall. It would appear that Sharon's alleged corrouption is day to day stuff that happens in almost any democratic society and that it will bring him down. Meanwhile Arafat and Qureia and in the tradition of dictators like the Duvaliers of Haiti, Idi Amin of Uganda, Saadam Hussein of Iraq, the Shah of Iran, etc. who amass enormous wealth at the total expense of a people mired in poverty. Not the same thing at all. CPA |
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14 Feb 04 - 03:31 PM (#1115974) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: CarolC As I mentioned back before this thread became dormant (and thankfully so) the Bushes and other high level US government officials are guilty of corruption that causes just as much suffering on the part of US citizens as Arafat and Qureia do to Palestinians. The only difference, for the purposes of people who start threads like this one, is that people who start threads like this one do so specifically in order to stir up and spread hatred toward Palestinians, Arabs, and Muslims. Someone said, not too long ago, that if the government of Israel really wanted to get rid of Arafat, the best way to do it would be to stop making him such a big issue. They don't want Arafat gone. He's too usefull to them. But no one has the right to dictate to the Palestinians who will be their democratically elected president. |
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15 Feb 04 - 10:31 AM (#1116339) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: GUEST,Van For argument's sake we will assume that Arafat has 300 Million. For logic's sake we will ask what he is doing with it, what help it is to him in his current state, where or who will it go to in the inevetible, and at his age with the health problems he has, imminent demise, who has paid it to him into what banks (presumably not the West one). We could also ask in whose interest it is to tell such tales and perhaps consider who publishes Forbes rich list, why, and from what sources. Most estimates of rich peoples wealth are little more than conjecture. You don't plaster posters on billboards and the backs of buses advertising how much you have. Some bugger might tax it. |
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15 Feb 04 - 10:45 AM (#1116349) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: GUEST I would imagine it would be in the Palestinians interest to find out where it came from and where it will go. I don't think they will be given an answer though. |
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15 Feb 04 - 11:19 AM (#1116358) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: CarolC The obvious solution to the problem is for the US taxpayers to give the Palestinians the three billion dollar welfare payment they would otherwise be giving to Israel this year (and maybe in future years as well), and make it dependent on the Palestinians holding free and open elections to decide who will be the next president. Then, Israel can get out of the West Bank and Gaza entirely, and leave the Palestinians in peace to get on with the business of building their country. Three billion should more than compensate for the missing 300 million. |
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15 Feb 04 - 11:21 AM (#1116359) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: GUEST Doesn't answer where it came from and where it is going though. |
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15 Feb 04 - 11:30 AM (#1116364) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: CarolC Doesn't really matter in the end though. And we definitely know what happened to the millions of dollars the world community gave to the Palestinians that did end up being used for the infrastructure of the Palestinian Occupied Territories, such as schools and the school system, the security and police forces, and pretty much everything else that makes it possible to have a civil society. What happened to it was that the government of Ariel Sharon gratuitously destroyed it. |
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15 Feb 04 - 11:36 AM (#1116367) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: GUEST I think it does matter. I think it is a very legitimate question. Out of pure interest, how do you think he accumulated it? |
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15 Feb 04 - 11:42 AM (#1116372) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: CarolC ...so if we reallly are concerned with whatever is in the best interest of the Palestinians, what we need to do, obviously, is get rid of the government of Ariel Sharon. (And get the Israelis out of the Occupied Territories, and get international observers into the Occupied Territores as the Palestinians have been begging us to do for years). |
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15 Feb 04 - 11:46 AM (#1116376) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: Greg F. How about Cheney's $300+ million, if you want to talk corruption? |
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15 Feb 04 - 12:49 PM (#1116400) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: GUEST Your inability to answer a direct question is amazing. And also very telling. Good bye and Good luck with your narrowminded fanaticism. Why don't you go and help those you think are oppressed? Bit too uncomfortable? Easier to spout rhetoric from an armchair. |
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15 Feb 04 - 04:06 PM (#1116496) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: GUEST But no one has the right to dictate to the Palestinians who will be their democratically elected president. -CarolC talking about Arafat on Feb. 14, 2004 what we need to do, obviously, is get rid of the government of Ariel Sharon. -CarolC talking about Sharon on Feb. 15, 2004 CarolC, Your double standard is, as always, quite astounding. |
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15 Feb 04 - 04:21 PM (#1116501) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: CarolC Not really, Guest. I was using that point to illustrate your double standard. Worked quite well, too, I think. My answer to your direct question is in my 15 Feb 04 - 11:30 AM post. My answer is that that question, as well as its answer, are irrelevant to the bigger picture. The point is that you and others here in this thread are saying certain things must be done and it is in the best interests of the Palestinian people them to be done. But you don't really give a shit about the Palestinian people. If you did, you would be calling for an end to the violence committed against the Palestinians by the government of Israel, and you would be calling for an end to the occupation. What you are really doing here is to use the issue of Arafat's money as a way of justifying further violence committed against the Palestinians by the government of Israel. |
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15 Feb 04 - 04:28 PM (#1116507) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: Wolfgang Carol, I shall gladly respond to your questions in a thread in which they fit but I won't help you in derailing this thread. You have tried it in your first post to this thread and you did try it again now. The "I'd rather talk about something else" tactic is too obvious. I am by far not the first in this thread to state the obvious but I have the impression it is worth repeating: If a person who happens to be Arab, Palestinian, Muslim, male, is criticised that does not mean that hatred is spread against Arabs, Palestinians, Muslims, males except for people with an implicit or explicit racist world view. Wolfgang |
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15 Feb 04 - 04:29 PM (#1116508) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: GUEST Please don't even attempt to assume what I am or am not doing. I asked you a simple question.You are unable or unwilling to answer that.An enquiring mind is healthy. Yours is very sick. |
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15 Feb 04 - 04:34 PM (#1116511) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: CarolC If a person who happens to be Arab, Palestinian, Muslim, male, is criticised that does not mean that hatred is spread against Arabs, Palestinians, Muslims, males It does if it's relentless and entirely unbalanced with regard to who gets criticized and how often, as is the case in this country with regard to Israel and the Palestinians. You need to understand the context in which this kind of discussion takes place here in the US, to understand how I arrive at the position I take in threads like this one. And you can't do that unless you spend quite a bit of time here, and you are continually bombarded with anti-Palestinian/Arab/Muslim propaganda as we are here. I found a statistic that says that even the majority of Israelis believe that the US is too biased in favor of Israel and against the Palestinians. I'll find it for you and post a link. |
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15 Feb 04 - 04:40 PM (#1116518) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: GUEST Please don't bother. An answer would be much more appreciated from your self. So again, how do you think he accumulated his wealth? |
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15 Feb 04 - 04:42 PM (#1116519) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: GUEST CarolC's double standards know no bounds. Looking through the Mudcat archives, I see that she has repeatedly and categorically stated that, despite her thousands of posts critical of Israel, Sharon, etc. she is not anti-Semitic. Yet, when someone is critical of Arafat or teh Palestinian authority, she brands them as anti-Arab/Musilim. |
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15 Feb 04 - 04:43 PM (#1116520) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: CarolC The Pew Research Center You have to scroll down a way to find this part: U.S. policies toward the Middle East come under considerable criticism in the new poll. In 20 of 21 populations surveyed – Americans are the only exception – pluralities or majorities believe the United States favors Israel over the Palestinians too much. This opinion is shared in Israel; 47% of Israelis believe that the U.S. favors Israel too much, while 38% say the policy is fair and 11% think the U.S. favors the Palestinians too much. And since it's US taxpayer money that is paying for what the government of Israel does to the Palestinians, the impressions US citizens have about Palestinians is critically important in helping to determine how they will be treated by the government of Israel. So the promotion of distorted beliefs about the people involved can and does directly translate into profound and often tragic consequences for many, many innocent people, both Palestinians as well as Israelis. |
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15 Feb 04 - 04:48 PM (#1116524) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: CarolC In order for my positions to be anti-Semitic, Guest, all Jews would have to be in agreement with the government of Israel and it's handling of the issues related to the Palestinians. Since they are not, and since I am in agreement with many Jews on this issue, the charge of anti-Semitism is a red herring on the part of people who are trying to manipulate and coerce people like me into becoming complicit with our silence. |
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15 Feb 04 - 04:50 PM (#1116526) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: GUEST MMMMMMMMMMmmmmmmmmmmm still no answer. |
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15 Feb 04 - 04:52 PM (#1116529) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: Peace Arafat has some bucks that maybe don't belong to him. It's Sharon's fault. Huh? |
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15 Feb 04 - 04:54 PM (#1116530) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: CarolC My answer, Guest, is that I don't know where he got it or where it will go. |
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15 Feb 04 - 04:56 PM (#1116531) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: CarolC That's possible, brucie. Some Palestinians believe that Arafat is in cahoots with the Israeli government. |
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15 Feb 04 - 05:12 PM (#1116539) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: Peace Really? Well stranger things have happened. |
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15 Feb 04 - 05:35 PM (#1116552) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: GUEST CarolC, I'm willing to take you at your word that, despite hundreds of anti-Israel posts, you are not anti-Semitic. I agree that one can be critical of Sharon and/or Israel and not be anti-Semitic. You, however, suggest that anyone who criticizes Arafat and/or the Palestinian authority of being anti-Arab/Muslim. You cannot have it both ways and retain any credibility for your position. |
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15 Feb 04 - 05:52 PM (#1116561) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: CarolC I don't think that anyone who criticizes Arafat and/or the Palestinian authority is anti-Arab/Muslim. But I do think that trying to say that we know what is best for the Palestinians and we have a right to impose our will on them, while the US not only empowers the Israeli government to do whatever it sees fit, but we even finance its policies, is most definitely anti-Palestinian. And I also think that people who start numerous Palestinian/Arab/Muslim-bashing threads are probably promoting an agenda that is biased against Palestinians/Arabs/Muslims. And in the case of Wolfgang, he has even admitted that he has a bias in this respect. By the way, I'm not even anti-Israel. I am anti-Israeli expansionism. |
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15 Feb 04 - 06:01 PM (#1116570) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: GUEST This, as far as I read it was not started as an anti Palestinian/Muslim/Arab thread. It asked a legitimate question, that you chose to percieve as criticism and racist. That speaks far more about your tendencies than anyone who has posted to it. Do you honestly believe that someone is unanswerable, on the basis of their nationality alone? |
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15 Feb 04 - 06:13 PM (#1116574) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: CarolC I would agree with your first point, Guest, 15 Feb 04 - 06:01 PM, were it not for the context in which I first responded to this thread when it was new. That context was that the government of Israel, as well as almost all of the US media, were calling for Arafat to be removed, against the wishes of the Palestinians. And the Israeli government was (and still is) refusing to negotiate with him. On your second point, no, I do not. But I do think we have an obligation to uphold the principles of democracy. I don't think the US has a right to tell either the Palestinians or the Israelis who their leaders should be (or will be). And I don't think that the government of Israel has that right either. |
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15 Feb 04 - 06:15 PM (#1116575) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: Wolfgang Back to the theme of this thread: Why was €1m a month sent to Arafat's wife? (The moderately left Guardian, usually not known for being unsympathetic towards the Palestinian cause). Wolfgang |
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15 Feb 04 - 06:48 PM (#1116587) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: CarolC Here you go, brucie. As I mentioned before, it has been suggested (by Palestinians among others), that if Sharon wanted to get rid of Arafat, he wouldn't be making him such a big issue: GARDELS: Has Sharon's strategy to isolate Arafat and destroy his effectiveness backfired? SHAATH: Absolutely. Arafat today is the most powerful leader in the whole Arab world. His constituency now is not just the Palestinians, but every one of the 300 million Arabs. http://www.digitalnpq.org/global_services/global%20viewpoint/04-08-02shaath.html Arafat is very useful to the Sharon administration for many different reasons. |
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15 Feb 04 - 08:11 PM (#1116625) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: Peace The question remains: What is he doing with the cash. That is, from whence cameth it? |
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15 Feb 04 - 08:41 PM (#1116637) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: CarolC I don't think that question has been answered by anyone yet brucie. It's only been asked. This is what is said about it in the link I provided in my last post: GARDELS: The Israelis have seized documents they say show that Arafat approved purchasing materials for suicide bombers and paid terrorists. What do you make of these documents? SHAATH: The Israelis are not the policemen of Palestine. They have no juridical rights to search through anybody's papers and decide what is a crime and what is not. Be that as it may, these papers don't prove anything. Two of them are about financial aid given to families of men that were not bombers, but people that Israel decided to kill through extra-judicial assassination. No court indicted them for anything. The amounts paid to their families posthumously were minimal -- $1,000 for five families. Then there is this paper which shows a request for money to buy explosive materials supposedly addressed to the financial officer of the Palestinian police force. Yet, there are no markings or signatures of approval or disapproval by any Palestinian authority. This is the smoking gun? The full proof of culpability and guilt claimed by the prime minister of Israel and the justification for his invasion? I don't think the world is so gullible. |
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15 Feb 04 - 09:14 PM (#1116650) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: Peace Thank you, Carol, but it doesn't answer the question either. |
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15 Feb 04 - 11:04 PM (#1116691) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: CarolC Nope. It doesn't. I've done several internet searches on this subject today, using the search words "Yasser Arafat 300 million" and "Suha Arafat" (without the quotes), and for the most part all that has come up has been what I linked to above, the Guardian article that Wolfgang linked to today, reproductions of the Guardian article on other sites, Benjamin Netanyahu's own website, some Israeli publications, a website that is run by American Jews, and some internet fora. Plus a lot of articles that contain the words in my search, but that are about other subjects. I haven't found anything conclusive in my searches, but maybe I'm not using the right search parameters. Beats me. |
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16 Feb 04 - 07:25 AM (#1116855) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: Wolfgang The interview with Shaath is typical of any politician's PR-person worldwide (and I may add that we can see this tactic in this thread as well): No concrete information disguised with hardly relevant attacks. Arafat in crisis over Fatah exodus (Guardian): ...growing lawlessness in several West Bank cities, notably Nablus and Jenin, since the Israeli army drove Palestinian police from the streets. Palestinians are killing each other in criminal violence and fights for political turf. ... More than 350 activists signed the resignation letter delivered to Mr Arafat and Fatah's central committee. "Fatah is beginning to disintegrate as a result of internal contradictions, Fatah is not united," it said. "Fatah, as it stands today, is leading us toward tribalism, internal conflict and a bottomless pit." ... Fatah's constitution requires leadership elections every five years, but none has been held for 15 years. Many members are frustrated at what they see as an aging leadership ... unwilling to surrender power. Now compare that with what Carol has cited, Arafat today is the most powerful leader in the whole Arab world. His constituency now is not just the Palestinians, but every one of the 300 million Arabs, and you'll see that Shaath uses just a tiny bit of exaggeration in his defense of Arafat. Without the external threat by Israel's (since the last change of government) often very stupid politics the superficial unity of the Palestinians would break down quickly. Wolfgang |
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16 Feb 04 - 10:44 AM (#1116982) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: CarolC It probably wasn't exaggeration when the interview was conducted, Wolfgang. But I agree pretty much with this: Without the external threat by Israel's (since the last change of government) often very stupid politics the superficial unity of the Palestinians would break down quickly. With this exception. I think that without the Israeli threat, Arafat would have accomplished his dream of being the father of the first independent Palestinian State, and he would have retired as an elder statesman by now and people with a political approach that is more appropriate for the needs of the day would have already taken his place. |
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16 Feb 04 - 01:43 PM (#1117113) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: GUEST I think that without the Israeli threat, Arafat would have accomplished his dream of being the father of the first independent Palestinian State, and he would have retired as an elder statesman by now CarolC, That is one of the most off-base theories I've ever read in your thousands of anti-Israel postings. Just a 3.5 years ago, peace and Palestinian statehood was imminent. The economies of both Israel and Palestine were thriving. President Clinton brokered a deal in which 95% of Arafat's demands were met by the Israeli government of Ehud Barak. 95%. Rather than continue negotiations, as any statesman would, Arafat broke off the talks and unleashed the Intifada and an unending wave of terrorist attacks. Faced with Intifada and unending terrorism, the fearful Israelis, quite predictably, elected Sharon, a hardline prime minister. The corrupt Arafat is the reason for the current state of affairs. He is the reason so many on both sides have been killed. He is the reason there is no Palestinian state. |
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16 Feb 04 - 02:04 PM (#1117124) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: CarolC Guest, as I'm sure you know from reading my many hundreds of posts on this subject, your assertions in your 16 Feb 04 - 01:43 PM post are factually incorrect. And this part: Just a 3.5 years ago, peace and Palestinian statehood was imminent. The economies of both Israel and Palestine were thriving. President Clinton brokered a deal in which 95% of Arafat's demands were met by the Israeli government of Ehud Barak. 95%. ...is a lie. But you knew that because you keep a running tally of all of my posts on this subject. Arafat signed the Oslo accords and the PLO was honoring it's committments under Oslo, while Israel violated it's obligations under Oslo by continuing to build new settlements. After Rabin was murdered by an Israeli terrorist, his successor, Netanyahu, abandoned Oslo entirely. Even Shimon Perez admits this. Barak's offer to the Palestinians was nowhere near 95% of what the Palestinians wanted. Barak was offering nothing less than an aparthied state with the Palestinians living in tiny bantustans, with vast areas of Israeli controlled land in between them. The violence started when Netanyahu, and then Sharon after him, continued to reneg on the Oslo accords by escalating the construction of new settlements in the occupied territories. When the Palestinians lost all hope that the Israelis would ever honor the agreements they signed with the Palestinians, that's when the second intifada broke out. But you knew this because you keep a running tally on my many hundreds of posts on this subject. The corruption of Arafat has nothing to do with the current state of affairs. The current state of affairs is exactly what the government of Israel wants it to be. And it will continue this way until either, A. all of the Palestinians are permanently removed from Israel and the Occupied Territories, B. the world community finds a way to prevent this from happening, or C. Israel and other countries in the Middle East destroy each other in a nuclear holocaust. |
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16 Feb 04 - 02:08 PM (#1117125) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: GUEST,Van Stick with it CarolC. There is a massive imbalance in the aid given to the Palistinians and that given to the Israelis. There is also a massive difference in how UN resolutions on Israel are treated in comparison to other countries. I dislike guests who do not give some form of identity so if I criticise the last guest for his odd view point about Arafat insofar as that Arafat brought the PLO to being an organisation which would negotiate rather than bomb. I hope that it doesn't offend the other guests who choose to have no identity. Why do they get into a discussion? Personally if I lived in a shed and watched other people farm what was my land and live in what was my house I would be well pissed off. |
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16 Feb 04 - 07:53 PM (#1117341) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: dianavan I know I will get bombarded for expressing this thought, but here it goes: If the world felt sooooo guilty about the holocaust, why didn't they give the Jews part of Germany instead of Palestine? I can see no reason the Palestinians should have been pushed out of their homes to live in tents in the desert. I think the only reason the U.S. supports Israel is for the strategic location. Where is the justification for that? d |
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16 Feb 04 - 08:28 PM (#1117364) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: Peace Much of what is present-day Israel was bought and paid for. The quagmire known as the mid-East is not the making of only Israel. Stop blaming them to the exclusion of others and for the exclusion of others. Many states around Israel have expressed the desire to 'exterminate' the Israelis. Most Israelis were born in Israel. The Palestinians have a right to a homeland, but Israel is not the sole reason they do not have one. There is more oil money in various other countries in the mid_East to friggin' pave the Sinai. However, it has been in the political interest of those countries to keep the plight of the Palestinians going. And today, it continues to go on. And no one seems to want to answer the question that started this thread: where the hell did Arafat get the loot, and who did he get it from? I am tired of Israel getting the shit all the time. Look to the Arab neighbours who surround the State of Israel. Friendly? Maybe not. Rich? Yes. And so little of that money finds its way to the uneducated masses. No, sorry, don't give me the gears about how wonderful Arab countries are; common people live in a poverty we can only imagine, and the wealthy remain so. Their wealth is not used to improve the conditions of the average citizen. Israel is far from perfect, but neither are its neighbours. And that can't be blamed on Israel. |
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16 Feb 04 - 08:50 PM (#1117377) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: CarolC Israel is the sole reason that people (whom we now call Palestinians) are being kicked off of land their families have lived on and farmed for centuries, brucie. And that land was not bought and paid for. It's being stolen out from under their feet as we speak. And that's the cause of the present problems beween the Palestinians and Israelis. |
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16 Feb 04 - 09:17 PM (#1117388) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: GUEST To all of you, Mudcatters and guests, who attempt to argue the politics and reality of the Middle East with CarolC, Give it up. She will wear you down as she has worn down so many before. |
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16 Feb 04 - 09:23 PM (#1117391) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: Peace Some of what you say is true, Carol. Not all of it. I realize that many Palestinians have lost their homes to the Israelis. That is a tragedy, and it is wrong. But so too is assuming that Israel is the only bad guy in the mess we call the mid-East. They are not, and you know that. I don't mind calling a spade a shovel, but I will not sit and hear the Arab world lauded for its humanitarian work or concern for the Palestinians. They do not care. They too use the Palestinians as pawns in the game, not just the Israeli government. Let's be very clear on that, OK? Also, someone implied that you are anti-semitic because of your stance in regard to the Palestinian situation. That is not so. I think you are very passionate about the plight of the Palestinian people, and disliking the politics of the Israeli government does not ipso facto mean you hate the people who live in Israel. Please know that you and I will argue this on the odd occasion, but I do not believe that of you. Best regards, Bruce M |
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16 Feb 04 - 09:23 PM (#1117392) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: CarolC I certainly hope so. Nothing would make me happier (in the context of the Mudcat) than to see an end to threads like this one. |
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16 Feb 04 - 09:25 PM (#1117394) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: CarolC My last was addressed to the Guest. I'll read yours now, brucie. |
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16 Feb 04 - 09:36 PM (#1117396) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: CarolC I certainly haven't lauded the Arab world for its humanitarian work or its concern for the Palestinians. But I will say that the Palestinians are not their responsibility, while they are the responsibility of the US, Britain, and Israel. As for lauding people for their concern for Palestinians and their humanitarian work, the ones I mention the most, and to whom I am the most grateful for their good work and their humanity are the many Jewish human rights organizations (and other human rights organizations) who fight this battle every single day. I'd like to see these people get a lot more credit than they do. And thanks again for your good words. |
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16 Feb 04 - 10:08 PM (#1117425) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: Peace If there's gonna be a big brawl any time soon, I wanna be on Carol's side. Carol, I don't know why, but when I read your postings I am reminded of a German Shepherd I once had. She was the most stubborn dog I ever met in my entire life. And she knew it, too. Just thought I'd mention. Also, the remark about 'lauding' was not directed at you. It was a general statement. Have a good evening, Carol. Bruce M |
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17 Feb 04 - 02:20 PM (#1117882) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: GUEST Jewish Arafat? Yasser Arafat may be related to Jews, according to a PLO official's new book. Israel's daily Yediot Achronot on Tuesday quoted "Yasser Arafat and the Zionist Solution for the Palestine Crisis" as claiming that the Palestinian leader's father was born in the Moroccan village of Al-Kidwa and had family links to the large Jewish population there. The author, Razi Hussein, is the PLO's legal and political secretary in Damascus, the newspaper said. There was no immediate reaction from Arafat, who always has claimed to be a scion of the noted Al-Husseini clan of Jerusalem. |
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17 Feb 04 - 03:19 PM (#1117920) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: GUEST Excluding CarolC, is there anyone who actually believes anything that Arafat claims? |
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17 Feb 04 - 03:33 PM (#1117933) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: GUEST Thankfully NO. |
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17 Feb 04 - 07:24 PM (#1118068) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: dianavan Arafat? I believe him no more than any other politician. I am, however, very glad that the Palestinians have a leader strong enough to stand up to the U.S., Israel and Britain. If I were Palestinian, I would be grateful. d |
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17 Feb 04 - 07:35 PM (#1118077) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: Peace I would be curious to know how many Palestinians feel it safe to ask out loud what Arafat is doing with the cash. Don't want to start a row. Just curious. |
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17 Feb 04 - 08:13 PM (#1118096) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: CarolC Re: Guest's 17 Feb 04 - 02:20 PM post - before the Europeans started settling in the region, everyone who lived in Palestine was a Palestinian. That includes Christians and Jews along with the Muslims. And it's not unheard of for Jews to intermarry with the people we call "Palestinians" within Israel and the Occupied Territories today. Do you care whether or not Arafat is related to Jews? Does anyone here care? |
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17 Feb 04 - 09:32 PM (#1118117) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: Peace Not I! |
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18 Feb 04 - 11:42 PM (#1118861) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: GUEST Memo to Arafat from Islamic activist Irshad Manji |
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18 Feb 04 - 11:52 PM (#1118864) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: LadyJean I keep posting that I would vote for Boss Tweed over George W. Bush. There's some method in this madness. The man whose name was synonymous with corruption was also a great friend to New York's working poor. He knew which side his bread was buttered on. They held Tweed in high regard, turning out in droves for his funeral. He may have been a crook, but he was THEIR crook. I think the same may be said for Arafat. He's their crook. Dishonest officials are not unknown in the mid east. The Ottoman Empire was notoriously corrupt. The Palestinians see Arafat as the man who can best look after their interests. So they don't care if he's not honest. |
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19 Feb 04 - 10:30 AM (#1119155) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: Peace Well, he's lookin' after their $300 million, anyway, and no doubt the interest on that! |
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21 Feb 04 - 03:19 PM (#1120575) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: dianavan Price Waterhouse: Do you really think that Bush lives on his salary? What is his net worth? What is the net worth of the Canadian P.M.? What is the net worth of Blair? You don't get to be a major political player unless you have a small fortune to back you. And then its just a means to an end. That end being more money. Lets face it, not many are into the game for the good of the people. Lets stop believing that politics are about anything other than personal gain. The masses are so hungry for a Messiah or a Christ figure, they'll settle for a warrior. Elect me as queen of the world. I'll be a benevolent autocrat! d |
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21 Feb 04 - 10:44 PM (#1120825) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: Peace And what is the net worth of a fisherman? |
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23 Feb 04 - 09:34 AM (#1121753) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: GUEST,Larry K All this discussion about wealth and not one mention of John Kerry who is worth 650 million dollars and would be the thier richest president ever. (if elected) Of course, he earned his money the old fashioned way. He married for it. Larry K |
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01 Mar 04 - 02:12 PM (#1127158) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: GUEST World bank finally warns Arafat. |
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17 Jun 04 - 10:58 PM (#1209613) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: GUEST Arafat's money. |
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17 Jun 04 - 11:04 PM (#1209615) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: Amos Larry K: The Heinz fortune doesn't belong to Kerry, I believe. A |
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18 Jun 04 - 12:19 AM (#1209642) Subject: RE: BS: Arafat's $300 million From: Peace GUEST: Thank you. Now we know. |
