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21 Apr 03 - 10:13 AM (#937067) Subject: Violence is the American Way? From: *daylia* For those of us who've lived and studied outside the US, the decidely American propensity towards war and violent crime is "common knowledge", verified by not only history and crime statistics but also the content of American TV, movies and music. However, when I've mentioned this on Mudcat I've been puzzled at the response from American Catters (and GUESTS) - often, they either deny it outright or display large gaps of knowledge concerning their own 'national character', at least as it's seen by other nations. I wondered why this was so ... have non-American historians and sociologists doctored statistics and taught lies about the US then? ... until I found this article yesterday - Violence is the American Way. It claims, among other things that "The reality untaught in American schools and textbooks is that war – whether on a large or small scale – and domestic violence have been pervasive in American life and culture from this country's earliest days almost 400 years ago. Violence, in varying forms, according to the leading historian of the subject, Richard Maxwell Brown, "has accompanied virtually every stage and aspect of our national experience," and is "part of our unacknowledged (underground) value structure." Indeed, "repeated episodes of violence going far back into our colonial past, have imprinted upon our citizens a propensity to violence." Thus, America demonstrated a national predilection for war and domestic violence long before the 9/11 attacks, but its leaders and intellectuals through most of the last century cultivated the national self-image, a myth, of America as a moral, "peace-loving" nation which the American population seems unquestioningly to have embraced." The article contains some very interesting statistics and analysis. Please note - I'm not posting it here to point the finger at anyone, but to hopefully generate some peaceful - and eye-opening - discussion about the claims it makes. Thanks all - daylia (hoping to deepen my understanding of my neighbours). |
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21 Apr 03 - 10:15 AM (#937068) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: *daylia* Oops, forgot the non-music tag (again) ... sorry, folks. daylia |
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21 Apr 03 - 10:15 AM (#937069) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: catspaw49 We are NOT a violent country! You oughta' be shot for posting something like that!!!! Spaw |
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21 Apr 03 - 10:18 AM (#937071) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: *daylia* :) Thanks Spaw! Oh, put me out of my misery - quick!! |
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21 Apr 03 - 10:31 AM (#937081) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: Amos Yeah, Spaw -- lean on 'er a little... Daylia: There have been many collisions in the history of this country and they have often gotten violent. The collisions between the Irish gangs of New York and the Italians; the collisions between the Puerto Ricans and the Afro-Americans; the collisions between segregationists and integrationsits; the collisions between the labor unions and the owners of industry; the collisions between statists and Federalists. We were born out of a collision of deeply-held interest and belief. We have a tradition of being willing to fight. Quite so. But that does not mean that every American is a violent person. Nor does it mean that we seek violence out. No-one in my immediate family has ever been involved in any violent activity, aside from a couple of minor schoolyard scraps. I know a few people who were violent as soldiers in various wars, whose tales could make your scalp crawl, but they were engaged in war against people who were equally if not more so. When I look at the history of genocide in Africa and Yugoslavia, the insanity of war in Korea and Vietnam totally aside from the American part, the role of gratuitous violence in Germany's history, the statistics of Stalinism, and the sweeping chaos engendered by Pol Pot in Cambodia, I have to say I believe that your article is pointing to the wrong side of the equation. It is just possible that violence is a deeply rooted human aberration, and not an American trait in particular. A |
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21 Apr 03 - 10:48 AM (#937091) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: Rick Fielding From a Canadian's point of view. I've done a great deal of traveling over my life and I can easily say that the thousands of Americans I have MET are probably the LEAST potentially violent of the lot. I do a great deal of joking on the cat, but I'm serious about this. Cheers Rick (don't shoot me, Spaw) |
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21 Apr 03 - 10:50 AM (#937092) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: Uncle_DaveO Can someone get this transferred to the BS section? |
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21 Apr 03 - 10:51 AM (#937094) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: mack/misophist As understand it, the lady is saying that the US has a culture of violence; one in which violent solutions are often preferred over peaceful ones. I believe it to be true. When I was a boy in Ft Worth, Texas; 40 odd years ago, there were 3 "gin mills" down the street from us. They averaged 2 or 3 stabbings a week, about 1 shooting per fortnight, and 2 or 3 deaths per year. That was 'normal'. No one made any fuss to close them down. Yes, I think the US is violent. |
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21 Apr 03 - 10:54 AM (#937097) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: MMario obviously the Spanish/Mexican influence. |
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21 Apr 03 - 11:04 AM (#937109) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: Amos Misoph: Why would you take the measure of this country from three border-town gin-mills? From a broader point of view it is obvious that an individual -- any individual -- can fall into a band of insanity where violence is the dominant emotional state. It is a desperate condition wherein one perceives oneself to be at great risk and out of options. Thisis not usually a true perception, except in cases of war or |
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21 Apr 03 - 11:08 AM (#937111) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: Clinton Hammond I don't think that American has a monopoly on violence, not by a long shot... I think of it more as the Human Way... We're a violent little cruddy species... But then again, it's a violent little cruddy world... The natural order is that you kill something (Or a LOT of somethings) every day so that you can keep living... |
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21 Apr 03 - 11:09 AM (#937116) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: Amos Damn tab key.... ...From a broader point of view it is obvious that an individual -- any individual -- can fall into a band of insanity where violence is the dominant emotional state. It is a desperate condition wherein one perceives oneself to be at great risk and out of options. This is not usually a true perception, except in cases of war or street-fights or confronting savage beasts, but it is perfectly real in the seeming. It's more sane than complete apathy but less sane than communicating and organizing, by a long shot. But this is a human mechanism and is just as likely to show up in the back alleys of Kyoto or Mogadishu as it is in the back alleys of Fort Worth. Alcohol tends to magnify it, which is why bars are often the site of violence. It has little to do with American culture. An equally valid and statistically sound argument could be made for the case that Americans are mother-worshipers. A |
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21 Apr 03 - 11:25 AM (#937128) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: Uncle_DaveO I' a 72 year old American. I have never, since about fifth grade, seen a person strike another in a private (as opposed to sporting) context. I have never seen a person brandish a weapon against another, and neither I nor any of my friends or relatives have been either the victims or the perpetrators of violence. |
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21 Apr 03 - 11:32 AM (#937135) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: Little Hawk Violence isn't an American problem... It's a problem of people who value immediate personal gain over morality, law, brotherhood, and long term security. Primitive or immature people, in other words. Such people are found in all societies. It is notable, though, that such behaviour is constantly glorified in American culture through TV, movies, vidoegames, and so on. Immaturity sells bigtime! And as the child is bent, so grows the adult. - LH |
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21 Apr 03 - 11:33 AM (#937137) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: MMario Strange that the oh-so-violent American games, videos, etc, etc; usually have a healthy overseas sales record... |
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21 Apr 03 - 12:49 PM (#937182) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: Peg well said Amos, and others. I think this is a spurious argument, but I would agree that since the American way of life is exported through media then the perception may well be that America is a violent culture...but if people were shown the behavior that goes on in smaller countries (that apparently are not as interesting to TV watchers and magazine readers as the USA) they'd probably have to agree that human beings are by and large a violent lot... the article sounds interesting but I think the exact same principles could be applied to any number of countries with violent histories... Daylia seems to frequently enjoy going on about how perfect Canada is and creating opportunities to take potshots at the USA. The USA is a huge and powerful nation and far from perfect...but coming from a non-US citizen, this is a form of trolling, IMHO. I don't think it's about a deepening understanding and I say that based on the many other posts of yours I've read which criticize Americans and America with a very broad brush...we're an easy target, I guess. |
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21 Apr 03 - 12:56 PM (#937186) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: Amos Actually, all these "Are Americans x" or "Do folkies y" propositions are ridiculously flawed. The logic of a large political label, like "American" being tied to a peculiarity of individual makeup is just dysfunctional thinking. And so is trying to tie something that is globally human to a peculiar subset like being a citizen of the U.S., or eating peanut butter. Are peanut-butter lovers violent? Are fish truly democratic? How many times can you say "yadda" very fast....? A |
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21 Apr 03 - 12:59 PM (#937190) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: GUEST,pdc I agree with Daylia, and the article she cited, that America is a violent culture, although that fact does not mean that individual Americans are violent. It's difficult to separate "America" from "Americans," although I guess one could define the former as the government/leaders. Violence may well be inculcated into the culture as a sort of national characteristic, rather than an individual one: "...the rocket's red glare; the bombs bursting in air..." |
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21 Apr 03 - 01:03 PM (#937194) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: Ebbie Couldn't it be that the mix of races and cultures and varied histories in this country have a great deal to do with both the problems and the successes of our society? As an example- I'm a docent/researcher in a historical house in Alaska- I have been frequently asked by tourists "why Americans move so often? In Europe, we live on the land our great, great, grandfathers lived on." One day over tea, a young Swiss couple asked that question and I finally came up with the right answer. I said, "Because we come from people who didn't stay home. We inherited your emigrants' wanderlust." The USA is unique in its mix of immigrants, people who come here with, by and large, the same dream but bringing with them their own unique culture and expectations. There are bound to be clashes stemming from historical hatreds and distrusts. |
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21 Apr 03 - 01:27 PM (#937206) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: Little Hawk Peg - People are NOT "by and large a violent lot". I can testify to that from the whole experience of my life. A very small minority of people are "a violent lot", and they cause trouble out of all proportion to their numbers, AND...they garner immense attention from the media! Most people are non-violent most of the time, and the media ignores that. Your observation would be better put to say: "All societies contain a certain number of people who tend to be violent." (like about 5%, I would guess...) It should be added to that, that: Poverty and desperation can cause a larger number of people to turn to violence than is usual under more favourable circumstances. That this is so is not a reflection upon the evil of humanity, but the evil of oppression and inequity. Walk through ghettos late at night, flashing your money, and you will discover that to be true...whether in the USA or elsewhere. I'm never impressed by arguments that try to pin "original sin" or its secular equivalent upon human beings. - LH |
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21 Apr 03 - 01:33 PM (#937215) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: Peg good point, LH; I suppose it is extremism that always gets the most attention; hence on the nightly news we see only the worst crimes and disasters...and the occasional rescue of a dog stranded on the ice. |
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21 Apr 03 - 01:34 PM (#937216) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: Wesley S To set the record straight Ft Worth { where I live now } is NOT a border town - if that is relevant to this discussion. Ft Worth is just west of Dallas in north Texas. And I'm curious Misophist - what part of town did you live in - the northside or Jacksboro Highway ? I would think that Ft Worth is a much safer place to live now. |
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21 Apr 03 - 01:43 PM (#937221) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: GUEST,Guest Metchosin I think I would agree with Daylia too, based upon my thoughts when watching the events of September 11th unfold. Apart from my initial reaction to the horror of the situation that was unfolding, I kept hoping upon hope that cooler heads in the US would prevail as a reaction to the event. I was fairly certain even on that day, that the US would go to war over this. I'm pretty certain that I wouldn't have had the same thought pop into my head, had the same kind of event occurred in Great Britain, France, Germany or most any other country in the world, for that matter. |
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21 Apr 03 - 02:20 PM (#937240) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: Don Firth Generally: If you look at America out of context with the history of the rest of the world, you will see a substantial amount of violence. It started with a revolution and expanded with such self-righteously aggressive concepts as "Manifest Destiny." Rarely does a generation go by that the United States is not engaged in a war or major conflict with one or more other nations, or, at times, internal conflicts, such as the Civil War, or some of the early labor disputes, or some of the more violent responses to the Civil Rights movement in the Sixties. But—if you look at the history of other nations, I don't think you will find that the United States is any more or less violent than many other large nations. There are nations that seem to get along very nicely without violence, at least within recent times, such as Canada, which I don't see getting involved in international disputes unless they are dragged into it by someone else (usually the U. S.), and the Scandinavian countries, which, in the main, seem to me to be amazingly civilized compared to most. And if we in the U. S. dropped some of our economic prejudices, I think we could learn a great deal from them. Happy, productive people who have leisure time to enjoy life, respect for culture and tradition without feeling they have to push it on the rest of the world, an effective social safety net with excellent health care, no poor, no inordinately rich, everyone has enough, and they are not aggressive, indeed often coming to the aid of other countries in need. This is something we would do well to emulate (whether they are "socialistic" [shudder with horror!] or not). That is, if our leaders, both in and out of political office, had an ounce of humanity and were not so pathologically caught up in the narrow realms of greed, power-lust, and "our rightful place in the world," i.e. economic and political domination. American ideals are exemplary. But this country, in general, lacks the courage to bring those ideals into fruition. After all, we, the people, are supposed to be an "informed electorate" and our public servants are supposed to be working for us, not just for themselves and their own grasping little cliques. Get off your butts, people! Learn! Get involved! The 2004 election is not that far away!! Personally: Within my own experience (and, like Uncle DaveO, I've been here awhile; I'll be 72 my next birthday), I personally have seen very little actual violence. I have never been involved in any, apart from sporting events—I used to fence when I was younger (fencing is more skill and tactics than physical violence), and I've done a lot of shooting—at paper targets and empty soft drink cans (target shooting is more like golf that anything violent). I have seen about three bar-fights in my life, and a shouting-match/push fest in front of a restaurant once, but it was pretty obvious that it also was fueled by over-consumption of booze. I have seen lots of violence—in movies and on television screens. Of all the people I have met in my life, I can only think of three or four that I would consider to be violent people, and they had mental problems and could hardly be considered "typical Americans." On the other hand, of our national leaders, especially the current ones, I don't consider them to be "typical Americans" either. Don Firth |
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21 Apr 03 - 02:22 PM (#937242) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: Art Thieme I'm with Amos. That said, violence is something that many peoples around the world hold in reserve to be used, hopefully, rarely ------- and after serious deliberation----as with Winston Churchill and William Wallace, the terrorists who destroyed the King David Hotel, the World Trade Center, all the lives lost in Ireland on all sides there, the Corsican and American Mafias, street gangs, the newer Russian mafias, the fights after soccer games, during hockey games, the "police riot" in Chicago during the 1968 Democratic National Convention, and on and on ad infinitum. Include all of the people, armys and weapons dealer war profiteers who FOUGHT BACK in all of these preceeding situations I've mentioned as well as all that I've forgotten to point out. Don't leave out all of the crusades and the tribal wars of Africa, Native-Americans etc. Let us ALL look to our legends for the roots of this sad reality. And as Bob said, "Now is the time for our tears."--------- but crying over this spilt milk ---AND POINTING FINGERS won't change anything. I have no answers. Just "is what is." Americans, at least, have learned to enjoy watching the panorama. Sometimes we take what we see and turn it into art--or whatever. It's a great show---and the film, even if it isn't true, just might lead to freedom for Scotland. ;-) Art Thieme ;-) |
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21 Apr 03 - 02:26 PM (#937246) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: Art Thieme Don, you beat me by two minutes !!!! It looks like we agree. **BIG SMILE** Art |
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21 Apr 03 - 02:31 PM (#937248) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: Art Thieme Well, four minutes maybe ! |
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21 Apr 03 - 02:59 PM (#937261) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: GUEST,sorefingers 1600 Then 'I say native - give me that mountain and valley' Native ' no I will not give it you' Colonist ' all right then ' takes gun and shoots native in the breast. Native ' help help I am dying ' Colonist 'shut up and take your medicine ...yes go and hurry up so I can plant these fertile plains and virgins' 2003 Now ' Hey you raghead - gimme dem oil wells' Native ' no I will not and what is more if you so much as dare to come over here I will shoot you' Colonist ' oh ok then' goes over there and bombs the bejee out of the ragheads. Raghead ' you cheated ' Colonist ' I already knew that tell me something new' Raghead 'ok go away' Coloninst ' only after we steal all your oilwells' Raghead ' fine but don't expect us not to hate yer guts afterwards' |
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21 Apr 03 - 03:03 PM (#937263) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: MMario Great Britain has such a better track record? How many invasions? How many colonies? Crusades? Ireland? |
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21 Apr 03 - 03:04 PM (#937264) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: Peg um...those colonists in 1600 were Englishmen. |
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21 Apr 03 - 03:10 PM (#937265) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: GUEST,pdc Originally posted by Ebbie: "The USA is unique in its mix of immigrants, people who come here with, by and large, the same dream but bringing with them their own unique culture and expectations. There are bound to be clashes stemming from historical hatreds and distrusts." No, the USA is not unique in its immigrant mix. Australia, Canada, England, Germany -- many other countries in the world have an enormous mix of immigrants, either throughout the history of their settlement or in more recent times. |
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21 Apr 03 - 03:21 PM (#937269) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: GUEST MMario, I had second thoughts about including Great Britain in my list, but retained it because despite the Falkland Islands and the ongoing troubles in Northern Ireland, I did not have the feeling that war would be the immediate first response to the event. Maybe overly optomistic. However to me, it seemed certain that America would respond like a large wounded animal, looking around for anyone or anything to take out its fear, outrage and frustrations upon. And for good or ill that was my response as the mouse sitting next to the elephant. |
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21 Apr 03 - 03:24 PM (#937270) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: GUEST,Metchosin Sorry that was me, I'm at my father-in-laws computer while he recovers from a bout of double pneumonia at age 85 |
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21 Apr 03 - 03:57 PM (#937286) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: mack/misophist to MMario and Amos; Ft Worth is hardly a border town. It's pretty much in the middle of the state. And the nearest brown faces were on the other side of Liberty Steel Mills, a good mile and a half away, or more. No, this was solid white, blue collar violence. |
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21 Apr 03 - 04:04 PM (#937290) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: mack/misophist What I perhaps should have said is that America is the only major country that has a personal memory of it's violent youth (the last big cattle drive was in 1909); and treasures it. When I say personal, I mean that I'v spoken personally to Civil War veterans and Mexican - American War veterans. And have an uncle who was shot by Dillinger. |
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21 Apr 03 - 04:07 PM (#937291) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: MMario China? Japan? What's left of the USSR? |
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21 Apr 03 - 05:31 PM (#937324) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: InOBU My Dear friend Uncle Dave O I was mystified at your responce that you never saw another committ violence in America! So, let me ask a few quesitons... (and I AM kidding, so don't take offence anyone, especially dave, meant to make folks smile here...) 1. Are you blind? 2. Have you a habit of killing folks who look like they are about to committ a violent act, so by getting the drop on them, you don't see them committ violence? 3. Are you a hermit, born into a hermit family in Amish country and either don't drink or drink at home as to stay out of bars? 4. Are you a wealthy poet living in New York's west Village? E. Are you one of those Americans who live in an abondoned nuclear missile sylo? F. Are you so sick of these questions you are ready to slug me? Cheers Dave O, and let me know where you live, I want to live there too! Larry PS Off the top of my head, I am not quite yet 50, I have seen a fellow get shot in the heart about 15 feet away from me, seen the imidiate aftermath of two fellows shoot each other, seen a fellow fall to the pavement at my feet from a doorway with a knife in his back, Two large buildings down town fall killing several thousand folks, countless people beaten bloody, cops crack peaceful protesters on the head drawing blood, lots of blood, a girl friend's bloody head after a "hard hat" hit her in the head with a spanner during a peace demo in the seventies, my father right after he was stabbed in the back and neck 11 times, had a bottle broken over my head - unprovoked by a stranger, was knocked down, punched in the face about two months ago by a stranger (didn't like plain Quakes I suppose) was sucker punched unconcious in a bar in Boston after I desegrigated rowing there, well that is just off the top of my head without much thought. |
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21 Apr 03 - 05:34 PM (#937328) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: artbrooks I am a student of history and, I like to think, a little bit of a historian myself, and I had never heard of Richard Maxwell Brown until this thread. He is apparently an Emeritus Professor at the University of Oregon. Like Uncle Dave O (although with a few fewer years), I have never seen or been involved in an incident of violence in my life. Additionally, in three generations of my family, grandfater, father and me, there are 65 years of military service, and none of us ever owned a firearm. Yes, there are probably hundreds of instances of violent crime in the United States every day...and the population of the US is nearly 291,000,000 and it covers over 3,500,000 square miles. |
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21 Apr 03 - 05:46 PM (#937332) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: Amos Inobu: That's a fascinatin' and impressive inventory of physical force, mate. I don't think any of the above were counting what they've seen televised from elsewhere -- they were talking about right there upon them, which is what you've been through. It gives me pause to reflect on the differences. Dunno what to think of it just yet, though. But it is clear ya got clangers of brass. A |
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21 Apr 03 - 06:18 PM (#937348) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: Ebbie A little self-promotion here: If Canada had different neighbors, she might find herself having to defend herself militarily just as a lot of other countries do. In that sense, perhaps the USA helped create the 'niceness' of Canada? (Only slightly TIC...:) Larry, from my perspective, that's appalling. I have not been present at an incident of violence- except once at a party one guy jumped on his brother after the brother had made a belittling remark about first guy's wife, and they rolled on the floor together, scandalizing the whole party. Alcohol was involved. Is it because of your activism as a peaceful Quaker that you have gotten involved in so many violent incidents? I can easily believe that if I were a black woman or man in this country I would be familiar with a wide variety of violence. |
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21 Apr 03 - 06:35 PM (#937354) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: Amos Well, consider her boundary populations: fish, fish, eskimos and Americans. Nice work if you can get it! :>) A |
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21 Apr 03 - 07:07 PM (#937382) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: *daylia* Thanks everyone for your comments, especially those with personal stories highlighting the non-violent nature of most human beings, including Americans. THere's hope in that! Yet such facts as these still remain - that the US spends five times as much as any other nation on it's military ($399 billion last year, as compared with the $80 billion of the second highest nation, and Canada's lowly $7.9 billion according to a list pdc posted on another recent thread). Although it seems obvious, just why is this if war is not the expected and historically accepted "American Way" of dealing with international conflict? - That the US rates for childhood homicide, suicide and firearm-related death are five times higher than any other industrialized nation (click here for the American study and scroll down to the graph at the bottom of the page for easy reference). That's a significant difference! Why is this so, if American culture does not somehow "breed" the ideology/expectation/acceptance of violence as a solution to problems? - That the homicide rates in major US cities are at third-world, rather than first-world levels; - And that according to the current US administrations "Project for a New American Century", the American people are now to rule the world by force, using any and all means necessary to enforce their interests and principles whenever and upon whoever they see fit, with no regard for international law or opinion. As we are currently witnessing in Iraq. This is the part that threatens me the most - hence my concern at the apparent lack of self-awareness among many - not all, but seemingly a majority of Americans. I believe that the author of the first article I linked to has some very vital keys to understanding why this is so - and those keys found in the education system, among other places. I find these comments of particular interest: "Americans have little genuine understanding of the major role played by war throughout the American experience. Historians, however, are well aware that war taught Americans how to fight, helped unite the diverse American population, and helped stimulate the national economy, among other significant things. But this is not the message that they have presented to the American people, concerned perhaps they might undermine Americans' self-image. ... The explanation lies, first, with historians' abdication of responsibility systematically to deal with the issue of violence in America ... and, second, with the American population's refusal directly to confront any very ugly reality – which came first I do not know. This is what historians refer to as " mutual causation." On a more personal level, my sister has lived near Ft. Lauderdale Florida for over 20 years now, and the changes in her attitudes/behavior are quite remarkable when it comes to violence/expectation of violence. She's carried a handgun in her purse for a couple years now, seems to think that it's just not safe to leave home without it, that it's just a natural everyday thing to carry a gun for personal safety. Such an attitude - or need - would have been unthinkable to her before she left Canada, as it continues to be for the rest of the family! I find it hard to imagine what it must be like to feel so threatened by violence that you'd "need" to a gun to go to the corner store - and nor would I ever want to! daylia |
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21 Apr 03 - 07:45 PM (#937410) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: GUEST, heric Daylia: You are just full of piss and vinegar today, aren't you? You GO girl. |
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21 Apr 03 - 07:58 PM (#937419) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: Little Hawk Well, jeepers, daylia...let me just speak for George Bush Jr., since he is too busy saving the world right now to have time to respond to you on these scurrilous accusations! *** Ahem... Look here, daylia, if you're not with us you're against us! Got that? There is a battle ragin' in the world between good and EVIL, and we do not intend to let evil win! You can take that to the bank. Now, fightin' evil is a BIG job, lemme tell ya, and we are not one bit ashamed about spendin' half the whole world's annual arms budget doin' so. No siree! Hell, if I didn't have a weak-kneed Congress to deal with, half-full of pussyfootin' Democrats and even some Republicans who (I'm ashamed to say) do not have the moral fiber to stand up and defend this sacred Union of 50 states we got here...well, I could see easily jackin' defence spendin' up to 75% of the whole world's arms expenditures...or more. Whatever it takes to utterly defeat Evil. I am not the kind to take the bull by the horns and then walk out of the corral, and I am gonna hang in there and keep fightin' until people in this world smarten up and stop opposing the spread of democracy by force. Our kind of democracy, I mean. It's the only real kind there is. I don't see anything wrong with people carryin' handguns in their purses, as long as they are supporters of our democratic system. If they aren't, they had better watch it, cos if too many traitors and other unpatriotic people start packin' that kind of firepower, well, we are just gonna have to take drastic action, and impound ALL firearms for the safety of the American public, and increase the Swat teams and put together a homeland security force of a hundred thousand special paramilitary police with emergency powers. I don't wanna have to do that, but I will if I must in order to protect our sacred values, given by God to these here United States. It's not an easy job to stamp out organized evil, but I intend to do it if I have to build a prison in every damn county in America, and if I have to invade every damn country that won't give our oil companies favourable contracts. The alternatives are too horrible to contemplate. Anarchy, surrender, nukular terrorism, and the decline and probable collapse of our society. I am not gonna let that happen. Like I said, daylia, you're either with us or against us. Dubya |
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21 Apr 03 - 08:16 PM (#937428) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: GUEST, heric $399 billion and can't even frighten you and your sister from feeling all cozy and safe up there? At least you can be glad for the incompetence of it. |
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21 Apr 03 - 08:28 PM (#937435) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: harvey andrews Art...Scotland is free!As are England, Wales and Northern Ireland. They form a federation of States like the States in the US.Home rule is a different matter. If Scotland votes for home rule and its own Parliament it can have it. Many English, Welsh and Northern Irish have no objections as long as Scotland then pays the full costs of its schools, hospitals, roads, defence,etc currently subsidised from general taxation of all Uk citizens, as you would expect Texas to do if it left the Union.Or as many Canadians would expect if Quebec left Canada.And Quebec is "free". (ducks) |
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21 Apr 03 - 08:59 PM (#937447) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: Peg It seems to me you are continuing to make spurious assumptions and what's more are actually usig some very questionable reasoning to defend your claims. daylia wrote: Yet such facts as these still remain - that the US spends five times as much as any other nation on it's military ($399 billion last year, as compared with the $80 billion of the second highest nation, and Canada's lowly $7.9 billion according to a list pdc posted on another recent thread). Although it seems obvious, just why is this if war is not the expected and historically accepted "American Way" of dealing with international conflict? &&--what on earth does the USA military budget have to do with your original assessment, which was that American CITIZENS are violent in their behavior??? Explain your logic please. Even you ought to know a governemnt's actions are in no way definitely representative of the desires and beliefs of its citizens. - That the US rates for childhood homicide, suicide and firearm-related death are five times higher than any other industrialized nation (click here for the American study and scroll down to the graph at the bottom of the page for easy reference). That's a significant difference! Why is this so, if American culture does not somehow "breed" the ideology/expectation/acceptance of violence as a solution to problems? &&--how is suicide related to violence? This is related to depression and inability to cope with one's life. Another faulty bit of logic on your part. - That the homicide rates in major US cities are at third-world, rather than first-world levels; &&--what is the implicatin here? That we are just as violent as "third world" nations? what is significant about that? and if this is true why are you making such a to-do about violence in the USA when, according to your cryptic factoid here, so-called "third world" nations are every bit as violent as we are? - And that according to the current US administrations "Project for a New American Century", the American people are now to rule the world by force, using any and all means necessary to enforce their interests and principles whenever and upon whoever they see fit, with no regard for international law or opinion. As we are currently witnessing in Iraq. &&--excuse me, but you REALLY need to not use phrases like "the American people" in a generalized manner when what you are referring to is a SMALL SELECT GROUP OF POLICTICIANS. That organization and that document do not officially represent our administration; it is a private organization, albeit it's manifesto has been signed by a number of people who currently serve in Bush's cabinet. The government is NOT the same as "the people." Our president did not even win by majority vote. So stop portraying all Americans as if they support these heinous views; the majority of them don't, as evidenced by the results of the last presidential election. This is the part that threatens me the most - hence my concern at the apparent lack of self-awareness among many - not all, but seemingly a majority of Americans. &&--how many Americans do you know personally, then? There are several hundred million of us. Do tell, how it is *you* know how the majority of us think and feel about things. I believe that the author of the first article I linked to has some very vital keys to understanding why this is so - and those keys found in the education system, among other places. I find these comments of particular interest: "Americans have little genuine understanding of the major role played by war throughout the American experience. Historians, however, are well aware that war taught Americans how to fight, helped unite the diverse American population, and helped stimulate the national economy, among other significant things. But this is not the message that they have presented to the American people, concerned perhaps they might undermine Americans' self-image. ... The explanation lies, first, with historians' abdication of responsibility systematically to deal with the issue of violence in America ... and, second, with the American population's refusal directly to confront any very ugly reality – which came first I do not know. This is what historians refer to as " mutual causation." &&--this is all more of the same sort of broad-brushstroke generalizing. It would be nice to see some acknowledgement of the political, social, economic, racial and educational diversity of our nation. On a more personal level, my sister has lived near Ft. Lauderdale Florida for over 20 years now, and the changes in her attitudes/behavior are quite remarkable when it comes to violence/expectation of violence. She's carried a handgun in her purse for a couple years now, seems to think that it's just not safe to leave home without it, that it's just a natural everyday thing to carry a gun for personal safety. Such an attitude - or need - would have been unthinkable to her before she left Canada, as it continues to be for the rest of the family! I find it hard to imagine what it must be like to feel so threatened by violence that you'd "need" to a gun to go to the corner store - and nor would I ever want to! --well, that's your sister. One person. How is she representative of any population group? Plenty of people live in Florida who DON'T carry handguns on their person every day...gee, maybe she found it a normal thing to do because of all the gun ownership in Canada??? How about some facts to back up all this Yank-bashing, eh? |
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21 Apr 03 - 09:08 PM (#937452) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: McGrath of Harlow "...the rocket's red glare; the bombs bursting in air..." Bit unfair to take that as an indication of a national American tendency towards violence. Those are British rockets and bombs, being used against Americans. Pedantic point: the United Kingdom in not a federation - otherwise there would be a separate English Parliament and government, which there isn't. True enough, if Scotland voted for independence they'd get it without any hassles (probably) - things have moved on a bit since Ireland voted for independence after the Great War. On the other hand, I think it likely that, if Texas wanted to leave the Union, it would have the same kind of problems it had the last time it wanted to do that. It seems to me that, if America is more publicly violent in some ways, that could be a reflection of a kind of populism which is related to democracy. The death penalty is a case in point. Most civilised countries look askance at America's love affair with it, but if they put it to the vote in England it'd probably get voted for by a majority, and that'd apply in a lot of places. (Not everywhere - when there was a referendum on whether to have the death penalty outlawed in the Irish Constitution, there was a clear vote in favour of doing precisely that.) The popularity of violent films, and so forth, indicates that the rest of us are pretty obsessed with that kind of thing. But having the violence take place in America, or in other fantasy countries such as China, perhaps helps keep it a fantasy separate from reality. I've never heard that domestic violence is any worse in America than in other countries. I think that would be the key indicator. |
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21 Apr 03 - 09:09 PM (#937453) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: *daylia* Not scared, heric? Ha! I'm duckin too, harvey ... After that blast from Dubya - thanks LH - that was hilarious! :) - I'm getting out the old DUCT-TAPE'n stuff- for the computer screen!! |
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21 Apr 03 - 10:25 PM (#937491) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: *daylia* Peg, Click here for relevant stats re gun ownership, homicide, suicide etc. A quick google search turns up a plethora of sources for the same information. And here's some international statistics re domestic violence Kevin. The brief article claims that "According to the former Surgeon General Koop, 3-4 million women in the US are beaten by their partners each year. Studies on prevalence suggest that from 1/5 to 1/3 of all women will be physically assaulted by a partner or ex-partner during their lifetime. Battering is the single greatest cause of injury among women in the US, accounting for more emergency room visits than auto accidents, muggings, and rapes combined... 683,000 women are raped each year in the US according to the National Women's Study. This translates to 1 every 3 minutes, 78 per hour, 1,871 per day." In comparison, in South Africa a woman is raped every 1.5 minutes. UK and Canadian figures are not mentioned in the article. daylia |
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21 Apr 03 - 10:55 PM (#937504) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: Amos Geeze, daylia, I'm not arguing with your staistics, but they sure don't match up with my experience. I have been friends with probably hundreds of women in my life, and I can count the number who have been raped on the fingers of one hand, I believe. Do you have any idea how many men and women get through their days in this country with out any rape? I would suggest that it is possible these crimes should be measured against economic and educational levels around the world, and the general bulge of the bell curve would be hung on the astonishing datum that violence -- rape, brawling, battery and what have you -- are predominantly the resort of the under-educated, the dispossessed, and the oppressed, by a large majority. Slicing the statistics by nationality is a self-fulfilling sort of approach -- it assumes that the nations define the distribution. Maybe the socialist structures of Canada and the Scandinavian countries do make ordinary life less oppressive, such as by providing national health care, and maybe we do have something to learn. But this out of hand condemnation is not, to my mind, very accurate or contributive to improvement, if I may say so. A |
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21 Apr 03 - 11:37 PM (#937521) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: Cluin While I believe that the U.S. may be portrayed as quite violent in the (American-for-the-most-part) media, it is not my experience that Americans are truly so. Quite the opposite, actually. |
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21 Apr 03 - 11:49 PM (#937529) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: *daylia* I obviously didn't invent the statistics. Amos - they're not "mine". If you do a search you'll find the very same figures from a wide variety of national and international sources. If you don't want to look at the facts I've presented here, then don't - I certainly understand why. Ira M Leonard, the author of the article "Violence is the American Way" has been a professor of history at Southern Connecticut State University for over 30 years - I'm sure she's neither a dummy nor a disgruntled non-American! And her views are almost exactly the same as those of the Canadian historians and sociologists whose works I've studied, which is why I found the article intriguing. And I'm sure she's not unique in the American scholarly community - she quotes two-time Pulitzer Prize-winning historian Richard Hofstadter in the article as saying: "What is impressive to one who begins to learn about American violence is its extraordinary frequency, its sheer commonplaceness in our history, its persistence into very recent and contemporary times, and its rather abrupt contrast with our pretensions to singular national virtue." Perhaps the real problem is, as Ira Leonard says "with the American population's refusal directly to confront any very ugly reality – which came first I do not know. This is what historians refer to as " mutual causation." I'm certainly seeing a bit of that right here, right now. daylia |
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21 Apr 03 - 11:52 PM (#937534) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: DougR Oh daylia, you are so wrong! Or at least the article is! We are a nation of lovers, not fighters! DougR |
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21 Apr 03 - 11:54 PM (#937535) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: Little Hawk As far as outward violence goes, I don't find Americans to be much inclined toward it, but it depends a bit on which neighborhood you're in (as indicated by Inobu's post). Beats me how anyone can stand living in some of those downtown cores like in New York or L.A. or Washington...I guess they're used to it. Regarding that woman in South Africa who gets raped every 1.5 minutes...that is just terrible! She should be given round-the-clock protection starting right now! (joke, okay?) Amos - Actually, I think a surprising number of women have been raped or assaulted at some point in their childhood or youth or later than that. You just don't hear about it. A fair number of boys get abused too, usually by relatives (or clergy or someone else with a close connection). You don't tend to hear about that either. I recently discovered that two longtime male friends had such experiences as children, and I never would have suspected it. The main thing that I find odd about the USA in regards to this issue is the behaviour of its government...and of its entertainment media. I might mention, however, that the Japanese, who have a very orderly society, are also saturated with unbelievably violent and sadistic pornography which is readily available and apparently very popular (with the Japanese male). It's weird, and it indicates some very big skeletons in the closet for Japan. It makes North America look positively healthy in comparison. - LH |
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22 Apr 03 - 12:01 AM (#937540) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: Cluin Hell, LH, I can't understand why anyone wants to live in Toronto. I did it for a short while and couldn't wait to get the hell out. Nothing to do with violence... I was just sick of pavement, money-greed, and being looked at strangely for saying "Hi" to anyone. By the way, and by way of contrast, the vast majority of Americans, I believe, would say "Hi" backatcha. |
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22 Apr 03 - 12:10 AM (#937544) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: *daylia* A nation of lovers, Doug? Sheesh, why oh WHY did I listen to my darn university profs and all their malarcky? I've probably missed out on such a good thing for so looooong now ... ;) daylia |
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22 Apr 03 - 12:14 AM (#937546) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: Forum Lurker Amos-Most figures I've heard are that one woman in three is raped at some point in their life. Many of them never report it, so I'm not at all be surprised that your friends didn't tell you-they might not even admit it to themselves. As far as socio-economic distribution goes, I think you'll find (though this is just a hunch) that domestic violence is much less dependent on class than any other kind of crime. Little Hawk-I'm more disturbed by the extremely prevalent Japanese Lolita complex than any other of their sexual fetishes. S&M is alright between two consenting adults, but pedophilia is another matter entirely. |
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22 Apr 03 - 01:11 AM (#937568) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: GUEST,pdc Originally posted by Peg: "Plenty of people live in Florida who DON'T carry handguns on their person every day...gee, maybe she found it a normal thing to do because of all the gun ownership in Canada???" When friends of mine went on a 1-year sabbatical to the southern US two years ago, they couldn't believe the signs in store windows that said "please leave handguns outside," or "please check your handguns at the counter." Gun ownership in Canada must be distinguished from gun ownership in the US, by type. 2/3 of Canada is wilderness -- Canadians hunt with rifles. Canada has extremely rigid rules about handguns -- and there are no legally-owned semi-automatic machine guns or assault weapons that are privately owned: they are illegal. What are those weapons for, anyway -- hunting deer? What would you hunt with those besides people? Posted by McGrath of Harlow: "Bit unfair to take that as an indication of a national American tendency towards violence. Those are British rockets and bombs, being used against Americans." You are absolutely correct -- I should have made my reference clearer. I was not referring to whose rockets and bombs they were, but to the fact that some of the words to the US national anthem refer to them. I find it odd that an "anthem" which is a hymn of praise, in this case to a country, should make reference to war. |
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22 Apr 03 - 01:45 AM (#937590) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: Art Thieme Oh, yes, refresh, by all means, refresh !!! Now we can all be as nauseated by the self-serving polemics in this thread as I am. Art Thieme |
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22 Apr 03 - 01:52 AM (#937592) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: Ebbie daylia, I believe that those statistics do not reflect only forcible rape. Statutory rape is included, and of course those incidents swell the figures. A minor girl, whether 14 or 17 depending on which US state she is in, who has sex with an older male is the victim of rape, because the law considers her incapable of informed consent. I guess I'm way behind the times- I thought statistics say that one woman of every eight has been raped. |
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22 Apr 03 - 01:53 AM (#937594) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: Cluin Oh no, guys... Japanese porno is just too too cute and cartoony, isnt it? And I thought "Scooby Doo" and "Bullwinkle" were a bit twisted... |
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22 Apr 03 - 02:14 AM (#937597) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: Peg daylia; you STILL have not answered my questions. I don't want to click on your links, I want you to explain your logic. What does the US' military budget have to do with the violent behavior of its citizens? What does suicide have to do with violence? What point are you trying to make comparing the USA with "third world countries"? How are you in any position to declare what the "majority" of Americans *think* with regard to the principles stated by the "Project for a New American Century"? I also think your use of statistics is rather skewed. Domestic abuse in Russia is far higher than it is in the USA; clearly linked to the extremely high rates of alcoholism...why aren't you complaining about how violent the Russians are? I seriously question that figure on emergency room visits...as far as domestic abuse victims making up greater numbers in emergency rooms than rapes, muggings and auto adccidents combined; where does this figure come from? What is the National Women's Study? Never heard of it. How do they calculate their figures on rape victims? I am not about to claim that America does not have a problem with violence (so please hold your snide "mutual causation" comments at bay, if you don't mind) but I would really prefer it if you'd actually offer some evidence that made some sense and showed some awareness of the statistics on violence in OTHER parts of the world. What are the rape statistics for sub-Saharan Africa, for instance? What are the spousal abuse figures in Scandinavia? How many teenagers commit suicide in Japan each year? and is that figure connected to "violence"? |
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22 Apr 03 - 05:15 AM (#937636) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: McGrath of Harlow It's pretty common to have references to war in a national anthem. "Soldiers are we" - Ireland; ""Aux armes, citoyens" - France; "Oh Lord our God arise, scatter her enemies" - Britain. And so on around the world - probably a minority of countries, but a sizeable minority. |
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22 Apr 03 - 07:22 AM (#937673) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: *daylia* Peg if you don't want to read the links, and you're willing to pay me for my time to explain the information to you, I'll be happy to do that once I'm finished my term with my music students. They come first, of course. Please PM me for my salary/hour and mailing address to send the cheque - unless of course you just want to argue. I triple my hourly fees to compensate for my aggravation in that case, and you'll have to wait until the more immediate needs of my other clients are met - perhaps by the fall. ;) daylia |
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22 Apr 03 - 09:59 AM (#937730) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: Amos I think I'll do a statistical collection on passive aggression in Canadian populations. Seriously, daylia, I think the answer to your original question is "No". I have lived among Americans for four or five decades without any violence, although I have seen instances of aggression, petty theft, robbery. But statistically, the numbers you are choosing to make your case with, as far as I am concerned, are suspect. And I don't think you're addressing the questions being raised here. But Hofstadter, whose overly-complex analsyes I have always respected mainly because I couldn't really understand them, makes a good point, except for one major flaw. The good point is that there is some disparity between our liberal pride in our national virtues, embracing liberty and free speech and all that, and the unwillingness to confront ugly situations which don't match that vision. The big flaw is that you cannot anthropomorphize whole societies and hope to make accurate or useful statements. Finally, I would offer that Hofstadter, Ira Leonard, and anyone else who cares to swim around in these overarching sociological generalities would find more gainful use of their time in proposing what they think should be done, rather than just waving their arms with large numbers -- or better still, doing it. Otherwise their just creating huge pictures of badness with no redeeming value in them. A |
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22 Apr 03 - 10:40 AM (#937749) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: *daylia* UK homicide statistics US Bureau of Justice Statistics on Violent Crime StatsCan statistics on violent crime According to the links above, there were on average just over 21,000 homicides per year in the US in the 1990's. This is about 0.0075% dead out of a population of approx. 280 million. In Canada in 1999, there were 482 murders, in a population of 27 million - about 0.0021%. And in the UK, there were 792 homicides in a population of approx. 58 million - about 0.0014%. If my math is accurate, this shows that incidence of homicide in the US is just less than 4X the Canadian figures, and just over 5X the UK. Those are, again, quite "statistically significant" differences! I suspect that the differences have MUCH more to do with the accessibility of firearms in each country, as well as cultural expectations/acceptance of violence - and NOT anyone's individual personality traits! And as I've stated before, my intention is to draw attention to these "national" differences in the hopes that as knowledge and understanding of them increase, changes will be made that will make the planet a safer place for all of us. I think that's plenty important enough to risk getting "roasted" here on Mudcat! daylia |
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22 Apr 03 - 10:47 AM (#937752) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: MMario YOu appear to have just contridicted your own thesis! |
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22 Apr 03 - 10:57 AM (#937763) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: Wolfgang i>I think you'll find (though this is just a hunch) that domestic violence is much less dependent on class than any other kind of crime. (Forum Lurker) Than any other kind of crime? Of course, the incidence of violence is related to the educational level as has been found in more than one study. However, educational level (class) of the offender is not a very good predictor of violence Neither is nationality as the theme of this thread seems to indicate. I'll tell you the two best statistical predictors of violence, by far: (1) Sex of the offender (2) Age of the offender Wolfgang |
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22 Apr 03 - 11:19 AM (#937775) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: McGrath of Harlow Things like street layout and patterns of street use can make an enormous difference to how safe places feel. And then you get feedback from that - places that feel dangerous get more dangerous, because of the way people use them, and with places that feel safe it's the other way round. Generalisations about a "place" as big as the USA are never going to have much force. Much more intriguing to work out why it is that within countries and regions some places throw up more violence than others, especially comparing places which superficially seem pretty similar. |
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22 Apr 03 - 11:32 AM (#937787) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: Peg daylia; if you have time to type in all this drivel, you surely have time to answer my VERY simple questions. How about just the first one: what does violence have to do with suicide? I want to know what YOU think about this. You offered the statistics, now explain why you think it is relevant. For someone whose time is so "valuable" you spend an AWFUL lot of time making spurious arguments on this forum; so your snotty little "response" about your hourly salary etc. makes me wonder. You just don't want to answer questions put to you and actually think that complaining about your lack of precious time serves as an excuse....then you go ahead and waste more of that time NOT answering anyone's questions. You remind me of Doug only more verbose. As I said, the information in those links will not answer my questions because what I want to know about is YOUR justification behind using these statistics for the purpose you have suggested. I don't think the statistics back up the points you're trying to make...although I notice you are now backpedaling to say "I just want the world to be a safer place!" You started this thread to criticize the USA and it is to late for you to back off that now. Answers, please. |
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22 Apr 03 - 01:03 PM (#937831) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: *daylia* Sorry Peg - not going to indulge what appears to be simply a desire to argue without fair recompense. If you had any interest in the subject at all, you'd read the articles before making either comments or attacks. Ira's article is both important and intriguing, and I provided relevant statistics to back up her claims. The information I provided is MUCH more worthy of your attention than I'll ever be! If anyone can find any credible information that proves either her ideas or the statistics to be false, PLEASE post it here. That's why I started the thread! I've found the best "evidence" to counteract her claims on this thread so far have been the Catters' accounts of violence or it's absence thereof in their lives. Again, thanks to everyone for your responses. daylia |
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22 Apr 03 - 01:20 PM (#937842) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: Little Hawk Well, the incidence of violence in this Canadian household has gone way down since Arnot (the miniature dachshund) passed away... :-) Damn! Now I've gone and gotten Art Thieme mad by refreshing this hateful thread again.... Oh, the humanity! - LH |
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22 Apr 03 - 01:41 PM (#937862) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: Big Mick daylia.........answer the questions. You have made assertions and refuse to justify them. You stated that our propensity for violence is "well known". And you claim to speak for someone other than yourself when you used the phrase "those of us". I feel that you speak for no one other than yourself, and that your opinion of your own views is highest only in your own mind. You use "on the square" types of statements to give yourself deniability. And the recompense line is pure crap. Peg called you on it and you just look weak in using it. Answer the questions. They are fair given your assertions...........or just disappear from this thread. Just my two cents worth. Mick |
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22 Apr 03 - 01:51 PM (#937874) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: GUEST, heric Daylia: At 10:40 a.m. you provided a nice overview of the basic thesis of Franklin Zimring and Gordon Hawkins referenced in Ira's article, at least as to the homicide rates, and parroting their argument that handgun ownership increases the fatality rate of violent criminal activity. However, you then go on and tie that legitimate argument in a support for the more mushy-headed proposition that Ira (with no originality, btw) that Americans are culturally prone to and accepting of violence. Yet, in supporting the mushy headed Ira this way, you fail to mention Zimring and Hawkins' own observation that American crime rates, are similar to and in some regards lower than their UK and Canadian brethren. They point out that the lethal crime rate is much higher (attributable to guns laws, they say), but I can't tell whether the violent crime rate (lethal AND non-lethal) is so much higher, which is your real point. If it WAS so much higher, they would be detracting from their own conclusion about guns.) Do you have the stats to back up your real point? http://www.oup-usa.org/isbn/0195131053.html Ira should know that Bush, as a surname, is capitalized, and that a spell-check program won't catch this. |
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22 Apr 03 - 01:55 PM (#937877) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: GUEST, heric >>However, you then go on and tie that legitimate argument in a support for the more mushy-headed proposition that Ira (with no originality, btw) that Americans are culturally prone to and accepting of violence.<< Without typos, that would read: "However, you then go on and tie that legitimate argument in as support for the more mushy-headed proposition that Ira (with no originality, btw) advances: that Americans are culturally prone to and accepting of violence. |
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22 Apr 03 - 03:08 PM (#937935) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: *daylia* Well I agree that being prone to and accepting of violence is "mushy-headed", to say the least. And you're right, the idea that Americans display an unusually high level of this "mushy-headedness" is not original to Ira. It's "common knowledge" not only to American scholars like herself but those outside the US that I've studied with. I first encountered these views and statistics many years ago, at high school and university. That's just how "common" the "knowledge" is in my neck of the woods! I'd sure like to see scholarly studies/statistics that indicate the opposite is true - that Americans are predisposed historically and culturally towards peace and compromise rather than to war and violence! Anyway, one thing's clear - it's best to let sleeping Yanks lie! They might shoot ya if they feel too 'rudely awakened'! Like, just ask Spaw eh? ;) daylia |
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22 Apr 03 - 03:22 PM (#937940) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: GUEST, heric But daylia -- that's so glib. Zimring and Hawkins say that the US has a similar crime rate to Canada, at least as to non-violent crime, and impliedly as to violent crime. Ira relies on Zimrig and Hawkins. So do you. Well, okay, back to sleep, then. |
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22 Apr 03 - 03:32 PM (#937946) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: artbrooks Both Zimring and Hawkins are associated with the Law School of the University of California at Berkeley, which has a certain reputation. Far be it from me to suggest the authors have carefully selected their statistics and analyzed them so as to make their point, however. |
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22 Apr 03 - 03:36 PM (#937948) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: *daylia* *snore*... huh? OH! geez, and those international homicide statistics looked so DIFFERENT to me! Obviously must be doctored! And those military budgets, and those childhood homicide/suicide/firearm related death rates - heck I coulda SWORN they looked just a TAD different!! Must be just vicious mushyheaded lies, all of them! How COULD I be so silly as to believe them? Oops, I'm hallucinating! Sheesh where DID my fingers go? Is that the rocket's red glare I see approaching from the south? Heck no, it's the BOMBS BURSTING IN AIR!!! running for cover .... building blind out of maple leaves ..... huddlin down good ... *whew*! That was close!! |
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22 Apr 03 - 03:37 PM (#937949) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: Big Mick And why only Americans? Perhaps you could let us know other cultures that, in your broad studies, you have found that are also violent? Or is it only the USA that you are interested in proving has a tendency towards violence? Is it our government that you are referring to, or the average citizen? I am very interested in knowing why it is so important to you to point out what is wrong with only the USA. Perhaps you would be so kind as to enlighten me as to why it is necessary for a person not from the US to use every opportunity to point out what is wrong with us. I have found that folks who are constantly trying to point out the faults in others really doesn't want folks to look at them too closely. Mick |
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22 Apr 03 - 03:39 PM (#937952) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: MMario Again - what is your percieved relationship to high suicide with culteral violence? To me they seem very different concepts. |
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22 Apr 03 - 03:40 PM (#937954) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: Big Mick And your last posting still fails to answer the very simple questions asked by Peg. Oh, I forgot..........you don't have time to answer questions of substance..................Are your students going without instructions in the four posts since?.......... I repeat......answer the questions....... Mick |
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22 Apr 03 - 03:43 PM (#937956) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: Ebbie daylia, I am going to jump on you too. I suspect you've isolated yourself on the end of a limb and don't know how to get down. Your 'point' seems illy made. On the other hand I agree with you when you say: I suspect that the differences have MUCH more to do with the accessibility of firearms in each country, as well as cultural expectations/acceptance of violence - and NOT anyone's individual personality traits! I agree that guns that can be caught up and used in the heat of the moment contribute heavily, imo, to violent incidents in the US. We're workin' on it. At this point in history we're dealing with the ludicrous notion that the government can peer over our shoulders to see what we're reading, or advising in our schools, or doing in the 'privacy' of our own homes and what causes we're involved in- and yet we cannot get consensus on the guidelines that should be used firmly and routinely when someone wants to buy a handgun. And as I've stated before, my intention is to draw attention to these "national" differences in the hopes that as knowledge and understanding of them increase, changes will be made that will make the planet a safer place for all of us. I think that's plenty important enough to risk getting "roasted" here on Mudcat! There's where I think your point gets blunted. |
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22 Apr 03 - 03:46 PM (#937958) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: *daylia* Big Mick, the USA is the ONLY country who has ever invaded mine, or who has ever threatened it. The USA presently threatens the peace and safety of the whole planet. So it's surely not too hard to figure out why people are interested in why this is so, and hope to do something to help change the tide. Believe me, if it weren't for the ever-present, very real and constantly growing threat to my personal safety and well-being presented by the US, I wouldn't give the nuts off a dried beaver about Americans or their culture! |
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22 Apr 03 - 03:47 PM (#937961) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: NicoleC Yes, Daylia, and everyone KNOWS that all Chinese people are good at math, all French are cowards, all Brits are snobbish and have bad teeth and all Africans are illiterate and living in huts. Anytime a phrase starts with "everyone knows" or "it's common knowledge" you can be sure that it isn't true. When I was in Europe a couple of years ago I met quite a few Germans who were under the impression that we still had a "wild west" with cowboys and indians shooting it out like a Hollywood movie. Does that mean it's true, simply because the archetype of the cowboy is accepted as reality? So I'm confused -- do you wish to discuss the stereotype of the so-called violent American, or do you wish to discuss causes violence in American society? Because, quite frankly, you can't seem to distinguish between the two, and they are two very different subjects. Both have a grain of truth, but when added together you come up with rubbish, as is so frequently true of trying to perceive a society through your prejudice and preconceptions. And as far as I can tell from your comments, your hypothesis is that anyone who DOESN'T agree that Americans are bloodthirsty and violent is either delusional or ignorant. If I posted a thread about how it was common knowledge to those of us who have had the advantage of "living and studying" outside of Canada that all Canadians were jealous of the US because Canada was a pretty worthless country, would it be true simply because that's the sterotype? |
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22 Apr 03 - 03:47 PM (#937962) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: GUEST, heric >>That's just how "common" the "knowledge" is in my neck of the woods!<< Conclusion: Folk knowledge has its charm, but you need to travel more widely, daylia. >>what is your percieved relationship to high suicide with culteral violence? To me they seem very different concepts,<< Nobody offs themselves like those non-violent Norwegians and Swedes. >>carefully selected their statisitcs. . . << ;) |
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22 Apr 03 - 03:56 PM (#937967) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: Amos The USA presently threatens the peace and safety of the whole planet. Daylia, I think that's a pretty extreme statement. I distrust George Bush as much as anyone, I assure you, but I seriously doubt even he qualifies for such a wide swath of generalization. A |
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22 Apr 03 - 04:02 PM (#937970) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: Little Hawk High suicide rates can result from a variety of reasons... Hopelessness due to poverty, hopelessness due to unemployement, hopelessness due to family or school problems, and so on...it's a very large subject to discuss. I'll quote from the Canadian Firearms Safety Course Student Handbook: "In many cases suicide is an act of sudden impulse. It is often brought on by some temporary setback or moment of depression. These occurrences may seem trivial to the outside observer. They are not trivial to the person experiencing them. Even a failed exam, an argument with a girlfriend or boyfriend, or an accident with the family car can bring it on." In 1995 there were 911 firearms-related suicide deaths in Canada (how about that number, eh?). They comprised 22.9% of all suicide deaths in Canada for that year. The rate has gone steadily down since 1980, when firearms accounted for 33.3% of such deaths, and it is dropping at an increasing rate. Now...homicide in Canada. In 1995 there were 489 homicides. Compare that to the suicide rate. Eight times as many suicides as homicides! Of the 489 homicides in Canada, 145 involved guns. That's a gun-related homicide rate of 29.7%. Many homicides are also acts of sudden impulse, and are more easily accomplished with a gun than with a knife, a club or a fist, needless to say. So...to wrap it up...of all the firearms-related deaths charted by Statistics Canada between 1980 and 1995... 81% were suicide 14% were homicide 5% were accidents Kind of tells a different story from our sensationalistic press and media, doesn't it? It appears to me that the biggest problem leading to violent death in both our societies is not violence (against others)...but despair, hopelessness, depression, and such related factors, leading to violence against oneself...which is, admittedly, often a form of indirect violence against others. - LH |
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22 Apr 03 - 04:10 PM (#937975) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: Big Mick daylia, your last post proved to me what I suspected. To somehow suggest that we are on the verge of invading our northern neighbor on the basis of an "invasion" that occurred over 125 years ago, is so ludicrous as to barely be worth responding too. I wonder if you would be so kind as to explain to me how the numerous times we have intervened in generous ways around the world would affect your logic? I wonder how the American blood that has been shed alongside Canadian, English, Scottish, Chinese, French, and all the others would mitigate your great powers of logic and intellect? The point is that folks with the type of smug, self serving thought processes that you are displaying here are part of the problem. When you waste bandwidth with gratuitous assertions about a country as diverse as ours, you do nothing to advance understanding and peace. Many of us here fit some small part of your stereotype, but in the main are nothing close to being similar to the whole thing. Want to cause real change and debate? Then do some homework, and create real discussion that has as its purpose enlightened discussion and understanding. What you have done is created a false predicate that supports your own prejudices and tried to debate it. The folks here are way to sharp for that. Mick |
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22 Apr 03 - 04:14 PM (#937980) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: McGrath of Harlow I'm sure America is nothing like as violent as it portrays itself through films and TV. But that is how it is constantly presented, so it's not really surprising if people pick up the impression that it must be an appallingly violent country. As Nicole observed when she visited Europe. And since it is Americans making the films and the programmes, the impression gets across that this must be how people in America like to see their country presented. What would be worrying is if people in other countries were to treat this version of America, and of violent sub-cultures America, as role models, to be copied. And also if it has that kind of effect in America itself, so you get a feedback process. It's very easy for this kind of discussion to turn into a squabble, but it's not the best use of this facility we have here. |
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22 Apr 03 - 04:20 PM (#937986) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: stevetheORC I dont think that on the whole the average American is more violent than anyone else, the problem lies in that there are so many of you, thats why your crime figures are higher. I dont know how easy it is to get a fierarm in the US but I do know that even with our extreemly strict gun controlls over here (UK) it is not that hard to find a gun if you really want to. You can manipulate figures to say more or less what you want them to it's all a matter of presentation. As for US films and TV been violent have you ever seen the Martial arts films out of HK? or the Japaneese Anime, it is what society asks for the industry delivers, it's got to be bigger and better each time. As a very non American I personaly dont feel threatend by Americans for the most part I find that they are rather nice folks, with the obvious exceptions, NYR fans and all those who dont think that a certain Mr Rose should be forgiven:-) going into hiding yet again LoL De orc |
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22 Apr 03 - 04:29 PM (#937993) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: McGrath of Harlow True enough about Martial Arts and Hong Kong and Japan. But I think people are more likely to see those as fantasy. |
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22 Apr 03 - 04:31 PM (#937996) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: Alba I agree McGrath Oh well so much for "I am not posting this here to point at finger at anyone"....surely that is exactly what this article does! |
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22 Apr 03 - 04:47 PM (#938005) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: artbrooks When, by the way, did the US invade Canada? There were invasions in 1775, 1812 and 1813, when that region was British North America and the US was at war with Britain. Of course, the final (1813) invasion only happened after the British army and local militia had attacked south and taken Detroit. There was also the Sein Finn "invasion" in, I think, 1866, but that was quickly put down by US troops. Oh yeah, there was also the "pig war" on San Juan Island in 1859...does it count if nobody gets hurt except the pig? Did "Canada," as a nation, exist before the British North America Act of 1867. Or was it the British acceptance of Canada as a soverign state in 1931? Or later still? Sorry, but I do not believe that the United States has ever invaded the nation of Canada. |
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22 Apr 03 - 05:06 PM (#938010) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: Ebbie Believe me, if it weren't for the ever-present, very real and constantly growing threat to my personal safety and well-being presented by the US, I wouldn't give the nuts off a dried beaver about Americans or their culture! Bull pucky. I don't believe for a minute, daylia, that you feel threatened by us, or at least not any more threatened by our governmental administration than we feel threatened by our governmental administration. You been watching too much TV, kiddo. |
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22 Apr 03 - 06:28 PM (#938054) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: Greg F. A NATION LOST By James Carroll Boston Globe, 4/22/2003 EVEN BEFORE conclusions can be drawn about the war in Iraq (Saddam? Weapons of mass destruction? Iraqi stability? Cost to civilians? Syria?) a home front consensus is jelling around a radical revision of America's meaning in the world. Centered on coercive unilateralism, the new doctrine assumes that the United States not only stands apart from other countries but above them. The primitive tribalism of boys at football games -- ''We're number one!'' -- has been transformed into an axiom of strategy.... Whole article HERE |
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22 Apr 03 - 06:40 PM (#938064) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: Amos Believe me, if it weren't for the ever-present, very real and constantly growing threat to my personal safety and well-being presented by the US, I wouldn't give the nuts off a dried beaver about Americans or their culture! I suggest this is a fictitious--or at least seriously mis-identified--fear. So perhaps we should agree on a Dried Beaver Reciprocity Treaty here, and go calmly aboot our business, eh? A |
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22 Apr 03 - 07:10 PM (#938085) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: DougR Perhaps Mr. Carrol should move to Canada Greg! daylia: I knew it! I knew you were getting these hairbrained ideas from some place! Academia, the birthplace of most bad ideas! :>) And then Peg has to drag ME into it. We are a peaceful country, daylia, do not fear our invading you (unless you got some WMDs we don't know about). DougR |
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22 Apr 03 - 07:17 PM (#938092) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: Metchosin of course Canada has WMDs DougR, you store yours on our military bases, but then, you know about those ones, don't you. |
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22 Apr 03 - 08:27 PM (#938137) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: *daylia* Peg dragged you in, Doug? Well what are you standing around for - Shoot her, for pete's sake! ;) Greg, thanks for the article. And to those of you who choose to ignore not only the historical and statistical evidence that violence is indeed "the American Way" but also the tragic events unfolding worldwide right now as your "glorious leaders" enforce their American principles and American interests on the rest of the world, I ask you to remember these words (which I saw recently attributed to Mark Twain?!?): "Denial is not a river in Egypt" Just be careful - you might drown yourselves - and the rest of the world - in it. And to those of you who've tried the argumentum ad hominem tactic - sorry, it's not working! But thanks for showing just how accurate the "mutual causation" hypothesis is. Ebbie, Amos - Did you know how ridiculous - never mind arrogant - it is to tell someone else how they do or don't feel? Yes, the Project for a New American Century scares and threatens me - just as it angers and terrifies the rest of the world. And like I said, if it weren't for that, I really wouldn't give even ONE STICKY HAIR off the nuts of that dried beaver about "American culture" or the "American Way". Still waiting for credible statistical/historical/scholarly evidence that American history and culture predisposes it's people towards peaceful, patient diplomacy and compromise, not war and violence, as the acceptable way of dealing with conflict - interpersonally and internationally. Then again, maybe I should know that already - after all, it must be "common knowledge" south of the border, judging by what I've read here today! ;) daylia |
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22 Apr 03 - 08:46 PM (#938146) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: Ebbie poff |
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22 Apr 03 - 09:08 PM (#938163) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: NicoleC Culture cannot be measured; there is no way to prove or disprove a culture is this or that, because it is intrinsically tied up in perception and personal experience. There is no "America" in 25 words or less, and concepts like "national character" are garbage, particularly when dealing with a group as vast and diverse as the US. The only rebuttal to such a broad and pointless attack is to weaken the hypothesis by showing the same can apply to many others. I *could* sit down and do a historical analysis of several countries compared to the US. I *could* discuss each of the points you've brought up. I *could*, but I won't, because despite your claims that you want a reasoned discussion, you really seem to want a platform to display your fear of and repugnance for Americans. Your numerous snide comments are irrelevant, rude, and certainly do not help your case any because they make you appear far too prejudiced to argue rationally. If you really haven't the time to back up your hypothesis, as you claim, you probably shouldn't attempt to instigate such a deep discussion. Based on what you have posted so far, you haven't begun to support your hypothesis. "So-and-so says" doesn't cut it. Statistics (which are notoriously unreliable) don't cut it. What you are missing is your OWN thoughtful, reasoned and objective arguments -- yet you want everyone else to live up to a standard that you don't meet. |
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22 Apr 03 - 09:16 PM (#938164) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: Don Firth ('Twould appear that this is descending into a bit of verbal violence.) McGrath observes: "And since it is Americans making the films and the programmes, the impression gets across that this must be how people in America like to see their country presented." This is less a matter of how people in America like to see their country presented than it is a matter of what Hollywood producers and writers assume American audiences want to see. And, unfortunately, this feedback mechanism does seem to come into play, not so much with adults, but with adolescents, particularly younger adolescents. The latter seem to be the ones who fill the theaters where violent movies are playing (from my own observation and the observation of people I've talked with, often ten-, eleven-, and twelve-year-olds, despite a given movie's PG-13 rating). And although the argument goes on, it's difficult not to assume that this doesn't have something to do with recent violence in high schools. However, not every American, by any means, is fond of this kind of fare. The movie industry would go bust if they depended on people like my wife and me (the last movie we saw in a theater was Jurassic Park, and although it wasn't human on human violence, it was more that sufficient violence for us!). And as far as television is concerned, apart from watching a couple of sit-comes (usually Brit-coms) we generally watch Masterpiece Theatre, which offers good drama by anybody's standards, and an occasional movie of similar quality, often videotapes from the public library. The nearest thing to crime dramas we watch is Mystery on our local PBS affiliate (currently showing a series of "Miss Marple" mysteries—not exactly "shoot 'em ups"). And I usually watch JAG, which, despite its military setting, is primarily a courtroom drama. It's a literate show with well-rounded characters. About the most violent things we watch on television are reruns of Star Trek in its various permutations. According to published ratings (in which they sample a couple thousand households and extrapolate from there), Barbara and I may be in a minority, but we are certainly not unique. In fact, we're actually pretty representative of a fairly substantial minority. Most of the people we know either don't watch television at all, or they watch pretty much the kind of shows we watch. We do not find violence—especially gratuitous violence—entertaining. Some years ago, Cleveland Amory wrote a column for TV Guide, in which he said that the problem of violence on television was that it was not violent enough. Magnum gets punched in the mouth, at which point he falls down a flight of stairs and slams into a wall. He gets up, wipes a drop of blood from the corner of his mouth, dashes up the stairs and pounds the villain into insensibility (Cheers! By then, we know the bad guy had it coming!). All very heroic. But considering the apparent force of the punch that Magnum received followed by his spectacular tumble down the stairs, if this were the real world, the next scene would have shown him in a hospital bed, a few limbs in casts and in traction, his lips blue and swollen, in need of extensive reconstructive dental work, and with his jaw wired shut. Amory was suggesting that if the actual, realistic results of that kind of violence were shown, then all that rock 'em sock 'em "heroism" might not be quite so glamorous! But when it comes to raw violence in entertainment, it would be hard to outdo Japanese comic books (manga) or the tsunami of martial arts movies from Hong Kong within recent decades. Compared to the depictions of violence that the populace of some other countries relish as entertainment, even the most violent American movies seem relatively mild. Is violence the American way? I'm not quite sure what is meant by "the American way." If one were to try to lay out "the American way" as some sort of portrait of the average American (whoever that might be), to be fair, you would have to dilute your images of violence with a number of other images: such as those who contribute food, and volunteer to cook and serve at the noon lunches for the homeless given by five nearby churches; or the Lutheran Alliance for Affordable Housing and similar volunteer organizations, that seek out permanent or semi-permanent places for these same homeless; or those who get together on Saturday mornings to provide a gathering place for a group of developmentally delayed adults who would have no other opportunity for social interaction; or the people who make up an organization called "Alternatives to Violence," who conduct workshops in both the local prisons and in the community in an effort to demonstrate that there are other ways to solve problems than by violence. And let's not forget the millions of people nationwide who gather in groups of hundreds or thousands or tens of thousands every few days to protest the Bush Administration's bellicose foreign policy, and continue to do so week after week, whether the media chooses to cover them or not, because they feel strongly that they must do something to protest against the violence and indicate that they do not condone the actions of the government. Statistics don't tell the whole story. Is violence that American way? To say "yes" on the basis of a page of statistics would be unfair to an awful lot of Americans. And it would certainly not give you a clear picture of what the vast majority of Americans are really like. Don Firth |
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22 Apr 03 - 11:34 PM (#938222) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: MAG Oh, I can say that in Chicago I was mugged 3 times that I remember, burgled an equal numberof times, had my car stolen and trashed from the parking lot of the Conservatory -- and that was BEFORE I lived in Miami for 3 hellacious years -- where I suffered more violent crime than in my entire 17 years in Chicago. When I first moved to Chicago I worked in a deli on 53rd St., swing shift -- in the fall, people refused to believe that I walked the 3 blocks home at midnight alone. (D-uh. dumb hick.) They said, to a person, I wasn't attacked for the $30 or so in my pocket because people assumed I would be "packing." I think it was Stokely Carmichael who said "Violence is as American as apple pie." |
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23 Apr 03 - 12:00 AM (#938238) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: Amos Well, daylia, I never said you weren't feeling what you are feeling. It is your sovereign right to feel exactly what you feel. I just think you've mis-located the target for that feeling. But okay -- violence is certainly part of the American way just as it is part of the "way" of any x-million strangers thrown into association. Let me point out, thought that the United States also spends billions more than any other nation in the world in helping other countries. Does this mean that charity IS THE American way? Historically, we have more patents per capita over the centuries than any other nation. So, it is obvious that Invention is the American way. Unless you count the amount we spend buying judges and votes in Washington. Tehn it is clear that Bribery is the American way. At one point we probably had more Christian missions out among the unconverted than any other nation, proving, for a fact, that Evangelism is the American Way. We also, I dare say, consume more cartoons than any other nation, proving that Skimpy Unreality is the American way. We have more outdoor cookouts than any other nation on earth, too. Clearly the American Way is to Barbecue!! Now, don't start denying all these statistical facts -- it will only prove that you are in de nile up to your knickers. But under all these impressive statistics is a broader statistic, which proves irrefutably that the American Way is smart aleckery and weisenheimering. That much is absolutely indisputable. Regards, A |
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23 Apr 03 - 12:25 AM (#938248) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: Little Hawk Ebbie - Actually, and I am saying this in all seriousness, a great many ordinary Canadians fear a possible American intervention at some time, even a military intervention in Canada at some point in the unfolding century which is ahead of us.... The USA IS regarded by a great many Canadians as the only country in the World which is a genuine threat to Canada . I can recall at least ten situations in the past month or two when someone I know has quietly said something to that effect...and not necessarily someone I even hear discussing politics normally. This does not mean Canadians fear Americans. We don't. We fear the American administration! Note the difference. We generally like Americans. Why do we fear American intervention? Because we have great natural resources up here, including the World's largest remaining reserves of fresh water, which will soon prove far more valuable than oil (if it isn't already). And...we have a rather small population and military, which means we can't really defend ourselves, except by guerilla warfare. That's the fact of the matter. There is great nervousness up here regarding the present and future intentions of the United States Government. This has nothing to do with liking or disliking ordinary Americans, it has to do with your government and your mega corporations. We look south across that border with great concern for the future. We wonder how long our own way of life, which is a bit more socialist than yours (in terms of health care and a couple of other things), will survive. - LH |
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23 Apr 03 - 01:43 AM (#938265) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: Bev and Jerry We fear the American administration, too. Bev and Jerry |
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23 Apr 03 - 01:44 AM (#938266) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: NicoleC LH - Is the US the only military threat to Canada? Almost certainly. Who else is going to make it? Even if they were capable of the kind of assault performed without ANY land base of operations (unlikely; even the US desperately wanted a land base to attack a little, relatively defenseless country like Iraq), said attacker would also have to contend with your next door neighbor and ally being capable of getting a large army there virtually overnight. Logistically speaking, yes, the US is really Canada's only potential threat. While being your only threat, we are also your best protection. Is the US a threat to Canada? I very seriously doubt it, at least in the military sense. Most Americans consider Canada practically part of the US, and while it's easy to mount a publicity campaign against somewhere very distant with, you know, foreigners! There would have to be literally decades of a constant propaganda campaign about the "danger from the north," sustained over multiple government administrations. Nor would the other western allies stand for it, if not for altruistic reasons, simply because if the US would attack Canada, it would be obvious they'd attack any of the others, too. Even if the US were seized by a warlike dictator and the Constitution suspended, Canada would be WAY down the list of targets when there are so many others the US could attack and sieze control of with relative impunity from it's western allies and from the wrath of it's citizens. But maybe the US is a threat in the economic sense. An economic and political "annexation" of Canada is possible and probably desirable to some. Economic control over the resources of Canada would be MUCH cheaper and better for business and political gain than a war where we might suffer our own civilian casualties -- something almost everywhere else understands but is totally unthinkable to the US. |
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23 Apr 03 - 01:56 AM (#938267) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: Peg hmmm....many hours gone by. Daylia has expended a great deal of energy and no doubt hours of her oh-so-valuable time continuing to offer dubious statistics, but NOT answering anyone's direct questions, despite being urged to do so by at least a half dozen well-reasoned people who have politely requested she put up, or shut up. But she refuses to answer. No attempt to address these very fair questions. Just more smug, condescending put-downs. More over-the-top generalizations about "Americans." Why is that? She also recommends that Doug shoot me. Gee, that's nice. I agree that she has put herself at the end of that tree limb and is fearful of dropping off. |
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23 Apr 03 - 02:25 AM (#938279) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: GUEST,pdc Canada is a resource-rich country with a very small population. As long as George W. Bush is president of the US, Canadians will quite naturally fear, if not actual invasion, at least some form of coercion when the US has wasted its own resources and needs more to sustain a certain level of lifestyle. I honestly wish that a US administration would return to the days of American isolationism, and focus the huge amounts of money that are available in that wealthy country on domestic issues. The infrastructure, education system, health care, poverty, racism, waste, the environment -- these are not problems unique to the US. But the US has so much money! So much could be accomplished for Americans themselves, if an administration would focus within. |
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23 Apr 03 - 03:33 AM (#938299) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: Rustic Rebel I started a thread about a month ago questioning the violence of people. I can conclude from that discussion that violence is everywhere and it's born from fear. I will not deny that there is too much violence in the US, but I cannot agree that it is only the US. Daylia, you, yourself posted on a thread about Canada, all the wars Canada has been involved in, including wars where Canada made it there before any US involvement, so to base violence on war statistics I think we can also include oh... about every country in the world. It looked like that was where Dr. Ira Leonard was going with his(I think Ira is a man, by the way!) article. I'm not here to dog you though Daylia, I can see where your coming from and your concerns about violence. I just had a talk with a young man who brought a knife to school because he was being harrassed by some kids. He thought that was the thing to do. Use a weapon to keep these guys away from him. When I think about my response to him I actually shame myself. First I asked why he couldn't stay away from them and/or try to work it out. He said there was no way he could be friends with these guys. Then I asked why he couldn't just use his fists if he had to, instead of a weapon. So I helped to support a violence in using that mentality. Thinking of it as a milder form of violence, I still promoted violence and thinking about it now, I see I did the wrong thing and am ashamed of myself. So really, Dalia, thanks. By starting this thread, I have evaluated a bit of my own thoughts and reactions to the problem of violence and find it inside of me as well. Now the thing to do is figure out an approach that moves us toward love. Peace. Rustic |
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23 Apr 03 - 03:47 AM (#938302) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: Metchosin Let me point out, thought that the United States also spends billions more than any other nation in the world in helping other countries. Does this mean that charity IS THE American way? Not necessarily Amos, if you are speaking of US Government Aid to other poorer countries in the world, as far as industrialized nations go, the US, per capita based on GNP, is actually at the bottom of the heap. But as far as donations to NGOs are concerned, I wouldn't be surprized if the Americans, as individuals, are not the most charitable. |
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23 Apr 03 - 07:55 AM (#938367) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: InOBU Back in the seventies, when my wife and I lived in west Kerry, near Dingle, there was a little crime in Dublin, but out in the west, if you left the house, for a week, you left the door open for your neighbors. Back then there was one TV channel, no movie theater for about 30 miles, then along came American culture through the TV and movies. Where there was NO drug problem, there now is drugs and crime. I find it rather funny that this rapacious and violent people need to tell the world that they are warm and fuzzy. They committ their incipid culture (disney) as often as they committ their violent culture on the world because THESE violent concourers have an adorable need to be loved after they rape you. I am in negotiations to do an album with a group of musicians from Bangladesh, about the loss of the voices of our grandparents. Cheers Larry |
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23 Apr 03 - 08:33 AM (#938389) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: McGrath of Harlow The culture of violence is the enemy, wherever it crops up. Since the USA is so dominent in the world, in "culture" as well as economics, the violent aspects of that society are up in the forefront of people's attention, and the possibility of people aspiring to adopt American ways adopting those ways is especially frightening. But I think it's a cul-de-sac to get into fingerpointing battles about whether the violence is peculiarly American, or whether - as I'd be inclined to see it - the real problem is the impact of certain types of economic organisation and technology, and maybe it's hit America first to some extent. Whichever way people jump as regards that particular issue, it is pretty clear that, as Amos points out, that this is not the only "American Way". Much better to try to imagine what can be done about the culture of violence we are up against. It's a bit like arguing whether AIDS started in Africa or America or wherever. Epidemiologically very interesting, but not the main issue. |
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23 Apr 03 - 08:54 AM (#938400) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: InOBU True McGrath, but if we take 70 percent of the worlds recourses, using our culture as a crow bar, maybe we can take, say 55 percent of the blame? Cheers Larry |
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23 Apr 03 - 09:07 AM (#938415) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: HuwG Ebbie, Little Hawk, NicoleC and anyone else who has speculated on the threat posed to Canada by the US: Some seven or eight years ago, the TV channel "Channel 4" in the UK, proposed in a documentary on the EEC, a situation in which a war could erupt between the US and the European Community, with Canada as the battlefield, in or about 2030. The events leading up to this were: The world is short of oil; The US has elected a ranting populist (I think they called him "Diaz") as President; The EEC leaders are all corrupt oligarchs; Vast amounts of oil are miraculously discovered on the continental shelf off Labrador and Quebec; Quebec cannot agree with Ottawa over the division of the spoils (among other things) and breaks away from Canada; The US twists Canada's arm to be allowed to extract the oil, and threatens Quebec with force if it too does not allow the US to grab all it wants; The EEC twists Quebec's arm to be allowed to extract the oil, and threatens the US with force if it violates Quebec's sovereignty; The US issues an ultimatum to get of Quebec, to the EEC; At the last minute, the British EEC Commissioner resigns over some scandal involving graft and corruption, leaving the Commission inquorate, so it cannot reply to the US ultimatum; Zap, pow, wallop! How ridiculous or far-fetched any of the above premises are or might be, is entirely up to you. However, I think the documentary suffered somewhat from its own thread drift; it was only supposed to discuss the delegation of Health and Safety regulation from Parliament in Whitehall to the EEC Commission in Brussels as a result of Britain signing the Maastricht treaty. |
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23 Apr 03 - 12:49 PM (#938604) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: GUEST, heric >>I find it rather funny that this rapacious and violent people need to tell the world that they are warm and fuzzy. They committ their incipid culture (disney) as often as they committ their violent culture on the world because THESE violent concourers have an adorable need to be loved after they rape you.<< My gracious, Larry! Your religion does not impart a kindly view of the human condition and its potential! I think I haver gained an understanding of how a peace-loving spiritualist as yourself may have gotten into a bit of fisticuff engagements now and then! |
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23 Apr 03 - 01:15 PM (#938617) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: Little Hawk Peg, you are letting your ego lead you astray. I know daylia, and she is not the unfair-minded monster that you seem to be intent on labelling her as for launching this thread. She's a perfectly reasonable and idealistic person of good intentions. And she's smart. I also find it odd that her occasional attempts to inject a little leavening humour (as in her suggestion to Doug to "shoot you"...obviously a joke) are being misinterpreted on an entirely mean-minded and reactionary level, just because you have already decided that daylia is WRONG, WRONG, WRONG!!! My advice is, lighten up, agree to disagree, and give it a rest. The World will not be improved by a huge battle of egos on this forum that proves (to some) that daylia is "wrong". - LH |
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23 Apr 03 - 01:22 PM (#938623) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: McGrath of Harlow Maybe it's time someone brought out the irony font... |
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23 Apr 03 - 01:24 PM (#938624) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: GUEST,heric LH: I don't see where anyone has attempted to prove that daylia is wrong. The arguments all seem to have been that she cannot be proven right. |
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23 Apr 03 - 01:29 PM (#938628) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: *daylia* I just lost an entire post it took over an hour and a half to write, in which I tried to thoughtfully respond to all of you. I've no time to re-write the thing now, but I will say these things ... Thank you so much Don - and Amos - for your comments. Yes it's good to remember all the altruism and compassion Americans have and continue to display. You are "stereotyped" for your big hearts as well as for the less admirable qualities! As to answering "questions" - I make it a point to ignore those who try to bully or boss others around, discredit another's claims through personal attack, or distract people from the topic at hand by focussing on the messenger, not the message. I took up a lot of my - yes, very valuable! - time and energy searching for and posting the most reliable statistics available on the net - from the US Bureau of Justice, the UK Census, Statistics Canada. Even quoted the most relevant figures, showing the math I did in the process, to make it quick and easy for anyone truly interested to access and understand the information. When people have neither the appreciation or the interest to even bother reading through the information I provide or the article I started this thread to discuss, and "order" me to do their reading and thinking for them - well, if that's not worthy of inattention, what is? And when they choose to ignore, overlook, or pooh-poooh the most credible and relevant figures available, well that just lends even more credibility to the tenets of the article "Violence is the American Way". Peg - I think everyone else reading this thread saw Spaw's first post, and the ;) I added to my joke with Doug. Too bad you're feeling so "picked on". And speaking of questions, I wonder why no-one has answered the questions I posted earlier on -- "Yet such facts as these still remain - that the US spends five times as much as any other nation on it's military ($399 billion last year, as compared with the $80 billion of the second highest nation, and Canada's lowly $7.9 billion according to a list pdc posted on another recent thread). Although it seems obvious, just why is this if war is not the expected and historically accepted "American Way" of dealing with international conflict? - That the US rates for childhood homicide, suicide and firearm-related death are five times higher than any other industrialized nation (click here for the American study and scroll down to the graph at the bottom of the page for easy reference). That's a significant difference! Why is this so, if American culture does not somehow "breed" the ideology/expectation/acceptance of violence as a solution to problems?" Could it be that in order to answer them a big ugly truth must be acknowleged? I suspect this is another example of Ira's "mutual causation". LH thanks for your comments re the rising tide of apprehension and resentment of the current US gov't in Canada right now. I've been dealing with it quite often in the children I teach - just yesterday a 9yr old needed to interrupt his lesson to tell me how much he despises George Bush and his "stupid, stupid war." I've been hearing anti-American grumbles from the parents at my performance classes when the kids announce they are playing American folk-songs, like "Home On The Range". Never heard anything like that before in my over two decades of teaching music! I tried to counter it after the kids finished playing, by thanking the Americans out loud for all the wonderful music - and other things! - they HAVE given the world. THe parents got the message, and so did the kids I think. Rustic, Metchosin, InOBU, MAG, HuwG - thank you ALL for your stories and comments. I hope I haven't left anyone out, but this just took me another hour to write - and I'm late for work! I had some really nice quotes from Abraham Lincoln, Mark Twain, Martin Luther King Jr., Henry David Thoreau, and Starhawk (a few of my favorite Americans!) which I lost on my other post too :( oh well. I intend to go over all of your comments again tonight --- thanks so much again. Peace - daylia |
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23 Apr 03 - 02:04 PM (#938652) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: McGrath of Harlow Losing long detailed posts like that is a real drag. Much the best thing to do is write them in Word or equivalent - I find if I do that am much less likely to accidentally lose it, and it's easy to save as I go along, so it doesn't matter if I do press the wrong button. And it's also a lot easier to leave it on one side and post it later, and sometimes that's a way of avoiding misunderstandings, because they can leap out at me when I read something through again after a break. As they say, one should never insult anyone by accident. |
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23 Apr 03 - 02:52 PM (#938685) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: GUEST, heric >>>>>As to answering "questions" - I make it a point to ignore those who try to bully or boss others around, discredit another's claims through personal attack, or distract people from the topic at hand by focussing on the messenger, not the message. . . . I hope I haven't left anyone out, . . <<<<< Well, you left out me, artbrooks, Art Theime, Rick Fielding, Alba and Cluin, among others, I'm sure. This is understandable, of course, timewise, but I'm wondering, did you ignore any on this list for personal attack, bullying or shooting the messenger?? >>>When people have neither the appreciation or the interest to even bother reading through the information I provide or the article I started this thread to discuss, and "order" me to do their reading and thinking for them - well, if that's not worthy of inattention, what is? And when they choose to ignore, overlook, or pooh-poooh the most credible and relevant figures available, well that just lends even more credibility to the tenets of the article "Violence is the American Way".<<< Did anyone on the above list fail to read your cites or order you to do their thinking for them? >> That the US rates for childhood homicide, suicide and firearm-related death are five times higher than any other industrialized nation (click here for the American study and scroll down to the graph at the bottom of the page for easy reference). That's a significant difference! Why is this so, if American culture does not somehow "breed" the ideology/expectation/acceptance of violence as a solution to problems?" Could it be that in order to answer them a big ugly truth must be acknowleged? I suspect this is another example of Ira's "mutual causation".<<<< I said it before and you can ignore me again. According to Ira's supporting reference, the answer is gun laws, not ideological violence. >> and when they choose to ignore, overlook, or pooh-poooh the most credible and relevant figures available, well that just lends even more credibility to the tenets of the article "Violence is the American Way".<<< Yes, this is a repeat, but listen to yourself. You started a thread with the half baked notion that you could statistically prove that American citizens have bloodlust in their hearts and souls, and wish violence upon each other and upon outsiders. >>As they say, one should never insult anyone by accident. << - MGOH The recent arguments by LH and daylia that this just a battle of egos and should be left to slide in silent acquiescence because it reflects thoughts lurking in hearts of many Canadians (and imparted to their children) is without merit. I have been rude and wrong on many an occassion, myself. I own up to it, though. |
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23 Apr 03 - 03:16 PM (#938699) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: InOBU My gracious, Larry! Your religion does not impart a kindly view of the human condition and its potential! I think I haver gained an understanding of how a peace-loving spiritualist as yourself may have gotten into a bit of fisticuff engagements now and then! THEN rather than now! I have grown up a lot... CHeers Larry |
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23 Apr 03 - 03:32 PM (#938710) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: GUEST,pdc Instances of the U.S. dropping bombs since World War II - Compiled by William Blum: China 1945-46 Korea 1950-53 China 1950-53 Guatemala 1954 Indonesia 1958 Cuba 1959-60 Guatemala 1960 Congo 1964 Peru 1965 Laos 1964-73 Vietnam 1961-73 Cambodia 1969-70 Guatemala 1967-69 Grenada 1983 Lebanon 1984 Libya 1986 El Salvador 1980s Nicaragua 1980s Panama 1989 Iraq 1991-99 Sudan 1998 Afghanistan 1998 Yugoslavia 1999 Iraq 2003 None of these bombings have led to a "democratic" government even though this was more often than not the reason given for the aggression. It won't happen in Iraq, either. |
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23 Apr 03 - 03:42 PM (#938717) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: *daylia* " I'm wondering, did you ignore any on this list for personal attack, bullying or shooting the messenger??" Yup - you, for one ... ie. "You started a thread with the half baked [note the rude, personal attack] notion that you could statistically prove that American citizens have bloodlust in their hearts and souls, and wish violence upon each other and upon outsiders." Also note that these are your words, not mine. And you're wrong in you're assumption about my reasons for starting this thread, heric. That's the problem with making assumptions about the thoughts and feelings of others. And these are also your words, not mine or Little Hawk's - " The recent arguments by LH and daylia that this just a battle of egos and should be left to slide in silent acquiescence because it reflects thoughts lurking in hearts of many Canadians (and imparted to their children) is without merit." You're also wrong in that assumption, heric. So. "I have been rude and wrong on many an occassion, myself. I own up to it, though." Good for you, heric! Now's you're chance to practice! "According to Ira's supporting reference, the answer is gun laws, not ideological violence." I agree, but add that gun laws are a part of, and not the entire problem. "Ideological violence", (and I use the words at the risk of assuming I know what you mean by them), plays another significant part. Thanks for the hints re using Word, Kevin. Using computers well takes lots of practice too. And you're absolutely right about re-reading posts and catching unintentional insults - thanks for that too! daylia |
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23 Apr 03 - 03:43 PM (#938718) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: Don Firth Attaching a label to an entire nation can give a distorted and inaccurate picture of the populace of that nation, as I've noted above. And it can be a very dangerous thing. This is why I object to the idea of piling up statistics and using them to try to come to the conclusion that "violence is the American way." Or that tap-dancing and playing basketball is the African-American way. Or that eating pasta and singing opera is the Italian way. Or that being compulsively precise, clicking one's heels, and invading Poland is the German way. Or that wearing a serape and sombrero and taking a siesta while leaning against a cactus is the Mexican way. Or that saying "eh?" at the end of every sentence is the Canadian way. Or that . . . you get my point. No matter how justified they may feel (or for that matter, be) in their grievances against the government of the United States, Osama bin Laden, Al Qaeda, and those of this ilk have stated their assumption that since America is a democracy, the American government is truly representative of the American people. ALL of the American people. Each individual. Therefore, each and every American citizen, they maintain, is to blame for the excesses of the American government. Thus, in their own minds, they justify the indiscriminate slaughter of American citizens by acts of mass terrorism. This kind of short-sighted, pigeon-hole thinking simply dismisses as irrelevant the millions of people who campaigned against and voted against and demonstrated (and continue to hold vigils and demonstrations and are actively campaigning for the 2004 elections) against the government and its war-like policies. And further, it doesn't take into consideration the questionable nature of the last election, and the fact that the current president did not actually win the popular vote, but got in by having members of his party cobble the ballot-box (something that should be very carefully scrutinized and guarded against in the forthcoming 2004 election). The same short-sighted, pigeon-hole thinking that might allow one to try to label as "violent" all Americans does not take into consideration the millions of Americans who lead peaceful, productive lives and never commit acts of violence, not ever a swat on the behind of a misbehaving child. Millions of Americans are morally and ethically opposed to violence in any of its forms or under any circumstances. To lump these people together with wife-beaters and the child-abusers and the relatively tiny percentage of those who commit acts of greater violence (even though their ratio to the rest of the population may be higher than in some other countries) is simply inaccurate—and patently unfair. Okay, the way to demonstrate obviously faulty thinking is to apply the logical argument of reductio ad absurdum*: Proposition 1: Germans citizens are to blame for Hitler (after all, they elected him, right? Right!)Such is the illogic—and the danger—of slapping the single label on an entire nation of people. Respectfully submitted for your serious and thoughtful consideration. Don Firth *The Latin phrase reductio ad absurdum means "reduction to the absurd." It is used to refer to the process of demonstrating that an idea is false by first assuming its truth, and then showing how that truth leads to absurd conclusions which cannot possibly be true. The process is also used in ethical philosophy by assuming the moral validity of some principle, and then showing that acceptance of it would lead to very unethical consequences. |
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23 Apr 03 - 04:04 PM (#938731) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: GUEST,pdc To Don Firth: I believe that your thoughtful statement is quite correct -- no "but." It is very difficult to separate "America" or any other country into its components, however two components -- the national America, represented by government, and the cultural America, represented by films, magazines, television and other media etc. both display violence, in one form or another. Therefore, to be fair, people have a problem in distinguishing individual Americans from the national and cultural identities. It's funny -- nearly all our friends in the city where we live are expatriate Americans, and we discuss the current US administration quite a bit, as you can imagine. They are reasoning, intelligent people who present thoughtful perspectives. Yet -- and this is an indication of how my previous paragraph applies -- we will be moving to the US in about six months for a temporary stay, and all I can think of is the violence shown in films, discussed in newspapers and magazines, and displayed by the present government. Logically and rationally, I recognize that our stay in the US will probably be delightful. But on a gut level, I am very apprehensive. Do these comments help you to understand how and why outsiders feel the way this thread indicates about the US? |
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23 Apr 03 - 04:11 PM (#938739) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: *daylia* "Millions of Americans are morally and ethically opposed to violence in any of its forms or under any circumstances. To lump these people together with wife-beaters and the child-abusers and the relatively tiny percentage of those who commit acts of greater violence ... is simply inaccurate—and patently unfair." I agree entirely. "(even though their ratio to the rest of the population may be higher than in some other countries) This is the core of Ira's article, and the reason I started the thread. The importance of knowing why this is so in the world's mightiest superpower becomes more vital every day. I agree that making sweeping generalizations and attaching labels is dangerous, but can the all of the tenets of Ira's argument be safely dismissed on that basis? Believe me, I am giving your posts thoughtful consideration, Don. Thanks so much again for the hints re fallacious reasoning, and for the information re "argumentum ad hominem" you posted on another thread a while back. That has proved most valuable here! daylia |
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23 Apr 03 - 04:54 PM (#938768) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: NicoleC "It is very difficult to separate "America" or any other country into its components, however two components -- the national America, represented by government, and the cultural America, represented by films, magazines, television and other media etc. both display violence, in one form or another. Therefore, to be fair, people have a problem in distinguishing individual Americans from the national and cultural identities." Bingo, pdc. This is the point I was trying to make back at the start. Choosing archetypes of American life and attempting label them as accurate representations of America as a whole bases an assumption of society on a stereotype, without questioning if that stereotype is correct. While statistics may be used to reinforce an arguement, they simply can't hold it up on their own. You have to question who collected the statistics -- was it from police reports, or from the court system? The former might call something a murder, while the court might call it self-defense. Are the result sets being compared being gleaned from the same data set? Are law enforcement authorities equally effectively at finding and classifying crimes? Are the legislative definitions of the crimes being tallied the same in the various locations? Are crimes being reported in multiple places? For example, could a domestic violence crime that results in murder appears in both sets of data in one location, but not in another? How efficient is the gathering of information -- is it at an equal level for all countries being cited? What happens when the data is tallied by religion, ethinicity, gender, economic status, etc.? Does the data still show a meaningful correlation at the national level? Are crimes being accurately reported by victims? Just as rape is notoriously underreported in the US because of latent shame and the habit of blaming the victim, reported levels are still dramatically higher than in many other places like India and the Middle East. And so forth. HuwG -- Thanks for the synposis. I think that that theory falls apart over one cruicial aspect: the US has never been shy about BUYING what they want or need, and cost is never an issue since it's passed on to the consumers. Even if Canada were the last place on Earth with petroleum reserves, the US would be perfectly happy if those resources could be bought on the open market. If any pressure were applied, it would be muscle non-US interests out of the set of potential buyers. Wars are almost always fought over access to resources. Even the quintessential freedom fighters want the freedom to use their resources in they way that they see fit, whether it be primary resources like food or secondary products like money. Historically, this means physical control of the land. Today, in most of the industrialized world (Israel being the most notable exception), physical control of land isn't the issue anymore. When multinational corporations that change their citizenship at whim, and transportation is widely available and cheap, which COUNTRY the resources are actually IN is irrelevant. Instead, wars are fought over economic access to resources. For example, the US doesn't want Iraq at the 51st state -- the US wants economic access to Iraq's resources, namely oil. If Canada declared tomorrow that they would no longer sell petroleum products to the US at any price, it would be viewed as a hostile act. In that case, I suspect Canada would have a lot to fear. As long as Canada's desire to make money by selling resources to the US coincides neatly with the US's desire to buy resources and resell them at a profit... I don't see an issue. It's far smarter to make Canada pay to protect our northern border by simply being there than to attempt to patrol the whole long thing with US military forces. |
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23 Apr 03 - 05:21 PM (#938786) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: McGrath of Harlow If someone says something about you which is critical, and they are saying what they sincerely think is the truth, either it's accurate, or it isn't. If it's accurate, fair enough. If it isn't, it isn't really about you at all. So it might be worth correcting the mistake, and it might be worth trying to find out why the wrong impression got out - but it's never worth getting upset about it. It's the same with a country. |
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23 Apr 03 - 05:36 PM (#938793) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: SINSULL From daylia: "This is the part that threatens me the most..." I thought it it was the fact that US children are taught the Pledge Of Allegiance at the age of five that threatened you the most. You're the one with a sister running around panic-stricken with a gun while you obsess over statistics you have muddled up in your own posts. If you fear Americans, stay away from them...us. We won't mind. And if you don't, I can guarantee that we won't shoot you. Although your sister is fair game if she aims her piece at me. |
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23 Apr 03 - 05:39 PM (#938795) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: GUEST, heric The problem with your observation, MGOH, is that it implies that the people, myself included, who argued against daylia's propositions, express or implied, vague or certain, whatever they may have been (I no longer can tell), are reacting defensively ("getting their hackles up.") It doesn't account for those people who find the assertions and implications offensive and unfair in and of themselves. Enough said. I got caught up in it, true. But I now see the futility of any continuation. If someone says something about [a third party] which is critical, and they are saying what they sincerely think is the truth, either it's accurate, or it isn't. If it's accurate, fair enough. If it isn't, it isn't really about [that third party] at all. So it might be worth correcting the mistake, and it might be worth trying to find out why the wrong impression got out - but it's never worth getting upset about it. If it's demeaning, offensive, and about a large group of people based upon some classification, it's hate speech. (To see my point, Kevin, just re-read everything substituting the word "Palestinian" for "American," and I think you can see whey I might lose my cool, calm calculated demeanor ever so briefly.) Dan |
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23 Apr 03 - 05:55 PM (#938801) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: Don Firth The day's busy-ness calls me elsewhere right now, but I just have a comment or two. To pdc, I would say first that, to all intents and purposes, you will probably be just as safe in the United States as you are where you are right now. I've already discussed the matter of films and other entertainment. But in newspapers and magazines—and on the evening television news—the current principle seems to be "if it bleeds, it leads." If a violent crime tops the news, people pay attention, not out of a pathological fascination with violence, but with a reasonable regard for their own safety; wanting to know what happened so they can avoid the same thing happening to them. Inspired fear rather than a taste for blood. And in any city of any size anywhere in the world, violence occurs almost every day. Finding a lead-off story is easy pickings for the news vultures, creating the impression that things of this sort are far more prevalent and wide-spread than they really are. This same attitude slops over into magazine articles as well (Cover article: "How to Keep From Being Mugged"). There are millions of random—and not so random—acts of kindness that happen every day, but they are so commonplace that they're not newsworthy. In a class I took on broadcast news, and later on while working in a radio news department, I got a pretty good picture of what most radio and television stations think of as "newsworthy." (You want to draw the viewers/listeners in so they'll hear your commercials between news items rather than some other station's.) "Statistically skewed" hardly describes it. Rather than becoming the victim of intentional violence, you'd probably have a greater chance of being run down by some dodo in an SUV with a cell-phone up his ear. Now, there's a real danger! And, daylia, I too wonder why the statistics for violence are higher in the U. S. than in many other countries. I'm working on a theory, but I haven't had a chance to work it out yet. It has to do with a couple of factors, which do, indeed, seem to be cultural: an inordinate emphasis on competitiveness that sometimes starts as early as pre-school and continues (obviously) into a person's work-life, where it can get downright cut-throat (speaking of violence); and despite the supposed guarantees of equality, the obvious examples one hears of and encounters every day that "some people are more equal than others." One common example is the fellow who thought he had a secure job for life and then he gets laid off because some CEO he has never even heard of in a company that owns the company he worked for is in a competitive struggle with another company. Anger and frustration caused by things over which one has no control can lead to violence—sometimes misdirected violence, such as domestic abuse, for example. Blazes! I've got to get busy! It seems I started to work on my theory right here. Sometimes I don't know what I think until I say it! I'll be back. Don Firth |
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23 Apr 03 - 06:37 PM (#938824) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: McGrath of Harlow It seems to me there is an in-your-face style of hyper self-assertion around these days. I don't mean particularly American, I don't know enough about America to say that, and in any case I don't think it makes sense going in for generalisations about a continent-wide conglomeration of communities which vary a great deal. I wouldn't even make those kind of generalisations about the neighbourhood in which I live. (Which is a long way from America.) But I run into it constantly - it shows itself in the way people drive, in the way they deal with any kind of delay, when shopping for example. And in the way they respond to any kind of perceived challenge. And it comes up here on the Mudcat often enough. I've noticed that these days every time people in the media or in politics refer to the concept of turning the other cheek, it seems to be accompanied by an implied or a direct sneer. And yet the same speakers writers and politicians often would very likely claim some kind of adherence to "Christian values" - and you can't have a more core Christian value than turning the other cheek, at least as something to aspire to. |
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23 Apr 03 - 06:55 PM (#938843) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: Little Hawk Hey, well, no one likes being singled out, do they? No wonder this thread has garnered so much passionate response. As for "Christian values", I agree that turning the other cheek is supposed to be a Christian value...according the Christ...but it depends which Christians you talk to as to whether it is. In most cases...hardly! You will find similar inconsistencies in Musilim values, depending on whether you talk to Sunnis, Shiites or Wahabbis, and depending of course on the individuals you talk to, as well. Then there's also the fact that people frequently alter their usual declared moral stand on things when subjected to certain unexpected crises or pressures. They will then be accused of being hypocrites...which is arguable...but what they really are is something more prosaic than that: they are just human, that's all. - LH |
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23 Apr 03 - 07:34 PM (#938867) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: McGrath of Harlow Fair enough, people crack under pressure of circumstances and don't live up to their principles, but that's not hypocrisy. Hypocrisy is when you pretend you are holding to your principles, when in fact you are going directly against them. |
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23 Apr 03 - 08:20 PM (#938891) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: GUEST,pdc Hey, NicoleC: I believe, based on your questions, that you are a sociologist! (I'm married to one.) You said: "If Canada declared tomorrow that they would no longer sell petroleum products to the US at any price, it would be viewed as a hostile act. In that case, I suspect Canada would have a lot to fear. As long as Canada's desire to make money by selling resources to the US coincides neatly with the US's desire to buy resources and resell them at a profit... I don't see an issue." Correct. But what if there was an international shortage of oil? |
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23 Apr 03 - 08:32 PM (#938897) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: Amos A burning question, indeed! A |
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23 Apr 03 - 09:56 PM (#938939) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: NicoleC The price would go up! The US already buys the lions share... what would change? There IS a shortage of oil looming, but most folks are blithley ignoring it. The logistical issues of invading Canada and seizing the territory are HUGE. D-Day would look like a high school project. If there were an international shortage of oil, Canada would be running low, too, not only making it a less savory target, but it would make the large expeditures of petroleum required for a military action of that scale pointless for the potential return. I'm not saying it's not possible some (other) wacky crackpot would get in office and think it was fun to lob a few missiles at Canada. Hey, Canada has missiles -- some crackpot there could launch one at us, too. But invasion? Successful military occupation of the vast area of Canadian petroleum reserves? Do you know how big an army that would take? It's not like we can grab the stuff and bring it home with us. Uh uh. To most Americans, I think, the idea of attacking Canada is like attacking... Kansas. Nobody is to too sure what up there, but it's big and it can't really be that exciting or they'd know about it already :) I'm not a sociologist, I just play one on TV. |
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23 Apr 03 - 10:09 PM (#938945) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: *daylia* "I thought it it was the fact that US children are taught the Pledge Of Allegiance at the age of five that threatened you the most." SINSULL, I was not even aware of that fact until now! You've got me confused with someone else, perhaps? " You're the one with a sister running around panic-stricken with a gun while you obsess over statistics you have muddled up in your own posts." Panic stricken with a gun? I said that my sister, who has lived in Fort Lauderdale Florida (near Miami) for a couple decades now, has "carried a handgun in her purse for a couple years now, seems to think that it's just not safe to leave home without it, that it's just a natural everyday thing to carry a gun for personal safety. Such an attitude - or need - would have been unthinkable to her before she left Canada, as it continues to be for the rest of the family! I find it hard to imagine what it must be like to feel so threatened by violence that you'd "need" to a gun to go to the corner store - and nor would I ever want to!" The part about "not leaving home without it" is not a "fact" - it's actually a phrase I use to tease her with because she works for American Express - shoulda put in a :) I guess? Sorry bout that! Carrying a gun on one's person for safety is apparently common practice, in her neck of the woods anyway, and she's certainly not "panic-stricken" about it. It's a "natural behavior" where she lives. Not into "running around" either. I bolded the reason I told the story at all - to point out the changes in attitudes/behavior towards guns and violence she demonstrates after living in Florida for over twenty years - an real-life example from my own family I consider to be quite relevant to the topic being discussed. "If you fear Americans, stay away from them...us. We won't mind." Even if I did "fear Americans", which I don't -- it's the actions and agenda of your current administration that are cause for concern! -- I couldn't "stay away" from you...any of you...even if I wanted to! Ever looked at a map of North America? Ever noticed how the economies of the US and Canada are linked? Etc, etc. "And if you don't, I can guarantee that we won't shoot you. Now just how are you going to go about doing that altruistic act, or are you making one of those dangerous sweeping generalizations, speaking for "all Americans" instead of just yourself? Or maybe you're joking?? " Although your sister is fair game if she aims her piece at me." Well I've never seen her "aim her piece" at anyone in my life. I'd risk positing that it's not in her nature, so you certainly have nothing to fear either! Hmmm, then again I've never even seen her with "her piece" - handguns are illegal in Canada (except for a very small number of people working in security etc). ;) Oh, and you're wrong in assuming I "obsess about statistics". I've known about the differences in homicide levels etc. between Canada and the US for many years - I remember seeing statistics like those when I ws in high school in the 70s. Searching to find the most recent ones to post here is being considerate, not obsessive. As Nicole pointed out, credible statistics are helpful in backing up a theory at times - and they can "stand on their own" as well. For example -- about half of all babies born are male, statistically. That stands on it's own, obviously. Gettin bleary now ... daylia |
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23 Apr 03 - 10:23 PM (#938949) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: *daylia* " Nobody is to too sure what up there, but it's big and it can't really be that exciting or they'd know about it already :)" Well, Nicole, I've lived and travelled in this very exciting diverse and breathtakingly beautiful, covetously rich and prosperous nation all my life, and it's nothing like Kansas believe me! It's soo exciting around here I don't even need to watch TV! I can't even begin to describe to you how wonderfully exciting it is!!! --- oh well, you've already decided it's a "worthless country" anyway, right? So you're probably too far gone to bother with! ;) Anyway, it's best to let sleeping Yanks lie -- that's my new "insight" gleaned from this "horrid", "hate speech" of a thread! (Told ya I'm gettin bleary ...) daylia |
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23 Apr 03 - 10:31 PM (#938954) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: GUEST,pdc To Sinsull: "I thought it it was the fact that US children are taught the Pledge Of Allegiance at the age of five that threatened you the most." That wasn't Daylia; that was me, and the fact mentioned doesn't threaten me at all. What I said was that learning patriotism by rote can lead to unthinking patriotism, which, like the unexamined life, is not worth much. |
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23 Apr 03 - 10:44 PM (#938960) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: *daylia* SINSULL - forgot to ask why you found the statistics "muddled"? Perhaps you need a tutorial in basic mathematics or reading graphs? A quick google search would probably turn up something appropriate for your levels of ability and understanding - lots of excellent, *free* programs out there. Good luck! |
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23 Apr 03 - 11:12 PM (#938968) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: artbrooks Ho, hum...muddy logic and statistics...time to leave this thread and go do something more worthwhile.... |
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23 Apr 03 - 11:13 PM (#938970) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: Little Hawk LOL! God, sometimes I try to remember how it was that I entertained myself before Mudcat...my window on the World, my endless source of amusement, intrigue, and controversy. It's a good thing I don't have a full-time job to go to. - LH |
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23 Apr 03 - 11:43 PM (#938987) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: mg glad I don't live in Kansas or I might feel insulted....mg |
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23 Apr 03 - 11:53 PM (#938998) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: Peg I am still waiting for those answers to my very simple questions. I asked them respectfully and was insulted. Daylia seems to be able to dish it out but not take it, and tries to makeit seem like anyone who has the temerity to ask her to clarify her position is "out to get her." Her rudeness and condescension continues. LH: you're telling ME this is an ego problem? That's rich. Daylia: why aren't you answering anyone's questions? "You're mean and I don't like you so I have decided to ignore you, nyah nyah" is not an acceptable response, I'm afraid...unless you enjoy looking very foolish. It's very clear by now that you CAN'T answer the questions...because you're terrifed to admit that everyone who has questioned your basic assumptions (which you still have not bothered to clarify) may be right (that your way of presenting those statistics is faulty), and you may be wrong (about your narrow-minded and provincial view of "Americans"). |
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24 Apr 03 - 12:49 AM (#939018) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: *daylia* *yawn* My mystic, aromatic Peg! What nasty little jibes you beg! I'm sure things will get much clearer When you take your face out of the mirror! Do you teach your witches in your coven How war's the "Peggy-style" of lovin? Discovered yet (through aromatherapy) How foul's the bullshit leaking out of thee? Perhaps your brilliant inspiring words Would impress more the bees and birds. But thanks so much for all you've said. I'm laughing all the way to bed!! Sweet dreams - daylia |
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24 Apr 03 - 01:48 AM (#939024) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: GUEST,pdc I think this thread started off on a good topic, but has deteriorated into GWB-type thinking. |
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24 Apr 03 - 01:51 AM (#939025) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: Peg your poem sucks (try taking a lesson or two from Thomas) and you STILL haven't answered my questions...what are you afraid of exactly? I end to notice that when people "laugh" too loudly or uproariously they are actually terrifed of being ridiculed themselves...there's a little dimestore psychology for ya, *daylia* since you think you know so much about me...you don't though. I feel sorry for you now. Maybe there's time yet for you to grow up. |
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24 Apr 03 - 01:52 AM (#939027) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: Peg "end" should actually be "tend" in my last post... |
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24 Apr 03 - 07:27 AM (#939110) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: *daylia* Well yeah, it sucks a bit, but the poem was a five-minute effort after 12am, when I was silly-tired. It was fun though!! Here, try this - my new improved version! My mystic, aromatic Peg! What nasty little jibes you beg! I'm sure things will get much clearer When you take your face out of the mirror! Do you teach your witches in your coven How war's the "Peggy-style" of lovin? Discovered yet (through aromatherapy) How foul's the bullshit Perhaps your Would impress more the bees and birds! But thanks so much for all you've said. I'll laugh my way right back to bed!! There! I like it better, anyway! And yeah, Ttr and I have engaged in a bit of mutual admiration re rhymes before, and I find him not nearly as critical or complaining -- or simply as boringly repetitious -- as I find you, Peg. He's a lot more fun - peaceful and loving, too! So where's your attempt at poetry? Been stifling your creativity with all that bitchiness lately? Too critical to even try? I bet there's a little bit of poetic potential lurking under all those "Peggy" grunts, snorts and squeals! Should really do something about that aroma though ... it gets pretty disgusting when you let out a good belch! Oh, and by the way, "Most of my poems are written in haste And are therefore resultantly lacking in taste. But those who will read them and think they are fine Must surely have taste just as rotten as mine!" :) My poems are free because I enjoy them. But answering your never-ending "questions"? Sorry, my tutorial fees for basic reading, math and analytic skills, which is all it takes to answer any of your "questions" -- (really "attacks", clumsily disguised) -- still apply. $200/hour (American), cash or certified cheque only. First and last 6 hours up front, no refunds returns or exchanges. And please douse your mail GOOD with some kind of an odour-masker of some kind before you send it to me. Otherwise it might attract dogs, and get eaten before I get it home. Now that was fun, but I really did want to stay on topic, and there are people up there far more worthy of response than you are, Peg. Don, pdc, InOBU just to name a few. So I'll go back to ignoring you now. Thanks for the entertainment. daylia |
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24 Apr 03 - 08:00 AM (#939125) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: Big Mick Daylia........just answer the questions posed and you end this. Your poetry and all are attempts to dodge. You write much but fail to answer the simple questions which were based on your initial post. You are coming off very poorly to anyone who is not distracted by your elementary dodge tactics, or excuses about the dog eating your homework. For someone who continually says she is going to work, or doesn't have time, you keep showing back up. That is why this doesn't add up. |
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24 Apr 03 - 09:22 AM (#939156) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: Little Hawk No, Peg. I'm saying you both have an ego problem, as regards this particular thread... But, what the hell, it happens to all of us on occasion. I cast my mind back to the endless political wrangles between me and teribus/Troll (who I began to suspect were the same person, until I heard that teribus tried to end it all by consuming an overly large serving of "freedom fries"). Then there are the endless head-banging sessions between me and Clinton Hammond whenever any unconventional subject comes up (like UFO's, reincarnation, spirituality, crop circles, acupuncture, whatever...). He hates that stuff. I love it. Some people think I AM Clinton Hammond! Now THAT is funny!!! I have learned not to let it get to me much anymore. That's the best advice I can give you and daylia. She wants you to read her links. You want her to answer your questions. She thinks the links do answer your questions. You get hostile. She gets sarcastic. And so on... Sounds like the Israeli-Palestinian thing to me. Endless. Less dangerous though... Maybe we should get Jimmy Carter in here to negotiate a settlement. - LH |
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24 Apr 03 - 09:28 AM (#939157) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: *daylia* Do you need some math help as well then, Big Mick? Or are you just waving your huge heavy stick? Tell you what - you give me a decent, thoughtful and well-documented reply to the two important questions I've posed -- twice!! -- above (you'll have to search for them through the posts above yourself though - not gonna waste my precious time doing your homework for ya!), and I'll answer two questions of equal or lesser value for you, *free* of charge even! How's that for a deal? Oh and here's a little inspiration to get Peg started on a poem (my nose tells me she's still close by!). I love watching people use their own creative potential! And don't worry about offending me (I'm sure that'll be the first concern of kindly, gentle, easy-going and polite people like Peg!) I've built up quite a nice callous around my heart-strings on Mudcat, and I do enjoy poking fun, even at myself! Here goes ... add on if you like (you too, Big Mick, of the huge heavy stick!) Daylia, oh daylia, the poetic faylia Bin tryin so hard to assault and assaylia! How dare you discuss the "American Way" The world's biggest bombs haven't found YOU today! .... (okay, that's your cue - have fun!) |
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24 Apr 03 - 09:31 AM (#939160) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: Big Mick Pretty sound analysis, LH. But as someone who is just reading this with some interest, I would like daylia to answer the questions so we can get to the meat of this thread. I am troubled lately by the gratuitous assertions that are continually made without the benefit of how folks arrived at the positions they espouse. Daylia jumps out with a thread that obviously wasn't thought out before she posted. I have seen her do it before, and when called on it she makes cute little patronizing comments, misdirects the conversation and then skips out. While I agree with your analysis about how this is going, it does not take away from the legitimate questions that were directed at daylia. She made the assertions, she should answer the questions with something more than a couple of cites. I understand where Ira is coming from...............I don't understand where daylia is coming from. Mick |
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24 Apr 03 - 09:37 AM (#939162) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: Big Mick daylia......you continue the same line of crap. Here is a clue for you. I will write slow. I DIDN'T START THE THREAD, YOU DID. I DIDN'T MAKE THE ASSERTIONS, YOU DID. By continuing your idiotic references to your time being so valuable, while you continually check back in (thus demonstrating that you are dodging) shows that you are over your head. I had hoped that you would get to it. You aren't, as I believe you are incapable. Back to the other threads, Mick |
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24 Apr 03 - 09:51 AM (#939167) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: *daylia* Right on about the ego thing, LH. I do try to keep mine in check, and that's usually no problem at all, but as you said these controversial discussions tend to bring out the worst in people when the personal attacks start. And that's what often happens when important topics most people would rather ignore or deny - (understandably of course, because the truths in them are so uncomfortable) - are introduced for discussion. But I disagree with your statement "She wants you to read her links." The truth is, I don't give even a squished louse off that sticky hair on the nuts of that dried beaver whether she reads them or not! I just refuse to waste my time answering any of her so-called "questions" till she does! Because you're right - the answers to her "questions" are either in the links, or totally irrelevant to the topic at hand because they focus on the attacking the messenger, not the message. That's the "argumentum ad hominum" tactic I was referring to before. daylia |
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24 Apr 03 - 10:09 AM (#939175) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: Big Mick they focus on the attacking the messenger, not the message Horse pucky. You started the thread, you made the assertions, you refuse to justify your analysis, and you continue to obfuscate. I don't know you, except by your posts. If you were to apply logic to your statement, given the fact I just mentioned, you would know that it is impossible to attack the messenger. I only have your message, and your follow ups, from which to draw conclusions. And the conclusions are obvious. |
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24 Apr 03 - 10:22 AM (#939186) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: *daylia* Big Mick, this may be news to an Big important person like yourself, but my daily schedule is absolutely NONE of your business! And while "where I'm coming from" may interest you and Peg, it's completely irrelevant to the question of whether or not "Violence is the American Way?". That IS the purpose of this discussion, and the title of the thread, remember? Is that too difficult for you to understand or what? Maybe you could start another thread called "The Mysterious and Annoying Ways of daylia" or something, if you find me so intriguing. But that sounds like such trivial and boring topic - even to me! - it's not likely to get much response. My offer still stands though! Answer my 2 questions satisfactorily -- because that IS the "meat" of this discussion! -- and I'll answer any two of yours, providing they are of equal or lesser value. That's more than fair coming from someone you've verbally abused so many times already on this thread, but I'm a pretty easygoing person most days! daylia |
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24 Apr 03 - 10:24 AM (#939187) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: Peg wow; *daylia*, your childishness, arrogance and self-deception knows no bounds. Mick is right; your diarrhetic input to this thread belies your claims that you're too busy. Poetry? Well, I am actually a published poet. I even won an international award last year from the Cornish Gorseth; first place in the poetry division, in fact. I was even interviewed on BBC radio about it, being the first American to win the division. I will not waste my time composing badly-rhyming doggerel for you. I like Thomas, too. I guess it makes you feel better about your sorry self to act like you're his ally or whatever. I am guessing he is horrified by your behavior in this thread, though (maybe mine, too). Especially the juvenile insults. Pathetic. I remember seeing a lot of this kind of behavior in seventh grade. By the way, those links? I read them a long time ago. I guess that means NOW you'll answer the questions? Since NOW you claim that is the ONLY reason you won't answer them? Still waiting. You have no excuse now for not answering. Unless, as you have already done, you choose to make up something new so you can stick out your toungue and flounce away once more. You have turned your own thread into an embarrassing (for you) joke. You claim you're being attacked; all I did was ask questions, and politely, I might add (as did several others whose questions you have also ignored, demanding they answer yours first huh? YOU started the thread!). You refused. I asked again. And you have continued to refuse, and tried to hide your ignorance, or stubbornness, or whatever it is, in these nasty games of yours in which YOU are the bearer of insults. It doesn't work, you see, for you to accuse me of something when you are far and away the worse offender... I have been here a while and a lot of 'Catters know I like a good debate, am reasonably articulate in my assertions, and have little patience for homophobia and misogyny. I participate in a lot of music threads, too and have done since the beginning. I am sometimes wrong, sometimes inappropriate, sometimes bitchy, and I tend to admit it when called on it, and to apologize when warranted. Like most adults ought to behave in a forum like this one. You, in the relatively short time you've been here, are rapidly proving to be a snotty little girl who is irresponsible in her opinions and comments, and with the air of a tattletale who runs and hides under someone else's skirts when things get overwhelming (as when people point out that you're wrong about something). You don't even defend yourself; you just attack others. The silly name calling is rather sad. Okay, so much for my own self-indulgent input to this thread. I am bored with it now. Good luck, Big Mick. You've given it the old college try, but *daylia* is still in grade school. |
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24 Apr 03 - 10:28 AM (#939189) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: MMario daylia - basically we CANNOT answer your questions without having ours answered first. What relevence do you see to high suicide rates etcdetermining VIOLENCE of the culture? |
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24 Apr 03 - 10:33 AM (#939193) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: Peg By the way, here are my original questions (which I am still waiting to have answered): What does the US' military budget have to do with the violent behavior of its citizens? What does suicide have to do with violence? What point are you trying to make comparing the USA with "third world countries"? How are you in any position to declare what the "majority" of Americans *think* with regard to the principles stated by the "Project for a New American Century"? I also think your use of statistics is rather skewed. Domestic abuse in Russia is far higher than it is in the USA; clearly linked to the extremely high rates of alcoholism...why aren't you complaining about how violent the Russians are? I seriously question that figure on emergency room visits...as far as domestic abuse victims making up greater numbers in emergency rooms than rapes, muggings and auto adccidents combined; where does this figure come from? What is the National Women's Study? Never heard of it. How do they calculate their figures on rape victims? I am not about to claim that America does not have a problem with violence (so please hold your snide "mutual causation" comments at bay, if you don't mind) but I would really prefer it if you'd actually offer some evidence that made some sense and showed some awareness of the statistics on violence in OTHER parts of the world. What are the rape statistics for sub-Saharan Africa, for instance? What are the spousal abuse figures in Scandinavia? How many teenagers commit suicide in Japan each year? and is that figure connected to "violence"? |
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24 Apr 03 - 10:57 AM (#939206) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: *daylia* MMario, with all due respect, by what logic do you propose that the significantly higher national suicide/homicide/violent crime rates in the US, or the huge difference between the size of the US military budget compared with that of the rest of the world, have nothing to do with whether or not there is a cultural predisposition towards war and violence within the US? It's glaringly obvious to see that these figures have EVERYTHING to do with the topic at hand, is it not?!? We're talking about war and violence, and the incidence of it both within the US and as perpetrated on other countries by the US, and WHY the incidences of both are higher there than in the rest of the world (if they are, and that's what the figures indicate very clearly!) and then (hopefully) what the heck any of us can do about it!! And what does any of that have to do with me personally, pray tell? daylia PS Suicide, regardless of the motives behind it, IS a violent act -- the most violent that can be perpetrated against the self. |
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24 Apr 03 - 10:59 AM (#939211) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: MMario no - it is not glaringly obvious - as multiple people have both pointed out to you and questioned you about. Therefore - in order to answer your questions - we were asking WHY you consider those to be factors in a violence rating. |
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24 Apr 03 - 11:02 AM (#939213) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: Peg let's pretend it's NOT "glaringly obvious" to those of us who aren't rocket scientists like you, *daylia*...we'd like for you (once more!) to explain why YOU think this is the case...assuming we've read the statistics and still are scratching our heads trying to figure out how suicide *rates* are equated with violence.... and the beginning of your thread did not mention any statistics about "war"; you conveniently dragged that in later. |
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24 Apr 03 - 11:13 AM (#939218) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: Amos Well, they both stem from the notion that the removal or eradication by force of an offending entity (in both cases obviously a badly misunderstood entity)is an acceptable solution. Both violence against others and violence against self are misplaced, neurotic solutions. This has nothing to do with the question in the thread title. The simplicity is that the question posed is not, in fact, a question that can be answered, at least not in a meaningful way. It's just an exercise in gas-slinging. Everyone knows the American way is hamburgers. A |
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24 Apr 03 - 11:14 AM (#939220) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: MMario Apple pie! APPLE PIE! |
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24 Apr 03 - 11:28 AM (#939229) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: Peg pshaw. everyone knows it's hot dogs...with brown mustard and raw onions...mmmm... |
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24 Apr 03 - 11:28 AM (#939230) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: catspaw49 The failure to teach the responsibility of freedom and democracy as opposed to blind patriotism which has been growing larger and larger since WWII has not led to any significant increase in violence but has brought us to higher and higher levels of aggression in the name of a greater good. Sadly that "good" is also being defined by people who were students of that educational mistake. We are not in a position yet where this trend cannot be turned around, but as time passes and we follow this same course, it becomes unlikely that we will or that we'll even know how. While it's true that from our earliest history we have used violent means, they were historically and truly the only means available. A new system and a new nation is never formed without violence (as opposed to a nation simply gaining independence). For any new nation to grow, it's growing pains are indeed filled with episodes of violence. But up until lately we understood that the violent methods were only needed to effect the changes and growth. We also, as a country, had no desire or need to force anyone else to come to the party. Our military, although large and often paraded in front of the world, worked from a defensive position unless we responded to repeated requests. We tried to stay out of WWI and we were under great pressure to enjoin WWII well before the Japanese gave us "reason" at Pearl Harbor. Perhaps it is because we saw what we could do and perhaps it was because our educational and family structures began to change in the post WWII era that patriotism became synonymous with freedom and democracy. Perhaps because we began giving our rights away to corporations and the government for some built in "protections" that the violence became synonymous with aggresion. We are now seeing our own endgame being played out as we turnover more and more in the name of "security"................I dunno'......... I do know that I am far more concerned about our third world eduational results than I am about any comparison of statistics relating to third world violence. Besides, statistics are such a waste as a method of argument. If 40% of all traffic fatalities involve alchohol, then 60% of all traffic fatalities involve sobriety......the obvious meaning of this is that you have a better chance of avoiding a fatal accident if you're drunk. Spaw |
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24 Apr 03 - 11:28 AM (#939231) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: *daylia* MMario, it IS glaringly obvious, probably even to the average kindergarten child. If you disagree, fine. Go ahead and show how murder/suicide rates and war have nothing to do with cultural attitudes and predispositions toward violence. That should make a real twisted - but perhaps interesting - read! While you're at it, maybe you could try to logically prove how the degree of sunburn people experience within a given country has absolutely nothing to do with the climate of that country, or what that country's people are "taught" about standard, acceptable behavior in the sunlight. Anyway, real life calls so I won't be checking in here again for many hours, maybe not till tomorrow. Suggestion - let the thread die if the topic bothers you so much. I promise I won't refresh it! I've learned quite a bit from Don and a few others, and I've seen Ira's hypotheses demonstrated a number of times here already. That's what I was curious about, but you know what curiousity can do to a Cat! daylia |
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24 Apr 03 - 11:32 AM (#939232) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: MMario I must have flunked sandbox! |
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24 Apr 03 - 11:38 AM (#939238) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: catspaw49 Mario, if you flunked sandbox it's because you were probably playing with the lumpy bits that smelled funny............ Spaw |
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24 Apr 03 - 11:41 AM (#939241) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: Peg You have a responsibility to answer the questions since YOU first offered the statistics which, to many of us, do not add up logically to support the conclusions YOU are making. Pointing the finger and asking others to prove THEIR point makes it "glaringly obvious" you're avoiding the issue. Saying it's "glaringly obvious" YET AGAIN after being told that it's not, well, that's more evasion. Claiming it's "glaringly obvious" to a kindergarten child when you are dealing with educated adults is just plain absurd. IT"S NOT OBVIOUS. THAT'S WHY WE'RE ASKING FOR AN EXPLANATION. |
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24 Apr 03 - 11:42 AM (#939242) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: Amos The answer is "No", goddammit. You ask again and I'm getting my belt... A |
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24 Apr 03 - 12:24 PM (#939263) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: GUEST,pdc May cooler heads prevail . . . There is little point in pursuing this thread -- I just looked it over, and it started out fairly well, but then deteriorated into evidence based on personal experiences (spurious), and emotional opinions. I would like to make one point, however, then I think I will start a new thread on what Gunter Grass has just written about the current US administration. Daylia said: "Suicide, regardless of the motives behind it, IS a violent act -- the most violent that can be perpetrated against the self." Actually, Daylia, I have to disagree with you. My daughter committed suicide 4 years ago last January. Her death was peaceful, caused by an overdose of pills. I think that a suicide can be violent, but that violence in suicide is defined by the the manner in which one takes one's own life. |
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24 Apr 03 - 12:37 PM (#939273) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: Amos PDC: I am very sorry to hear about it. My heartfelt condolences, however late and inadequate they are. A |
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24 Apr 03 - 12:46 PM (#939277) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: McGrath of Harlow It does all seem a bit violent here. Now if it had been "Violence the European Way?", or "the Australian Way?" would it have got quite so angry? No, please don't go trying it. |
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24 Apr 03 - 01:16 PM (#939299) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: GUEST, heric I don't know that this translates across the pond very well, Mr. Harlow. Daylia knows, as you may not, that I am a Canadian citizen. Your continued focus on Americans being unduly sensitive to criticism, alluded to twice on this thread and frequently in others, is valid in its own context, but I think you are mistaken in applying it in this situation. ------------------------------------------------ For those of us who've lived and studied outside Eire, the decidely Irish propensity towards war and violent crime is "common knowledge", verified by not only history and crime statistics but also the content of Irish TV, movies and music. However, when I've mentioned this on Mudcat I've been puzzled at the response from Irish Catters (and GUESTS) - often, they either deny it outright or display large gaps of knowledge concerning their own 'national character', at least as it's seen by other nations. I wondered why this was so ... have English historians and sociologists doctored statistics and taught lies about Ireland then? ... until I found this article yesterday - Violence is the Irish Way. It claims, among other things that "The reality untaught in Irish schools and textbooks is that war – whether on a large or small scale – and domestic violence have been pervasive in Irish life and culture from this country's earliest days over 4000 years ago. Violence, in varying forms, according to the leading historian of the subject, Richard Maxwell Brown, "has accompanied virtually every stage and aspect of its national experience," and is "part of its unacknowledged (underground) value structure." Indeed, "repeated episodes of violence going far back into its Celtic past, have imprinted upon its citizens a propensity to violence." Thus, Ireland demonstrated a national predilection for war and domestic violence long before 1969, but its leaders and intellectuals through most of the last century cultivated the national self-image, a myth, of Ireland as a moral, "peace-loving" nation which the Irish population seems unquestioningly to have embraced." The article contains some very interesting statistics and analysis. Please note - I'm not posting it here to point the finger at anyone, but to hopefully generate some peaceful - and eye-opening - discussion about the claims it makes. Thanks all - (hoping to deepen my understanding of my neighbours). |
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24 Apr 03 - 01:21 PM (#939301) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: Cluin That's it! daylia, you go sit in that chair! Peg and MMario, sit on the couch over there! I'm putting on the TV and I don't want you kids even LOOKing at each other for at least 3 hours. Ihear any more noise in here and I'm sending Amos in with his belt! (non-violently, of course) |
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24 Apr 03 - 01:23 PM (#939302) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: Don Firth This started out as a good topic for discussion and a chance, especially for the Americans who inhabit this place to do a little self-examination and, perhaps, apply a little close scrutiny to the culture in which we live. We do seem to have this image of being a violent people. Why? Is it true? And if there is more violence in America, then why is that? What can we do about it? All important questions. I've been associated, at least in a peripheral way, with the Alternatives to Violence organization (my wife is a facilitator, and I have attended several of the workshops), and I thought this would be a good opportunity to explore different viewpoints, but I guess not. It's too bad that instead of using it as an opportunity to learn something, many folks here seem to take it personally and feel insulted by the topic. And getting hot under the collar, they lost the thread of what it was all about and got personal. It started fairly well, then degenerated into a pissing contest. Too bad. No point in hanging around in this thread, I guess. It's getting a little to . . . violent. Don Firth |
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24 Apr 03 - 01:26 PM (#939306) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: GUEST Babies are teaching us the origins of violence http://www.birthpsychology.com/violence/chamberlain1.html Now that amniocentesis is common, babies in the womb frequently confront a needle entering their private territory. Studies show they react fearfully, defensively, and sometimes aggressively (Ianniruberto and Tajani, 1981). This was brought to my attention again when an acquaintance told us of her experience during amniocentesis. Her husband, the doctor, and the ultrasound technician all saw little Claire bat the side of the needle! The technician said, "Take it out!" When the doctor reinserted the needle, the fetus again attacked it , forcing the doctor to remove the needle. The husband and doctor were in a nervous sweat. The doctor said he had never before seen a baby bat a needle. The parents had an instant lesson in prenatal psychology: they had no idea that a baby this age could sense the intrusion of a needle (and with eyelids fused), have such strong feelings and take such effective action. |
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24 Apr 03 - 01:31 PM (#939313) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: Amos Barky did the same thing -- she reached out for the needle instead of flinching for it -- but while I thought it was indicative of an adventurous spirit I see no reason to interpret it as aggressive. A |
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24 Apr 03 - 01:38 PM (#939320) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: catspaw49 Sorry Don.....I tried, but once these threads start downhill it's like riding an elephant in the same direction. Spaw |
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24 Apr 03 - 01:54 PM (#939337) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: GUEST,pdc Thank you for your thoughts, Amos. It's never too late. |
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24 Apr 03 - 02:41 PM (#939375) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: McGrath of Harlow I imagine the implication of heric's cod quote there was to suggest that something like that would cause an equivalent eruption of fury from people in Ireland or from Irish people in England. I'm inclined to doubt it. And if the allegation was made about the whole wide continent we live in, I'd doubt it very much indeed. As the song has it, "Don't worry, be happy." |
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24 Apr 03 - 02:47 PM (#939379) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: GUEST, heric No, that was not the implication. Okay, McGrath of Harlow, I will be happy. |
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24 Apr 03 - 02:52 PM (#939383) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: MMario uhmmm? am I missing something here? The only "violence" and fury I see in this thread is over the refusal of the originator to explain WHY she feels that the statistics she qoutes prove a violent America. I *still* do not see what the milatary budget or suicide stratistics have to do with a culture of violence, or the incidence of violent crime. Daylia herself said that she felt the increased deaths by gun were probably due to availability rather then an inherent increase of violent tendencies (contridicting her own premise) |
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24 Apr 03 - 03:06 PM (#939398) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: GUEST, heric Yes, MMario. That's where this went wrong: at the start, not later. My take on it is that the subject for intellectual inquiry here was: "Given the cultural imprinting upon American citizens of a propensity to violence, and overcoming your denial of it, may we have a peaceful dialogue to deepen my understanding of you." The boat doesn't float. If you disagree with the premise, you disagree with Daylia's premise, and since it's daylia's premise, you are attacking daylia, and that's ad hominem, and you are violent. Logic right up the wazuu. |
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24 Apr 03 - 03:11 PM (#939402) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: NicoleC I disagree, Kevin. Notice Daylia's reaction to my passing references to Canadian stereotypes -- and I didn't even say I thought they were true. Like any stereotype, after it's been poked at for a while it gets sore. And America gets poked at a lot -- part of the price of being a world power. It's a little harder to so broadly insult at a place like Ireland, where there is a strong sense of shared identity through culture. If you call Irishmen a bunch of brawling drunks, half of them would take it as a compliment -- not because it was true, but because they embrace their cultural similarities and are proud of them. If there's anything resembling an American "identity," it's that we define of ourselves as diverse and different. (Some are happy about it, others bemoan the fact.) We don't even have an official language. Broad generalizations are not only absurd, they strike at the core of what America is. That's the sore spot. It's one thing to try to discuss American in general terms -- we do it all the time here -- it's a another thing to paint a stereotype as truth (as I think most of us felt Daylia did) and then ask someone to disprove it. You might as well as the Chinese to prove they aren't "good at math." It's an absurd premise that gains nothing by merely repeating it loudly and frequently. Some place like Canada has seen many waves of immigrants, too, but I don't think they've ever identified themselves as strongly with it. Too long under British rule during the formative years, perhaps? |
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24 Apr 03 - 03:18 PM (#939407) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: MMario My take on it is that the subject for intellectual inquiry here was: "Given the cultural imprinting upon American citizens of a propensity to violence, and overcoming your denial of it, may we have a peaceful dialogue to deepen my understanding of you." interesting that you took her premise that way - because what she said basicaly boils down to: Americans are violent and these statistics prove it. " the decidely American propensity towards war and violent crime is "common knowledge", verified by not only history and crime statistics but also the content of American TV, movies and music. " isn't an invitation to discuss - it is an accusation which she did not back up. |
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24 Apr 03 - 03:29 PM (#939415) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: GUEST, heric discordio, ergo sum crudesco barbarus |
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24 Apr 03 - 03:31 PM (#939418) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: McGrath of Harlow I'm sure if someone came out with those allegations that the Chinese were no good at maths, the only reaction of most Chinese people would be profound amusement. And maybe, in some cases, quiet pleasure at the proof that these foreigners really were a bit thick. But that suggestion Nicole gives is interesting - the suggestion that Americans might be expected to get hot at the collar at generalisations which imply that Americans are similar, because in fact they pride themselves on their diversity. The implication of that presumably would be that generalisations about how wonderful Americans were would be just as hotly contested. Actually I suspect, if I were American I would object to them, as patronisingly offensive, and I'd object to them whether they were made by foreigners or fellow Americans. |
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24 Apr 03 - 04:58 PM (#939479) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: Cluin Not quite, NicoleC. Most Canadians tend to see the difference in American and Canadian attitudes towards immigrant contribution to their cultures as: Canada is multicultural; The US is melting pot. Very generalized and simplistic, but what hasn't been that way in this thread? |
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24 Apr 03 - 05:07 PM (#939490) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: NicoleC Hmmm. I'll have to take your word for it, Cluin. It seems reasonable enough; Canada is certainly a diverse place. Is it a source of national pride to a Canadian, or just an accepted part of being in Canada? |
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24 Apr 03 - 06:13 PM (#939537) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: InOBU Ok Ok, I give up, I agree with you. We are NOT a violent nation as shown by raining millions of tons of bombs on a nation in a first strike against a nation what never attacked us pulling poor little England along on a lie... a peaceful loving thing to do. Larry |
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24 Apr 03 - 06:34 PM (#939544) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: Amos Oh, BS, Larry -- no-one ever said that Bush and his Klan aren't violent, nor that war is not violent. Define "American". I'm one, and I can tell you that violence is not my way. You're one too, and have seen more than I have, but you wouldn't own it is your way. Spaw? Bobert? Nicole? These are all Americans. You think their way is violence? Or do you think of them as less American because it is not? Let's shake down these imponderable generalities, shall we? A |
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24 Apr 03 - 06:40 PM (#939549) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: heric That's not good enough, Larry. You first must admit that you have imprinted upon you by your birth a propensity to violence, that yours is not a "moral" nation, and then tell us what you are going to do about it. |
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24 Apr 03 - 07:16 PM (#939578) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: Peg Personally, I think a discussion about the propensity towards violence in America as it may or may not be influenced by socioeconomic status, media exposure, genetics, the public school system, or any other set of influences, would be very interesting. This thread, as has been pointed out, was started not with a desire for meaningful (or even controversial) discussion; but with the following caveat : "I provide these statistics; their imprt should be obvious to any pea-brain; to disagree is to insult me and everything I stand for!" What the initial tension that arose was based in (correct me if I am wrong) was in drawing attention to the flawed arguments based on statistics that did not support (or in some cases were not even related to) the initial claim of the poster. When people tried politely and reasonably to question this they were met with evasion, manipuation and finally insults. I am sorry to other would-be participants in this thread for whatever part I had in causing its downfall...I think that is just where it was doomed to end up unfortuanetly, given its origins; but I do not apologize to *daylia*. |
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24 Apr 03 - 07:28 PM (#939585) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: GUEST,pdc Okay, now to make everyone feel better, go to the American Jokes thread, and look at the last link, which I just put in. I think it's hysterical, especially if you're over a certain age. |
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24 Apr 03 - 09:51 PM (#939660) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: Amos OK, Peg -- I'd be interested in your views. I'll start a separate thread just now. Its over here. I mean, over here!. Regards, A |
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25 Apr 03 - 12:38 AM (#939716) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: GUEST Here is another question that needs no written response. For individual reflection only.... Do my words on this thread promote peace or violence? |
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25 Apr 03 - 01:27 AM (#939723) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: harpgirl "violence" is just too generic a word to promote meaningful dialogue here, in my view. I think one must differentiate between aggression, which is usually inacted to get something one wants, and narcissistic rage, which is the result of narcissistic injury. Suicide is then better understood as a response to the many narcissistic injuries of life. Is our country more violent? Hmmmm, we are a nation of aggressive people, bent on getting more of what we want. We also create great narcissistic injury and therefore narcissistic rage in segments of our people such as the poor as a result of powerlessness and discrimination. Daily life is full of interactions which create shame and narcissisitc injury and narcissistic rage. Empathic attunement goes a long way in reducing the negative effects of narcissistic rage. But what do we do about our aggressiveness??????????? |
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25 Apr 03 - 02:16 AM (#939740) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: DougR daylia: you suggest that I shoot Peg? Shame on you! To think you would go to such lengths just to prove your point! :>) 'Tis getting a bit testy here. Think I'll go find Bobert and slap him around a bit just for fun. :>) DougR |
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25 Apr 03 - 05:27 AM (#939791) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: McGrath of Harlow "Do my words on this thread promote peace or violence?" That's a remarkably daft question from an invisible presence; it's completely impossible to know which posts "my words" refer to, since all GUEST posts could well be from completely different people. |
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25 Apr 03 - 05:58 PM (#940259) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: GUEST,Cluin There's yer answer. It's violence. Stupid questions make you wanna slap the questioner. |
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25 Apr 03 - 06:07 PM (#940267) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: GUEST,Cluin And Nicole, to answer your question from above: it varies from person to person. I know many Canucks that, like me, consider our avowed multiculturalism a thing to be proud of, and others that consider it a useless and doomed socialogical experiment (they feel that different cultures cannot possible co-exist in close proximity and need to either assimilate and change the culture of the so-called majority from within as they do... "melting pot", IOW). But most probably just accept things as the status quo and don't think about it too much. I personally consider it a worthwhile experiment, perhaps the most worthwhile going on on the planet today. If we can make it work in our country, perhaps there's hope for a balkanized planet to not tear itself apart while still preserving cultural diversity. A tough way to go, but, what the hell... the melting pot option will always be there (assuming there's anything left when the dust clears). |
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25 Apr 03 - 06:21 PM (#940290) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: NicoleC Sounds similar to the US, Cluin; some folks think all those foreign influences are ruining us, others like me think it's a wonderful gift. But I think most Americans hold Ellis Island as powerful and important of an icon of "Americanism" as the Old West or the Boston Tea Party. |
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26 Apr 03 - 05:07 AM (#940543) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: GUEST Wow, McGrath and Cluin! Though the question was sincere, it obviously wasn't clear. (or daft, or stupid) The suggestion that the question was for personal reflection meant that each poster might ask the question of self, ie., consider his/her own posts in the thread, and think about whether their words promoted peace or violence. Not a bad question to ask oneself, really. Not snide, just something to ponder. |
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26 Apr 03 - 06:54 PM (#940931) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: Cluin I was just commenting on McGrath's response, Guest. |
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28 Apr 03 - 12:25 PM (#941956) Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way? From: GUEST, heric Okay I apologize for mushy-headed, but reserve on half-baked. |