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Origins: A methodology for dating songs etc.

22 Jul 03 - 10:43 AM (#988110)
Subject: Origins: A methodology for dating songs etc.
From: IanC

A lot of the most interesting (to me, anyway) threads on The Mudcat are ones involving the origins of songs and other folk traditions. I can understand it if this doesn't really turn you on, enjoying this is by no means the same thing as singing the songs and certainly no substitute. Many of us do, however, have a natural curiosity about these things and - like I say - I find it thoroughly enjoyable when I learn something new about how a song came to be.

Occasionally, some of these discussions, which by their nature involve speculation in our attempts to make sense of the information we have, are blighted by a misunderstanding of the nature of evidence ... particularly about dating. On the one hand there are those who, without any evidence at all, tend to assume that the origins of a song go back into the bowels of time. On the other are those who, having found what they feel is the earliest printed version of something, insist that it cannot possibly be older.

In an attempt to expose both these fallacies I'd like to propose that we use a methodology, and the associated terminology, which Archaeologists have been using for some time to rid themselves of inappropriate influences.

Here they are, with explanations.

Terminus Post Quem / Terminus Ante Quem


These two Latin terms are used by archaeologists to describe the relationships of objects to layers and other objects found in the ground. The dictionary definition of terminus post quem is the 'starting-point of a period'; that of terminus ante quem is the 'finishing-point of a period'. They are very important concepts, fundamental to the understanding of the development of an archaeological site and to the working-out of its likely date.

In archaeological usage, a datable object such as a coin found in a layer can only give the date after which the layer in which it is found was formed, and this could be any time after this date if there is nothing to indicate otherwise. This circumstance would be designated terminus post quem.

However, if a layer is cut by a ditch or other feature, then the layer must be earlier. The layer will thus have a date earlier than any datable objects in the layers or features above. This circumstance would be designated terminus ante quem.

Of course, if an object such as a coin has a date of minting on it, then an exact date is available. This dating is known as a Terminus Ad Quem - literally the fixed point at which something must have happened. Terminus Ad Quem dates are often available for songs from sheet music, though care must be taken that the claimed author and date are, in fact, the real author and that no earlier versions exist. An example of a fairly clear Terminus Ad Quem for a folk song is "Molly Malone", which was originally published as "Cockles and Mussels" Comic Song. (Written and composed by J. Yorkston, arranged by E. Forman.) Yorkston, James 1884.

:-)

22 Jul 03 - 10:45 AM (#988112)
Subject: Terminus Post Quem
From: IanC


Terminus Post Quem (The fixed point in time after which something must have happened)


Giving a Terminus Post Quem (TPQ) date means that we are able to provide an earliest date for something. TPQ dates are frequently available for folk songs, thought the method of fixing them may need to be treated with caution. They're usually available by means of internal evidence though it may be possible to provide a TPQ by other methods like the demonstration of a precursor (possibly a song or a tune, but maybe a story or historical event) which can, itself, be dated.

A good example of both these methods is provided by looking briefly at "The Black Velvet Band". Tracing this song back, it becomes quickly apparent that all the current versions of the song are derived from 19th Century broadsides. These broadsides are almost unsingable in their original format, and there is little chance that they originally derived from an existing traditional song (although there does appear to be some relationship between the broadsides and some broadside versions of "Ratcliffe Highway"). If your main interest is to provide a TPQ for the "traditional" version of the song, all you need now do is to provide an earliest date for the broadside versions.

Alternatively, it is possible to provide a TPQ using the internal evidence available in almost all the versions of the song. "The Black Velvet Band" is essentially a transportation ballad, which means that it must be dated on or after the date where the law in England and Wales provided for transportation as a punishment for various crimes. This provides a TPQ of 1718, which is when judicial transportation to America was first practiced in England following the passing of the Transportation Act in 1718. Because of the fact that all of versions of the song include reference to Van Diemen's Land, the TPQ can be adjusted to 1786 when (following the cessation of transportation to America in 1775) transportation resumed, this time to Australia.

Internal evidence available only in the broadside versions of "The Black Velvet Band" provides the means to adjust the TPQ still further. All the known early broadside versions include a reference to "Victoria Fashion" as a hairstyle (probably centrally parted and drawn together in a low "bun" at the back of the head). Victoria became queen in 1837 at the age of 18 and was seldom at court before this, so a TPQ of 1837 can be given based on this information.

The biggest pitfall with providing a TPQ date is due to working with an small but consistent subset of the available data. This can be illustrated using another example. "Dido, Bendigo" is a well-known hunting song which has been widely collected throughout England. The name of one of the dogs, Bendigo, is unusual in that it can be traced to a single source.

William Abednego Thompson was born on 11th October 1811, one of three triplets (they were named for Shadrak, Meshak and Abednigo). From his teens, he was known as "Bendigo". By the age of 18, he was prizefighting for money (he was the first "Southpaw") and on 21st July 1835 he won a famous fight against Ben Caunt at Nottingham. In 1839, Bendigo crowned his career by becoming champion of England, defeating James 'Deaf' Burke at No Man's Heath in Leicestershire. He retired undefeated, aged 39, in 1850. By this time, Bendigo was so famous that children, dogs and horses (as well as some newly founded towns) were named after him. In 1871, he became a Baptist preacher, and started a second career "fighting against satan". He died on 23rd August 1880, following a fall downstairs.

The use of the name "Bendigo" for one of the dogs in the song might be held to provide a TPQ for it (it does, of course, for those versions including the name). However, that is not the whole story. Firstly, a number of collected versions of the song use the word "Spendigo" rather than "Bendigo". Unless convincing evidence is available to the contrary, these can logically be taken to indicate that an earlier version of the song might exist and the TPQ becomes invalid. In the case of this song, though, there is also other evidence which vitiates the TPQ, namely that a much earlier version is known to exist. The words were, in fact, taken from a long ballad, entitled "The Fox Chase", narrating a hunt by Villiers, second duke of Buckingham, in the reign of Charles II. This ballad was printed by W. Oury, circa 1650 and is in the Roxburgh Collection.

22 Jul 03 - 10:45 AM (#988113)
Subject: RE: Origins: A methodology for dating songs etc.
From: IanC


Terminus Ante Quem (The fixed point in time before which something must have happened)


Giving a Terminus Ante Quem (TAQ) date means that we are able to provide a latest date for something. These dates are usually based on external documentary evidence and are often "safe" in the sense that they can be demonstrated objectively. A good example is the dating provided by a broadside version of a song. Using the example of the Black Velvet Band, again, we find it published on a number of broadsides by different publishers. In the Bodleian collection, and elsewhere, we find it published by (the dates are when the respective publishers were operating)

Swindells (Manchester) between 1796 and 1853
Such, H. (London) between 1863 and 1885
Paul, J. and Co. (London) between 1838 and 1845
Ryle, A. and Co. (London) between 1845 and 1859

What this tells us is that the song must have been in print by 1845 as this is the latest date by which a copy can have been printed by James Paul. It is important to note that it doesn't give an earliest date of 1838, as it says nothing about whether earlier versions exist. Nor does it suggest in any way that it could be as early as 1796 because Swindells might not have started publishing it until much later.

Dates based on external evidence can sometimes suffer from the problem that it is unclear if the evidence actually relates to the song. It is, for example, generally thought that the song "Dives and Lazarus" is at least as old as 1558 since one of the first ballads to be registered by the Stationers' Company, in that year, is a ballad "of the ryche man and poore Lazarus". As it happens this is quite likely, though it cannot ever be considered completely certain that this is the same song. Stationers' Company entries can, in fact, be quite misleading in some cases because at least one folk song forger used them as a basis of providing a false date for their own songs.

The most prolific forger of old songs using this method is J. P. Collier, and the following is summarised from BruceO's posting to an earlier thread.

About 1625 an Englishman bought a blank book and started entering in it some things that pleased him. He started various subject divisions at different places, leaving blanks for future expansion of each section. He never filled it up. This commonplace book, as such are called, came into the possession of John Payne Collier who proceeded to interpose a number of "old" songs using titles gleaned from the records of "The Stationers Company.

Collier announced his discovery of many 'old' songs in his MS, of the time of James I, in the 1st volume of his 'Extracts of the Registers of the Company of Stationers', I, 1848, and in the Introduction to the second volume, 1849, gave a list of the 'old' songs he found there, and added the texts of a few more. He also later gave some texts to William Chappell.

Collier's MS is now Folger Shakespeare Library MS V.a. 339, and is known as the Joseph Hall Commonplace Book. Collier never mentioned any of the real early songs in the manuscript.

Collier's forgeries of old ballads have spread far and wide. One of Collier's forgeries is "Full Merily Sings the Cuckoo" as it is called in Robert Bell's 'Ancient Poems, Ballads, and Songs', 1857.

22 Jul 03 - 10:55 AM (#988122)
Subject: Open Ended Dating
From: IanC

Conclusions which can be drawn from Open-Ended Datings


Good dating practise requires both a Terminus Ante Quem and a Terminus Post Quem. When only one of these is provided, the dating is said to be "open-ended". Open-ended datings are seldom helpful because assumptions based on them, however made, are dangerous.

The simple statement that a particular song first appeared in print in 1744 (TAQ) and is, therefore no older than the 18th Century abounds in quite learned publications. It is both misleading and likely to be untrue. Without further supporting evidence (which might provide a TPQ) it is invariably unhelpful.

If we take two songs with open-ended datings, and two potential authors, we can see that the conclusions we can logically draw are very limited. For the songs, let us take:

The Cutty Wren - thos has a Terminus Ante Quem only of 1744, being the earliest known date for a version of the song.
Skye Boat Song - This has a Terminus Post Quem only of 1745, being the date of the Battle of Culloden after which "Bonnie Prince Charlie" fled.

Here are two possible authors for the songs selected at random.

King Henry VIII, born 1509 died 1547
Hughie Jones of The Spinners, born 1948

What we can we say is confined to the following two statements only.

(i) The Skye Boat Song cannot have been written before 1745 (TPQ) as the events it describes happened on or after this date. Therefore King Henry VIII could not have written it, as he died before 1745.

(ii) The Cutty Wren cannot have been written by Hughie Jones of The Spinners as a version of it exists from 1744 (TAQ) and Hughie wasn't born by this time.

22 Jul 03 - 11:36 AM (#988156)
Subject: RE: Origins: A methodology for dating songs etc.
From: GUEST

The Fox Chase ballad is ZN75 in the broadside ballad index at www.erols.com/olsonw, and there is no evidence for it's existance earlier than the copy printed by W. Onley, not Oury, who finished his apprenticeship as a printer on Mar. 4, 1689.

22 Jul 03 - 11:45 AM (#988164)
Subject: RE: Origins: A methodology for dating songs etc.
From: IanC

Bruce

I'm grateful for the correction. The principle remains unaltered.

:-)

22 Jul 03 - 11:54 AM (#988173)
Subject: RE: Origins: A methodology for dating songs etc.
From: GUEST

I was stunned about 15 years ago to discover the the Folger Shakespeare Library had purchased an 18th century issue of the Fox Chase ballad. It was for $300.00.


More on the Fox Chase ballad in this Forum under Swarthfell Rocks.

22 Jul 03 - 02:54 PM (#988294)
Subject: RE: Origins: A methodology for dating songs etc.
From: GUEST,Q

Abendigo-Bendigo- This biblical character's name appears in hymns, spiritual and gospel songs, and as a 'christian' name, especially for slaves (supposed relation to Abyssinia as it used to be called). It needn't have any time relationship to the boxer.

22 Jul 03 - 03:43 PM (#988317)
Subject: RE: Origins: A methodology for dating songs etc.
From: GUEST,Q

My comment doesn't quarrel with your methodology, which is standard and proper, but I was trying to point out that manifold possibilities must be considered.
A real problem for many of us is trying to match our thinking to that of people of an older time period when we are trying to evaluate a possible piece of evidence. Sometimes it is important to do so.

22 Jul 03 - 04:04 PM (#988329)
Subject: RE: Origins: A methodology for dating songs etc.
From: GUEST,Les B.

While I appreciate the concept of narrowing down the dating of songs, I find that the labels - TAQ and TPQ - make my eyes glaze over! Sorry, I had a deprived education (no Latin)and would grasp the indicators better if they were in English. Otherwise, great idea.

22 Jul 03 - 04:17 PM (#988338)
Subject: RE: Origins: A methodology for dating songs etc.
From: GUEST,Jerry

A juicy topic, IMO. Establishing TPQ and TAQ should be a pleasant pastime for songs that have historical "artifacts" buried in them, such as references to penal colonies and battles. For the vast body of folk song without such datable items, or which never were printed in broadsides or slips or songsters, it seems that the task of dating would be akin to dating the artifacts of an archaeological site that had been dug up by a bucket loader, dumped into a truck and then driven to the archaeologist's lab.

Take sea chanteys, for example. Unless they descended from shore-side sources, such as broadsides, they didn't (with a few exceptions) appear in print anywhere until the late 1800s at the earliest, when the age of sail was already fading. So when Colcord and Hugill and Doerflinger started collecting them, there was very little evidence to use in dating them. For this type of folksong the best we can do is date the body of song from which they come.

I'm quite intrigued by the notion of a folksong forger, like the above-mentioned Mr. Collier. If there were money in it I'm sure we'd be seeing all sorts of fake murder ballads and transportation songs. I'm reminded of the rumor I heard that the well-known whaling song "The Bonnie Ship the Diamond" was collected under allegedly suspicious circumstances by A.L. Lloyd (or was it Ewan McColl?), and "that there's some as think 'e wrote it 'iself!"

Thanks for starting such an interesting thread, IanC.

Jerry

22 Jul 03 - 04:38 PM (#988358)
Subject: RE: Origins: A methodology for dating songs etc.
From: TheBigPinkLad

I was glad to find this thread. My blood pressure soars when I see so-called experts making assumptions based on earliest printed records. I collect old cookery books and the genre is notorious for saying "[certain foods] were not in use before [such-and-such a date] when they first appeared in a recipe of Lady XX." It's as though the food only came into existence with the recipe -- I have a similar aversion to people who claim certain music styles were 'invented.'

22 Jul 03 - 05:00 PM (#988366)
Subject: RE: Origins: A methodology for dating songs etc.
From: GUEST,Q

Mention of the recipe reminds me of a story in last week's newspaper. A recipe for what we know as lasagna turned up in an old English book (I think Elizabethan) and this brought out that the recipe was known much earlier than that in some other area. Of course some Italian insisted that these recipes were not for the real lasagna. Can't remember the details.

The earliest printed record is a point of reference- nothing more. It gives us something to shoot at. We know only that the song is at least that old. Other evidence (if any) must then be brought into play. We can examine the internal references (a la Ian) for clues, but we must also remember that the song writer might have known a bit of history and could have written it many years after the event.

Moreover, we only have to read the threads here to find out how easy it is to invent a history for a song and then delude one's self into believing it and insisting that others also believe.

22 Jul 03 - 05:39 PM (#988384)
Subject: RE: Origins: A methodology for dating songs etc.
From: GUEST,Russ

IanC,

Very interesting. Really enjoyed your posts.

Some remarks:
1.
It seems that the one of the most significant problems with certain kinds of "internal evidence" is the rather fluid nature of the "details" found in traditional songs. A classic example is Cas Wallin of the US who sings a version of Matty Groves which names the tattletale footy page as Robert Ford, killer of Jesse James.

Mondegreen-ization also causes such fluidity.

2.
I was also struck by the following in your discussion of "The Black Velvet Band":
"These broadsides are almost unsingable in their original format, and there is little chance that they originally derived from an existing traditional song..."

It looks to me as if there is a significant presupposition about "singability" lurking behind this claim. What evidence do you have that your notion of "singability" coincides with that of the 19th century target market for such broadsides? I ask because I agree with Q that "A real problem for many of us is trying to match our thinking to that of people of an older time period when we are trying to evaluate a possible piece of evidence."

3.
Finally, a modest acquaintance with "historical Jesus" scholarship leads me to feel that a consideration of the structure and form of a song would be a necessary component in determining age.

From my own experience, some ballads sound to me like they were intended to be passed on orally and some sound like the were intended to be read. I would assume the former are older.

23 Jul 03 - 08:14 AM (#988700)
Subject: RE: Origins: A methodology for dating songs etc.
From: IanC

Thanks for the posts so far, which seem to me to be very useful.

One thing I'd like to apologise for is the examples I've given, which were only meant to be illustratory. Obviously, they had to be summaries and this inevitably means I've had to simplify here and there. I've been reluctant to post this "article" for some time, as I felt it was inevitably going to be too long for The Mudcat's forum format. After seeking advice from Joe Offer, I eventually decided to risk splitting it up into (still quite long) sections and to go ahead with it.

A couple of specific points.

Despite the fact it was only used as an illustrative example, I'll expand on my very brief summary of the "Dido, Bendigo" to illustrate some of what I've had to miss out. Dating the use of the name "Bendigo" for hounds is a point which could go on for ever, but there are some good reasons for believing a hound called Bendigo was named after "The" Bendigo. Almost all the names given to hounds (I'll use examples from the song) are intended to indicate qualities which it is hoped they might possess, from aristocracy/gentility (Bonny Lass, Countess, Gentry, Dido, Jover Jove) to staying power (Rover, Traveller). The name Abednego (or its variations) is very rare in England and before 1840 the variation Bendigo appears not to be recorded at all. As an example, the Mormon (FamilySearch) records have only 26 people called Abednego Smith (or any variant, including Bendigo) between 1580 and 1856, and there are 8 Abednego Joneses (or variants) in all. The only instance I've so far found of someone in Britain called "Bendigo" is in the 1881 census where a Bendigo Jones is recorded as a 40-year-old unmarried boarder in the inn of John Jones, Inkeeper, in Ruthin, Denbighshire. A name used by slaves or even just any name (like John, for example) would be unlikely to be used for hounds unless it could be associated with some desirable quality. There appears to be no recorded instance of a hound called, for example, Meshak or Shadrach (the latter is four times more popular as a name than Abednego ... FamilySearch has 102 Shadrach Smiths), and there would be no reason to call a hound by that name.   Summaries have to exclude this level of detail or they'd be so long as to be unreadable.

Again, the singability or otherwise of "The Black Velvet Band" has no bearing on the argument I was putting forward (it was just me being tongue-in-cheek), but I take the point about "being in the spirit" (as George Fox said) when you're examining things from another age or culture. This sometimes requires an enormous amount of study, which is seldom translatable onto paper. As a related issue, the analysis of structure and form isn't popular at the moment, I think (perhaps being cynical) because it's difficult. It has a very important place in techniques like the construction of a series. Another archaeological tool, and one which was subsquently borne out (in general) when forensic techniques like radiocarbon dating became available. What's more important to me is that a conclusion which is drawn must be capable of being tested, and this means that it must be possible to disprove it given the right evidence.

I share Les's reluctance to use latin phrases, but it seems to me better to use existing terms with a well established technical meaning than to try and invent your own, and these are the standard terms already in use. I'm also very taken with the "bucket" metaphor, though I don't think that being presented with a mixed lot of junk is any excuse for not trying to examine it. Quite a few archaeologists and forensic scientists are given just this kind of job and it's surprising what can be done with the right tools. As for artefacts being unavailable, I think you'd be surprised just how much information there is if you look for it - though, obviously, not in every case.   

:-)

23 Jul 03 - 11:46 AM (#988864)
Subject: RE: Origins: A methodology for dating songs etc.
From: GUEST,Q

Not to quarrel, but I think it is funny that the first thing that comes up in Google for "Abendigo" is the gladpet.com list of names for dogs, which includes both Abendigo and Abednigo.
The name may not be all that common in the UK, but it certainly was well-known in North America in the 19th century, and is used currently by at least one musical group performing in the States.
This, of course, is not a flaw in the method, just the caution that multiple working hypotheses must be applied.

24 Jul 03 - 11:34 AM (#989616)
Subject: RE: Origins: A methodology for dating songs etc.
From: IanC

Thanks Q ... if I ever have a dog, I'll call it Abednego (not much chance, my wife's allergic to them).

;-)

25 Jul 03 - 10:48 AM (#990442)
Subject: RE: Origins: A methodology for dating songs etc.
From: IanC

Just for fun, and to highlight what is dangerous with the sort of implicit assumption you are making with statements like "You can't prove it's older than 1852" based on the date of the earliest written source, here's a little non-folk problem to ponder.

The Wall Bedstraw (Galium parisiense) is a small plant of the Bedstraw family. It was first recorded in Tottenham by John Sherard in 1690 and, though nationally scarce, can still be seen in Tottenham only a few yards from where Sherard spotted it.

Note what this tells us about the Wall Bedstraw ... about the only thing it proves ... is that it was there before Sherard spotted it. Similarly, knowing the publication date of the earliest manuscript source of a song can only tell you that it's older than that. Of course, it doesn't tell you how much older, but - as with the wall bedstraw - you then have to exercise your judgement about it, or (even better) use some other different evidence.

;-)

25 Jul 03 - 06:48 PM (#990788)
Subject: RE: Origins: A methodology for dating songs etc.
From: McGrath of Harlow

Bendigo. A singer can always incorporate a topical referaance into a pre-existing song - such as, in this case, the name of a popular prize fighter could be inserted in place of some other name that didn't carry the same weight.

I'm not saying that's the case here, but it's a point worth remembering. Songs are fluid, especially before they have ever been printed.

26 Jul 03 - 12:22 AM (#990918)
Subject: RE: Origins: A methodology for dating songs etc.
From: GUEST,Murray on Saltspring

Case in point: Dating "The Ball of Kirriemuir".The earliest extant text of "The Ball" is in Forbidden Fruit (later 19th century), a unique volume in the Murison Library, Dunfermline. In his introduction to The Merry Muses of Caledonia (1959 and later) the Burns expert James Barke refers to "The Ball of Kirriemuir" and relates its probable origin in an orgy occurring in north-east Scotland in the mid-1880s.
My late friend Gershon Legman however was categorical in his rejection of this.
In The Horn Book (1964) he says: "No date is given, but from a satirical poem at p. 60, on Annie Besant's birth-control agitation and methods (which first attracted attention in 1874, the poem being later [n.b.] reprinted in The Pearl, 1879-80, after the sensation of the Bradlaugh-Besant trial for Knowlton's Fruits of Philosophy), it may be dated as no earlier than about 1875." He goes on from there to assume that that terminus (a TPQ) is actually a TAQ, saying later unequivocally that the book is "c. 1875".   Armed with this date, he pours scorn on poor James Barke for postulating an origin for "The Ball of Kirriemuir" in the eighteen-eighties.
Then of course he examined the contents further, and had to say in his edition of MMC (1965, 288-9): "The only date occurring in the volume is 1824, at p. 44, but there are references, in the section on erotic riddles, p. 35-37, to the Queen (Victoria), Princess Alexandra, Gladstone, Annie Besant, Charles Stewart Parnell and Mrs. O'Shea, the last indicating a date somewhere in the 1890's, Parnell's political career having been ruined by the publicity given to Capt. O'Shea's divorce accusations in Nov. 1890." In spite of this Legman gives a "circa" date of 1890 to the volume, evidently wanting it to be as early as possible.         
So the date of Forbidden Fruit has to be at least 1891, and probably a year or two after that, and Barke may be more or less correct; it is possible that in five years or so [or ten!] a song composed on a memorable orgy could find its way to print, particularly since the texts, on linguistic grounds, seem to derive from the North-East.
It is a pity that Legman so forcefully "proved" Barke to be misinformed, since his opinion is cited by such as Bob Pegg in his analysis of "Rugby Songs" — see his Folk (London, 1976), p. 81, calling Barke's anecdote "folklore" (i.e. rumoured rubbish); and note that a decade after Legman recanted, his first opinion is still taken as valid.

28 Jul 03 - 05:04 AM (#991817)
Subject: RE: Origins: A methodology for dating songs etc.
From: Hrothgar

Ian, I'm sorry to hear that your wife is allergic to Abednegos.

:-)

28 Jul 03 - 08:08 AM (#991876)
Subject: RE: Origins: A methodology for dating songs etc.
From: McGrath of Harlow

It's risky to try to build much from internal evidence in the text of a song. References to events that happened long before a song was composed can be included, references to events long afterwards can be inserted.

04 Aug 03 - 04:03 AM (#996273)
Subject: RE: Origins: A methodology for dating songs etc.
From: IanC

Kevin

That's why TAQ/TPQ is so important.

:-)

04 Aug 03 - 06:58 AM (#996325)
Subject: RE: Origins: A methodology for dating songs etc.
From: greg stephens

IanC: very interesting set of posts, plenty of food for thought. I see that you don't really go into one very vexatious about the age of a specific song: how you define the song before you try to date it. For example, we often read in fossil/evolution stuff, of things like "the earliest human". Since we all go back one generation at a time to the first amoeba, youve first got to decide PRECISELY what you mean by "human being" before you can try and date when the first one arrived. I know you are well aware of this, but it does need to be dragged into the discussion at an early stage. Because of the evolutionary nature of a folksong, we nedd always to know just what mean by "Dido, Bendigo" before we start on the possible dates.
    On that specific topic, because the word "Bendigo" may have been inserted into an existing song because of the current fame of the Bendigo, I think we should take a look at the "Dido". I think this points to the song not being much before 1000BC.

04 Aug 03 - 09:07 AM (#996387)
Subject: RE: Origins: A methodology for dating songs etc.
From: Billy Weeks

This is something of a digression from a fascinating thread, but mention of Bendigo reminded me that at some time in the 1940s a boy at my school recited a monologue about the later, religious bouncer, days of Bendigo the pugilist. Does anyone know a printed source for this?

04 Aug 03 - 11:08 AM (#996476)
Subject: RE: Origins: A methodology for dating songs etc.
From: IanC

Billy

It was probably "Bendigo's Sermon" by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle. It's available by following the pages here.

It has been set to music, hence the guitar chords.

:-)

PS I don't think we need to spend too much time on what I originally put in as an example of a major methodological pitfall anyway ... I wasn't expecting to draw any conclusions from it, just to show what damage some assumptions can make. One or two of you seem not to have read the original post!!!

Perhaps Greg's got it right, though I suspect that Dido's a later insertion anyway. Anyone care to speculate in the relationship between Dido and Bendigo?

BTW the Duke of Buckingham might be held to be ubiquituous to this song (he's in all the versions I've come across so far, up to the earliest recorded here), in which case it might prove indicative of a likely TPQ date.

Here, I should say that it's often important to speculate and not be too worried when people show that you're wrong. It's near impossible to progress knowledge without getting it wrong occasionally; all that's needed is a little humility.

;-)

04 Aug 03 - 12:25 PM (#996532)
Subject: RE: Origins: A methodology for dating songs etc.
From: IanC

Greg said

I see that you don't really go into one very vexatious about the age of a specific song: how you define the song before you try to date it.

Glad you said that Greg, because it brings us onto the next topic area, which I mentioned only briefly above.

The Construction of a Series

Sorry I haven't prepared anything on this yet (I've been on holiday for the past week and I'm only just caching up). I'll tr and post something in the next day or so.

:-)

08 Sep 03 - 12:16 PM (#1014817)
Subject: Methodology - Chronological Sequence
From: IanC

Chronological Sequence

Students of traditional song are, in general, less interested in determining the fixed point of origin of a particular variant of a folk song than in tracing the development over time of a song or family of songs. For this reason, it seems worthwhile introducing another set of concepts used in archaeological dating.

Archaeological dating is carried out using a combination of two independent logical systems, Relative Dating and Absolute Dating.

Relative Dating methods provide a Chronological Sequence which, in archaeology, can be reasonably straightforward for a single excavation where the stratigraphic layers provide a natural sequence by the association of items within a layer and the superposition of layers. Constructing a sequence across more than one site is more difficult, though it can be done using a statistical technique known as seriation. This provides a way of ordering materials into a sequence based on methods such as the stylistic analysis of pottery, and was first employed by Sir Flinders Petrie in the late 19th Century. This kind of analysis is, in part, subjective, though its results can be objectively tested. The sequences produced were initially roughly delineated and little more than good educated guesses. However, the result of serious study and refinement over more than a hundred years has led to a situation in which, where they have been tested by objective methods, these techniques have been generally borne out.

Absolute Dating provides a fixed time scale by anchoring certain key items or events to an absolute calendar date. Absolute dates can either be determined directly (for example from a dated coin or document) or indirectly. Indirect determination can be achieved either by association with a dated object within a context or by cross dating, based on using objects whose ages are known to infer dates for similar items in undated contexts.

The main aims of dating in studying folk song are rather different than for archaeological research. Archaeologists are mainly interested in producing an accurate calendar dating as a global context within which they can describe their particular finds. Whilst an absolute date for a folk song may be interesting, the emphasis on the origins and development of a particular song or song family mean that the determination of a Chronological Sequence, and the associated dependencies, becomes a primary goal in itself.

Below, I'll illustrate the first stages of setting up a sequence using an example. Note that the sequence is by no means fully established and that it is essentially speculative, neither have I used any objective or statistical methods so far. However, I'll give reasons (in summary) for what I've done and it is based on quite a lot of work in comparing the texts I've been able to find (amounting to 200 hours or more). Comments are very welcome, but please hold your breath and read the posts again before you make them too flippant!

08 Sep 03 - 12:16 PM (#1014818)
Subject: The Black Velvet Band I - Origins
From: IanC

Setting up a Chronological Sequence
The Black Velvet Band I - Origins

As an example of how we might approach the production of a Chronological Sequence, let's just look at our old favourite "The Black Velvet Band".

We have already established that "The Black Velvet Band" began life as a Broadside Ballad between 1837 and 1845. A transcription of the Swindells version is here:

A - Broadside printed by Swindells

However, as I've already suggested, it doesn't appear to have survived into the oral tradition in that form - unless the following, rather cryptic, entry in Steve Roud's index provides more information (Peta Webb of the RVWML has confirmed that this appears, in fact, to be a word-for-word copy of the broadside version though it may well have been collected from a singer, provenance unknown.).

BLACK VELVET BAND, THE; ; ; To go in a smack down to Barking; Index to MS collection; Alfred Williams MS No.Mi.535 (Bathe/Clissold Index); ; ; ; ; Williams, Alfred; Reference only; 930727; 2146; ; ; ; ; ; =Pkt.30

The main elements of the story in the broadside versions can be summarised as follows.
The singer recalls sailing in his youth while an apprentice in Barking. One day, wandering alone on Ratcliffe Highway, he met a pretty young girl, hair as described, whose beauty so impressed him that he changed his lifestyle to become a petty criminal. He describes various hair fashions and concludes (presumably with hindsight) that all are preferable to a black velvet band. He then warns other young men against taking up with these "gay ladies" though admitting that he's still attracted to his own nemesis. The narrative continues with a description of how she took up with a navy sailor. No longer desiring his company, she slipped an item of stolen property into his pocket and then informed against him. He was taken in charge, put in prison and finally sentenced to transportation.

19th Century broadside versions are widespread, mainly from London printers such as J. Paul, T. Birt, H. Such , Disley, W. S. Fortey, Ryle, and Edwards but also, well before the end of the century, from other cities including Manchester (Swindells), Birmingham (Pratt), Glasgow and Dublin. This wide spread indicates that the song was popular and this is emphasised by the fact that copies of broadsides appear as far afield as Canada and Australia. Inspection of the broadside versions reveals that they are uniformly similar except for what might be expected from the typographical license common to broadside printers.

Note. Since verses in traditional versions of the song are often half the length of those in the broadside version, I have used the letters a and b to denote the first and second halves of verses in the broadside where relevant. Thus, lines 1 and 2 of verse 6 is described as verse 6a and lines 3 and 4 of verse 2 are called 2b. Half-verses not described in the broadside versions are denoted Xx.

Setting up a Chronological Sequence
The Black Velvet Band II – Overview of Developments and “Transitional” Versions

Comparison of the broadside versions of the song with a large sample of the collected traditional versions indicates that there are two very prominent developments in the traditional versions of the song.

The story is shortened into a fast flowing series of actions (meeting, theft, arrest and judgement) from what is originally a sequence of separate actions joined by descriptive narrative. The supernumary character of the “bold man of war’s man” is removed, along with a most of the, essentially redundant, descriptive elements. An act of theft from a “gentleman” is introduced, so that meeting and theft are simultaneous and arrest and judgement follows swiftly after. A moral is sometimes appended (which might be loosely based on Verse 5a of the broadside, though such verses are commonplace).

A chorus is developed from the second half of verse two.

The combination of the two developments leaves a song of the same length or slightly shorter as the verses, without the chorus, become half the length of those in the broadside version.

I have, as yet found only one version which does not have the chorus. This was collected by Peter Kennedy from Bill Cameron in 1956.

B - Kennedy, Peter "Folksongs of Britain and Ireland" (1975) page 695 (no. 313)

Bill was a member of St Mary’s Lifeboat crew in Scilly and learned the song from Tommy Crocker, a fireman on board the “Lioness” (probably the Lyonesse), a mail ship which ran from Penzance to Scilly, before World War I.

This version is essentially verses 1 and 2 of the broadside, followed by verse 6a/7b and finally Xx/8b (the final verse beginning with an invented half verse). Line 1 of verse 1 has been amended to localise the song in Belfast and the reference to Ratcliffe Highway has been removed from line 2 of verse 2. Verses 3, 4 and 5 – largely descriptive, but with some action – have been omitted. There are a number of other minor amendments, either to remove the criminal argot or to make more sense of the action, and the end of verse 8 is heavily modified. The supernumary character remains, though he has changed his role a little and, as in the broadside, there is no theft incident. The version makes rather less sense overall than the original.

There are several mondegreens, in particular line 3 of verse 1 where “At length future prospects were blighted, as soon you may all understand,” becomes “Till my future prospects belated, Which gave me to understand,” and line 1 of verse 6 where “For she towed in a bold man-of-war's man ...” becomes “O one evening a flash-man a watchman ...”. Notably, the girl’s eyes – described in the original as “black as a raven” are now described as having “shone like diamonds”.

While the song has already undergone quite a lot of modification, both intentionally and accidentally, the direct relationship with the broadside version remains undeniable.

08 Sep 03 - 12:16 PM (#1014819)
Subject: The Black Velvet Band III – Traditional Versions
From: IanC

Setting up a Chronological Sequence
The Black Velvet Band III – Traditional Versions: Analysis of The Chorus

Existing analytical studies of folk songs suggest three useful approaches for stylistic study.

Study of the overall story should provide a long-term overview of how a song develops because, despite changes in details, the story elements are usually very stable over time. A relatively simple method would be to precis the story of each version independently and then compare the elements of each.

Study of key words and phrases is almost the opposite of studying the story. This provides details as to how the most ephemeral parts of a song change with time.

Study of a distinctive sample gives a compromise between the two approaches above, providing both continuity and the potential for fairly rapid change. In the case of the Black Velvet Band, the most obvious sample to study is the chorus (verse 2b), which is both distinctive and common to all versions.

The basis of the chorus is verse 2b of the broadside version (A), as follows.

Her eyes were as black as a raven,
I thought her the pride of the land,
Her hair, that did hang o'er her shoulders,
Was tied with a black velvet band.

Even before this has developed into the chorus, the most distinctive change, in the first line, has already been made (B), resulting in the following, which is only essentially identical in line 2.

O her eyes they shone like diamonds
And I thought her pride of the land,
And her hair it hung down o'er her shoulders,
And tied in a black velvet band.

Choruses from the following versions have been successively compared with the two above, and with each other (the fragment F does not include these lines).

C - Seeger & MacColl, "The Singing Island" (1960) page 82 (No. 75)
D - Meredith & Anderson, "Folksongs of Australia 1" (1967) pp.145-146
E - Meredith & Anderson, "Folksongs of Australia 1" (1967) 1 pp.49-50
F - Meredith & Anderson, "Folksongs of Australia 1" (1967) pp.192-193
G - Cyril Poacher (Broomfield Wager, Topic 12TS252)
H - Hughes "Irish Country Songs" Volume 4 (1936) pages 52-55

The result of these comparisons can be summarised as follows.

Version C follows B in lines 1 and 3 and A in line 4. In line 2, however, "pride"(A/B) has become "queen", in line 3 "hung down o'er"(B) has become "hung over" and "tied with" (A) has become "tied up with".

Version D follows B in line 1 and A in lines 3 and 4. In line 3, however, "her hair, that did hang o'er" (A) has become "the hair that hung down on".

Version E is fairly idiosyncratic. Line 1 adapts B, with "they shone like diamonds" becoming "were like two shining diamonds". Line 2 is clearly related to C, adapting "I thought her the queen of the land" to "they called her the queen of our land". Line 3 is most similar to D, though "hung over" (C) replaces "down on" (D). Finally, line 4 is the same as A.

Version G is very similar to B in lines 1 and 2, with only "shine" in line 1 for "shone" (B). Lines 3 and 4, however, are exactly as C.

Version H shows signs of rewriting, "velvet" being replaced by "ribbon" in line 4 (otherwise as C) and line 3 being completely rewritten as "with her hair thrown over her shoulders". Line 1 is, however, exactly as B and line 2 suggests C, "I thought her the queen" being replaced by "you would think she was queen".

This initial analysis allows us, from the available information, to draw up a sequence of styles. These can be defined, with dependencies, as follows.

Style 0 is congruent with the broadside version.

Style 1, developed from style 0, is characterised by the change from the eyes being described as "black as a raven" to shining "like diamonds". Versions B, D and G are examples of this style.

Style 2 is developed from style 1. It includes the eyes shining like diamonds, but the girl is thought of as "the queen of the land" instead of "the pride of the land". Versions C and E are examples of this style.

Style 3 is developed from style 2. This appears to involve a significant rewrite, and is characterised by "velvet" becoming "ribbon". Version H is an example of this style.

08 Sep 03 - 12:17 PM (#1014820)
Subject: The Black Velvet Band IV – Traditional Versions
From: IanC

Setting up a Chronological Sequence
The Black Velvet Band IV – Traditional Versions: Analysis of The Song

Having used the chorus to establish a basic sequence, it should be possible to use independent analysis of the rest of the song to test the sequence and, if appropriate, to refine it. A balanced analysis can be achieved by combining an analysis of the overall story with a study of the occurrence of key words and phrases in the various versions. The result of this kind of study is a large untidy grid which cannot be posted here. It is, however, reasonably easy to summarise.

Since, apart from the chorus, both the fragments E and F have only the verse dealing with trial and sentencing, this part of the story seems the most appropriate place to start. The broadside versions (A) have no trial and the singer is sentenced to an unspecified period of transportation in Van Diemen's Land. Version F follows this exactly, replicating the "free passage" (A) as a "free trip". Versions B, D and G include trial by the Lord Mayor or Lord Justice. The sentence in each case varies, being transportation (B and D) or simply "doomed" (G) as does the period of time (unspecified (D), 16 years (B) or 7 years(G). Finally, in versions C, E and H, trial is by a judge and jury. Again the sentence varies from transportation (C and H) to being told off by the judge (E). The period is 7 years, where specified (C and H). This part of the song displays a close resemblance between versions A and F and also between versions C and H.

The other group of actions - meeting, theft and arrest – can be similarly analysed. Versions A, B and H have the meeting and the passing of a stolen object (there is no theft) as separate actions. Version G is confused, missing the information needed to decide. In all these case, however, an arrest occurs. Versions C and D have separate meeting and theft, but with no arrest. The stolen article is variously a "Fogle" (A), a Watch (B C and H) or a Gold Watch (D and G). In this part of the song, there is a close resemblance between versions A and B and also between versions C and D.

Incidental details to the action include the singer's role, the location of the incident and the misfortune resulting from it. In all cases except version G where he was "a printer" (mondegreen), the singer was an apprentice at the time of the story. In some versions he is described in more detail as an "Apprentice Boy" (B) or as an "Apprentice to Trade" (C and H). The location is variously given ad Barking (A), Belfast (B and C), London (D and G) and Tralee (H). When the action begins, the singer is walking along Ratcliffe Highway (A), The Broadway (C and H), his "usual beat" (D) or this is unspecified (B and G). His misfortune is variously described as "future misfortune" (A), "bad misfortune" (C) or both (H). It is not described at all in versions D or G and version B has a line of nonsense (mondegreen). There are close resemblances between versions C and H and also between versions D and G, though those between D and G are mainly due to omissions.

The role of the woman varies slightly more than that of the singer. She is a "gay young deceiver" (A and B), a "pretty maiden" (C and D) or a "damsel" (G and H). In some versions, she is further described as having dark or black eyes (a, B, C and D), a neck like a swan (C) or being "ticklesome" (H). A warning is given against women of her type in versions A, B and C and she is cursed by the singer in all versions (A, B, C, D, G and H). Close resemblances exist, in these descriptive elements, between versions A and B, and there are some resemblances between version D and versions A, B, C and G as well as between versions G and H.

The two supernumary characters in the song are either an accomplice (A and B) or a victim (C D and H) but never both. There is no supernumary character in version G.

Versions C and H include final morals, which are remarkably similar.

The outcome of all this is that, perhaps surprisingly, the proposed styles based on an analysis of the chorus are very largely supported (things may be rather more complicated but it's not possible to find a better overall schema with the information available). Exemplars of a particular style show, in general, strong relationships with each other and with some, but not all, of the exemplars of parent or child styles. With one exception (see below), there are no close correspondences between styles which are more that one generation apart. It should be noted that the fragmentary version F, not previously dealt with, is very close in style to the broadside version (style 0).

Probably, there is little more to say without analysing further versions in more depth. However, there are two details which should be noted.

First, very strong correspondences occur in three cases. These are between versions A and B, versions C and D and versions C and H. It is worth noting that, in each case, these are between versions belonging to parent/child styles in the current schema. It's tempting to speculate that these versions represent the closest ones to the version from which a new style developed.

Secondly, looked at in closer detail, small correspondences do exist between versions which have been placed further apart in style than parent/child styles. Examination of these reveals that they all involve version H. From some of the peculiarities of the story in H, it seems likely that this was a significant rewrite of the original song (probably based in version C given the close correspondences). If so, however, the author of this version probably had access to more than one version of the song, perhaps including the broadside.

08 Sep 03 - 12:17 PM (#1014821)
Subject: The Black Velvet Band V – Some Conclusions
From: IanC

Setting up a Chronological Sequence The Black Velvet Band V – Some Conclusions.

I've tried to show, here, how it might be possible to set up a simple model of the development of a song. So far it's quite simple and unlikely to be the complete picture. One important feature, however, is that it's possible to test it by pointing out ways in which it does not fully fit the picture. New versions can be matched to the existing sequence. If they fit, then they will provide us with information about how the song developed. If not, they may be the basis of a completely different and more accurate model. Nothing is wasted.

You may have noticed that I've said nothing about other aspects like the localisation of the song. This is because I don't believe that internal evidence alone can help with these things. We all know of songs (like "Cockles and Mussels" - based in Dublin, written by a Scotsman for the London music hall) where an "obvious" provenance can lead us up the garden path. The original location in Barking was obviously not well known to a worldwide audience and the temptation to give it a better location probably led to London in a number of versions. I'm happy to speculate that the location to Belfast occurred quite early on because of the singer's use of the phrase "apprentice boy" (reminiscent, for a number of reasons, of Belfast or Derry). One of the two "Belfast" versions also mentions "Broadway", a place which does not exist in Belfast. The "Tralee" version is clearly a more straightforward localisation (it was collected in the locality) but I'm already of the opinion that this is a fairly late (though before 1936!) rewrite.

One thing I can say is that this song has a strong relationship with seagoing people and seaports. Peter Kennedy collected it from Bill Cameron in 1956. Bill was a Scilly lifeboatman who got it from Tommy Crocker, member of a mail boat crew (evidence from the 1901 census suggests, by the way, that Tommy was born in Surrey). Cyril Poacher learnt his version in the 1950s from Alf Moseley of Harwich when the latter took his summer holidays in Blaxhall (again, evidence from the 1901 census suggests that Alf was born in a neighbouring village, which is why he took his holidays there) and Harry Cox also got quite a few of his songs from Norfolk sailors. One of the three Australian versions was collected in Sydney, and all the places mentioned in the song, with the exception of Tralee (4 miles from the sea) are ports.

I hope this has proved worthwhile. I've certainly learned a lot while I've been doing it!

:-)
Ian

08 Sep 03 - 12:54 PM (#1014844)
Subject: RE: Origins: A methodology for dating songs etc.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

In recent threads, a couple of minstrel songs have come up, from the ca.1850 era. Forgotten the details now, but one was issued in the U. S. in say, 1852. It was also issued in England the same year, but with part of an English-Irish song appended to make it more understandable to an English audience.
If we didn't have the actual data on its origin and dating, you can imagine what speculations would develop over its original provenance.

This just emphasizes your comments on songs like "Cockles and Mussels." The parlor songs of Edinburgh in the 19th c. often took up Jacobite or earlier themes. Song writers who know a bit of history can give their song the feel of something quite old. One hundred or more years later, if the original has been lost, we would have posts arguing its age.

08 Sep 03 - 01:40 PM (#1014871)
Subject: RE: Origins: A methodology for dating songs etc.
From: McGrath of Harlow

"We have already established that "The Black Velvet Band" began life as a Broadside Ballad between 1837 and 1845."

No we haven't. Even if it were possible to demonstrate that all later variants could be traced to the broadside that would do nothing to prove versions of the song hadn't been around previously.

08 Sep 03 - 07:20 PM (#1015046)
Subject: RE: Origins: A methodology for dating songs etc.
From: Snuffy

Tralee was an important port in the emigration to America of the 1840s onwards. I've been round the museum, near the terminus of the Tralee and Dingle railway.

09 Sep 03 - 03:53 AM (#1015254)
Subject: RE: Origins: A methodology for dating songs etc.
From: IanC

Kevin

We have. Believe me.

Ian

09 Sep 03 - 07:29 AM (#1015329)
Subject: RE: Origins: A methodology for dating songs etc.
From: GUEST,Lighter

Any conclusion, even IanC's, may be altered by further evidence, but in practical terms the burden of proof is on the challenger. It would be safest to say, "On the present evidence, it appears to descend from the broadside ballad of 1837-45," but the caveat of new evidence is often merely assumed. Without specific evidence, we shouldn't just assume the song is older (regardless of generalizations like, "You can't date folklore"; when you get as specific as this, sometimes you can).

So the appearance of the song in the 1967 film, "The Adventures of Moll Flanders," set in the mid 18th Century, is another Hollywood anachronism - as is the playing of "Blow the Man Down" on the concertina in the same movie.

09 Sep 03 - 08:48 AM (#1015385)
Subject: RE: Origins: A methodology for dating songs etc.
From: McGrath of Harlow

All that a written source for a song can in principle prove is that the song isn't any later than the date of the source.

And all that a reference to a particular event or name can prove is that any version of the song that includes that does not precede a particular date.

09 Sep 03 - 09:15 AM (#1015405)
Subject: RE: Origins: A methodology for dating songs etc.
From: Noreen

McG, Ian stated both those points in his first posts to the thread, explaining the methodology...

09 Sep 03 - 09:20 AM (#1015410)
Subject: RE: Origins: A methodology for dating songs etc.
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan

I missed this thread when it first appeared. Nice to see an attempt at a rational approach to a tricky problem. Often I think the main thing is to learn to resist the temptation to be dogmatic about anything - especially myths!

Regards

09 Sep 03 - 04:16 PM (#1015694)
Subject: RE: Origins: A methodology for dating songs etc.
From: McGrath of Harlow

Yup, he stated that, Noreen; but then he went beyond it by appearing to claim that the existence of a written source proved that a song could be no older, which it doesn't, rather than that it could be no younger, which it does.

09 Sep 03 - 05:11 PM (#1015737)
Subject: RE: Origins: A methodology for dating songs etc.
From: Art Thieme

When my old uncle died we had no idea how old he was. We cut his wooden leg in half and counted his rings. He was 102 years old. My aunt died of terminal slivers.

Art Thieme

09 Sep 03 - 05:18 PM (#1015743)
Subject: RE: Origins: A methodology for dating songs etc.
From: Art Thieme

He was actually the only guy I ever knew who had a wooden leg from the knee up.

Art

10 Sep 03 - 05:16 PM (#1016495)
Subject: RE: Origins: A methodology for dating songs etc.
From: pavane

I liked the DOUBLE anachronism in Poldark, of Jenny Lind being played on a (Hohner) Melodeon in 1796!

02 Oct 03 - 01:37 PM (#1028118)
Subject: RE: Origins: A methodology for dating songs etc.
From: GUEST,Cathleen

Ian,
You look like the resident "Black Velvet Band" expert, so I'll pose this question to you. Is there any meaning to the 'black velvet band' other than the obvious hair ornament? I ask because in the version that I listen to, it says something like "For 7 long years is your sentence, You're going to Van Deiman's land, Far away from your friends and relations, To follow the black velvet band."   The last passage is what is confusing- to follow? I suspected at one point it referred to the Black and Tans, but am confused. Any help appreciated.

Cathleen-USA
ctcharb@yahoo.com

02 Oct 03 - 01:50 PM (#1028126)
Subject: RE: Origins: A methodology for dating songs etc.
From: McGrath of Harlow

I'd just take it that the lady with the black velvet band is being transported too.

10 Sep 06 - 04:37 PM (#1831337)
Subject: RE: Origins: A methodology for dating songs etc.
From: GUEST,John Moulden

Contrary to representations above, there is a Broadway in Belfast. It runs between Donegall Road and Falls Road.

10 Sep 06 - 06:11 PM (#1831417)
Subject: RE: Origins: A methodology for dating songs etc.
From: GUEST,Joe Richman

Google maps show Belfast's Broadway. It is in a neighborhood with street names such as "Nubia", "Soudan" and "Kitchener". So can we assume that streets in that area were named (or re-named) within say 20 or so years after the victories of Kitchener in the Sudan over the Mahdi's successors? ( Since more than about 20 or so years after an event, new victories might be used to name streets.) As I recall the victories were in the early 1890s.

Joe

(I need to reset my cookie hence the GUEST tag)

25 May 07 - 12:52 PM (#2060797)
Subject: RE: Origins: A methodology for dating songs etc.
From: Azizi

This thread caught my attention as I'm interesting in "guesstimating" when certain children's rhymes were composed based on their references to famous people, events, and other "internal evidence". I'm also interested in documenting the meaning of certain words and phrases in specific rhymes that become clear once the references to actual events are known.

In his 09 Sep 03 - 08:48 AM post, McGrath of Harlow wrote "...all that a reference to a particular event or name can prove is that any version of the song that includes that does not precede a particular date".

If I understand this point correctly, it means that if a rhyme {or a song} includes a referent to an actual event, we know that it couldn't have been composed before that event occurred. Is that what you meant?

For example, I'm thinking about a "family" of children's rhymes that obliquely refer to an actual occurrence involving the pop singer Michael Jackson.

Here's two versions of that rhyme:

Down by the river near the hankey pank where the bullfrogs jump from bank, to bank, and they say E I O U, your momma stinks and so do you so ping pong ding dong your daddy smells like king kong. Ask your teacher what she wears, polka dotted underwear. Not too big and not too small, just the size of city hall. Michael Jackson went to town, coca-cola brought him down. Coca-cola brought him up, now he's drinking 7up. 7up with no cafiene, now he's seein' belgain (pronounced beligene). Belgain is outta sight, now we're talking dynamite. 10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, BAM!
-Veggie; 8/21/2006 http://www.cocojams.com/taunting_rhymes.htm

-snip-

Down by the banks with the hanky pank
where the bullfrogs jump from bank to bank
singing eips ieps oops umps chilly willy ding dong
I pledge allegiance to the flag
michael jackson makes me gag
Coca Cola burns his butt
now we're talking 7-up
7-up has no caffeine
now we're talking beligene
beligene is out of sight
now we're talking dynamite
tic, toc, tic, toc, tic, toc boom!

GUEST,Allison; Date: 20 Feb 07 - 06:49 PM
http://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=94034&messages=88; RE: Origins: Down by the Banks of the Hanky Panky

In my opinion, both of these rhymes are made up of two independent rhymes. In both of these rhymes, it is the second part of the rhyme which refers to an actual "historical" event. In the first rhyme presented, the second part of the rhyme begins with the line "Michael Jackson Went To Town". In the second rhyme presented, the second part of the rhyme begins with "I Pledge Allegiance To The Flag". In both these examples, the second part of the rhyme obliquely immortalizes an incident that occurred on Jan 27, 1984 during R&B superstar's Michael Jackson's taping of a Pepsi-Cola commercial. Twenty five year old Michael Jackson was singing his hit song "Billy Jean" when sparks from the fireworks that were supposed to be shown in the background of the commercial accidentally set Jackson's greasy 'jheri curled' hair on fire.

Given this information about this "historical incident", at least those two parts of those rhymes can be dated to be no earlier than Jan 27, 1984. Furthermore, given information about that accident during the soft drink commercial, it is possible to understand where the lines "coca-cola brought him down" in the one rhyme, and "Coca Cola burns his butt" in the second rhyme came from. Also, knowing that Michael Jackson was singing his hit song "Billy Jean" when the mishap occurred, the lines "now he's seein' belgain", "now we're talking beligene" and "beligene is out of sight" are understandable. If this information wasn't known, we might assume that these rhymes meant nothing at all. But instead, "belgain" and "beligene" are examples of the folk process at work, and these rhymes are wonderful examples of how children's rhymes may document and provide commentary about historical events.

25 May 07 - 02:02 PM (#2060852)
Subject: RE: Origins: A methodology for dating songs etc.
From: DMcG

In his 09 Sep 03 - 08:48 AM post, McGrath of Harlow wrote "...all that a reference to a particular event or name can prove is that any version of the song that includes that does not precede a particular date".

If I understand this point correctly, it means that if a rhyme {or a song} includes a referent to an actual event, we know that it couldn't have been composed before that event occurred. Is that what you meant?

As I read McGrath's comment, not quite. There is a difference between a song that almost entirely about an event, like a battle, and one that contains a reference to it. Certainly, that *specific version* can't be older than the event, but basic song could be. This is particularly the case with children's rhymes, which are much more about the children entertaining themselves than about telling a specific story. As a result, the basic song can be appreciably older than any passing reference it has picked up.

25 May 07 - 05:16 PM (#2060978)
Subject: RE: Origins: A methodology for dating songs etc.
From: Azizi

"There is a difference between a song that almost entirely about an event, like a battle, and one that contains a reference to it."

DMcG, thanks for that important clarification.

I'm in total agreement that children's rhymes are "much more about them entertaining themselves than about telling a specific story". Although I believe that these rhymes serve other social purposes,
I don't think that children are conscious of those purposes. And I don't believe that children who recite this rhyme even know or care what those references to Michael Jackson, Coca Cola, and bilgaine mean. Children are much more interested in the rhythm of the rhyme than in what the words they are reciting mean.

That said, I do believe that the inclusion of a passing referent can be used to indicate that in its entirety that specific children's rhyme composition does not precede a particular date. It's important that people don't assume that "date" in this context means the date of composition for each of the separate independent rhymes that make up that particular rhyme composition, but rather for that entire rhyme composition.

I believe that part I of the "Down By The Banks Of The Hanky Panky" rhyme [as presented in the first part of the two rhymes I posted} was adapted from the first verse of "May Irwin's Frog Song" {1896}.
And that song may have been an adaptation of an even earlier song that was in African American oral tradition.

See these excerpts from Mudcat posts:

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: a big bullfrog jumped into the lake
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Dec 04 - 06:39 PM

...It originated back around the turn of the (19th-20th) century as "May Irwin's Frog Song," one of several of this massively built entertainer's hits— others included "Lulu" and "Bully of the Town." She had a knack of picking up song material from black sources, so it's not impossible that hers are rewrites of even earlier stuff. Irwin repays study; I only wish she'd recorded so we could hear the voice that tickled thousands in vaudeville days. --Bob Coltman

and

Subject: Lyr Add: MAY IRWIN'S FROG SONG
From: Jim Dixon - PM
Date: 01 Jan 05 - 03:49 PM

This is the song mentioned above, but it probably isn't the song littledaddy1803 wanted.

The sheet music for MAY IRWIN'S FROG SONG may be found at The Library of Congress American Memory Collection. May Irwin (1862-1938) was the performer, not the songwriter

MAY IRWIN'S FROG SONG
Charles E. Trevathan, 1896

1. Away down a-yonder in Yankety Yank,
A bullfrog jumped from bank to bank
'Cause there wasn't nothin' else to do.
He stubbed his toe an' in he fell,
An' de neighbors all say dat he went to well,
'Cause he hadn't nothin' else to do...

25 May 07 - 07:34 PM (#2061043)
Subject: RE: Origins: A methodology for dating songs etc.
From: McGrath of Harlow

If I understand this point correctly, it means that if a rhyme {or a song} includes a referent to an actual event, we know that it couldn't have been composed before that event occurred. Is that what you meant?

Not exactly - though it depends on what is meant by "have been composed". A particular version of the song could not have existed prior to an acual event referred to in it, but that wouldn't rule out the reference being inserted in a song that already existed. And that is something that often happens, especially in playground rhymes, but also in a whole range of other orally transmitted songs.

It's analogous to what happens with jokes, where a contemporary figure will replace an older one. A Hitler joke becomes a Stalin joke, becomes a Saddam Hussein joke, and likely enough, dig around and it might turn out to have a prehistory as a Napoleon joke...