Lord Inchiquin info pls

21 May 03 - 09:02 AM (#956862)
Subject: Lord Inchiquin info pls
From: GUEST,Ian P

Does anyone know about Lord Inchiquin, for whom Carolan wrote a tune? I seem to remember I knew once, and that he was a Protestant land baron who 'did his bit' to wipe out the local Catholics. For this reason, though I loved the tune, I couldn't bring myself to learn it to play. However, I now have nothing on him I can play my hands on. Is my memeory playing tricks on me? Information, please.

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21 May 03 - 09:30 AM (#956878)
Subject: RE: Lord Inchiquin info pls
From: MMario

Barony of Inchiquin

The first Earl (rather then 'Lord') died 1674 - O'Carolan was born in 1670 - so doubt if it was him.

The second Earl (William O'Brien )was on King William's side at the battle of the Boyne in 1690. He was also governor of Jamaica. Died 1691

The third Earl (another William O'Brien) didn't die until 1719

The 4rth Earl of Inchiquin succeeded to the title on December 24, 1919 and died in 1777. Carolan visited Rev. Charles Massey at Doonass which is close to the family seat at Dromoland Castle, Newmarket-on-Fergus, County Clare. It is likely the tune was composed at that time.

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21 May 03 - 09:31 AM (#956881)
Subject: RE: Lord Inchiquin info pls
From: greg stephens

I think you may be confusing two different Inchiquins. Now Murrough O'Brien, (Murrough of the Burnings),1st Earl of Inchiquin did have a bit of an unpleasant reputation, siding with Cromwell in the complex wars of the 1640's, and sacked a lot of south-western towns. He ended his life in Rome fo many years, atoning for his atrocities.
I think Carolan's Lord Inchiquin would have been William O'Brien, the 2nd Earl of Inchiquin. He was a Protestant, and did fight on King William's side at the battle of the Boyne, but I dont think he was notoriously nasty in any particular way(or no more than anyone else in that violent era). There was another William O'Brien, the 3rd Earl of Inchiquin, but I think the dates suggest that the 2nd is your tune man.

Frankly, if Carolan didnt mind, why should you? Go ahead and play it, it's a great tune.

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21 May 03 - 09:33 AM (#956883)
Subject: RE: Lord Inchiquin info pls
From: Amos

he 4rth Earl of Inchiquin succeeded to the title on December 24, 1919 and died in 1777

Taking the secret of tine travel with him forever...

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21 May 03 - 09:34 AM (#956884)
Subject: RE: Lord Inchiquin info pls
From: greg stephens

Beat me by a minute, MMario. But I got the dirt on the first Earl!

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21 May 03 - 09:35 AM (#956886)
Subject: RE: Lord Inchiquin info pls
From: MMario

oops! 1719 - obviously!

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21 May 03 - 09:54 AM (#956897)
Subject: RE: Lord Inchiquin info pls
From: GUEST,MCP

greg - it does seem to be the 4th Earl. Donal O'Sullivan's Carolan - The Life Times and Music of an Irish Harper gives "The subject is doubtless the 4th Earl..." with info as given by MMario above.

Mick

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21 May 03 - 10:18 AM (#956922)
Subject: RE: Lord Inchiquin info pls
From: MMario

those pesky symbols!

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21 May 03 - 10:48 AM (#956950)
Subject: RE: Lord Inchiquin info pls
From: masato sakurai

This, I hope, is the correct file.

X:1
T:LORD INCHIQUIN
C:T. Carolan
M:3/4
L:1/4
S: Fleischmann, Sources of Irish Traditional Music, No. 932 [p. 173]
K:D
A|dd/e/ f/e/|de/d/ c/B/|AFA|f2e|de/d/c/B/|AGF|GB/A/ G/F/|E2a/g/|
f>ed|dcB|AFA|f2e|de/d/ c/B/|A < dF|E2D|D2:|]|:A|
A/B/ c/d/e|ede|fdf|e2d|d/e/ f/g/a|abg|f>df|
e2d|d/e/ f/g/ a|abg|f>ge|d2f|g/f/ ee|efd|cdB|
A2a/g/|f>ed|dcB|AFA|g2f/e/|de/d/ c/B/|A < d F|E2D|D2:|]

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21 May 03 - 02:27 PM (#957098)
Subject: RE: Lord Inchiquin info pls
From: greg stephens

Yes,I was confused on the dates. It's got to be the 3rd or 4th that the tune was for.But was Carolan composing much after 1719? I should have thought the third Earl was more likely.When was the tune first published?

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22 May 03 - 03:09 AM (#957468)
Subject: RE: Lord Inchiquin info pls
From: GUEST,Ian P

"if Carolan didnt mind, why should you?" This is an interesting question, Greg. It puzzles me that Carolan should write tunes for those who disenfranchised or *completely wiped out* his compatriots. While it's true that it's unlikely Carolan wrote the tune for the first Lord, his descendents were not much better. Was it simply a matter of survival, that if Turlough didn't have commissioned tunes, he did not eat, so he could not afford to be choosy? If so, I imagine some of his Catholic friends must have been upset by him, for moral and political reasons. If it was a case of survival, then he made the same kind of choice, but to a lesser degree, as many, i.e. many became Protestant - thus by proxy siding with a vicious invasion - rather than have their land confiscated; Carolan composed for both sides of the divide rather than go hungry. Still some, like the Inchiquins, did more than just change allegience to survive; they seemed to throw themselves into Catholic persecution with relish. What was going on in Carolan's mind: we shall never know the answer. Does Donal O'Sullivan have anything to say on the question?

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22 May 03 - 04:29 AM (#957500)
Subject: RE: Lord Inchiquin info pls
From: GUEST,MCP

Ian - O'Sullivan devotes a chapter (2 pages) to Carolan And The Catholic Church. It opens: "When we consider the circumstances of Carolan's life, the social success that he enjoyed among the Protestant gentry, and the material profit that would doubtless have accrued to him from a change of religion, it says much for his strength of character that he lived and died a fervent Catholic". It then goes on to tell of some his religious practices, music he wrote for church (The Elevation the only survivor), and church friends and patrons. It finishes: "Carolan's religious convictions did not betray him into bigotry...". It goes on to refer to Carolan praising a Protestant patron (Toby Peyton), who was disparaged by a priest, with an extempories verse, translated as:

The kind good man must all our praise command,
Even the sage priest will bless the bounteous hand;
And, by the blessed light that shines above,
To this one rule I'll hold thro' good and ill-
True to my host and to his cheer I'll prove,
And as I find them I must praise them still.



The chapter on The Historical And Social Background says: "Some of the Big Houses were owned by Protestants, others were still in the hands of the old Catholic families, though a number of f these had become Protestant for the purposes of retaining their estates...The duties of a good neighbour often overshadowed religious differences..."


So he seems to have been a devout Catholic, but took people as he found them and was a pragmatist when it came to making a living.

Mick

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22 May 03 - 08:21 AM (#957582)
Subject: RE: Lord Inchiquin info pls
From: GUEST,Ian P

Thanks, Mick, that's interesting and helpful.

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22 May 03 - 09:19 AM (#957615)
Subject: RE: Lord Inchiquin info pls
From: GUEST

According to the sleeve notes for the "Chieftains, 3" album, the tune was composed in honour of the 4th Earl. There is a portrait of the, (I think,) 1st Earl, in Manchester City Art Gallery. In the notes accompanying the portrait it says he was called Burner Inchiquin because he and his troops sacked the town of Cashel and also that he had the "distinction" of serving both the Protestant and Catholic sides. It's a nice little tune, not difficult.

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22 May 03 - 10:00 AM (#957635)
Subject: RE: Lord Inchiquin info pls
From: GUEST,MCP

greg - the source given for Lord Inchiquin is the Bunting MSS in Queen's University Library, Belfast. Bunting published his earliest collection in 1796. O'Sullivan says of it: "they are the richest single source not only for Carolan's music but also for his verse...Moreover, the music was obtained from the most authentic sources, namely, the harpers who were Carolan's immediate successors". So no real help with dating there. However his dates are 1670 - 1738, so in 1719 he was still only 48 with another 19 years or so to live, so no reason he shouldn't still be writing (I haven't read far enough to confirm or deny that).

Ian - (since I have been started on this pesky re-reading business) in the chapter called His Subsequent Career after quoting (and denying the validity of) a few statements about Carolan only being at his best for descendents of the Gael, he goes on to say (lengthy quote I'm afraid):

"A survey of either Carolan's tunes of his words can leave us in no doubt as to the position...we can find no distinction in quality between those he composed for 'the descendents of the Gael' and those which were made for their supplanters...
  Was Carolan, then, unpatriotic- or worse still, a renegade and a sycophant? The answer is that he was none of these things, but merely one of a class of Irish harpers and poets who followed a tradition that had been established centuries earlier. We have already seen that the Irish bardic poets of the fifteenth century composed impartially for the old Irish aristocracy and for the noblesof English origin...
  It is to be said, then, that to animadvert on Carolan's failure to discriminate in the choice of patrons and on the absence of the patriotic note in his verse is to judge him by a false standard. Like other poets and harpers of his time, he observed the old-established convention of his profession, a convention which may be justified by the considerations of courtesy, social decency and savoir faire. The great Irish families freely opened their doors to him, and they would hardly have done so if he had violated their sense of propriety in making songs for their supplanters as well as for themselves. In such a case, moreover, he would not have been accorded praise by patriotic poets like MacCuarta and MacAlindon."

Mick

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22 May 03 - 10:33 AM (#957648)
Subject: RE: Lord Inchiquin info pls
From: greg stephens

We cannot understand those times by simplistic phrases like "descendants of the Gael" and "supplanters". Some of the most ferociously Protestant (in Ireland and Scotland) were as gaelic speaking and Gaelic descended as you like. And poltical alliances did not necessarily follow religious or ethnic lines either. The first earl of Inchiquin undoubtedly sided with Cromwell and killed a load of Catholics, but he killed plenty of Protestants too. And he was a perfectly Gaelic O'Brien. The religious ferment of the 1600's was not something Ireland was immune to: it didn't import all its Protestants, there were plenty of homegrown ones. The intimate linkage of Roman Catholicism and Irish nationalism was a much later historical phenomenon.
    Carolan was a harpist, towards the end of a long tradition, who lived on the patronage of the nobility of the time. The fact that he was personally a Catholic, and some of his patrons were Protestants, is hardly surprsing.

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22 May 03 - 10:48 AM (#957657)
Subject: RE: Lord Inchiquin info pls
From: MMario

then there is the fact that the "gaels" weren't native in the first place, but were just as much invaders as the Norse, Angles, Saxons, etc.

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22 May 03 - 01:19 PM (#957752)
Subject: RE: Lord Inchiquin info pls
From: GUEST,MCP

greg - I think you're just agreeing with what O'Sullivan was saying; he was commenting on what earlier writers had written about Carolan.

Mick

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23 May 03 - 02:00 AM (#958050)
Subject: RE: Lord Inchiquin info pls
From: greg stephens

Mick: I wasnt arguing with O'Sullivan, I think his book is excellent (as far as I can judge). He was quoting the phrase " descendant of the Gael",as I was. I was arguing with any suggestion that you could judge Carolan's actions in terms of some simplistic Catholic/Protestant or Gael/supplanter scenario.

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23 May 03 - 10:57 AM (#958221)
Subject: RE: Lord Inchiquin info pls
From: GUEST,Ian P

Thank you, all, for being helpful and clarifying the issues.

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23 May 03 - 06:43 PM (#958446)
Subject: RE: Lord Inchiquin info pls
From: greg stephens

So, IanP, we've had the discussion and chewed it round the block a couple of times. What we all want to know is, are you going to play Lord Inchiquin now, or not?

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23 May 03 - 06:45 PM (#958448)
Subject: RE: Lord Inchiquin info pls
From: greg stephens

PS and while you're at it, how about "Morgan Magan"?

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17 Aug 03 - 03:57 PM (#1003678)
Subject: Lord Inchiquin - a connection to the sea/navy?
From: Mad Maudlin

Hi all,

I've always liked the tune Lord Inchiquin, and ever since I first heard it it somehow reminded me of old sailing ships and Nelson's navy, even though it doesn't have anything to do with them, obviously.
I wonder if I could have heard it in a movie with a naval theme, or read about it in a book, forgetting about it afterwards. Or maybe I'm just going crazy? :)
(I know this sounds like a very stupid and potentially weird question, but I have to find out. Thank you for your patience!)

Nathali

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17 Aug 03 - 09:02 PM (#1003802)
Subject: RE: Lord Inchiquin info pls
From: Mark Cohen

Well, Nathali, I had a dream recently in which I was second officer on one of Lord Nelson's ships. I think we were off the coast of Portugal, or maybe it was Maui, and we were attempting to gain the upper hand on a Spanish galleon. I was desperately trying to prevent one of the sailors from playing the Highland pipes, which would have given away our position to the enemy. The man was dressed in scarlet, but his hands and face were bright blue, indicating either intense cyanosis or the prior application of woad. I was finally able to embed a wad of Juicy Fruit chewing gum in his chanter, and we bested the Spaniard. Strangely enough, the tune that this benighted fool insisted on playing was none other than "Lord Inchiquin." Hope that helps.

Aloha,
Mark

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18 Aug 03 - 03:08 AM (#1003868)
Subject: RE: Lord Inchiquin info pls
From: Mad Maudlin

Strange and funny dream, Mark! Or are you pulling my leg? It's not the first of April, isn't it? :)

Nathali

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18 Aug 03 - 07:25 AM (#1003927)
Subject: RE: Lord Inchiquin info pls
From: greg stephens

Mad Mudlin(nathali): Mark Cohen is undoubtedly pulling your leg, for the simple and obvious reason that it is not technically possible to play Lord Inchiquin on a set of Highland pipes, the range of the tune is too great!

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18 Aug 03 - 08:22 AM (#1003953)
Subject: RE: Lord Inchiquin info pls
From: Mad Maudlin

Greg, I know nothing about the tune range of Highland pipes, so please forgive me my ignorance ;) However, anything is possible in a dream and at Mudcat, right?
I realize my question was silly, but I can't get that idea out of my head and was wondering if anyone could help me. If only the voices in my head would shut up, LOL!

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31 Mar 04 - 11:42 AM (#1151048)
Subject: RE: Lord Inchiquin info pls
From: GUEST,[e-mail]

The Current Lord Inchiquin is one of the nicest people I have ever met, He lives on Dromoland Estate in Thomond House, and I had the pleasure of meeting him at the castle a number of times.

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31 Mar 04 - 02:17 PM (#1151148)
Subject: RE: Lord Inchiquin info pls
From: Giac

This is one of my favorite tunes as well, thanks for reviving the thread, guest, as I missed it first time around.

Living in abject ignorance of such things, I had no idea there even IS a current Lord Inchiquin. Now when I hear the tune, it will remind me there is a fella as nice as the melody.

Mary

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31 Mar 04 - 02:53 PM (#1151189)
Subject: RE: Lord Inchiquin info pls
From: Leadfingers

An iteresting fact (Is It?) is that The Chieftens recorded it as
O Briens Of Clare. Confused me a bit until I realised O Brien was the family name of Lord Inchquin

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17 Sep 06 - 10:16 PM (#1837063)
Subject: RE: Lord Inchiquin info pls
From: GUEST,Lee Miller

There were, of course, other Inchiquins, such as Murrough O'Brien, 4th BARON of Inchiquin, who strangely enough is associated with Clare, noted above.

Considering his sad demise, in battle, at Erne, I would tend to like 'Lord Inchiquin' to be a lament of him . . . [?]

As a small note, Lord is a title for Barons, not earls, although the 4th EARL of Inchiquin was also 9th BARON of Inchiquin; he was also Grand Master of the Premier Grand Lodge of England, 1727, though I don't know why such a great song would be written about him.

See below for further info on the Inchiquins:

Regards
Lee
Liverpool, New York

http://mostyn.com/Genealogy/Father/Family/WC06/WC06_049.HTM
Children
Dermod O'BRIEN 5th Baron Inchiquin
Teige O'BRIEN
Slaney O'BRIEN
Honora O'BRIEN
Mary O'BRIEN
Margaret O'BRIEN
More O'BRIEN

http://www.clarelibrary.ie/eolas/coclare/history/frost/chap14_expedition_of_earls.htm
For some years peace prevailed in the county [of Clare], a most unusual circumstance. The Burkes of Galway, broke out into rebellion, and the Earl of Thomond was summoned by Sir Richard Bingham to aid him in bringing them into submission [1590]. Again, in 1593, in 1596, and in 1597, the Earl's services were called into requisition to help the English. He left Ireland for England, in January, 1598, and remained there the whole of that year. Before his departure, he had been solicited by the Lord Justice to co-operate against O'Donnell who had revolted in Ulster. Murrogh, fourth Baron of Inchiquin, also was required to give his assistance. They promptly responded to the call, and marched their forces, under command of the Governor of Connaught, towards the North. In attempting to cross the river Erne, they were met by the army of O'Donnell, and the Baron of Inchiquin received a bullet in the arm pit, through an opening in his coat of mail. His body was carried to Assaroe, and buried in the abbey of that place. The Franciscan friars of the monastery of Donegal laid claim to the privilege of having his remains repose in their cemetery, and appealed to the bishops of Derry and Raphoe. Their demand was acceded to, and the Baron's body was re-interred in Donegal.

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22 Feb 10 - 10:11 AM (#2846617)
Subject: hello evryboddy!
From: Mr Happy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QmVf78rlY4s

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