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22 Apr 03 - 06:07 PM (#938032) Subject: BS: butt and ben From: mack/misophist This is a phrase that irritates me because, although I know what it means, I can't for the life of me figure out what the individual words mean. Since there are a number of Scottish persons here, perhaps some one could enlighten me. Google's no help. It's from a well known little poem. Up the close and down the stair, Butt and ben with Burke and Hare. Burke's the killer, Hare's the thief, Knox the boy that buys the beef. Any suggestions? |
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22 Apr 03 - 06:20 PM (#938043) Subject: RE: BS: butt and ben From: Metchosin Who said google can't do it. About 50 years ago, the farm houses in the county of Ayr [adjacent to Lanarkshire on the west] were despicable hovels; many of them were built in part, and some altogether of turf, or of mud plastered on stakes and basket work... That part of the building which served the family for lodging, sleeping, cookery, dairy &c, denominated the "in-seat", was about 12 or at most 14 feet square, with the fire either in the centre, or in the gable, without "jambs" or "smoke funnel". On larger farms, another apartment, of nearly the same dimensions, and which entered through the "in-seat", was called the "spense", in which were stored the "meal chest", "sowen-tub", some beds, a cask into which the urine was collected, known by the name of the "wash-tub", spinning wheels and reel, when not used, and the goodwife's press, if she had one. The other part of the building was occupied by the cattle, which generally entered by the same door with the family; the one turning to the one hand, by the "trans-door" to the kitchen, and through it to the "spense", and the other turning the contrary way, by the "heck-door" to the byre or stable. The "trans" and "heck" doors were in the centre of the partitions, so that the people in the "in-seat" saw "butt" to the byre, and the inhabitants of the byre and stable, could look "ben" to the "in-seat"; hence, houses built on that construction were said to consist of a "butt" and "ben". |
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22 Apr 03 - 06:22 PM (#938046) Subject: RE: BS: butt and ben From: GUEST, heric Looks like they're beef : http://www.cruachan.com.au/html/body_monarch.htm |
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22 Apr 03 - 06:22 PM (#938047) Subject: RE: BS: butt and ben From: GUEST,Melani Well, I'm not exactly Scottish, but my guess from years of reading in context is that a "close" is what we Yanks would call and alley, and I think "Butt and ben" is front and back, but not sure. |
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22 Apr 03 - 06:23 PM (#938050) Subject: RE: BS: butt and ben From: GUEST,Melani Wow, that was quick. Three other people answered while I was typing. |
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22 Apr 03 - 06:26 PM (#938052) Subject: RE: BS: butt and ben From: GUEST, heric or maybe not. |
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22 Apr 03 - 07:11 PM (#938087) Subject: RE: BS: butt and ben From: Metchosin Or you can go to Mudcat Quick Links for the Scots Terms http://www.mudcat.org/scots/index.cfm "ben" - inside(a room) "but(t)" - outer |
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22 Apr 03 - 07:18 PM (#938093) Subject: RE: BS: butt and ben From: kendall In the song, "Lassie with a yellow coatie" the sutor is telling her what he has to offer; "I've a butt and ben foo genty and I'd give it all to thee" |
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22 Apr 03 - 08:52 PM (#938153) Subject: RE: BS: butt and ben From: Little Robyn I thought it meant in and out - butt and ben was out and in. Butt and ben wi' diddle doddle, Tommy gars my tale toddle. |
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22 Apr 03 - 09:42 PM (#938175) Subject: RE: BS: butt and ben From: mack/misophist Thank you, all. Strange that I couldn't find it in the Scotts glossary. |
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22 Apr 03 - 10:30 PM (#938197) Subject: RE: BS: butt and ben From: Alba A But an Ben is a Scot's expression for a two roomed dwelling or cottage if you like. A kitchen and a parlor. A Scot's dictionary can be found at www.scots-online.org If seperated the two words are: but...external- Ben internal. Hope this helps A:>) |
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22 Apr 03 - 11:36 PM (#938223) Subject: RE: BS: butt and ben From: GUEST,ozmacca And you can also go, or come, "ben" into the room, as in the line from The Laird of Cockpen, "When she cam' ben, she bobbit." |
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23 Apr 03 - 03:07 AM (#938289) Subject: RE: BS: butt and ben From: GUEST,Boab Hey, Metchosin! When the heck was this piece written ---"50 years ago the houses..."----"Ayrshire--adjacent to Lanarkshire"....Is this a piece by McGonigle? Can't be; not even the genius who wrote about the Tay Bridge Disaster could possible rant on about the state of the farm houses being thus "50 years ago". Could have been Blind Harry, or Edward the Confessor, maybe? Mind you, I will say this---the housing described does come close to the conditions found in the West Highland "black-houses", the demise of which was fairly recent. The cattle and the human family did indeed shelter under the same thatch. The fire was usually in the middle of the floor, and there were seldom any chimneys. The smoke [I am assured] formed a layer which didn't come below head height, and percolated through the thatch above. This had the effect of ensuring a completely bug free environment. I vividly remember visiting a preserved example of a black-house near Kingussie, and standing next to an old lady who actually dissolved into tears over her happy girlhood memories of her own "black-house" home. Hey, there can be no finer space-heaters than a couple of old highland cows munching away just behind the wooden divider! |
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23 Apr 03 - 12:18 PM (#938575) Subject: RE: BS: butt and ben From: Dave Bryant I always thought that a "Butt and Ben" meant a small cottage with a "lean-to" extension. |
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23 Apr 03 - 03:30 PM (#938708) Subject: RE: BS: butt and ben From: GUEST It does Dave, read the second post on this thread. |
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23 Apr 03 - 07:00 PM (#938845) Subject: RE: BS: butt and ben From: Susanne (skw) It doesn't have the same 'solid' meaning in my native Low German, but we also say 'buten un binnen' for 'outside and inside', which is close enough to follow the language's migration from the Saxon shores to the Scottish Borders! More importantly: What misophist quotes is not a well-known little poem but the chorus to a well-known Edinburgh song. However, looking for a recording of it is driving me round the bend! Can anyone guide me to one? I once heard Nancy Nicolson sing it, but as far as I know she still hasn't recorded it. Robin Laing's song of the same title is a self-penned one. Where, oh where ...? |
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24 Apr 03 - 03:26 AM (#939057) Subject: RE: BS: butt and ben From: Metchosin don't know if it will help much, but there is a tune file for it in the DT. |
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24 Apr 03 - 04:20 AM (#939067) Subject: RE: BS: butt and ben From: Dani I seem to remember that that little bit that Robyn quotes above is rather risque, though I know nothing of the language. I thought the phrase was a euphemism (or something like) for what the singer was doing with Tommy! Dani (way in over her head) |
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24 Apr 03 - 06:18 PM (#939540) Subject: RE: BS: butt and ben From: Little Robyn Right Dani - it's a naughty little song. Same as Woody's Relativity song - 'but I can go in and out!' |
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24 Apr 03 - 08:56 PM (#939629) Subject: RE: BS: butt and ben From: GUEST,leeneia Fear not, Boab. We knew that "50 years ago" was a quotation from an old source. I read in a book somewhere that the smoke-filled black houses caused cancers of the eye in some of their unfortunate inhabitants. Makes sense to me. Long-term exposure to burned organics is nothing you'd want to risk. Good thing the black houses are gone, bugs or not. |
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11 Jan 04 - 10:47 PM (#1090801) Subject: RE: BS: butt and ben From: GUEST,Michele I'm trying to find out if Lassie wi' a Yellow Coatie is a Burns' tune or not, since I need to sing at a Burns' supper, and am tired of the standards usually sung. Anyone out there know if the song is too old or by someone else? Thanks much, Michele Buchanan |
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11 Jan 04 - 10:55 PM (#1090805) Subject: RE: BS: butt and ben From: Peace This site says Author Unknown. www.vogie.com/whatis.html |
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12 Jan 04 - 02:51 PM (#1091319) Subject: RE: BS: butt and ben From: GUEST,Van Michele Are you not missing the point - whatever "the standards that are usually sung" are if you wish to sing at a Burn's supper you sing a Burns song. To find them you look in one of the many collections of his poems and songs. If you don't like any of them go find another gig. |
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12 Jan 04 - 03:52 PM (#1091355) Subject: RE: BS: butt and ben From: kendall A "ben" is also a mountain, is it not? |
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12 Jan 04 - 05:15 PM (#1091410) Subject: RE: BS: butt and ben From: akenaton I was born in a two room cottage in the West of Scotland . I still live there although it is now modernised. Alba is right in her definition of kitchen in one end and parlour in the other,with sleeping accomodation in the attic. The cottage was referred to as "but and ben". When my grandparents were in the kitchen ,they would refer to the parlour as " ben the hoose",and vice versa....Ake |
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13 Jan 04 - 11:31 AM (#1091850) Subject: RE: BS: butt and ben From: GUEST,weerover "Lassie Wi' the Yellow Coatie" was not written by burns. wr |
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13 Jan 04 - 11:33 AM (#1091852) Subject: RE: BS: butt and ben From: GUEST,weerover Sorry, that should have read "...by Burns". In Scotland a burn is a small river, so it may actually have been written by burns, if you see what I mean...okay, get my coat. wr |
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13 Jan 04 - 12:08 PM (#1091894) Subject: RE: BS: butt and ben From: Kim C I thought you were talking about Jennifer Lopez and Ben Affleck........ |
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14 Jan 04 - 05:32 AM (#1092540) Subject: RE: BS: butt and ben From: Jim McLean In Paisley, where I was born, we never used 'ben' for 'come in'. To go 'ben the room' was to go into the other room (we only had two). You could say 'come on ben the room' meaning 'come with me into the other room'. Jim |
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14 Jan 04 - 06:01 PM (#1092845) Subject: RE: BS: butt and ben From: 8_Pints Hi Dani, Yes it definately is rude!!! I know and occasionally sing "Tail toddle" which contains the chorus Tail toddle, tail toddle Tammy get me tail toddle Butt and ben and diddle doddle Tammy get me tail toddle I believe that there is tale of a rather posh lady asking (Hamish Henderson?) what a tail toddle was and he replied "It is a woman's pudenda" I think she just sort of spluttered! Sue vG |
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14 Jan 04 - 06:50 PM (#1092883) Subject: RE: BS: butt and ben From: Joybell Pretty much covered but they're both also in Child's glossary. but = towards the outer apartment or kitchen, without, and out - as it occurs in three different ballads. ben = towards the inner apartment of the house. Joy |
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14 Jan 04 - 07:32 PM (#1092932) Subject: RE: BS: butt and ben From: GUEST,BOAB Still common usage in most of sou-west Scotland---ben the room, ben the kitchen,ben the hoose, "come ben here", etc.. |
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15 Jan 04 - 03:18 AM (#1093129) Subject: RE: BS: butt and ben From: robinia It isn't just Scottish. I seem to recall the term being used in a small book about traditional Cape Cod houses; a "but and ben" was one of them . . . |
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15 Jan 04 - 04:28 AM (#1093154) Subject: RE: BS: butt and ben From: Little Robyn The words for Tail Toddle are in the DT. Robyn |