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12 Mar 03 - 12:30 AM (#907939) Subject: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: Amos From those of us in the United States who still have a few ideals left to rub together, warmest congratulations to Canada for providing the first President of the International Criminal Court, Philippe Kirsch of Canada. The Court was founded today at the Hague. Details can be found here in the International Herald Tribune. http://www.iht.com/articles/89441.html Regards, Amos |
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12 Mar 03 - 12:34 AM (#907941) Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: katlaughing "facing a boycott by the US"...why am I not surprised? Congrats, Canada! |
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12 Mar 03 - 12:48 AM (#907950) Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: Rustic Rebel That is interesting Amos. I have been thinking about Canada quite a bit lately just wondering where they stand on a lot of issues. I never hear much about them politically. Is it true it is like Sweden and a neutral nation? I think I like this plan they have, United States probably fears it, the reason for the boycott. They might start looking our way at the criminals in this country! Peace. Rustic |
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12 Mar 03 - 06:20 AM (#908051) Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: gnu Neutral ? No. |
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12 Mar 03 - 09:32 AM (#908169) Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: *daylia* Amos thanks for the link. Strangely enough, I could find no mention of Kirsch's appointment either on the CBC or in Toronto's major newspapers this morning. Seems like the US is trying everything in it's power to secure immunity from international law. I found this quote pretty scary stuff: "...only the United States actively tried to block the court's creation ... Bush has secured bilateral treaties with 22 countries granting U.S. citizens immunity from arrest warrants issued by the international court. Congress also adopted legislation empowering the president to use "all means necessary" to free Americans taken into the court's custody." Rustic - Canada is not now, nor ever been 'neutral' in war. We're often overlooked though, probably because our contributions - though often most vital - are relatively small, reflecting our population. We fought in both World Wars long before the US got involved in either. It's often said that the sacrifice the Canadians made at the slaughter of Dieppe (almost 4000 casualties out of a landing party of 5000) was vital to the success of the D-Day landing a couple days later. And there are thousands of Canadian soldiers buried in Belgium today. I believe those graves were the inspiration for the famous poem "In Flander's fields the poppies grow ..." Here's some information about the Canadian military contribution to the American Civil War. And to find out about how we participated in the Vietnam war, Korea and other conflicts, click here. No, we've never been neutral. However, "There has never been a war of Canadian origin, nor for a Canadian cause." - WA Deacon, Canadian writer Now that puffs me up with pride a bit! daylia |
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12 Mar 03 - 01:12 PM (#908309) Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: CarolC Very cool! Congratulatons Canada! |
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12 Mar 03 - 06:21 PM (#908550) Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: *daylia* Found at a funny site called WeDoNotLiveInIgloos... "On the sixth day God turned to Archangel Gabriel and said: "Today I am going to create a land called Canada, it will be a land of outstanding natural beauty. It shall have tall majestic mountains full of mountain goats and eagles, beautiful sparkling lakes bountiful with bass and trout, forests full of elk and moose, high cliffs over-looking sandy beaches with an abundance of sea life, and rivers stocked with salmon." God continued, "I shall make the land rich in oil so as to make the inhabitants prosper, I shall call these inhabitants Canadians, and they shall be known as the most friendly people on the earth." "But Lord," asked Gabriel, "don't you think you are being too generous to these Canadians?" "Not really," replied God, "just wait and see the neighbours I am going to give them!" He he ... Well, it's a little funny, eh? ... daylia |
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12 Mar 03 - 06:31 PM (#908557) Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: Rustic Rebel Thanks Daylia for that info. That last article on Vietnam vets was interesting to me because I never knew that Canadians were enlisted into the US military. It talked about draft evaders going to Vancouver and that is why I was wondering a little about Canada, because I had just recently met a Vietnam draft dodger that went to Vancouver and lived there for 12 years before returning to the US. I swamped him with tons of questions about it because he was the first I had ever met. He told people I was interviewing him! But now I wonder if he was just full of shit, because he's the one that told me Canada was a neutral. If I ever see him again I'll have to ask him! Another thing I learned today was about Canada being a colony of Great Britain until 1867. I never knew that either. Thanks. I want to know more! What is up with Canadians fighting in the US military? Don't you have a military up there? And why don't you recognize the Vietman vets? And is this thread drift Amos?! Peace. Rustic |
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12 Mar 03 - 06:37 PM (#908560) Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: Jack the Sailor Canada's stance on the conflict with Iraq (Canada) called for compromise on setting a deadline and schedule for Iraqi compliance with demands for disarmament. He said Iraq should be given a three-week ultimatum to meet disarmament demands. "We are convinced that Iraq is substantially contained and that if it co-operates, the disarmament of Iraq can be had without a shot being fired," said the ambassador repeating what Prime Minister Jean Chrétien said in an interview on the weekend. From this cbc article http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2003/03/11/unsc030311 |
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12 Mar 03 - 07:09 PM (#908582) Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: *daylia* Yep, we have a military Rustic. Looks like the Canadians who fought in the Civil War joined the American army(ies) because they badly needed the job at the time, among other reasons quoted in the article. I don't remember learning that in history class! Not sure about why the Canuck Vietnam vets get overlooked - except that there was so very few of them compared to other wars, perhaps. Our population is only 27 million - 1/10 that of the US - about the same as the city of LA? It makes sense from an evolutionary point of view that the top priority for Canadians must be making a living in this harsh climate, not fighting foreign wars. The US has long been the world's leading producer and stockpiler of WMD, so there's not much point in trying to compete, is there? But Canada continues to maintain only enough of it's Armed Forces to meet it's UN and NATO obligations. Beefing them up when Uncle Sam calls, of course. And that's only because economically the US is by far our biggest trading partner. Kinda like an umbilical cord, like it or not. In light of the current situation though, it's sure gettin harder to find reasons to like it, eh? daylia |
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12 Mar 03 - 07:57 PM (#908623) Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: Rick Fielding Rebel, I'm afraid your friend simply didn't know much about Canada'a system and history. Not surprising. FEW Canadians and virtually NO Americans know ANYTHING about us! I know an awful lot of folks who sure want it that way (I'm one of them) Canada's job has been as peace-keepers for quite a while now, for several reasons....Number one: we have health care for EVERYONE here, rich or poor.....and a very small military budget. The US thinks we're craven cowards! Have you heard the term "Soviet Canuckistan"? We trade with Castro and haven't lynched a black person in a longgggg time! But......What's the national character like? Well I travel a lot, and I have found that we are surprisingly a bit of a dour culture. American stores? No question....staff ten times friendlier than Canadians. American Restaurants? Bigger, better portions and usually served with a smile. Yup...I LOVE American folks! Sports? Don't judge us on how much we know about baseball, football and basketball (well ya can judge ME!)....go to a hockey game between The Toronto Maple Leafs, and The Montreal Canadians (or Detroit, or Chicago) and you'll see verrrry knowledgable (and potentially vicious and violent fans!......Joking, I think) What you'll find is that there are almost always two answers to questions about Canada.......yes....and...no, to the same question! We were there (overseas) in 1914 at the beginning of WW I (yup that's when it started), and went to fight Hitler in 1939, at the beginning of WW II. Some went to Vietnam...some totally opposed it...and some came here to start a new life. They're ALL treated with respect 'officially' (I guess there are some rednecks and pacifists who've chosen sides...but nuthin' new in that. Currently our Prime Minister (Jean Chretien NOT John Crouton, as Bush thinks!) is tap dancing so fast he's about to lose his teeth! Obviously he doesn't want to be part of starting WW III (who does anymore?) but wait and see....he's a wily veteran, who could end up being the most important 'peace maker' in the History of the world. We'll see. Rick |
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12 Mar 03 - 08:41 PM (#908660) Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: *daylia* A - (eh?) - MEN to that, Rick! Thank you! :) And now ... oh nooo ... I just can't resist ... "President George W. Bush called Prime Minister Jean Chretien with a pressing emergency; "Our largest condom factory has exploded," Bush cried. "My people's favorite source of birth control is in jeopardy! This is a disaster!" "George, da Canajian pipple would be 'appy to do anyt'ing wit'in der power to 'elp you," replied the Prime Minister. "I need your help," said Bush. "Could you possibly send us 1,000,000 condoms ASAP to tide us over?" "Certainment! I will get on hit right haway," said Jean. "Oh, and one small favor, please?" said President George W." "Oui?" replied Jean. "Could the condoms be red, white and blue, and at least 10 inches long, with a 4 inch diameter?" asked Bush. "No prob'lem," replied the Prime Minister, and with that Chretien hung up and called the President of Trojan. "I need a favor. You got to make 1,000,000 condoms right haway, and sen'dem to Hamerica." "Consider it done," said the President of Trojan. "Great! Now listen mon ami. Dey haf to be rouge, blanc et bleu in colour, hat least 10 hinches long, and 4 hinches in dia'meter." "That's easily done Jean. Anything else?" "Yes," said the Prime Minister, "an print on dem MADE IN CANADA, size: SMALL. PROUD TO BE CANADIAN!" (From the WeDoNotLiveInIgloos site) daylia |
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12 Mar 03 - 10:39 PM (#908728) Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: delphinium Good luck to Philippe Kirsch and the International Criminal Court, they do not have an easy role. We Canadians are also proud of the work done by Louise Arbour as chief prosecutor for the United Nation's International War Crimes Tribunal from 1996 to 1999. (Amos, most of us also appreciate that there are many Americans out there with fine and intact ideals.) dahlia, my flower sister, this appointment was yesterday's news, very prominant on CBC and in newspapers. |
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13 Mar 03 - 12:09 AM (#908789) Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: Rustic Rebel This article also said Russia and China have not endorsed the court, but US is the only one trying to stop it. Another thing in this article that really has me bummed is this phrase GW seems to like to use alot; "all means necessary" He really is starting to piss me off! Anyway it refers to the part where congress (of US) adopted legislation empowering the president, "all means necessary" to free Americans taken into the courts custody. So does anyone have a take on that? What is he saying do you suppose? That if this new world court has an American it's going to be blown to high heaven if they don't give them up? Whoa. Back up the horse Charlie. I guess Amos, you have now given me more research work! How do you see this? Thanks to all for some enlightenment on Canada, your right Rick, Canada is an unknown to many. I knew that about the health care. I know people that come up there to buy medicine because it is cheaper and now US is trying to stop that because they are losing some of that almighty buck. The people I know who are doing it are on a limited income and can't afford meds down here. Pretty sad state we are in. Peace. Rustic |
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13 Mar 03 - 12:37 AM (#908798) Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: Jack the Sailor Prime Minister Lester Pierson won a Nobel peace prize for his work during the Suez Crisis. The concept of the UN Peace Keeper originated in Canada. The trading relationship between the US and Canada is by far the largest bilateral trade in the world, although Canada has a trade surplus with the US this surplus can be easily accounted for in raw materials and energy. Canada is the number one supplier of natural gas. Canada sells Hydro-electricity to the US so that they don't have so much pollution with coal. Canada is the number one supplier of Potash to US farmers and one of those farmers' largest market. Canada historically been the closest ally of the US. Canada gave up land resources and manpower to build an staff the Distant Early Warning Line and Newfoundland had Naval and air bases during the Cold war. Canada supplied the US with uranium for her first nuclear bombs. All of this made Canadian cities Like Toronto and Montreal nuclear targets as were Chicago and Detroit. Canada didn't have to fight the cold war she could have stayed on the sidelines or played one side against the other as many others did. No Country spends more tourist dollars than Canada, no country buys nearly as much manufactured goods from the US. No country supplies as much raw material. Buchanan, Mr. Bush and all those other "patriots" who can't see past the flags on their SUV's can't see this. They want ostracize and criticize Canada because she won't fall into line like a duckling. I know Canada. Canada has never started a war. Canada has never back down from a legitimate cause. Canada will not surrender her principles not for money, not for oil not for you. Long after the current US administration is gone and forgotten, which unless a miracle happens will be two years from now, Canada will be a friend of the United States of America. |
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13 Mar 03 - 05:09 AM (#908867) Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: gnu Geezzz. I'm teary eyed. Well said guys. |
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13 Mar 03 - 08:09 AM (#908963) Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: GUEST,Peter T. You learn something new from Mudcat every day. I read Canadian newspapers cover to cover, and there was zilch on this. Actually, I am somewhat shocked. Where the hell are the Canadian media? yours, Peter T. |
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13 Mar 03 - 08:52 AM (#909001) Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: *daylia* Peter T, delphinium - I just searched cbc.ca, the Globe and Mail and the Toronto Star again, and found ZILCHO about Kirsch's appointment. Then I tried the Ottawa Citizen on an impulse and lo and behold, Voila!! Apparently Kirch's first line of business after his inauguration was an attempt to reassure the US and Israel that they have "nothing to fear" from the new International Criminal Court: " THE HAGUE (CP) - The Canadian diplomat named as first president of the International Criminal Court says the United States has nothing to fear "politically" from the world's first permanent body to prosecute war crimes. "There's no way the court ... could be used as a political tool," said Philippe Kirsch, addressing opposition to the court by the United States, Israel and several other countries, which fear that the judicial body could be misused by political enemies. "It's impossible because of the nature of the rules governing the statute," Kirsch, 55, said in an interview after the court inauguration ceremony Tuesday in The Hague." The US has been campaigning to undermine the Court's jurisdiction from it's beginnings in the late 90's, according to this article. (There's some useful information about the Court and it's history at that link too). I only hope that Mr. Hans Corell, Under-Secretary-General for Legal Affairs, who opened the first meeting of the ASP last fall was right when he said "We see the dawn of a new age in the pursuit of justice…International law will be strengthened. Impunity for those who commit the most heinous crimes will be eliminated". In the meantime, on a lighter note, did you know that the darling of the Toronto Maple Leafs Matt Sundin scored his 6000th goal on Tuesday night?!? (Bin waiting almost 4 decades to see'em win another Stanley Cup!) daylia |
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13 Mar 03 - 09:03 AM (#909011) Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: Amos I think that obsession with ice-sports is a secret key to Canada's long and successful neutrality in day-to-day affairs. I have no idea what Bush means about all means necessary, and it seems to me highly provicative on his part to imagine that an American taken for due cause before the International Court would need to be rescued. I can understand that he would be nervous about justices he couldn't buy. But that isa personal neurosis ofhis, not a valid political position. A |
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13 Mar 03 - 09:03 AM (#909012) Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: Rick Fielding Jeez, when I look back at all that blah blah I wrote it seems positively PATRIOTIC! Hmmmmmm.....and from a true blue cynic. Rick |
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13 Mar 03 - 09:44 AM (#909034) Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: Steve Latimer Jack, Very nicely said. |
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13 Mar 03 - 10:33 AM (#909067) Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: Bill D *grinning at *daylia's* Canadian jokes, which, as you might expect, are generic jokes with new referents plugged in.....The "neighbor" joke has been done with both Israel and Ireland as the protagonist, and I heard the "condom" joke 30 years ago with Alaska and Texas as the ingredients but, daylia...you did do them RIGHT, bless you, and not in Reader's Digest condensed format.. as to the subject, I wonder if honors are due to Canada, or just to a good Canadian? I respect Canada a lot for their system and general honorable participation in world affairs...including wars....but I always have difficulty with national 'pride' in the honors given to an individual, whether it be Pope, Sec. General of the UN, or an international judge. Perhaps it DOES reflect well on a country that a decent person for such a post was produced under their system, but let's do be careful how far we extend the credit. |
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13 Mar 03 - 11:36 AM (#909115) Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: GUEST,Peter T. It is worth stating that Canada's role in world affairs has been diminishing because of lack of money for foreign aid. It is also worth pointing out that there are some selfish reasons for being interested in internationalism -- this has always been used by Canada to try and keep some wiggle room between us and the United States. One of the reasons why the current situation is so devastating to Canadian interests is that we have put heavy emphasis on NATO and the United Nations just so that we would not have to say no to the Americans. It is almost as bad as the Mexican conundrum. I think the most interesting thing about what is happening is that Bush is on the verge of destroying the political careers of Saddam Hussein, Tony Blair, and Vincente Fox all at once!!! yours, Peter T. |
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13 Mar 03 - 12:00 PM (#909137) Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: Amos Wow, PT, he must be a pawahful fellah indeed! No wonder he respectfully disagrees disrespectfully with so many who did not elect him! A |
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13 Mar 03 - 12:22 PM (#909149) Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: Devilmaster I just want to comment on one point. In Windsor,Ontario(just across from Detroit), a memorial honours Canadians who fought in the Vietnam war with a memorial in Assumption Park. It has been nicknamed by Veterans as the North Wall. Canadian Vietnam War Memorial Another photo Steve |
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13 Mar 03 - 12:46 PM (#909170) Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: Jack the Sailor Bill I won't disagree with you Bill, but I will point out that Pierson's contrubution to world peace makes him one of our most admired Prime minister's. A lot of Canadians grew up striving to folow in his footsteps. Peter T what you have said about NATO and the United Nations is insitefull. I would also submit that Canada has also supported NATO because of a traditional alliance with Britian, ties with France and a concern for stability. Canada has supported the UN because it is the best tool for international cooperation and world peace, founded by her ally, the US. I think the most interesting thing about what is happening is that Bush is on the verge of destroying the political careers of Saddam Hussein, Tony Blair, and Vincente Fox all at once!!! yours, Peter T. If this war turns out badly, after the price to the economy and the financial crises in almost all US states, you can add another name to that list, George W. Bush. |
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13 Mar 03 - 12:48 PM (#909174) Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: Jack the Sailor Thanks Steve. |
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13 Mar 03 - 01:28 PM (#909223) Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: *daylia* OK, my son just read my post re the Toronto Maple Leafs and was delighted to correct both my math and my date. So to clear things up ... before I get cross-checked by a hockey fan ... On Monday night, Matt Sundin scored his 1000th point, not his 6000th. My son tells me no-one has ever scored 6000 points in the NHL, not even the Great One (Wayne Gretsky). Sheesh and I was watching the game too! The Leafs beat Edmonton 3-1 that night - maybe it was my excitement or something. Thanks Steve for the information/pictures re the Vietnam vets, and to all for your insights! daylia PS Bill I'm determined to find a non-generic Canadian joke now ... |
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13 Mar 03 - 02:04 PM (#909248) Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: Jack the Sailor Daylia, Now you are starting a serious arguement! Even with the return of Don Cherry's golden boy Doug Gilmore, I expect that my favourite team will turn the tables on them this year and send the Leafs to the links. The Ottawa Senators, with a fast young team and the best record in the entire league have added some muscle and experience for thier drive to the cup. Alas, this wiil not be Toronto's year. |
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13 Mar 03 - 02:12 PM (#909254) Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: gnu Dougieeeeee ! Ottawa ? Ottawa ? I think we should attack Ottawa and get rid of their weapons of mass disruption. |
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13 Mar 03 - 02:18 PM (#909263) Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: Jack the Sailor The area where the Rideau meets the Ottawa river definately be attacked. The Senator's in perhaps their final chance to win a cup as a Canadian team, should be supported. |
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13 Mar 03 - 02:48 PM (#909293) Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: Amos I think that obsession with ice-sports is a secret key to Canada's long and successful neutrality in day-to-day affairs. Notice how deftly this entire very serious thread has been banked off into hockey? It's their national weapon of mass distraction!!! :>) A |
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13 Mar 03 - 02:57 PM (#909306) Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: *daylia* Yo - Jack the Sailor Ottawa does have a fast and highly skilled young team, but players such as Marian Hossa, Todd White, and especially Patrick Lalime have yet to prove themelves as true post-season players. Yes, Ottawa added some toughness by signing Rob Ray and Vaclav Varada at the deadline, but Toronto easily counters that with Owen Nolan and Glen Wesley (don't forget Darcy Tucker either). For the last 3 years, Toronto has had Ottawa's number and I believe they will again if they meet in the post-season. This is probably the best team Toronto has put together since '67 and will be a force to reckon with in the East. You watch for #93. DOUGIEEEEEEE!!!!! Eroc (son of daylia) |
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13 Mar 03 - 02:59 PM (#909310) Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: *daylia* Sorry bout that Amos. I tried to stop him ..... |
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13 Mar 03 - 03:01 PM (#909312) Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: gnu Jack... I certainly agree. That way, the Yanks will have to pay a higher price for them. Go Senators ! (That just don't sound right... should be an animal.. go Beavers, go Wolverines, go Moosebirds.) BTW, we should be selling the Senate to the Yanks since half of the buggers work for them anyway... the real Senate, I mean. Amos.... shhhh, it's a secret. |
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13 Mar 03 - 03:55 PM (#909359) Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: *daylia* OK before this thread moves into sudden-death overtime, here a bit of satire about Yanks and Canucks as military allies. YIKES! And I did find a non-generic Canadian joke, Bill! ... "Did you hear about the guy who had a map of Canada tattooed across his butt? Looks great, but every time he sits down Quebec separates!" daylia |
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13 Mar 03 - 04:30 PM (#909382) Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: Jack the Sailor A Newfie joke that only applies to Newfies (and maritimers like gnu) I sure hopes dat quebec do seperates. Dat'l cut down da distance to Toronto. Eroc, Gilmore is almost 40, and since 1968, Ottawa and Toronto have exactly the same number of cups. You forgot to mention that Ottawa has picked up a good faceoff man and scorer in Brian Smolinski. The last three years Toronto has out muscled Ottawa, with the players they've added it won't happen this time. Guys like team Captian Daniel Alfredson have taken paycuts so that John Mucklar could go out and get what he needed. These guys are motivated! They know that next year they may not be playing for a contender. They are hungry and they are a better team than Toronto's best team since 1967! Cheers mate, its all in fun Rob |
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13 Mar 03 - 11:53 PM (#909622) Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: Bill D *LOL*, daylia...that IS Canadian... |
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14 Mar 03 - 01:27 AM (#909649) Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: Steve Latimer Ah, Jack, at the beginning of this thread you were making so much sense. Go Leafs Go. |
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14 Mar 03 - 02:10 AM (#909654) Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: Cluin Oh, and by the way, FYI, Canada isn't even a member of the UN Security Council that is such a so much in the news right now. We don't have a vote to hold up like a placard or stonewall on. We just supply troops for peace-keeping and as targets for hopped-up trigger-happy bomber pilots looking to score an important kill so they can get on Letterman and... Sorry... I'm still pissed off at that whole situation and how it's been swept under the rug. |
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14 Mar 03 - 07:48 AM (#909804) Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: delphinium Cluin that is a sad situation. Unfortunately, British and American troops as well as Canadian have been the victims of so-called "friendly fire" by US bombers, and of course there are countless civilians killed, maimed, displaced and destroyed by different military machines and scared and dehumanized soldiers ... Canada gets its turn on the UN Security Council, I don't think that makes a difference about meeting UN/internatioal obligations. As mentioned above, it is individuals who should get the credit for their accomplishments, but collectively I think Canadians have maybe a little more interest in the shared public good and space than Americans collectively do - for reasons of our history, geography, political system, and no doubt hockey too! Is this true? Is there a "national character"? Are our jokes different? At the risk of icing the puck here, I'll go back to the original topic and comments that daylia & Peter T didn't see this in the news. Hmm ... I got up in Toronto on the 11th and it was the first item on the CBC radio news at 5 & 6 am. I took a train to Kingston later that day and read it in at least 1 newspaper (don't remember which one). This morning I looked at the Globe & Mail of the 12th and there is a large article with photo on page A10 as well as an editorial. When I search the web sites you mention daylia, I find lots about the Kirsch appointment - eg., 4 articles at Toronto Star here, 6 at G&M here, and various at CBC including one here. Our media ain't great but it's not quite that bad. |
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14 Mar 03 - 08:30 AM (#909840) Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: Teribus "Daylia", One slight correction to one of your early posts in this thread. The Dieppe Raid was in 1942, so maybe it was just a slip when you said a couple of days before D-Day (June 6th, 1944). Germany's Operation "Sealion" was based on the premise of capturing at least a secondary port intact. The Allies looked into the feasibility of doing the same thing - that was the thinking behind the Dieppe Raid. The result showed that the capture of a port intact was not possible - hence the invention and building of Mulberry 1 & Mulberry 2 - both used off Normandy after the D-Day landings. |
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14 Mar 03 - 09:12 AM (#909881) Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: *daylia* Ah Teribus - I'd forgotten that so much time elapsed between the landing at Dieppe and D-Day. I remembered the story from my dad, who served in the CAF from the 50s to the 80s. He made sure all of us understood how important the Canadian "experiment" at Dieppe was in eventually defeating Hitler on the ground in Europe, starting with the D-Day landing. My father often says the Canadians were used as "guinea pigs" to find out if landing on the occupied beaches would "work" - and the Canadians paid the price at Dieppe. Canadians are still regarded as heroes in that part of the world today - the Belgians especially hold us in the highest regard. At least that's what I discovered when I visited there a few years ago! delphinium I'm speechless (well, almost!) that you found those news stories! I searched all those sites yesterday morning in vain! I've bookmarked the pages so I can navigate those sites better in the future - thank you! As to the questions about Canadian 'character traits', I could go on and on but I think I'll just offer these little quote for now ... "If the national mental illness of the United States is megalomania that of Canada is paranoid schizophrenia." - Margaret Atwood, Canadian writer "Britons put up with, Americans fix, and Canadians cope." - Margaret Mead, American anthropologist Cheers! daylia |
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14 Mar 03 - 04:23 PM (#910242) Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: Little Hawk Someone was wondering about Canada's "neutrality". Well, although Canada was hardly neutral in the 1st and 2nd World Wars, or the Korean War, or the Boer War...they were to all intents neutral regarding Vietnam, and the general mood toward America's role in that war was not too positive here. Some Canadians volunteered to serve in Vietnam, many opposed the US intervention there, and Canada served as a safe refuge for a great many American draft dodgers and anti-war activists. One of them was my guitar teacher. Given the fact that the USA holds a huge economic stick over our heads at all times, Canadian governments tend to comply with most US demands and fall into line (somewhat unenthusiastically) with all but the most extreme US policies. It will be interesting to see how Jean Chretien dances the tightrope now between not offending his big USA corporate backers too much...and respecting international law at the same time, given a United Nations which is clearly not in favour of Bush's war on Iraq. It will require much dexterity on his part. - LH |
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14 Mar 03 - 04:31 PM (#910250) Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: gnu George... where you been lad ? Missed your insightful comments over the last while. |
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14 Mar 03 - 06:21 PM (#910342) Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: Metchosin Little Hawk, sorry to pour cold water on what has been a generally, back thumping, Rah Canada! thread but saying "My home and native land" was neutral regading the Vietnam War is a bit of a stretch. This article on what was really going on regarding Canadian Complicity is enlightening for those too young or with short memories. We quite often talk out of both sides of our mouth and Chretien's really good at it, as are most Liberals. |
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14 Mar 03 - 07:07 PM (#910375) Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: Jack the Sailor Teribus, good analysis, I am pleasantly surprised. While the reason for the raid is in question, there is no doubt that those lessons were learned. No doubt the reason you gave was the "official" one. The following link is to an interesting account of the raid. It more or less says that the raid was to prove to the Russians that trying to open a second front would be too deadly and the deaths thousand young Canadians was the proof. I also said that but for a bit of luck some young Brits may have been sacrificed as well. Dieppe Raid I was a Maple Leaf fan as a child, it was thirteen years of disappointment and dispair. Just when I thought that the team was really improving. Harold Ballard would "clean" house and trade away most of the talent to save money on salaries. And why not? If the Gardens had been twice as big its still would have been sold out for every game. The Montreal fans have my grudging respect. When the team lost they stayed home. Montreal had a GOOD team! The Senators may be in first place but they are still underdogs. So in the balttleof Ontario, I'm rooting for them. But against everyone else "GO LEAFS GO!! Little hawk here is a Rex Murphy Column about Canada's involvement in the Iraq crisis. As you can see, I am not the only Newfoundander who can be blunt. Though I don't completely agree, he makes some excellent points. His suggest stance, while morally correct would certianly not be in keeping with Mr Chretien's history. |
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14 Mar 03 - 07:08 PM (#910377) Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: Little Hawk gnu - I was in Trinidad for nearly a month, where I spent about a total of 10 minutes on a computer. This did me a lot of good. I'm now back, but spending less time on the Net. Metchosin - Well, I was speaking about Canadian society in general, not the financial and other maneuverings hidden behind the scenes...but, yes, you have provided an excellent article there, which says a lot about the sorry tragedy of Vietnam...French colonialism, interrupted by Japanese colonialism, replaced by more French colonialism, replaced by American colonialism (under the guise of "helping" a puppet which they themselves created, installed, and propped up...but which they couldn't save with half a million American men and the biggest air force in the World). Canada is right now home to a large arms industry which sells weaponry used to kill people in many places. You are correct...this society is a compliant wolf (apparently without teeth of its own), walking around in sheep's clothing, and assisting the global designs of corporate America. That's because the rich men at the top here get their marching orders (and their income) from corporate America...and God help them if they choose to disregard those orders, because they will shortly be out of a job. The ordinary citizen can do virtually nothing about it too, because all the large political parties have been bought. - LH |
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14 Mar 03 - 07:20 PM (#910382) Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: Metchosin agreed Little Hawk, but at least I'll give the the Conservative and the Canadian Alliance Party credit for being right up front with their rally cry of Go Bush! Go! The Liberals have always been a little more sneaky about their agenda, under their "guise of diplomacy and compromise". |
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15 Mar 03 - 10:31 AM (#910653) Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: Metchosin boy can I kill a thread..........no surprise coming from a dour Canadian cynic with an inability to talk hockey as a diversion. |
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15 Mar 03 - 10:39 AM (#910656) Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: Amos Puck 'em all, Metchosin! :>) If I may say so I think LH is over-emphasizing the corrupt side of business relationships. In my experience those who actually rise tot he top levels of MOST companies are highly intelligent, communicative people with a strong desire to make things better. It's the exceptions, of course, that get all the press -- the ruthless boondogglers and the power-addicts. But I think they number no more than 20% of senior executives in both our nations. A |
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15 Mar 03 - 12:06 PM (#910722) Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: *daylia* Metchosin, the Maple Leaf of my heart wilted a little at your comments and at the article "Canadian Complicity". Yeah, the back-thumping is fun for a while, but the truth about Canadian military and economic involvement in the arms race and in past and present American wars, legit or no, is no cause for celebration. The first thing I thought about after reading your posts was how Canada approved the testing of the Cruise Missiles over the Northwest Territories in the 80s, in spite of the fact that we have declared ourselves a "nuclear-free zone" and that over 80,000 Canadians joined in the protests against the tests. For information click here and scroll down to the entry "Trudeau Defends Missiles". Check out Dieter Birk's article Why is Canada at war with Serbia? for a concise history of Canadian military 'strategy'. It's nothing to write home to mama about: " In summary: We are not a sovereign state, we are at war when our foreign rulers dictate so. We have never been sovereign in foreign affairs since John Cabot claimed these lands in the name of King Henry VII." This picture kinda says it all about the current situation with Iraq. :( Rebuttals anyone? Please!! daylia |
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15 Mar 03 - 12:39 PM (#910739) Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: gnu Our "foreign rulers" are not our rulers. We belong to the Commonwealth, and thank goodness we do. Being part of the largest military force on earth not only has it's advantages, it has it's responsibilities. Are we "ruled" or do we "participate" ? If you disagree with this relationship and it's responsibilities, what do you suggest as an alternative ? |
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15 Mar 03 - 01:48 PM (#910779) Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: *daylia* Well it seems to me we've always been caught in a classic dilemna - damned if we do and damned if we don't. If we are 'ruled' by anything in these matters, it's by our most vital need to participate in the affairs of the Commonwealth, of NATO, of the USA and most recently of the G-8 economic globalization tactics. IMO. daylia |
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15 Mar 03 - 05:02 PM (#910892) Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: Jack the Sailor The other side of the "Corporate America" argument is the creation of wealth in the "puppet states" of Korea and Taiwan. Credit for their prosperity is owed in large part to the US. America exploits but America also builds. I proudly stand by my post of 13 Mar 03 - 12:37 AM. Canada is a loyal ally of the CommonWealth of NATO and of the United States Canada has always steadfastly suported and respected the UN and Canada has often been a voice for moderation and peace within her alliances. There is nothing wrong with Canada's participation in the Arms Race. There is no doubt that the USSR would have pushed into Western Europe had they been allow. We have friends and allies in Western Europe. We had an obligation to aid our allies against the Soviets. Each country in NATO must bend to the will of the other countries or the Alliance will fall apart. Currently the US Administration does not realise this. But they won't be around for ever. Mr. Bush is now learning that the US is not the only voice in NATO, that they are not our masters. That we have wills of our own. I think that the Bush Administration |
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15 Mar 03 - 05:03 PM (#910894) Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: Jack the Sailor Oops that last line is a typo. |
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16 Mar 03 - 09:39 AM (#911199) Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: *daylia* Jack said "Canada has always steadfastly suported and respected the UN and Canada has often been a voice for moderation and peace within her alliances." That's so, Jack, but unfortunately her soldiers are not trained for moderation and peace, but for dehumanized killing. Last night on CBC Roughcuts, Kyle Brown of the now disbanded 1st Canadian Airborne Regiment was interviewed. It's eleven years ago today that a 16yr old Somalian teenager was tortured and murdered by the Canadian "peacekeepers" there. Disturbing memories indeed. Somalia 1992-93. And a disturbing article comparing recent Canadian "peacekeeping" mission in Afghanistan with the criminal activities of Canadian troops in Somalia. "Canada's army, like that of the US, went into Somalia to extend the economic and military influence of the western powers. All the talk of feeding the hungry was nothing but a smoke screen for imperialism ... The Canadian Airborne was keeping the "peace" by torturing and imprisoning innocent citizens in a poor Third World country. The same soldiers are now doing the clean up operation for an imperialist war in Afghanistan. "Peacekeeping" and war making in the hands of the Canadian forces, and under the direction of the Canadian state, are one and the same." Again, let's not thump each other on the back too hard - might end up choking. Peace - daylia |
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16 Mar 03 - 10:15 AM (#911215) Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: *daylia* Sorry that should have read "It's ten years ago today that a 16yr old Somalian was tortured and killed by Canadian "peacekeepers" there." March 16, 1993. daylia |
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16 Mar 03 - 10:48 AM (#911227) Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: Little Hawk Jack - You said that "There is no doubt that the USSR would have pushed into Western Europe had they been allow(ed)" (during the 50 years following WWII). Yeah. Uh-huh. What is never stated in the sacrosanct West, however, is this: There is no doubt that the West (primarily the USA and the UK at the helm, with their allies of convenience) would have pushed into Eastern Europe, the Middle East, and Asia had they been allowed! The Soviets and the Chinese did not allow them to. They would have pushed in by economic means, political means, or military force, if necessary (upon some excuse)...whatever worked. There have been 2 (no, make that 3...) great empires of power trying to dominate the World since 1945 by "all means necessary" (to quote one of George Bush's favourite terms). They were the capitalist corporate West, the Soviets, and the Communist Chinese. They used the following methods: 1. a barrage of political propaganda 2. a barrage of arms sales to interested parties everywhere 3. the encouragement of regional conflicts in disputed areas 4. the fomenting of revolutions and civil wars in small countries 5. the overthrow of regimes by a variety of methods 6. assassinations of uncooperative leaders (at home and abroad) 7. massive marketing of consumer goods (primarily on the part of the capitalist West, but now also on the part of China, which seems to be taking over that effort as an apparently handy surrogate of the corporate machine) 8. threats of all-out war (terrorism, in other words, since the intent IS to terrorize people into compliance) 9. economic warfare of many types 10. the militarization of space 11. the constant development of more and more deadly weapons, including biological, nuclear, chemical, and other weapons. Most of the above, in fact, is terrorism. The empire least successful in these efforts, ultimately, was the Soviets, as they effectively went bankrupt both economically and politically speaking, by the late 80's. The empire most successful (so far) has been the USA/UK/West. That may change fairly soon, since their credibility is almost completely shot at this point. All 3 empires have falsely depicted themselves as the defender and hope of humanity, when they are anything but! They are the tripartite oppressors of humanity. To support any one of them naively against the others is to miss the point. Now I return to my 3rd paragraph: There is no doubt that the West would have pushed into Eastern Europe, the Middle East, and Asia had they been allowed! The Soviets and the Chinese did not allow them to. The West did try to push into Vietnam and Cambodia, but failed. They tried to push into a variety of places in the Middle East, Latin America, and Africa....sometimes with success, sometimes not. The Soviets tried to do the same thing, with similar results. Each served as a counterbalance to the other, which was actually helpful in maintaining a certain level of stability in the World. Now....since the Soviets fell in '89, the West (USA/UK) has indeed been enthusiastically pushing into areas that they were formerly not allowed to by the presence, strength, and influence of the Soviets...and this has resulted in: 1. The complete breakup and ruination of the former Yugoslavia, and a whole series of terrible wars there. 2. The loss to Russia of most of its Eastern and Southern border areas, most particularly the vital oil region of the Caspian! 3. The invasion and occupying of Afghanistan by Western forces in a war which was being planned long before Sep 11, and which has allowed the West to start building its cherished oil pipline from the Caspian, and to resume growing the Afghan opium crop for export to the World. 4. A first Gulf War on Iraq in '91, and a follow-up finishing stroke any day now if Bush gets his way. 5. The destabilization of many other societies, especially in the Middle East. 6. The constant and increasing erosion of the social safety net in North America, and the increasing abrogation of our civil rights. What you had in Europe at the end of World War II was Al Capone on one side of the Line and Lucky Luciano on the other. Now you may prefer Luciano to Capone, but watch what happens to your little neighborhood store when the rival gang collapses and Capone takes over the whole city. Not good. Those guys play for keeps. And yes, I'd far rather have lived in the West than under Stalin, but I fear a World with no checks and balances, and I fear a superpower that has so little respect for World opinion that it simply ignores it and does whatever it pleases! While the Soviets stood strong, it couldn't do that. Who will now police the renegade cop? - LH |
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16 Mar 03 - 11:43 AM (#911255) Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: Metchosin daylia, truly sorry to wilt the maple leaf there with my "icing", don't know if its a national trait or just perversity on my part, but whenever I get truly pumped and proud of my country, eventually this little naggling feeling crops up and a little voice says "not so fast, hosehead" and I eventually throw my own wet blanket on my enthusiastic nationalism. Not that I would want to live any where else in the world for moment, but my wholehearted enthusiasm for this country rests more with the outright, overwhealming, awesomeness of the land itself and a bit less with it's political machinations. |
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16 Mar 03 - 11:46 AM (#911257) Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: Metchosin not to mention the wonderful people, they really count for something too. |
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16 Mar 03 - 12:46 PM (#911295) Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: Rustic Rebel Thanks to all for the insight into Canada. A lot of interesting read here. So say it if I am wrong, but I can assume any war US was involved, so was Canada, and/or visa-versa? Does that include the Korean war? Peace. Rustic PS. We have no hockey here. Our team The North Stars moved to Dallas. Imagine that, all that ice and no hockey team! |
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16 Mar 03 - 01:01 PM (#911305) Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: Metchosin RR, we were deeply involved in the Korean War. |
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16 Mar 03 - 01:49 PM (#911333) Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: Jack the Sailor Rustic Rebel!!! do I have good news for you! click here You people seem to be holding Canada to an astoundingly high standard of perfection. Daylia, the lesson to be taken from Somalia is that Canada did something about it. Those men were punished even though that 16 year old was one of hundreds thieves who were trying to steal food slated to be given to those less fortunate. What they did was wrong but most other countries would not have punished then and certainly would not have disbanded the regiment. No Little Hawk I didn't mention that the West would have also pushed East if it were not for the Soviets. But the West Germany, France, Belgium etc are out Allies, we were sworn to protect them. Point by Point. 1. The states of the Balkins have experienced hundreds of years of near constant fighting. The only thing that kept "Peace" from 1945 to 1989 was the dictatorship of Marsha, Tito, The UN went in there to disarmthem and bring peace. The use of uranium ammunition is very questionable, but the only reason for UN involvement was Peace and stability. 2. Those states were not the borders of Russia, they were the borders of the Russian Empire. In 1866 the Border between canada and the US was not the British border 3. There are thousands of such plans covering every possible situation. What is your point? 4. The first Gulf war was supported by the Russians. 5. There weren't any countries in the Middle East before Britian defeated the Turks. The tribes on the Arabian Peninsula were contantly fighting over water and treasure, killing one another and taking slaves. One of the problems with stability in the Middle East is that the countries are so new. For something to be destabilized it has to be stable in the first place. The last time these places were stable was just befor the British governors left. Do you think they should still be under occupation to preserve their stability? 6. The erosion of the "safety net" has nothing to do with the conflict with the Soviets. Little Hawk, Al Capone and Lucky Luciano? I guess you are exaggerating to make your point? :) It is the real world. I am proud of the choices Canada has made. |
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16 Mar 03 - 06:29 PM (#911508) Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: Little Hawk I wasn't exaggerating by much, Jack! :-) Replace the word "protect" in your sentence (West Germany, France, Belgium etc are our Allies, we were sworn to protect them.) with "exploit and make use of" and I'm right with you. The USA is mightily peeved right now that the French are not allowing themselves to be made use of. I wonder in what way the USA will retaliate? Economic moves, probably... The erosion of our safety net has a very great deal to do with the fact that the world's great socialist powers have been in disarray since '89. It is the key. Remember the "peace dividend" that everyone was supposed to gain from the end of the Cold War? Remember how things were going to get better without all that need for building huge armed forces? That was a lie. The very opposite has happened, and not because of Muslim fundamentalists either...they are another sorry byproduct of the same policies and policymakers from which the peace dividend lie emanated, because those guys built up Osama, Saddam and the Mujahedeen, armed them, and trained their soldiers. The scorpion they created to attack Russia and Iran has now stung them in the hand. I was in no way excusing the Russians...I was merely saying that they served as a useful check and balance in some ways between 1945 and 1990. They are just as obvious in their naked self-interest as is corporate America and its bloodhound, Tony Blair's U.K. To mention 3 opportunistic powers...there are others too. Haven't time for the rest now. Too bad we can't just meet at the restaurant and talk or something. - LH |
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16 Mar 03 - 08:30 PM (#911575) Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: Rustic Rebel Little Hawk- I'll tell you how the US is retaliating against the French right now. It's called alcohol abuse. Ignorant people dumping perfectly good French wine down the drains. Not to mention some off the wall theory to change the names of French toast and French fries into liberty toast and freedom fries. Now that is sad if you ask me.I heard a comment about that this morning and it's like what next? Egg-freedom-young and German potato salad will be just plain potato salad?! Jack! show's how hockey ignorant I am doesn't it! I never heard of this team but I see they beat the Dallas Stars. That's a good thing. Thanks for showing me that site. Peace. Rustic |
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16 Mar 03 - 09:42 PM (#911620) Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: Jack the Sailor A conversation in restaurant would be fun. We could meet in Cincinati, an eleven hour drive for both of us. :)As "much" is a relative term, I will point out that if you replace "protect" with "tickle (our allies) with a feather". You get a completely valid meaning, which is quite different than yours. The present diplomatic debacle is due to the Bush Administration's particular arrogance, complete disregard for history, and extraordinary incompetance. Simply put, Bush is having a tough time with France either because Rumsfeld and the other hawks in the administration want to discredit the UN or because Bush is an idiot. It has nothing to do with the cold war, likewise the erosion of social programs have nothing to do with the demise of socialism and everthing to do with spoiled, selfish ex-yuppie baby boomers whinging and voting themselves lower taxes. That brings me to the point of this points. I haven't lived in Ontario for a while so I have forgotten the unwritten rule that every time we start to feel patriotic then Canadians are obliged to feel guilty and whinge about the littleist things which "prove" how bad we are. People in the US are constantly saying that they have the greatest country in the world saying that the USA can do no wrong. Maybe we can learn from each other. |
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16 Mar 03 - 10:52 PM (#911637) Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: Little Hawk Jack, I am not willing to drive to Cincinnati for a meal! :-) Matter of fact, I am going to stay north of that border until there is "regime change" in the USA, I think. I consider that country more dangerous with every passing day. I kid you not. And not because of muslim terrorists, either... Where exactly are you these days? It has never ceased to amaze me how Americans can say they have the "greatest country in the world", but I'm sure a lot of Germans said that too about the Reich, between 1933 and 1944 or thereabouts. It's typical of the populations of great powers. The British believed for hundreds of years that they were living in the greatest society and the greatest democracy of all time. Canada is a modest country, a very good one in many ways, and modesty is a virtue worth cultivating, since it tends to promote tolerance and the willingness to live and let live. |
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17 Mar 03 - 12:20 AM (#911662) Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: Jack the Sailor LH Patriotism is a good thing when it stops short of arrogance. If we are proud of the good things that our leaders do rather than whining about the bad, more Canadians, like Philippe Kirsch will be inspired to build upon these successes and go out and help change the world for the better. Modesty is good when it allows the people of a country to ask its leaders to step back a bit and listen to its allies, to try to build consensus rather than coerce. To at least be polite when addressing the UN. The people of our countries have lessons for each other. |
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17 Mar 03 - 10:56 AM (#911925) Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: Little Hawk Yup, and courage is a good thing when it stops short of arrogant violence and brutality. Every nation is a part of the quilt that makes up one humanity, and its particular virtues add beautiful color to that quilt. When one nation begins imagining that the rest of the quilt revolves around it, however, the whole quilt is in danger of unraveling...as is now happening. When one nation assumes that it is intrinsically superior to all other nations it becomes a danger to its own people, to its neighbours, and even to the whole world, and yet this has happened over and over again throughout history. It has happened with countries like: Assyria Persia Greece Rome Spain Great Britain France Germany Japan China Kampuchea (the Khymer Rouge) Iraq The USA Israel When this obsession of supposed superiority over others takes over a nation, it commonly uses the ideal of patriotism to justify police state tactics at home and invasion and destruction abroad. One thing is certain: Such a nation finally ends up with much of the rest of the World forming a grand alliance against it, and it is finally brought down from its tower of hubris, and frequently crushed utterly in the process, thus inheriting the whirlwind it released upon the community of nations. That is the fate of tyrants, large and small. It happened to Spain. It happened to Germany. It happened to Japan. Bear it in mind. |
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17 Mar 03 - 11:35 AM (#911983) Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: Jack the Sailor For the sake of this conversation, how about If I admit the the US sucks and you admit that Canada doesn't. |
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17 Mar 03 - 11:47 AM (#911995) Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: gnu Tsk tsk. Not very Canuck of you. |
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17 Mar 03 - 12:01 PM (#912010) Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: Jack the Sailor Yeah Gnu, I know. I really do love it here. But SOME of the things I see make me really appreciate Canada. |
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17 Mar 03 - 04:54 PM (#912063) Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: Rustic Rebel Canada announced today that it was not going to back the US in this war. And the people cheered. Little Hawk, I sadly agree with you on your last post about getting brought down to a level of, for better words, reality. I personally have always had a problem with the US trying to be the leaders of the world. I have stated my opinion on that many times over. Matter of fact my protest sign reads "we don't control the world." It actually sickens me at what is happening here and perhaps this will be a lesson we will have to learn a hard way. Peace. Rustic |
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17 Mar 03 - 04:55 PM (#912064) Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: Peter T. It is worth pointing out that our Prime Minister, about whom I have said some bad things in my time, has just announced that Canada will not participate in this war. Hat off to you, sir: you know well what this is going to cost us. yours, Peter T. |
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17 Mar 03 - 05:57 PM (#912109) Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: Little Hawk Jack - Well, I would never say of any country that it "sucks"...but...hmmm... Okay, I'll say this. I greatly prefer Canada to the USA in a general sense, though I feel that both countries have some good points and some fine characteristics as well as some bad points and some real problem areas. The main problem I have with the USA is the few rich people at the top, and the ceaseless flow of false propaganda with which they brainwash their population. I like most ordinary Americans. I could say the same about Canada and Canadians. How's that? Bravo, Jean Chretien! Bravo! - LH |
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17 Mar 03 - 06:50 PM (#912141) Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: Amos A second cheer for the Canadian nation for their stand on the Iraq war. At the very least they are sticking to what they believe in the face of extreme suasion, and that is worth a cheer all by itself. A |
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17 Mar 03 - 07:00 PM (#912147) Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: CarolC Congratulations to Canada for its Prime Minister's announcement today. Congratulations, also, for this article in the CBC's website: Reality Check: A New American Century |
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17 Mar 03 - 07:29 PM (#912159) Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: *daylia* Yahooooo ... Canada is not going to war?!? And I heard it first right here on Mudcat!! I can hardly believe it ... like, we're finally standing on our own two feet no matter how overwhelming the storms around us get? Could Canada finally be coming of age? Yahooooooooooooo!!! |
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17 Mar 03 - 08:52 PM (#912215) Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: Metchosin Thank you Mr. Chretien!.....even if you are a Liberal.*BG* ya done good. |
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17 Mar 03 - 10:46 PM (#912249) Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: Hester >>>In my experience those who actually rise tot he top levels of MOST companies are highly intelligent, communicative people with a strong desire to make things better.<<< Yowza! Amos, what planet are you living on? Sounds like a nice place. I spent 5 years as an editor of corporate documents, mostly written by Canadian CEOs. Prior to that experience, I thought such people were greedy and evil, but very smart and good at what they did. After seeing the gobbledygook they spewed out of their word processors, I realized that, not only were they greedy and evil, most of them were illiterate and incompetent too. Half of them left their "Marketing Strategies" blank and left me (a freelance editor with no experience in business and fairly radical left-wing politics) to come up with a strategy for them. The client for whom I worked on sub-contract used to tell me to just "make something up" and "wing it". Now, happily, I just write about folklore. Doesn't pay much, but it doesn't make me crazy either. To quote Rhett Miller (who's kinda folky in an alt.country kind of way): "This is what I do ... for a living!" Cheers, Hester ... and geez, looks like I'll have to check the National at 11pm and see what old Jean actually said. So far, he's shown a surprising amount of backbone for a weasley Liberal (plus some tricky subterfuge). |
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18 Mar 03 - 07:03 AM (#912403) Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: gnu Well, I think what he said was just plain Canuck. However, we are not "out of the woods" just yet. There is still a possibility of a UN vote to join in the fray, depending upon the events that unfold in Iraq in the next few weeks. Let's just wait and see what happens. |
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18 Mar 03 - 07:31 AM (#912416) Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: *daylia* Mr. Chretien's statement in the Commons yesterday did not mention the withdrawal of Canadian troops and equipment already stationed in Afghanistan and the Persian Gulf. And he did make it clear that we are still actively engaged in the so-called "war against terrorism" with our ally, the United States. I, for one, highly suspect that the "war against terrorism" is nothing but American propoganda supporting Western "imperialism" in third world countries. So although this is a step in the right direction, as it supports the UN and international law, as gnu said we'll just have to wait and see. Peace daylia |
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18 Mar 03 - 08:40 AM (#912450) Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: Amos Daylia: I am as skeptical of the current government as y9ou are, generally -- but as to the legitimacy of the war on terrorism, there is no question that it is a real and serious issue. Surely you don't need a replay of the unilateral warmongering undertaken by a small group of well-organized fanatics two Septembers ago? A |
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18 Mar 03 - 11:03 AM (#912595) Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: *daylia* Amos I certainly need no repeat of Sept 11 to convince me that "terrorism" exists! However, I am highly suspicious about who those terrorists really are, especially considering the timing of the attacks in the context of George Bush's plans for America even before he was (supposedly) "elected". This is a documentary report aired on CBC's "The National" last night. (The page was not "link-friendly" - sorry bout that). It presents disturbing evidence that the conflict with Iraq is only a small part of Bush et al's agenda of "conquest" of the entire world in the interests of the USA. I've emphasized the parts I feel are most relevant. Confrontation scripted years ago "PETER MANSBRIDGE: As the prospect of an attack on Iraq moves closer to reality, some people are still wondering whether it was all pre-determined. Tonight Neil Macdonald presents evidence that suggests the answer is yes, but the current confrontation with Iraq was actually scripted years ago. GEORGE W. BUSH (U.S. President): (October 11, 2000) ...in the market places. NEIL MACDONALD (Reporter): These words were once uttered by George W. Bush, presidential candidate. BUSH: But I think one way for us to end up being viewed as the ugly American is for us to go around the world saying we do it this way so should you. MACDONALD: Now, one of the President's more recent assertions. BUSH: The world has a clear interest in the spread of democratic values because stable and free nations do not breed the ideologies of murder. By the resolve and purpose of America and of our friends and allies, we will make this an age of progress and liberty. MACDONALD: So, what happened? Well, September 11th happened obviously and George W. Bush had to rethink. But for many of those around Bush, there was no rethink. There didn't have to be. Long before September 11th, a small influential group of neo-Conservatives here in Washington had wanted to see the United States transformed into a sort of benevolent ruler, unchallenged, astride the world. And long before George W. Bush was elected, they sat down and wrote down a manifesto. JAY BOOKMAN (Deputy Editorial Page Editor, The Atlanta Journal Constitution): It basically saying the United States has to take responsibility to enforce peace around the world and enforce what they call American principles and American interests. MACDONALD: The document was effectively a charter of the project for a new American century, a neo-Conservative think tank in Washington. BOOKMAN: The founding members included Donald Rumsfeld, Dick Cheney, Wolfowitz, Paul Wolfowitz of the Defence Department, Richard Pearl, head of Defence Advisory Board, Lewis Libby, Cheney's chief of staff, John Bolton under Secretary of State for arms control, Eliot Cohen who's on the defence policy board. MACDONALD: Much of what these men wanted is coming true. They urged U.S. abandon the anti-ballistic missile treaty. It has. They wanted establishment of more permanent U.S. military bases abroad. That is happening in the Philippines and in Georgia and will likely happen in Iraq. They urge regime change as a goal of foreign wars, not just in Iraq. They wanted the U.S. as a global constabulary - their word - unburdened by the UN or world opinion preventing any challenge to U.S. dominance. But, they wrote, a year before September 11th, such aspirations are unlikely to be realized without a catastrophic and catalyzing event, like in Pearl Harbour. William Crystal, a leading neo-Conservative and director of the project for a new American century believes such goals are good and right and he's delighted with all the success but he says there's more to do. WILLIAM CRYSTAL: We haven't persuaded the Bush administration of everything. I think we need to spend more on defence. I think they need to rethink their policy towards Saudi Arabia. They kicked the can down the road on North Korea but obviously they're going to have to deal with that. MACDONALD: The U.S. has Gary Cooper in High Noon, says critics, standing tall, all alone, building a new American empire in a new American century. Neil Macdonald, CBC News, Washington." I have quite a few problems with Bush's statements: How can Bush claim that "stable and free countries [I assume he means the US] do not breed the ideologies of murder" when the US has one of the highest homicide rates in the world? This 1997 report shows that America has the highest rates of childhood homicide, suicide and firearm-related death among industrialized nations. Wouldn't the rest of the planet would be much better off if the Americans kept their "stable and free" (choke!) culture to themselves! How the H*** does one "enforce peace" in the world? Seems to me that "peace" must be freely chosen, or it's not "peace" at all! What, or Who gives Americans the right to enforce "American principles and American interests" on anyone else? Oh, maybe it's that "God" in "In God We Trust"?! ;) The US as a "global constabulatory", unburdened by global opinion, the UN and international law? Now that's a chilling prospect indeed! But not half as chilling as the statement "before September 11th, such aspirations are unlikely to be realized without a catastrophic and catalyzing event, like in Pearl Harbour." So Bush needed a "catastrophic and catalyzing event" to get his plans for world domination off the ground? Geez, and then, just like a miracle, those pesky "terrorists" came through for him on Sept 11! What a very odd coincidence indeed! Betcha our Dreaded Guest would have a heyday with that one! When the CBC starts playing much the same tunes as the "infowars" conspiracy theorists, I really start to wonder! Time will tell ... daylia |
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18 Mar 03 - 01:17 PM (#912728) Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: Jack the Sailor I really don't think that The Republicans are responsible for 9/11. But I do think the 9/11 was the deciding factor in the implimentation of Wolfawitz's plan. Its a response to the question. How can the US guarantee that a terrorist group can never again cause mass destruction. I can see their reasoning. I just don't think it will work. |
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18 Mar 03 - 01:59 PM (#912769) Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: Hester >>>the United States transformed into a sort of benevolent ruler, unchallenged, astride the world<<< Um ... how would that predicted future differ from the status quo we've lived with ever since the end of the Cold War? Oh, I see! In future, the U.S. government is going to be "benevolent" in its attempts at world domination. Scary times. Sigh, Hester |
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18 Mar 03 - 02:51 PM (#912801) Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: Amos Daylia: The coincidence of thought in the document you mention and the fact that Bushwah's principals were part of the group that wrote it is definitely unsettling as far as insight into their real "vision". But I think the notion of their manipulating a terrorist strike killing thousands in order to march into their dreams is farfetched. And far as the power of the United States, the ideology of murder is not part of our (the U.S.') collective character--certainly, at least, not an acknowledged part; it arises all too often in the most suppressed and psychotic of our citizens, and that seems to include those guiding Mister Bush's so-called policies in the world. This is generally not true, however, of self-defence. Unfortunately Mister Bush seems to have confused the two. I believe that he is mentally...challenged. A |
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18 Mar 03 - 03:06 PM (#912811) Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: CarolC Um ... how would that predicted future differ from the status quo we've lived with ever since the end of the Cold War? Oh, I see! In future, the U.S. government is going to be "benevolent" in its attempts at world domination. Hester, I think you miss the point. In the scenario envisioned by the Project for a New American Century, you can remove the word "attempts at" from your second sentence, ie: "In future, the U.S. government is going to be "benevolent" in its domination of the world". |
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18 Mar 03 - 05:42 PM (#912931) Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: Jack the Sailor Hmmmm, :) in the past the US has constantly waivered between involvement and isolationism. Now they want to get VERY involved. at least we'll all be taking our orders from "the best country in the World". |
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18 Mar 03 - 11:03 PM (#913117) Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: Little Hawk Amos - I've been reading some interesting stuff about Bush in a book called "Bush's Brain - How Karl Rove Made George W. Bush Presidential". It's a good and balanced book, I think, by two respected Texan journalists who've known Bush and Rove personally for many years, and who seem to rather like George Bush on a personal level, while disagreeing with his policies. The impression I get very strongly is this: Bush is NOT stupid, he's no moron...neither is he brilliant or what you would call extremely smart. He's a man of fairly average intelligence, with the benefit of a good deal of personal charm (though that's been less evident of late, given the crisis he is involved in now). Karl Rove (Bush's chief political and campaign advisor) is a brilliant man and an almost completely amoral one who will do absolutley anything to win. That's all he wants in any situation, he wants to win and to utterly crush his opponents. To read about his career guiding G.W. and other Republicans to electoral victories is to experience cold chills. I think Bush is a rather ordinary, once quite likeable guy...who has been corrupted to a great extent by his handlers, most notably by Rove. I think the present administration is now the most dangerous regime the World has seen since 1939, and maybe even more dangerous than that. Check out the book if you have the time. It's fascinating, though very detailed reading, and it does not bode well for the future of either America or the World in general. These guys take no prisoners, if you know what I mean... - LH |
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19 Mar 03 - 06:36 AM (#913261) Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: Dave Bryant *Daylia* It's often said that the sacrifice the Canadians made at the slaughter of Dieppe (almost 4000 casualties out of a landing party of 5000) was vital to the success of the D-Day landing a couple days later. Over a year and a half later ! |
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19 Mar 03 - 08:12 AM (#913303) Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: Amos LH: Thanks for the book. I'm aware of Rove, the quiet hand behind the throne. Between Rove, Rumsfeld, Ashcroft, and two or three other second stringers, the Administration is a nasty den indeed, although nowhere as nasty as Hussein & Sons. It really seems Berkeley was tight about the corruption that comes with power in human affairs. You might also enjoy "The Bush Dyslexicon", a telling analysis. I still object to him, although I know he's in a very difficult position. I haven't seen any of the charm you mention. A |
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19 Mar 03 - 08:43 AM (#913322) Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: Teribus Re: Dieppe Raid: The attack upon Dieppe took place on August 19, 1942. The troops involved totaled 6,100 of whom roughly 5,000 were Canadians, the remainder being British Commandos and 50 American Rangers. Of the 4,963 Canadians who embarked for the operation only 2,210 returned to England, and many of these were wounded. There were 3,367 casualties, including 1,946 prisoners of war; 907 Canadians lost their lives. As "Daylia" mentioned the lessons learned were vital to the success of D-day, all of the following came about as direct or indirect results of the Dieppe Raid: Mulberry Harbours Steer clear of towns Don't land on shingle beaches Perform detailed and accurate beach surveys prior to landing Requirement for specialist armour to overcome strong-points and obstacles - "Hobarts Funnies" Improved co-ordination of joint arms operations Improved fire control plans Invention of Decca navigation system PLUTO |
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19 Mar 03 - 10:01 AM (#913377) Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: *daylia* Thanks Teribus for clearing up my error re the time lapse between Dieppe and D-Day (again)! Yesterday I noted that in his statement to Parliament March 17, Prime Minister Chretien did not mention the withdrawal of Canadian troops already stationed in Afghanistan and the Persian Gulf. Looks like I spoke too soon ... withdrawal of Canadian troops from Qatar began yesterday. Article here. A couple days ago my father, a Canadian Armed Forces veteran, told the family that the most pressing reason for Chretien's decision is that most of our military equipment is out-dated and in deplorable condition (unlike our fine servicemen and women of course). Last night's CBC story about our Sea King helicopters seems to confirm his statement. Apparently, Canada's "failure to provide new electronic night vision gear has forced missions to be scrapped, and makes Sea Kings unwelcome as participants in missions with allied forces." Not exactly a proud Canadian moment! However, kudos to Jean Chretien for refusing to participate in an illegal invasion of a sovereign nation. According to his statement in the Commons yesterday, "the goal of disarming Saddam Hussein could have been achieved if Iraq was given a few more weeks to comply with UN weapons inspections," and "forcing a regime change is not desirable. Many leaders in the world are not his friends, but, he adds, only the local people have the right to change government. "If we change every government we don't like in the world where do we start? Who is next?" Good question! Way back in Sept 2002, Mr. Chretien said he needed clear evidence that Hussein possessed WMD before he would join in a US-led attack without UN auspice. He said ""A proof is a proof. What kind of a proof? It's a proof. A proof is a proof. And when you have a good proof, it's because it's proven." Not exactly Shakespeare, but his level-headed eloquence still outshines Dubya's in my opinion! And he makes a lot more sense, from the perspective of humanitarianism and international law than the Canadian Alliance Party's Stephen Harper, who says "The important thing is that always Canada should work closely with its closest allies, particularly its military allies… That's where our bread is buttered." Hey Mr. Harper - ever tried your bread without butter? Still tasty, less calories and a lot better for your health! daylia |
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19 Mar 03 - 10:48 AM (#913423) Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: *daylia* Oh yes, I wanted to respond to Amos who said And far as the power of the United States, the ideology of murder is not part of our (the U.S.') collective character--certainly, at least, not an acknowledged part..." As a Canadian inundated with American "culture" via TV and movies all my life, I know very well the American love of and fascination with murder, war and violent crime. American murderers end to become cultural 'icons' - almost 'heroes'. Look at Jeffrey Dahmer and OJ Simpson! Violence and crime continue to be Hollywood staples, the more graphic and demented the better - and especially if sex is combined with the violence. TV cop/forensic science shows are top of the ratings lists. And American weapons manufacturers make a huge killing every year providing guns to anyone who wants them, that the slaughter continue. American history is just one bloody conquest after another. It speaks for itself. And the statistics speak for themselves too. According to the article I linked you to above," The homicide rate for children in the United States was five times higher than that for children in the other 25 countries combined (2.57 per 100,000 compared with 0.51)" Yes, American children are born and bred for dehumanized violence and war. US Army video games are now free for the downloading for any American teenager. Now Big Brother can train them for killing, in the comfort of their own homes without even having to pay them a salary! What a breakthrough for those revered American principles and foreign interests! IMO this world would become a much safer, peaceful place if Americans honestly acknowledged who they really are, and worked to change it. daylia |
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19 Mar 03 - 11:03 AM (#913440) Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: Rick Fielding WHOOPS, payback time has begun! They started X-RAYING trucks crossing the border at three points, the Peace bridge, Fort Erie, and Lewiston (which they subsequently closed with a five km. long line of trucks.) Just the beginning. Ohhhhh, are we gonna get our little Soviet Canuckistanian wrists slapped! Cheers Rick |
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19 Mar 03 - 11:11 AM (#913452) Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: *daylia* Oh well, Rick. Looks like we may just have to get used to having our bread without the butter, so to speak. Good. At least we have the bread - unlike the Iraqis. daylia |
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19 Mar 03 - 02:32 PM (#913706) Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: Little Hawk Uh-huh. They can do what the hell they like at the border (I speak somewhat facetiously when I say that)...I am not going to the USA anyway. I am not going near the USA. The USA is a rogue nation out of control. I may consider going there again, after regime change. I hope it doesn't take too long. I am sorry that George Bush has such crazy advisors. - LH |
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19 Mar 03 - 04:12 PM (#913801) Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: Amos You know how it is, daylia -- you can never find a cop around when you need one!! But when you don't they're all over your front yard. Seriously, I submit you are confusing our culture with the barbarian rituals of our most uncultured. THis is like asserting that the entire Chinese civilization is characterized by MahJonng, opium and Mao. This nation was not founded on the principles of daytime television or Hollywood, anymore than Canada was. I concur that it deeply unsettling to see the US invading a foreign country uninvited and arguably unprovoked, or at least only indirectly. It hasn't happened since the first quarter of the 20th century with the Phillipines. On the other hand we have never been invaded before, at least since 1812, and clearly we are not handling it very well, collectively. I have nothing to say about the mass stupidity of some of our individual citizens. Our public communication channels have never been in worse condition, from news to music. A |
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20 Mar 03 - 10:27 AM (#914482) Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: *daylia* " Seriously, I submit you are confusing our culture with the barbarian rituals of our most uncultured. THis is like asserting that the entire Chinese civilization is characterized by MahJonng, opium and Mao." You're right, of course Amos. *deep heavy sigh* This war is very upsetting, and the discussions about it seem to bring out the very worst in people sometimes, including me. I made some nasty hurtful comments about America on this and other threads yesterday. True or not, I regret contributing to ANY war, including a war of words. I only wish the best for America and Americans, and for everyone affected by this conflict. Love will overcome in the long run - it always does. Thank you for being so gracious in your response. daylia |
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20 Mar 03 - 06:09 PM (#914854) Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: Jack the Sailor Daylia, I was raised in Newfoundland Canada, I had cap guns squirt guns pellet guns, little green soldiers, model military ships and Fighter aircraft. I watched "Combat" and Gunsmoke on TV. I guess I was indoctrinated two :) It seems bad now but things reall haven't changed :) |
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21 Mar 03 - 09:40 AM (#915322) Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: *daylia* Thanks for the :) Jack. I needed that. I was disappointed, although not surprised, that the US airmen who killed four Canadian soldiers and wounded eight others in the recent 'friendly fire' incident in Afghanistan will not face court-martial for their deadly, drug-induced (?) error of judgement. Information here. Of course, this was the decision of an American court. It seems that the creation of the International Criminal Court couldn't have been more timely. Now, if it could be backed up by a viable system of enforcement and deterrence provided by the international community and not just the Americans, maybe some real progress could be made in reducing criminal military activities and other so-called "accidents". daylia |
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21 Jul 03 - 09:31 AM (#987442) Subject: RE: BS: Congratulations to Canada From: Uncle_DaveO Two friends lived in Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, Canada. They were sick of winter, so they went to a travel agent and booked a trip to Australia. When the two friends got off the plane - still wearing their down jackets, wool hats and snow boots - they wandered into a pub and sat down. The locals wondered about these strangers, so one of the Aussies walked over to the visitors and said, "G'day, mates. Where're you from?" "Saskatoon, Saskatchewan," one of the Canadians replied. "Oh," said the Aussie, returning to his table. "So where are they from?" the other locals asked. "Don't know," replied the Aussie. "They don't speak English." |