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26 Sep 03 - 03:43 PM (#1025265) Subject: BS: Remarkable courage - a story kept quiet From: alanabit On the news in Germany yesterday, there was a story about twenty-six Israeli pilots who had signed a statement that they would refuse to carry out attacks which they knew would kill innocent civilians in Palestine. Having seen this story in neither Yahoo nor on the BBC, I can only speculate as to why they are so quiet about one of the most encouraging stories I have ever heard in the news. It takes a special sort of courage to defy orders in the military world. I know of very few examples of servicemen putting their own conscience above all other considerations. In a year like this, isn't it strange that the UK and the USA should be so strangely reticent? |
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26 Sep 03 - 04:04 PM (#1025279) Subject: RE: BS: Remarkable courage - a story kept quiet From: McGrath of Harlow The story was in yesterday's Guardian Israeli pilots refuse to fly assassination missions And here is a story about it and a round up of some media coverage of it on the BBC site. Entering "Israeli pilots" in google comes up with a few more stories about it - but it doesn't seem that most newspapers outside the region are too interested in it. Well, they wouldn't be, would they? A story that isn't either "wicked Israelis" or "wicked Palestinians" just doesn't fit. |
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26 Sep 03 - 04:54 PM (#1025300) Subject: RE: BS: Remarkable courage - a story kept quiet From: Joe_F It was on the Boston Globe Web site yesterday (25 September). |
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26 Sep 03 - 04:56 PM (#1025301) Subject: RE: BS: Remarkable courage - a story kept quiet From: alanabit That's exactly what I'm on about Kevin. Thanks for the links. I think there is more to it than that though. I think that the idea that the Geneva Convention or a basic respect for human rights should override the the commands of a superior is a very dangerous one for the military establishments at any time. For the US and the UK, this isn't just any time. |
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26 Sep 03 - 05:34 PM (#1025328) Subject: RE: BS: Remarkable courage - a story kept quiet From: McGrath of Harlow The Nuremberg trials were very clear indeed - it is the duty of everybody in the armed forces to refuse toi obey orders to commit a war crime. "I was only obeying orders" is not a sufficient defence. And assassinations such as this would almost certainly be classed as war crimes, if they ever came before a War Crimes Tribunal. So far as UK law is involved, my understanding is that this principle is incorporated, in theory at least. I am certain that if a case like this were to arise in Britain the government would make sure there was no trial, for fear of the verdict. The interesting thing, if this comes before an Israel court, will be to see if it will uphold this Nuremnbereg principle. |
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26 Sep 03 - 06:20 PM (#1025345) Subject: RE: BS: Remarkable courage - a story kept quiet From: Deckman I only hope that this is a bellwether of things to come. Bob |
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26 Sep 03 - 07:19 PM (#1025373) Subject: RE: BS: Remarkable courage - a story kept quiet From: Gareth I read the articles - The excellent point is that, if I read them correctly, was not that the reserve pilots concerned were over worried about the policy of retaliation/assasination, but that they were concerned about collateral damage/killing inocent civilians. It is a mark of the humanitarian principals of those who founded he IAF that the final choice on Weapon release/opening fire is left to the piolot involved, not "orders" from the CO or ground controller. Gareth |
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26 Sep 03 - 08:42 PM (#1025418) Subject: RE: BS: Remarkable courage - a story kept quiet From: AliUK McGrath said: "And assassinations such as this would almost certainly be classed as war crimes, if they ever came before a War Crimes Tribunal." *chuh* as if the Israelis will ever be brought before a war crimes tribunal. As long as we are dreaming let´s George. W. and Bony Tony to trial as well, it´s about as likely. |
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26 Sep 03 - 09:00 PM (#1025426) Subject: RE: BS: Remarkable courage - a story kept quiet From: The Fooles Troupe Quite some time ago, a large part of the army signed a petition that they would not serve in the "occupied territory" - Military is compulsory, unless you are a religious nut, er, student, er, whatever. Robin |
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26 Sep 03 - 11:48 PM (#1025490) Subject: RE: BS: Remarkable courage - a story kept quiet From: Stilly River Sage Seems it's about time for another of those major "Mothers" movements, as have happened in Ireland and Chile and elsewhere. Mothers of the dead speak a universal language of grief. Peace has to start somewhere--and this move by pilots is as good a place as any. Just don't try to sing or teach about it in Seattle schools. SRS |
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27 Sep 03 - 12:03 AM (#1025496) Subject: RE: BS: Remarkable courage - a story kept quiet From: Amos That Mary McNeill is a noble woman and I am really proud of her. A |
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27 Sep 03 - 12:04 AM (#1025497) Subject: RE: BS: Remarkable courage - a story kept quiet From: Amos Not to mention the courage of those Israeli pilots, of whom I likewise proud!! A |
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27 Sep 03 - 02:23 AM (#1025517) Subject: RE: BS: Remarkable courage - a story kept quiet From: MudGuard Last thing I heard in the news last night was that these pilots were thrown out of the armed forces... |
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27 Sep 03 - 02:59 AM (#1025521) Subject: RE: BS: Remarkable courage - a story kept quiet From: Arnie Some pilots were suspended but according to the IAF spokesman, most of those involved in the boycott are part-timers and veterans who would not be used for these type of missions anyway. Sounds like the sort of spin that Alistair Campbell would be proud of...... |
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27 Sep 03 - 04:04 AM (#1025529) Subject: RE: BS: Remarkable courage - a story kept quiet From: Keith A of Hertford BBC R4 carried the story in the week. |
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27 Sep 03 - 08:29 AM (#1025582) Subject: RE: BS: Remarkable courage - a story kept quiet From: Bobert I'd like to see a few US pilots sign up but that 'ill never happen. Too much testosrone from the nationalistic country songs, Budweiser, Football and NASCAR... Keeps *Sky Pilot* all charged up... Nevermind... Bless these the Isreali pilots... Bobert |
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27 Sep 03 - 10:36 AM (#1025613) Subject: RE: BS: Remarkable courage - a story kept quiet From: The Fooles Troupe Don't forget the "speed"! Now when Tom Hanks said, "I fell the need, the need for speed" he wasn't kidding! Thw guys who flew into the alpine lift years ago, & several "friendly fire" incidents have been linked to this.. Robin |
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28 Sep 03 - 09:25 AM (#1025785) Subject: RE: BS: Remarkable courage - a story kept quiet From: Blues=Life Tom Hanks? That I would have liked to see. Tom Hanks playing Top Gun. *g* |
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28 Sep 03 - 02:26 PM (#1025847) Subject: RE: BS: Remarkable courage - a story kept quiet From: GUEST,sorefingers Don't know if it's related but 26th was Jewish newyear and that means Rosh HaShanna - at which time people are supposed to make peace, confess sins and promise to live a better life next year. Perhaps these Pilots read the commandments and realized they are murdering innocents as well as the guilty! |
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28 Sep 03 - 04:34 PM (#1025925) Subject: RE: BS: Remarkable courage - a story kept quiet From: Amos ANy follow up? A |
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29 Sep 03 - 08:26 AM (#1026251) Subject: RE: BS: Remarkable courage - a story kept quiet From: alanabit If there is, I doubt if we will hear much about it Amos. Stories of human decency tend to be deemed less newsworthy than those of brutality, murder and retaliatory murder. It is a terrible waste, because this action could have sent a more important message to the Palestinian people than they have heard for years. |
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29 Sep 03 - 08:52 AM (#1026271) Subject: RE: BS: Remarkable courage - a story kept quiet From: Wolfgang Why did it look initially as if this story would be held quiet? The pilots had decided among them before going public not to give any interviews to foreign media: "We want the discussion to take place in Israel and not in foreign media". Wolfgang |
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29 Sep 03 - 09:22 AM (#1026295) Subject: RE: BS: Remarkable courage - a story kept quiet From: McGrath of Harlow The impression from casting around is that the story didn't in fact get a great deal of media attention. For example, apart from the Guardian, I don't think any other mainstream newspapers in Engkand covered it. |
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29 Sep 03 - 10:01 AM (#1026318) Subject: RE: BS: Remarkable courage - a story kept quiet From: Wolfgang "Impression from casting around" is a nice phrase telling not much. If you go to the website of The Times and search for 'Israel' you'll find easily that it was covered in that newspaper. Wolfgang |