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21 Oct 03 - 02:41 PM (#1039103) Subject: Trad. vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: black walnut Arnie brought up on a different thread that at the recent OCFF (Ontario Council of Folk Festivals) conference, it looked like trad. would end up in the history books rather than having a presence on festival stages. It wasn't appropriate to respond to it on that thread, so I've started this one. I have certainly noticed this trend over the years at our Ontario Festivals. Thankfully there are still places such as the Celtic festival in Goderich at which trad. is the mainstay. I really feel that it is a responsibility of festival organizers to keep trad. alive and well. The public needs to be educated. There can be a mix. I worry so much when festivals such as Eaglewood promote themselves now as singer-songwriter festivals. Can't there be a mix, and sometimes some creative interplay between these two streams of music? Why should a trad. artist, such as Arnie, be shut out of any folk festival? ~black walnut |
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21 Oct 03 - 02:48 PM (#1039109) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: GUEST Depends on the festival, imo. Some festivals could do a better job keeping trad acts on the main stages, but choose to keep them on the smaller stages. I can live with that, and it seems like a reasonable solution. On one hand, the festival needs to remain financially solvent if it is to continue, so having at least a few big name draws for the ticket sales is fine with me, even if the festival has historically been one where trad was common. Festival organizers do have some responsibility to keep trad prominent in the historically trad festivals. But I don't think they have any responsibility to keep them pure trad, especially if it means eventual bankruptcy. As to singer-songwriter festivals, why not? I think they are fine too. There is room in the world for all sorts of music festivals. I'd need some proof that singer-songwriter festivals steal the audience for trad festivals--I wouldn't think the two would mix that much, considering the antipathy many trad purists feel towards the singer-songwriters. |
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21 Oct 03 - 03:00 PM (#1039122) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: Jerry Rasmussen Being one a them danged singer-songwriter types, and also one a them danged traditional music singing fools and having run a festival heavy on traditional music with songwriters like Bill Staines and Gordon Bok(who for some reason slips under the singer-songwriter radar completely) I can truly say I Can See Both Sides Now. My favorite festivals are those that welcome both traditional music and songwriters who have a love for traditional music that is reflected in their repertoire, and the songs that they write. I loved the Eisteddfod in the years when Howard Glasser was running it, and performed there many times. I loved the balance... tipped heavily toward traditional music, but not condescending toward musicians who wrote songs, too. I would enjoy festivals that are all traditional music, but I don't really know of a single one. There are usually some songs that no one would seriously label traditional. My only gripe about some traditional music is that the musicians forget that the music was played to entertain... not to educate, or most deadly of all, to be revered. Echhhhh! The only songwriters-only festival I've ever been to I were one of the songwriters... I felt tradition starved by the end of the festival, and would think about doing that again, even though everyone there was enjoyable, warm and friendly. I think that traddies and songwriters should mix fine... The farmer and the cowman should be friends. Jerry |
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21 Oct 03 - 03:07 PM (#1039126) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Black Walnut - Arnie who? I assume the festivals you are mentioning are in the U.K.? Over the years I've seen trends shifting at various festivals here in the northeast U.S. While singer-songwriters have become the overwhelming favorite, there are still spectacular festivals that find room for both. Old Songs is probably a good example. The New Bedford Summerfest has done some wonderful scheduling. Seeing the Copper Family share workshops with singer-songwriters really helped show the connection. Here in the U.S., I think the majority of attendees go for the ambiance and good time. Hardcore folkies and hardcore singer-songwriter fans make up just a small part of the attendees. Festivals that cater to families, provide a diversity of entertainment, good food and most importantly - good value - will do well. |
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21 Oct 03 - 03:08 PM (#1039127) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: Clinton Hammond I have to admit, I'm more interested in the new stuff than the old... mostly cause I've heard a lot of the old stuff to death... But it's like the Vikings used to say, "only good swords become old swords"... If it's good enough, it'll stand the test of time... it might go away for a while, but it'll never be gone... Windsor had a Celtic Fest here for a few years... and the 2nd year the joke was "15 bands, 6 songs"... cause nearly every band did crap like "Star Of The County Down" and "Whiskey In The Jar" and "Wild Rover"... The same old stuff that we (They) played in pub gigs... It's no wonder that in years 3 and 4, people stayed away in droves and killed the fest... |
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21 Oct 03 - 03:12 PM (#1039134) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: McGrath of Harlow Can't have one without the other. When the different sorts of music rub along together it's good for all of them. Keeps this alive and alert. If a new song can't stand up in the company of old songs, it's probably not too good a song. And if an old song which has proved itself through time can't stand up in front of new songs, it means it isn't being sung right. |
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21 Oct 03 - 04:00 PM (#1039156) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: open mike yes but do the cattle ranchers and the sheep ranchers get along? |
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21 Oct 03 - 04:04 PM (#1039158) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: WFDU - Ron Olesko With each other or the livestock? |
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21 Oct 03 - 04:07 PM (#1039161) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: black walnut Ron - no, I am talking about Ontario Canada, not the U.K. The Arnie I was referring to is Arnie Naiman, a fantastic Old Time banjo player who has performed and recorded with Chris Coole, Chris Quinn, and Brian Taheny - and Mudcatter. ~black walnut |
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21 Oct 03 - 04:13 PM (#1039163) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Oh yes! I've played his music on my show. Great CD's!! I would love to see him in performance someday. I am very surprised to hear that trad is having such a hard time getting onstage in Canada. Based on the recordings I've received and people I've talked to, I thought that trad music was more widely accepted in Canada. That is a real shame if festivals are having problems in sharing the stage. Such beautiful music from Canada! |
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21 Oct 03 - 04:15 PM (#1039165) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: GUEST,Arnie Naiman Hello there - I'm the Arnie - I play some banjo - old and new stuff - It's hard to get a gig. Festivals in Ontario for the most part are turning into nothing more than performance acts for modern singer songwriters. There is little folk culture in what many of these singers do, unless sitting and gawking at beautiful people with beautiful voices with attitudes and power chords with acoustic guitars all plugged in has become what folk culture is now about. There is almost nothing participitory for the audience in what they do other than the audience being entertained. This is a far cry from Mariposa's initial festival vision where acts were mixed, treated as equals and trad made up more than 50% of what went on. You could actually jam , sing along, dance and be involved in a cultural folk music experience back then. Now you just sit and wait to hear the next star, or wanna be star - that's it. There are still examples of good diverse festivals - Goderich, Ottawa festivals are examples of that. It looks to me that trad music will be relegated to the bars, pubs, sing arounds, camps, community dances etc. and kept to it's own community's activities for now, until some of these AD's and promoters realise again that this music is good enough for the masses. |
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21 Oct 03 - 04:26 PM (#1039173) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Hi Arnie! Good to "talk" to you here!! I love your music! :) Your story about festivals in Ontario reminds me of one festival (which I won't name)that had been my favorite festival since the late 70's. The festival started out as a great cultural experience as you mention- diverse acts, dancing, jamming, and a mix of well known performers and relatively unknown "source" singers. The atmosphere was amazing. Each year the crowds would swell and suddenly the promoters began going after more "names" - many that were more pop than traditional. I rarely attend this festival anymore because they just don't get it. Now I count the days to great festivals like Old Songs, my absolute favorite! Part of the "issue" is changing tastes. Let's face it, singer-songwriters sell more CD's and get more airplay in general. Even though the bubble seems to have burst (or at least sprung a leak), they are the draw for contemporary audiences. I see festivals like Old Songs, New Bedford, Champlain Valley and others continuing to prosper and always giving variety. My gut tells me they will outlive the festivals that cater soley to the singer-songwriter crowd. Ron |
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21 Oct 03 - 10:49 PM (#1039368) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: JedMarum I must admit I struggle with this. I play a mix. I write a lot of what I sing, and I sing a lot of trad. My new songs often sound like old songs ... so some folks don't know where to put me. Playing the Celtic venues is a help, because they are nearly always open to both - and I am comfortable playing a non-celtic song there now and then, if there's a reason to tie it in. I have more trouble in the folk world. I had one venue pissed off because I played a few "cover" songs, among my own compositions (they were trad really, and definately NOT cover, but I didn;t argue - I just won't go back). I have to say, even as a singer songwriter - I sure do get singer/songwriter'ed out pretty quick. There's too much interest in the whiney, "I know what's wrong with; you, Mom, Dad, my old girlfriend or me"... sort of songs. Too much self focus. It looses prety damn quick. Do I sound a bit cynical? ;-) |
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21 Oct 03 - 10:53 PM (#1039371) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: JedMarum Actually, though I suppose my humor was a bit too subtle, this is exactly what I was talking about in this thread. |
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22 Oct 03 - 12:26 AM (#1039404) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: Amos Well, Jed, bumps and grinds are part of the trade, I guess, but I certainly hear ya about the navel tuning class of act. It is hard on the ole attention span, no? But there are kindred souls out there, so be of good cheer. Just plan on your next production run in Toronto, or a world tour for the Beef Brothers!! A |
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22 Oct 03 - 01:29 AM (#1039420) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: Joe Offer I prefer it if the songwriters sing at least some traditional songs. Songwriter songs can be fine, but they tend to be a "performance." Traditional songs are something everybody can share - the product of the people, rather than the work of an individual. -Joe Offer- |
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22 Oct 03 - 01:57 AM (#1039427) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: Mark Cohen Somebody, somewhere, once sat down and thought, "Hmmm...what about 'Mother, give me my dinner, for I'm a very tired sinner'? No, that doesn't work. How about 'Oh, my mother, I am weary, let me lie down, won't you, dearie'? Not quite... Hey, I've got it! 'Mother, make my bed soon, for I'm weary with hunting and fain would lie doon.' Cool!" Even the traddest song was made by a songwriter. Aloha, Mark |
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22 Oct 03 - 02:14 AM (#1039434) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: Liz the Squeak You've hit it Mark - how does a song become traditional unless someone first writes it and sings it round? There are still some folk out there who are adamantly arguing that certain songs (mostly from the Sy Khan stable) are traditional and are thoroughly chastened when they learn that the author is still alive - it's like Les Barker says: 'Here's a traditional song that I've written'. The crux of the question has to be (and I say this with due trepidation and knowledge that there must be at least 49 threads already on this, which some clever dick will attach in that neat way that they do), when does a song become a traditional song? How old or how popular does it have to be? Some would say that 'She moved through the fair' is trad. but it's fairly recent, 'My Laggan Love' and 'Fiddler's Green' are also younger than they seem.... (Incidentally, it's also amusing that when I posted this, the adverts below were for, respectively 'Endangered Species' and 'Brain Tumour patients'.... does this mean that Trad is endangered and songwriters need their heads examined?) LTS |
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22 Oct 03 - 03:39 AM (#1039465) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: Joe Offer Hey, Liz, I'm the "clever dick" who does most of the crosslinking on threads, and I'm trying to figure out whether I should be insulted or not. I'm also trying to figure out if there's a suitable group to crosslink this with, and I haven't found it... -Joe Offer- [grin] |
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22 Oct 03 - 04:51 AM (#1039492) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: Leadfingers For the most part over here in UK the Singer/Songwriter and Traddie people all get along together,with a surprising number of British Singer/songwriters actually writing songs in the traditional idiom. Bring Us A Barrell is thought by many to be a 'Trad' song which is in fact one of Keith Mardens early efforts.Dave Webber is called a traditional singer,but sings mostly his own songs.Thank God the days are long past when you would not be allowed into some clubs if you played a guitar(NOT Traditional),although concertinas (circa 1841 patent) were permitted. And the clubs that are called Traditional still book a lot of Contemporary Singer/Songwriters. |
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22 Oct 03 - 07:55 AM (#1039568) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: black walnut Joe's made me realize that it's not just the festival organizers, but also the performers themselves who are responsible to include trad. in their repertoire. Some already do that - for instance I love it when David Francey sings an old Scottish tune. If more singer-songwriters did that, it would raise the profile of trad., and maybe nudge the audience to give the more thoroughly trad. artists a listen. A very closely related issue, I believe, is the demise of the instrumental musician at our festivals. I'm talking about the ones who play an instrument extraordinarily well, but don't sing. One used to be able to go to more instrumental workshops, of various shapes and sizes, and I dare say most of what was played was trad. If we can't make a distinction between trad. and singer-songwriter, we won't be able to talk about the music that is missing in the festivals. It used to be there. Great folk performers are being shut out. It's very sad, and it's a problem. I'm concerned. ~b.w. |
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22 Oct 03 - 08:03 AM (#1039571) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: GUEST,JOHN OF ELSIE`S BAND |
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22 Oct 03 - 08:12 AM (#1039581) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: GUEST,JIOHN OF ELSIES`S BAND Joe, Even those songs that we enjoy singing together and we refer to as traditional were originally the work of some individual expressing his thoughts, ideas or opinions. We who write songs nowadays are just continuing in the same vein and, who knows, maybe a long way in the future some of our work will find its way into the trad. pool. |
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22 Oct 03 - 08:39 AM (#1039594) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: VIN I agree with the view that all songs/tunes were once written by someone and at the time they were contemporary. Its already happening that many songs/tunes written by such people as Ewan McColl, Bob Dylan, Keith Hancock, Tom Paxton, Ian Campbell, Christy Moore, Cyril Tawney &c are being passed on from generation to generation and, therfor, in that sense are becoming traditional at least on the 'folk scene'. Can't for the life of me understand purists?' who can only listen to traditional music or 'contempories' who can't stand trad. whether here in England or elswhere. The best club/festivals, in my opinion, are those that combime both otherwise i reckon you're missing out on a helluva lot! But then each to there own. |
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22 Oct 03 - 08:55 AM (#1039602) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: JedMarum It seems in this thread, we're all in agreement about a 'mix' being important - but as performers who write new and sing old too - we find we are not welcome at many venues. It ain't the listeners, it's the organizer/booking folks. The venue that I metioned above, that got pissed off because I played some songs I didn't write - I received a long, standing ovation from the crowd. They loved it - but the folks running the venue didn't. Music listeners always respond to the mix. I don't know how, as a song writer I could sing my songs without using the backdrop of trad music, or even songs from other writers. For me the mix is absolutely necessary. For some venues, it is one or the other (so I don't fit). That, I think is the nub of the discussion. |
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22 Oct 03 - 09:04 AM (#1039610) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: GUEST,John Hardly Somewhere between Mark Cohen's and Clinton Hammond's remarks are what strikes me as an obvious problem -- Yeah, some "singer/songwriter" once wrote the trad songs -- but he/she also FELT them, experienced them, and the events and situations that inspired them. And as Mr Hammond points out, recitation lacks what is compelling about the best of music currently written. But if I hear one more angry young girl... |
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22 Oct 03 - 09:21 AM (#1039617) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: GUEST One of the trends that I have noticed of late is that many Pubs advertise Trad but really showcase singer songwriters. I have nothing against singer\songwriters but I do find rather a lot of them tediously earnest and not remotely folk at all. I guess it is just a case of buyer beware because there are many singer songwriters who do trad as well. But i see what you all mean. |
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22 Oct 03 - 09:30 AM (#1039623) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: VIN I agree john that the original writers of songs/tunes may have 'FELT them, experienced them, and the events and situations that inspired them', but that does not mean that others later can't feel them, experience them or interpret them with feeling. You don't have to have been at Gallipoli (as Eric Bogle was'nt) to appreciate or be moved by 'the band played waltzing matilda' do you? Think of what Van Gogh must have been feeling when he created his masterworks - it does'tn mean to say future generations can't appreciate them or be moved by 'em. Same thing in classical music with the likes of Mahler or Shostakovich - there are many, many interpretations even though what was going thru the composer's mind at the time was probably very personal. I can still apreciate the music/songs (and hopefully understand the message if there is one) tho! |
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22 Oct 03 - 09:59 AM (#1039643) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: WFDU - Ron Olesko John Hardly - most musicologists would define "traditional" songs as having gone through the folk process,multiple "authors" if you will, that have evolved the songs and tunes. Geographic location and circumstances help the folk process along. Your point though is well taken, but even the "angry young girl" that you mentioned has experienced the feelings and events that she sings about. Unfortunately her songs force the audience into eavesdropping on her therapy sessions. I like to call that catagory "singer-songwhiners". We do have to acknowledge that there is an audience for that type of music. From some of the postings above, it seems that SOME presenters have a tendancy to book ONLY those type of acts. What is that telling us? I personally think that it is a case of a music genre looking for an audience. 20 years ago the title "singer-songwriter" was not used. It only came to be when this type of musician did not like to be called "folk". Before commercial radio went corporate, these type of acts would have found a home on album oriented rock radio. That type of radio has all but disappeared, and the closest format that SEEMS to fit their music is folk. I can't tell you how many CD's I receive that proclaim to be "folk", but I couldn't find it in my heart to play because it doesn't fit the way I format my show. Folk radio, folk festivals, folk clubs. By definition, folk music has always incorporated diverse styles and traditions and for the most part, the singer-songwriter genre evolved from that tradition. I remember trying to arrange an interview with a "singer-songwriter" about 20 years ago. This individual had just switched record labels from Columbia Records to Asylum, and his agent gave me his phone number to set up the interview. I would rather not mention his name, but if you heard his music you would see that his folk roots were showing. He plays guitar, banjo and several of his songs are old folk tunes with new lyrics. He writes with a folk sensibility. When I called him up and mentioned that I host a folk radio program, he told me "I'm not a folksinger" and hung up. I find it interesting that 20 years later this individual, who now releases his music independently, headlines numerous folk festivals and plays the folk circuit. What caused him to re-embrace the community? Simply trying to find an audience. Sorry to drift and ramble, but this topic is more than just festivals. I think much of this shows that slapping labels on music only tends to divide. Most ears will enjoy GOOD music. The best festivals will always be the ones that find room for all types. |
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22 Oct 03 - 10:14 AM (#1039654) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: JedMarum good thoughts Ron. And yes, the best will always find room for both! I believe the best singer/songwriters perform both. I could listen to Bill Staines or Aengus Finnan all night - and they play both (in fact Finnan plays one of mine, what a fine intelligent lad he must be!). So many of the trad performers I've worked or have seen with play both. Brian McNeill is a perfect example. He has a true love for trad, is a well versed folklorist and musician - and if you didn't hear him make the introductions, you couldn't always tell what was odl and what was new. That is true respect and love for the tradition - and excellent contribution to the tradition. Likewise Ed Miller - known as a fine singer of trad and contemporary Scottish folk, but writes some (or co-writes) in the style of the trad. I have to admit I the songwhiners (good term) get under my skin pretty quick - but I realize that I am in the minority. On the other hand, I am certain that audiences generally respond to good music and don't care so much about it's origins. |
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22 Oct 03 - 10:25 AM (#1039670) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: Mark Ross "It is not for the winemaker to decide whether the the juice of the grape will be wine or vinegar. That is for time to decide." Utah Phillips |
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22 Oct 03 - 10:33 AM (#1039681) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: GUEST,Arnie Well, my previous post was about a noticable and gradual shift amongst Ontario festivals to cater to mainly singer/songwriter performances. Those performers I must say for the most part are very talented, creative and gifted writers and musicians who are really good at what they do, I like many of them - some better than others, and they seem to be very marketable to young audiences. (Of course every listener has their tastes). I not expressing this as some sort of conflict between trad and songwriter - it's the lack of interest especially amongst the organisers in having trad music events at the festivals that is concerning. I used to look up to with awe at the older trad musicians I heard at festivals which gave me inspiration to follow up on their music and investigate more about it. I've taken some of that music with me in what I play now - I owe a great deal to those festivals and clubs that hired them. Mitch Podolak (former director of Winnipeg folk festival) in interviewing The Friends of Fiddler's Green last week said that the style of singing that they do is now completely absent from western Canadian festivals, and asked them what they thought of that and what their contibution has been to the music scene. I was a little shocked when Mitch said that - to think that English chorus harmony singing is a thing of the past in western Canada shows where our cultural diversity may be headed. But it's not just that style of trad that is absent - it's others as well. There will be a new generation that won't be exposed to this music at all at the festivals in the summer, and they'll maybe, possibly discover it by chance some day on recordings or somewhere else. Arnie |
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22 Oct 03 - 10:45 AM (#1039685) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: WFDU - Ron Olesko "There will be a new generation that won't be exposed to this music at all at the festivals in the summer, and they'll maybe, possibly discover it by chance some day on recordings or somewhere else." Arnie, I'm more hopeful than that. If we look back at the "folk revival", we can see that much of this music we call "traditional" was really ignored by the public at large during the early part of the 20th century. The work of dedicated musicologists was only in the realm of academia until about the 1940's when others took up "the cause". English harmony chorus singing IS a thing of the past,as is shanty singing, square dancing and other forms of the folk tradition - but it is kept alive by people who have developed a keen interest. That interest will continue, but there needs to be a "spark" of some sort for it to ignite in a larger fashion. I'm not sure if there will be another folk revival to match the one that peaked in the 1960's, but the interest will remain. The issue comes back to presenters who have the foresight or know how to expose others to it. It also comes back to performers who know how to do the same. The bottom line is that we are talking about commercial acceptance here, not the lineage of folk music itself. |
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22 Oct 03 - 12:19 PM (#1039740) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: GUEST,JohnB I am particularly amused that a thread by Ontarians complaining about the lack of Traditional Folk Music would not have mentioned the "Millrace Festival of TRADITIONAL Folk Music" which has been running for 11 years. It runs the Saturday of the August Bank Holiday weekend and is also a FREE Festival. Brad McEwen the Organizer and Musical Director also runs TRAD sessions in Cambridge Ontario, on a Bi-weekly basis from Sept to May each year. Another place not mentioned is the Tranzac club in Toronto. I drove 1 1/4 hours each way to hear Martin Carthy last Sunday night, apart from Hamlet does it get any more Trad than that. He also appeared in London Ont. The Flying Cloud frequently has top of the line traditional acts there. In defence of Eaglewood, they had Enoch Kent on their lineup this year. Who knows which songs Enoch wrote himself or which are trad, when he sings them they all sound trad because he writes in a Trad style. They also Featured Washington, Whiteley and Scarlett not what I would call "Singer Songwriters" Now, is it that we are looking in different places for traditional material because we are looking for material from different traditions? I do agree BTW that we need More "Traditional" music of ALL traditions. JohnB |
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22 Oct 03 - 12:40 PM (#1039745) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: DebC This is a very interesting thread. As a singer who sings all kinds of stuff (mostly folk, but I have been known to wander into other genres as well) I am finding it hard to get booked into places because I don't write my own material. Since I am classified as "folk" and I don't write, it is automatically assumed that I must be a traditional singer. Then folks are surprised when half of my set is comprised of composed songs from the last 30 years or so. I hasd an interesting experience on my last tour: I had many people from the audiences telling me that they were so glad that I wasn't a singer/songwriter. Yet, I have many singer/songwriter friends who say that term can be poison for them as well. It's all about labels, I suppose. Now, I just tell people I am a singer of good songs and let them figure it out. And Ron Olesko: get back to work! :-) Debra Cowan |
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22 Oct 03 - 12:46 PM (#1039750) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: alanabit My intended post of last night somehow did not make it here. I like nearly everything which has been written since then. The title of this thread looked singularly unpromising to me at the time. As a songwriter I see myself very much as a part of the tradition. I travel, I meet people, I listen to their stories and I try to retell them. I love Ron's term "singer-songwhiners". (You shall have to copyright that one quickly, because it could be with us for some time!) In a way they are the antithesis of what writers like Jed Marum and Rick Fielding do so well, which is to retell history. There are not many old songs which I sing well although I use a couple which I think I can make sense of. On the other hand, when I write, most of the tools which I use have long since been discovered. In that sense, the traditional songs provide the templates for what I am doing. I want to hear a lot more old songs which are good songs. It matters nothing to me whether a song is old or new. It matters whether the song is good or bad. I think that is the only distinction which most people care about. |
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22 Oct 03 - 01:18 PM (#1039774) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: Midchuck I don't know how it is in other countries, but I think part of the problem in the US is that music royalties on live performances are charged against the venue, since of course there's simply no way of following every performer around to see what songs, the rights to which are owned by other people, the performer performs at each gig. Any venue that has music for the public, live or recorded, has to pay license fees to ASCAP and BMI, or at least is supposed to, based on the seating capacity of the venue, I think. (And, as I understand it, those royalties are disbursed to the songwriters on the basis of the amount of radio play, not live performances. So if you're a songwriter who has written songs that are getting sung by every would-be folksinger in every bar in the country, but are not getting played on the radio, other people get your money.) So if a small venue hires as entertainment a singer-songwriter who does his/her own material, exclusively, they can refuse to pay license fees on the basis that the performer owns the rights to all the material that's being performed, and has waived royalties in consideration of getting paid to perform. At least that's the way I understand it. I know that some venues will only hire singer songwriters that do only their own material, and I think that's the logic involved. I've been wrong before, once or twice in the far dead past. The interesting thing is that the same scam should work if the singer did all traditional, public domain stuff, or a mixture of his/her own songs and P D material. But I guess it doesn't. Of course so many figpuckers have copyrighted traditional songs that it's hard to tell what's PD anyway. Peter. |
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22 Oct 03 - 01:42 PM (#1039789) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: black walnut Just for the record, I don't want anyone to ever think that I don't love singer-songwriters. I do. I love most of them. And I write lots of songs myself. It's the downward spiral I'm sensing that has me concerned, and it obviously has Arnie concerned as well. Yes, JohnB, there are LITTLE festivals in Ontario that promote traditional music, including Millrace and Octoberfolk, and there is the Tottenham Bluegrass festival, but there are a lot more festivals, and bigger ones, in this province (and in the OCFF) than these. I truly believe that if a festival is going to be part of the OCFF, it should include and promote trad. as well as singer-songwriters. ~b.w. |
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22 Oct 03 - 01:45 PM (#1039794) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: treewind I'm used to using the term "snigger-snogwriters" but the "whiners" bit is far more descriptive of a particularly prevalent type of contemporary song (and singing style). Another good quote I've seen is "songs in the key of I". I think that's significant - writing songs in the first person requires a lot of skill and awareness not to slide into a pit of sentimental self-indulgence. Hi Debra - I think of your repertoire (what little I know of it) as half traditional songs... it's that half-full/half-empty thing! In theory you ought to do well, as instead of writing your own songs you are free to choose the best of the contemporary repertoire. It's the beginning of that filtering process in the Viking proverb mentioned earlier - "only good swords become old swords". Ron Olesko's remark about a music genre looking for an audience rings a bell too. I've been to folk clubs full of singer-songwriter-guitarists where I'm convinced that the only reason why they were all there was to sing their stuff: none of them was interested in hearing the others. A clue to this was the number who left after they'd done their bit.... I don't think of them as folk singers. Some of them are obviously wannabe pop stars - not the same thing at all. Anahata |
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22 Oct 03 - 01:46 PM (#1039795) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: McGrath of Harlow Reading that last post by Midchuck, I started speculating whether there are places where they insist on having a songlist to look over before they allow singers to perform? In case they sing someone else's song. This whole idea of treating songs simply as property really does poison the waterhole. People up the thread have been saying that all traditional songs started off being made up by someone - but that's only true in the sense that they start of with something that someone made up, but that's probably not going to be what came down to us. In the process of being passed along, songs change. People mishear lines and sing them differently, and they forget verses and cobble together a half-remembered replacement. You end up with different versions. And then someone mixes together different versions... That is the process by which some great songs have been created. Treating songs simply as property is liable to get in the way of that happening. |
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22 Oct 03 - 01:54 PM (#1039799) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Anahata & Alanabit (& anyone else) - feel free to use "singer-songwhiner". I wouldn't copyright it, I prefer to have it part of the folk tradition!!! :) (Just remember where you heard it!!) I too echo what Blackwalnut said - I love singer songwriters (as opposed to singer-songwhiners!) I also love traditional music and source singers. The fact is, I don't have to make a choice of "one or the other". Festivals should be the same way. Mark Ross quoted Utah Phillips. I remember hearing Utah say something to the effect that once a song is written and sung for an audience, it belongs to all of us. Of course an artist should be recognized and compensated for their work, but his point is well taken. I will go back to work now! Thanks Debra!! :) |
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22 Oct 03 - 02:16 PM (#1039808) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: GUEST,Arnie Fortunately in and around Toronto there are good opportunities to get involved to hear and play different forms of tradtional music on a regular basis. Certainly in the folk music clubs - Flying Cloud/Tranzac Club, Acoustic Harvest, Hugh's Room have their share, and there is quite a bit of Irish, bluegrass, and some country dances to be had in other venues. There are a few song circles and jam sessions around as well. Yes Millrace and Goderich Celtic College have traditional music as their main agenda at their festivals, and specialised fiddle/stepdance events (lets face it - these are unique), but most other Ontario Folk festivals do not. They may have some acts on their rosters that are trad or trad based, but for the most part it looks as if those acts are becoming less frequent every year especially at the bigger festivals where you would think there would be room for a lot of diversity. |
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22 Oct 03 - 02:27 PM (#1039814) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: DebC I think one thing that is happening is that there are many venues and festivals that don't want to take risks any more. As a friend of mine said "Back in the day if you trusted the taste of a concert promoter, you'd just go to the show even if you hadn't ever heard of the singer." I am ETERNALLY grateful to the venues that did book me on this last tour as I was relatively unknown to them until now. I am also grateful to DJs like Ron O and others who play my music. Here in Boston, I do see the same singer/songwriters recycled year after year in the coffeehouses. It is really sad to me that some of these presenters will not make the effort to try to hear anyone different or new. I do understand the "butts (or bums for you UK'ers) in seats" reasoning, but there are very successful venues and festivals who DO take chances on new or unknown artists and do quite well. Ron mentioned New Bedford Summerfest, (a festival that I have performed in) as a wonderful example of how you can put Jeff Davis and Ellis Paul on the same stage and it works! Anahata-one of the things I definitely never run out of is material. It is a filtering process: I have very high standards when choosing material. I have had a number of songwriters send their stuff to me, yet, unfortunately, the material for whatever reason is not of high enough quality for me to want to use it. Midchuck-as far as the PRO situation with venues goes, I am not about to enter into THAT fray, but there are many complicated issues surrounding the idea of venues booking ONLY performers of original material, etc., and much of the talk that is circulating around that is full of misconceptions. There are some great discussions on the subject at the Folk Alliance Archives . Put PRO in the search thingy and see what comes up. I guess if I could have a perfect world in folk music, I would want all the different types of folk to be acknolwedged. It is sad to me that quality musicans are excluded from venues and festivals due to the labels that are placed on them. We are folk whether we perform traditional or composed material and we should all learn to appreciate one another. Deb Cowan |
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22 Oct 03 - 02:32 PM (#1039820) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: black walnut It's great to read all of the comments on this thread, but sometimes I think that we get into such a tangle about the words Traditional and Singer-Songwriter. The issue here isn't whether somebody wrote it or not. Would it be useful to approach this discussion using the terms OLDER folk music and NEWER folk music? If we can use those words, can we then say that some of us are seeing far more NEW folk music at Ontario Folk Festivals than we are seeing OLD folk music, and that we'd like to see more of a balance between the two once again? One of my favourite performers right now is someone who played at Mariposa (a last-minute invitation, as I recall) this summer - Jim Moray. He's a Brit who takes old ballads and performs them in a very young, fresh way. Some would say his CD "Sweet England' is over-produced', but I think the production supports the ballad. The story is always central to the song, and the production supports the song. When I heard him live, he created the same intense passion for the stories he was singing, every single time (even with serious jet lag!). His style was accessible, and skillfully done, and it was absolutely wonderful to have a ballad singer at the Mariposa Folk Festival. The audience loved him. ~b.w. |
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22 Oct 03 - 02:40 PM (#1039822) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: Herga Kitty Interesting to read this - I went to an interview with Eileen McGann at Whitby (UK) in August this year, and she mentioned the increasing difficulty of getting gigs (even though she sings both trad and her own songs) and the tendency of what used to be folk festivals to book acts that are big crowd pullers but not really folk. Kitty |
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22 Oct 03 - 02:44 PM (#1039826) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: greg stephens I wonder why it is historically that we have a thread here debating trad v singer/song-writer. If you wind the clock back 50 years, and look at the British or American folk revival. you would see a lot of people in folk clubs etc who shared an interest in folk music. They also, naturally, had interests in other genres ofmusic, which would also get the odd airing at the clubs. So mixed with the folk music you would get the occasional bit of barber shop,jazz, fiddlers playing Flight of the Bumble Bee,rock'n'roll, self-penned songs etc etc. Finer and dandy. OK, fast forward to now. Those occasional people trying out the odd song they've written have now become so important numerically that, judging by this thread, they have actually driven out the folk music from the festivals. But why them? Why not the barbershop enthusiasts? Why didnt punk rock take over folk festivals? Or flamenco guitarists? Gregorian chant? Intriguing, eh? |
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22 Oct 03 - 02:46 PM (#1039829) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: black walnut Agreed, Kitty. I am a HUGE, MEGA, make that SUPERMEGA Bruce Cockburn fan, but I'm not sure that he should have been the headliner at Mariposa FOLK festival this year. ~b.w. |
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22 Oct 03 - 02:54 PM (#1039834) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Greg, the examples you gave are very specific musical styles. Folk music encompasses a variety of styles under it's umbrella. I do think that you will find a bit of barber shop, jazz, etc being booked in venues today, but they are more of a novelty - just as they were 50 years ago. "Rock'n'roll" has similar issues. Justin Timberlake was booked to open for the Rolling Stones in Toronto. Rock, pop, or ??? Would you book a punk band on a bill with Lynard Skynard? Folk music is a bit more accepting, and I don't think the trad. vs. singer-songwriter issue that we are discussing reflects the scene as a whole. Yes, there are numerous festivals that cater to only one style of "folk" music, but I question how long they will last. As to Black Walnut's suggestion that we label it "old" and "new" - that will never fly. I can't imagine any performer would willingly accept the term "old folksinger". Folk music is SUPPOSEDLY timeless. |
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22 Oct 03 - 03:01 PM (#1039841) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: greg stephens Ron: yes they were indeed novelties at the folk clubs. My point was that so was the singer/song-writing at the time. You'ld go for the folk music, but you might try out a song you'ld written or a bit of Bach or something for an occasional novelty. But why did ONE of those novelties grow and grow and come to dominate parts of the scene, even apparently driving out the music that started the festivals in the first place, according to some posters? |
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22 Oct 03 - 03:06 PM (#1039844) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: black walnut Hey, Ron, my nearly 50th birthday is tomorrow. I feel like an old folksinger, and proud of it! ~b.w. |
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22 Oct 03 - 03:24 PM (#1039858) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Good point Greg. Your last question is very interesting. I'm not sure if "singer-songwriters" were ever a "novelty", but I look back at festivals such as Newport or Philadelphia, and while traditional music had a much bigger representation back in the early days, I think singer-songwriters were always important. Perhaps the issue is how we define "folksinger". For years, Tom Paxton, Phil Ochs, and Bob Dylan were called "folksingers". Even the Weaver's sang a great portion of material from what we would today label as "singer-songwriters". |
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22 Oct 03 - 03:26 PM (#1039860) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: Jerry Rasmussen Singer song-whiners is a cute name. Would you call Bill Staines a singer-songwhiner? Or Gordon Bok? Why is it that people so grossly ove-generalize songwriters as being navel-gazers or whiners? I guess it beats thinking. Is Sy Kahn a navel-gazer or whiner? Or Stan Rogers? There are so many recently written great songs that are neither navel-gazing or whining that it's just intellectual laziness to characterize all songwiters that way. Jerry .. neither whining nor navel-gazing |
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22 Oct 03 - 03:39 PM (#1039867) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: WFDU - Ron Olesko No Jerry, I would not catagorize ANY of the individuals you mentioned as singer-songwhiners. Please read my post carefully. I did not generalize as you are saying. I believe I was making a distinction and you may have missed my point. I was not being "intellectually lazy" and I thought I was clear. I guess not. |
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22 Oct 03 - 03:58 PM (#1039875) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: greg stephens Jerry, don't get your knickers in a twist. I think "singer song-whiners" is pretty good. Obviously you and me and anyone else can list a few zappy, amusing, hard-hitting, wonderful etc etc song-writers: but a glance round the scene does reveal a large faintly pulsating mass of songwriters whose main modus operandi is mixing self-absorption with moaning about things. And while it's a free country and I defend anybody's write to self-expression, I also defend my own right to do something else with my time,rather than listening. |
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22 Oct 03 - 04:12 PM (#1039885) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: Mooh There were a couple of acts at this year's aforementioned OCFF conference which wouldn't get booked at a folk festival if I had anything to do with the booking, not because they weren't good, but because they weren't folk, IMHO. I listened, and decided that in a folk festival atmosphere I would hope to find another act on another stage, and leave the bitching about it to others. I do find incessant singing-your-diary songwriting a little irritating, but some of those writers actually mature in time. This too was evident at the OCFF conference. In my humble little local celtic roots (note: "roots") festival the definition of folk narrows somewhat compared to perhaps Mariposa, but only because the artistic direction has chosen that emphasis. Drop "celtic" or "roots" from the title and you get a different animal altogether. It's a judgement call on the part of the artistic directors whether something is traditional, celtic, roots, or singer-songwriter, and whether the act actually performs as expected. Our own AD has a band which has strayed from celtic once or twice but stayed roughly within the roots definition with "in the tradition" singer-songwriting. In any event the song arrangements are fresh and hopefully unusual whether they be new or old songs. However, there is a shrinking of trad music presenters it seems, especially outside the urban centres. Sure there's Ottawa, Goderich, and Cambridge sustained by creative and insightful booking, but others like Kincardine Scottish, Collingwood, and Windsor suffer from uninformed management more than a lack of audience interest. There is a lot more to presenting trad music than finding pounding bass and drums, or droning pub songs, or quasi-trad songwriting. Lunasa and Crucible are two which would meet my criteria. To answer the original question about creative interplay between trad and singer-songwriters, yes it can happen. You can have both and still please the audience, or you can present an act which combines the two (Natalie MacMaster, Simon Mayor & Hilary James, Bobby Watt, Dougie Maclean, Barra MacNeils, Tannahill Weavers, J.P. Cormier, etc). I believe there are acts around to fit the bill but that ADs are less than imaginative about booking, whether by bias, budget, or the false security of playing it safe. But, and it's a big but, we are in the midst of an explosion of both singer-songwriters and recording availability. Everyone with a guitar and a voice is recording songs, and many are marketing them themslves. There's a glut and festivals are reflecting that reality. Too bad really that it doesn't push the current tripe off the radio, but there it is. I would have appreciated more trad at the OCFF, but maybe what goes around comes around. Peace, Mooh. |
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22 Oct 03 - 05:31 PM (#1039917) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: Jerry Rasmussen I stand corrected, Ron: my apologies. I guess I wasn't reacting to your use of the term, but to generalities that I've heard from some traddies over the years that tend to dismiss songwriters as navel-gazers. There certainly are navel-gazers and song whiners, but they don't last very long... it seems to be a stage that most songwriters go through. I went through a profound stage, when I though I was wise beyond my ears, but fortunately, it didn't last long. Learning a craft, as songwriting is, usually starts out with expressing what we know best... ourselves. That's probably why you hear so many young songwriters writing self-centered songs, with nary a trace of a sense of humor. Unless someone quickly grows out of that stage, you won't hear them five years later, because most people have a limited tolerance for that kind of music (myself included,) and they won't find a place to sing. Hopefully, they'll discover how limiting we all are as a subject of songs. I've also got my knickers in a twist when someone said, why is it that people who sing traditional folk music are such terrible singers? Anyway, Ron, I have the greatest respect for you and your taste and love of folk music... sorry I came on so strong.. I know that we are brothers in folk music. I wasn't speaking for myself or my own music, but all the wonderful songwriters we BOTH love and admire. Jerry |
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22 Oct 03 - 06:01 PM (#1039932) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: McGrath of Harlow Would "I live not where I love" count as a navel-gazing song is someone came out with it new today? And if not, why not? Or much of Jacques Brel? |
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22 Oct 03 - 06:29 PM (#1039942) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: John Hardly It's a subtle difference to be sure, but it seems to me that one difference between today's whinefest/angry-young-man-fest is the object of the whining -- and, perhaps, today's less clever use of language in the conveyance of what few "bigger themes" there are. The themes of yesteryear seemed to be more universal -- the "I" and "me" of yesterday's songwriter were actually, in effect, an "everyman" -- and the struggles portrayed, whether "big theme" or mundane, were the struggles of us all. Today's "I" and "Me" are actually, literally that. And I find myself not relating. Of course, the ultimate unfairness in my observation is that we currently only listen to the best of yesteryear, while today's writing -- good and bad -- is happening around us. |
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22 Oct 03 - 06:38 PM (#1039944) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: Herga Kitty Kevin McG No - because the first line of "I live not where I love" appeals, in terms, to everyone who has shared the experience described, to join in and assist. Kitty |
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22 Oct 03 - 06:45 PM (#1039947) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: Herga Kitty Well, perhaps not everyone, just all maids who live at a distance, but navel-gazers don't even appeal that far. Kitty |
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22 Oct 03 - 06:49 PM (#1039948) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Thanks Jerry! I think we are both on the same wavelength. I don't believe in generalities or stereotypes and I probably wasn't as clear as I should have been with the term. I do think it is fair to offer criticism. I came up with that phrase a few years ago after listening to a number of singer-songwriters who began to sound the same. Introspective beyond the point of being accessible to others, at least in my opinion. If you look at the playlist of my show, you will see numerous artists who would be labeled as singer-songwriters as well as traditional musicians. I use the term, largely in jest, but as a way to critique someone who probably could write a better song. It is not a generalization by any means. With that said, I would have to answer McGrath's question that yes, it probably would be considered a naval-gazing song BUT, that doesn't mean it is would be dismissed. There are hundreds of introspective songs that I love that I would not call "singer-songwhiney". A GOOD introspective naval-gazing song would give the listener something back. Perhaps it would be some sort of self-discovery that the listener would find a common bond with, or it might help create an understanding of other's problems. Those are from the minds of singer-songwriters. The BAD introspective naval-gazing song usually confuses the listener because the situation is so foreign and self-serving that it helps no one but the singer. It is the usual "oh woe is me" and all my cliched troubles. It is also an artist who does not offer a unique perspective or sound, but rather tries too hard and too unsuccessfully to sound like someone else. There is nothing wrong with being angry or introspective. I think Pete Morton has some great songs in that vein. Again, I'm sorry for drifting this from the original topic. It does come back to my original statement that we need variety and diversity to make for interesting festivals, performances, CD's, etc. |
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22 Oct 03 - 07:02 PM (#1039959) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: lamarca I think that the ability to make recordings in a small studio and (fairly) cheaply produce your own CD has contributed to the increase in singer-songwriter bookings recently. Not that I'm yearning for the days when a musician had to impress one of a few recording labels in order to be heard at all, but I think a lot of people record their music today (whether original or traditional) without a lot of quality control. Festival producers, folk DJs, folk club bookers, etc, are simply deluged with an incredible number of CDs from hopeful artists that are the musical equivalent of Snoopy's "It was a dark and a stormy night..." unsolicited manuscripts. Each week, we listen to Mary Cliff's folk music radio program "Traditions" here in DC, and wonder from what "tradition" the bulk of the music she's playing comes - much of it by solo songwriters with backup rock bands doing completely original songs to tunes that have no link to any roots music or traditions that we can discern. But Mary is just playing CDs by the performers who are being booked by the local clubs, and CDs she's received in the mail, and CDs handed out by performers at the Folk Alliance. She, like most of the booking agents (many of whom are unpaid volunteers), can't possibly listen to and screen all of the material that's exploded onto the scene. Even if self-produced, a lot of the original "songwhiners" have highly produced, slickly packaged recordings of the sort that used to have an airplay niche on "Alternative Rock" or "Album Oriented" FM radio, before Clear-Channel Communications began to buy up every radio station in the country and have nationally centralized playlists. What's the difference between Jewel and a 30-something blond songwriter with a plugged-in Ovation, a backup band and a folder full of personal angst songs? Except for a major label recording contract, not much - but one is called "Pop" and gets major airplay, and the other is handing out her CDs to people in a hotel hallway at the latest Folk Alliance conference. A solo singer who combines traditional and recently written material may not sound "professional" to an Artistic Director who is more used to the flood of John Hiatt sound-alikes with their backup rock bands, or the latest Irish supergroup with mile-a-minute electric jigs and reels. Add to this the inevitable crop of traditional song recordings by well-meaning amateurs with limited self-awareness of their own musical abilities, and it's no wonder bookers tend to stick to the familiar, tried-and-true crowd pleasers (and their imitators) who combine flashy instrumental work and lyrics that a younger, free-spending demographic raised on Jewel, Joan Osborne, Julian Lennon, etc, can relate to. As Theodore Sturgeon once said "99% of everything is crap" - and traditional or contemporary, there are a heck of a lot more recordings by performers of varying levels of talent to wade through when deciding who to book and who to reject... |
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22 Oct 03 - 07:05 PM (#1039962) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: Jerry Rasmussen One of the things that I enjoy so much about Mudcat (which others may hate) is that there IS a wide-ranging discussion of music... not just folk, blues and gospel, but country and even pop songs... We may be odd bedfellows, but we're all in here together.. Jerry |
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22 Oct 03 - 07:07 PM (#1039964) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: Herga Kitty Naval gazing opens up a whole new perspective - see the Trafalgar thread. |
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22 Oct 03 - 07:08 PM (#1039966) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: lamarca There were nine in the bed, And the little one said, "Roll over..." |
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22 Oct 03 - 07:19 PM (#1039977) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: McGrath of Harlow Agreed then. It is possible to write a good song about pretty well anything. Including navels. And it is possible to write a bad song about pretty well anything. What matters isn't what category a song falls into, but whether it works as a song. The advantage old songs have over new songs is that there is normally noone around who has a particular reason to sing an old song that is not much cop. To get back to the track of the thread, though - if festival organisers are ignoring and excluding music that ought to have a place, the answer is to give it a place, by organising fringe festivals that fills the gap. In my experience that seems to happen. Sometimes the fringe gets bigger than the original festival. Sidmouth started out as a dance festival, and the singing was very much of a fringe. Festivals that are all concerts get surrounded by sessions, by singarounds, by mini-concerts. As Joe Hill said "Don't mourn. Organise." |
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22 Oct 03 - 07:26 PM (#1039981) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: WFDU - Ron Olesko "...that is not much cop. " I have not heard that phrase before. Could you explain it to me please? Good points McGrath. I went to the "Newport" folk festival, or rather the revived version that exists today. The year I went they had one main stage, a small "side" stage by the gate that only had music before the main stage opened, no workshops, and very little traditional music. Hardly the Newport Folk Festival of legend! All festivals evolve, but when they become nothing put reasons to make money there is a big problem. |
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22 Oct 03 - 07:54 PM (#1040007) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: Burke This has been interesting, but I don't see my complaint mentioned. In my opinion too many of the people writing music today don't write good tunes. I don't know what the words are because I can't stand listening to the music long enough to pay attention. I first noticed this when I signed up to an early e-mail list devoted to 'folk music.' I feel like I live in a backwater & wanted a source of who to listen to apart from my annual trip to Old Songs. Lots of performers were discussed as being really hot. Every time I actually got hold of a recording of these folks, I found I could not listen to it. Then I reread the charter (or whatever) for the list & saw that it was intended to be discussion about singer songwriters. It was really only after this that I started making a distinction. One of the first Real Audio feeds I found was the 'folk' program out of Kent State. I haven't listened in a long time & don't know if it's still on. It seemed to be mostly singer/songwriters & the list of singers I don't care about grew. I did discover a couple that I really liked as well. Somewhere in all this I actually caught some of these singer/songwriters in a life show. In a live venue I sometimes found them very entertaining. They were funny, good guitar players & did have good things to say in their songs. It was just that there was no strong tune & taking a CD home from the performance was a waste of money. I really think some are almost more performance artists. I suspect there are people I've heard on the Web & disliked that I may very well enjoy live. A few years ago I attended Clearwater, Old Songs and Falcon Ridge just a couple of weeks apart. I had a really good time at all of them. It's only at Old Songs that I was exposed to anyone who's recordings I wanted to own. I knew when I went that Falcon Ridge was more SS than traditional. I went wanting to give them a good try. It was the bands I liked most and just in general what went on at the workshop stage. I think it was on the shuttle to Clearwater that I came to understand part of my disconnect. I told another passenger that I wanted songs that had choruses or that I could learn to sing along with. This other passenger told me he likes message songs & doesn't even notice the music. I think maybe that as people are more passive in their music consumption, especially if they don't sing, the importance of a good tune just becomes a whole lot less. There's a coffeehouse series locally that books about 20 shows a year. The person who does the booking has taste that matches mine well enough that I have seldom been disappointed. I'll often go just based on the ad. I consistently enjoy Old Songs. There's a venue farther away that I only attend when I already know the performer. |
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22 Oct 03 - 08:15 PM (#1040024) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: McGrath of Harlow "Not much cop" - means useless, disapointing. It's a very commonly used expression in England. No idea where it comes from. Somebody round here will probably come up with an answer. (I tried an online dictionary of slang but it didn't have it.) ... True, choruses are fun - but any number of wonderful traditional songs don't have any chorus. I suppose if you've heard them often enough you can sing along with them (though it's best to be careful about that, it's not always welcome to the singer or the other listeners). "...maybe as people are more passive in their music consumption, especially if they don't sing, the importance of a good tune just becomes a whole lot less. I'd have thought it might work the other way round. |
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22 Oct 03 - 08:29 PM (#1040032) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: Herga Kitty Chambers Dictionary - "cop" (as a noun) "a capture or arrest(as in the phrase "a fair cop"); a catch (as in the phrase not much cop - of little value, not worth much".) |
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22 Oct 03 - 08:44 PM (#1040037) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: Burke I discovered 'folk' as a genre to find the music I like when I attended my first folk festival (not Old Songs). What grabbed me was all the people who were saying, "And the chorus goes." Looking back I realized that the line up was soloists who encourage participation like Gordon Bok, Bill Staines & Michael Cooney, some traditional English, Irish bands, and a little Cajun. As I've gone along I've discovered other aspects of tradional music like ballads that one would not sing along on. My main activity, however, is still group singing. All the places I go regularly have enough participation that a singer who objected would be something of a miss match. |
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23 Oct 03 - 01:22 AM (#1040121) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: Joybell More and more I'm finding myself listening to singers with whom I completely agree. The causes they sing about are the same ones I'm willing to march for, to write letters to the papers about, to do anything in my power to support. And they are great people - most of them - BUT the poetry is gone from the lyrics, the good melodies are just not there - most of the singer-songwriter songs just don't make it for me. Maybe I'm just an old crank but I haven't yet tired of the old songs. |
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23 Oct 03 - 08:56 AM (#1040305) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: GUEST,Russ I've certainly enjoyed this thread but I must confess that I haven't managed to figured out what "traditional" means in its context. No such problems with (the dreaeded) "singer/songwriter". Anyway, I know of lots of festivals where the performers are predominantly what I think of as "traditional." They are all in the southeastern US. Just a few examples off the top of my head: WV State Folk Festival (Glenville WV) Vandalia Gathering (Charleston WV) Seedtime on the Cumberland (Whitesville KY), Mount Airy Bluegrass and Old-Time Fiddlers' Convention (Mount Airy NC), etc. Whether the other participants in this thread would agree that performers like Lester McCumbers (WV) and Lee Sexton (KY) are traditional, I can assure you that they are NOT singer/songwriters. I can also guaranteee that you won't run into many singer/songwriters at these events. As for the singer/songwriter plague, it seems to me that no matter what the attitudes and motives were in the beginning, the people who now run and book the sorts of festivals referred to in this thread got trapped in the sort of CEO mentality that thinks that growth is essential, growth is good, and bigger is better. Trouble is, big festivals require big audiences. Big audiences require big names. Traditional musicians, almost by definition, cannot possibly be big enough these days. People like Ralph Stanley and Natalie McMaster are the perfect exceptions which prove the rule. The point is that these days if you are going to feature traditional music at a festival you seriously have to think outside the box. But big festivals don't reward thinking outside the box. Most people involved in the big festivals either don't remember or never knew that in the "old days" folk music was all about thinking outside the box. In the old days you didn't invite Granny Riddle to your festival because you thought she'd be a big draw. You invited her because her music deserved attention no matter what its commercial potential. A notable exception to the above was this year's National Folklife Festival in DC. The Smithsonian brought in truckloads of truly great truly traditional musicians. |
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23 Oct 03 - 09:17 AM (#1040330) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: black walnut We have house concerts in our home sometimes....we've had Eileen McGann, David Francey. We have 3 more in the works, for Katherine Wheatley, Rick Fines, and Dave Clarke. All of these people write wonderful songs, with fine tunes, and lyrics that move me. I think that here in Canada we have some incredible singer-songwriters and I am thrilled and honoured to call them my friends. They have enriched my life in many ways. It is telling that I only have one trad. artist on the above list. I started this thread, and I am guilty as charged. We are going to have to do some serious thinking about this. We have managed to balance gender and styles of music (Celtic, blues, other) - but haven't addressed the trad - songwriter balance. Talking this out, reading your comments, has definitely influenced me. McGrath, I think you pushed the right buttons. Thank you all. ~b.w. |
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23 Oct 03 - 09:24 AM (#1040335) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: WFDU - Ron Olesko After reading all these threads, it seems that the prevailing theme is "different strokes for different folks". (Sorry Sly!) I'm seeing notes from people who love new songs, people who love songs with chorus singing, songs without instrumentation, diverse cultures, "name" performers, "unknown" performers, and every permutation in between. I think this thread shows the beauty and depth of folk music. Instead of moaning the festivals that no longer program the music we feel appropriate, perhaps we should be throwing more support to the festivals that do. I know it is tough for a musician when they feel the door is shut, but perhaps they are looking in the wrong places. You can't stop evolution. Festivals are run by individuals. These individuals are judged on their performance. Perhaps the best way to vote is to support the festival of your choice. |
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23 Oct 03 - 09:35 AM (#1040343) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: Willie-O bw: in your list of "had Eileen McGann, David Francey. We have 3 more in the works, for Katherine Wheatley, Rick Fines, and Dave Clarke." you have only one trad performer (presuming you mean Eileen)? I beg to differ. Look at where some of those folks are coming from. Rick Fines writes his own songs but has a virtuostic and encyclopaedic understanding of traditional blues guitar. Dave Clarke is really a bluegrass picker par excellence. Francey (my new neighbour whom I haven't yet spoken to) is clearly influenced, lyrically and tunewise, by his Scottish background, and as was mentioned, also sings old songs. (Katherine Wheatley I'll grant you is a contemporary songwriter, but you booked her for the same reason I did--she is very very good.) Ian Robb, I think, made an interesting observation in his Sing Out! column: a lot of folk performers start out performing trad and when they turn professional switch to doing more and more original material. Not too many stay in the same idiom throughout their careers. Nevertheless, their roots are still important influences on the material they choose and how they perform it. I don't think you have anything to apologize for--that's a pretty great lineup you've booked! best W-O |
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23 Oct 03 - 10:06 AM (#1040367) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: Midchuck If we assume that the ranks of "folksingers" consist entirely of (A) strict traditionalist singers, who do nothing that isn't so old that the authorship is unknown (somewhat of a dying breed), and (B) young people who compose long "songs" about their personal unhappiness, usually with no discernable melody, accompanying themselves on guitar by endlessly strumming one or two chords with a different strange tuning that it takes them half an hour to get in to, for each new song (a breed that seems to be proliferating like guppies), and that there's no middle ground, then where do we put Tom Russell Ian Tyson Utah Phillips the late Stan Rogers the late Jim Ringer the late Kate Wolf John Prine the late Steve Goodman etc....? Maybe if none of my favorites are folk singers, I'm not a folk fan at all, and I don't belong on Mudcat... Peter. |
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23 Oct 03 - 10:13 AM (#1040373) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: GUEST,Arnie b.w. It's true that those performers singer/songwriters you've done house concerts for are heavily influenced in traditional music which is evident in their music. You are presenting fine performers and by doing so contributing in a big way to the life of this small music communtity. I consider the presenters, radio hosts, volunteers the heros in this community and without the likes of people like you this music community would be in terrible shape. So - keep up the good work and enthusiam. Carry on. Arnie |
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23 Oct 03 - 10:15 AM (#1040377) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: black walnut Peter, I hope that I've been clear. In my books Trad. performers ARE and Singer-Songwriters CAN both be folk. Some would disagree, but that's where I'm coming from. ~b.w. |
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23 Oct 03 - 10:17 AM (#1040378) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: black walnut Merci Arnie and Willie-O. ~b.w. |
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24 Oct 03 - 12:31 AM (#1040818) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: Joe Offer John of Elsie's Band, I beg forgiveness. I have to admit that most of the songs that I sing and enjoy, are songs that were written in the last 100 years. Much of what would be considered purely traditional is too stuffy for me. What I look for is music that might be called approachable - songs that I can sing. I tend to prefer songs that have been around for a while, with a good number of songs that I know and have made part of my life. When I think "singer-songwriter," I think of somebody who writes songs that only he/she can perform. I can only take that kind of song in small doses. I used to say the same about old ballads, but I've developed a tolerance and understanding for them, and sometimes almost enjoy them. Some people do a great job with ballads, and I can listen to them forever - Judy Cook and DebC are two prime examples. -Joe Offer- |
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24 Oct 03 - 09:30 AM (#1041004) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: GUEST,Russ RANT ==== This thread illustrates perfectly the issue it was ostensibly created to discuss. Though it begins with a note bemoaning the dearth of "traditional" musicians at unnamed festivals, almost none of the contributors actually talk about traditional musicians. The focus is almost entirely on the singer-songwriter side of the equation. The efforts of most of the contributors are attempts to define or redefine or "traditional" in a way that is vague enough to include the contributor's favorite singer-songwriters. If the people who care enough to contribute to this thread don't care enough about traditional musicians to actually talk about them (which is free) why would anybody expect the festival promoters to care enough to present them and the target audience to care enough to pay to see them? It is also a perfect example of a popular approach to dealing with other issues. Rather than deal with the issue, change the definitions. The people I know who care most about traditional musicians don't bother to attend the festivals that don't feature them, much less worry about the balance of their lineups. They know where the traditional musicians are and vote with their dollars. Russ (the grumpy guest) |
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24 Oct 03 - 09:55 AM (#1041018) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Russ, try the decaf before you post!! There is a very good reason why MOST of the contributers have been talking about singer-songwriters. IF the reason traditional musicians are not being booked for festivals is because of singer-songwriters, it stands to reason that the discussion would try to examine why that is happening. Your last paragraph really points out the problem. If the people you know "who care most about traditional music" (are you insinuating that the rest of us don't care that much???) don't bother to attend festivals that don't feature traditional music, then perhaps you creating a very isolated and unfriendly scene. Instead of welcoming and trying to perpetuate, the music gets played in a vacuum. Re-defining traditional music? Perhaps. The 20th century featured a very unique "folk revival" and to ignore the singer-songwriter movement that grew out of it is very wrong. There has always been a knock against many of the collectors who would pick and choose the songs they chose to collect - often to match their own political or moral agendas. Is it right to ignore the living tradition facet of folk music? Of course you should support the festivals that feature traditional music - that is a very good vote. But to deny that singer-songwriters exist and that there is an audience that enjoys that type of music is really looking at the issue with blinders on. I wholeheartedly support and actively persue the perpetuation of traditional music. Keeping an interest and exploration alive is very important. The rewards are many, but that is another discussion. My point is that we can't ignore singer-songwriters and the contributions that are being made. Diversity is something that I feel makes the music interesting. Ron |
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24 Oct 03 - 10:08 AM (#1041027) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: greg stephens Ron Olesko: your comments are interesting,but they seem to contain a whole set of strange assumptions. Well, to make my position clear, I dont deny that singer/songwriters exist, and I dont deny that some of them are writing great songs.What I do wonder is why they have taken over some folk festivals, to the point of excluding the folk music that started the whole business. Of course, you or anyone could counter what I say by saying"Ah, but what they are doing is folk music".Well, people do say that. Some agree,some dont.You can say anything is folk music if it suits your argument. I just think that if anyone was going to take over the folk scene, it would have been more fun if it was Spike Jones imitators, rather than acoustic guitar strumming song writers telling us either how miserable they are, or how they think the old days should have been, brave boys, haul away. |
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24 Oct 03 - 10:08 AM (#1041029) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: alanabit There is not much that I can add to Ron's excellent post, Russ, other than to say that you appear to start from the assumption that your opponents should accept your definition of the word "traditional". If you successfully sever new traditions from old ones, you will effectively demote the old songs into obscurity and irrelevance. I do not want to see that happen - and it is pretty evident that I am not alone on this one. |
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24 Oct 03 - 10:13 AM (#1041032) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: GUEST,Arnie I think it would be important to try to convince and help festival organisers to not overlook the tradtional music component in their selections of artists and workshops. The way to do that is somehow get involved in that process - getting in touch with those artistic directors and voice your requests and offer suggestions - you will find them quite interested in what you have to say. |
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24 Oct 03 - 10:42 AM (#1041054) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Greg, if you've been reading these posts I don't think I've ever said that "anything" is folk music just to suits my "arguement". I wholeheartedly agree that traditional music by definition has a set of criteria that would exclude "authors". I would also argue that the "traditional" folk music that everyone has been missing, really isn't traditional music at all and never was. A strong case can be made that true FOLK music cannot be set down on recordings or performed at festivals. As soon as a microphone and a stage is no longer FOLK music. What is being recorded or peformed is merely an imitation of the song since it is no longer being performed in its natural setting. It is much like going to a zoo and seeing an animal in a cage as opposed to living in the wild. Folk songs and the folk process is a different discussion that shouldn't bog down this thread. The term "folk music" has been altered in the last 50 years or so. People have become used to "watching" folk music instead of making it. Perhaps that is part of the folk process too? I do feel that circumstances of the 20th century have altered the folk process. Technology has created a genre of music and evolved a living tradition. Folk Festivals, at least here in the U.S., have evolved. I too would prefer to see more traditional music showcased. A combination of public acceptance and promoters needs have led to the proliferation of singer-songwriters. I agree with you, you can't just call something folk music and it becomes folk music. I try to look for a thread that links the music to the tradition. The bottom line is that is merely a perception. You have your tastes, I have mine. If everyone spent less time worrying about titles and working to find ways to present what we have accepted as "traditional" music, then I think we would all be happy. |
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24 Oct 03 - 10:49 AM (#1041063) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: GUEST,Russ Ron, Enjoyed your reply. The devil (not the caf) made me do it. If I may reply respectfully to some of your points.... "IF the reason traditional musicians are not being booked for festivals is because of singer-songwriters, it stands to reason that the discussion would try to examine why that is happening." That's exactly what I did in my first post, which was ignored. (Which is not unusual. Spaw, one of the few catters who paid any attention to my posts, seems to have disappeared. Not that his attention was always welcome.) In my first post I tried to do two things. 1. let the posters in this thread know that if they cannot find "traditional" music, they're not looking very hard. 2. Sketch an explanation why they cannot find it in the places they have looked by saying some vague things about the dynamics of "big" festivals. "If the people you know "who care most about traditional music" (are you insinuating that the rest of us don't care that much???) don't bother to attend festivals that don't feature traditional music, then perhaps you creating a very isolated and unfriendly scene. Instead of welcoming and trying to perpetuate, the music gets played in a vacuum." Yes, that's what I was insinuating. But I felt that insinuation was an improvement over the first draft of my post where I just flat out said it. But what else should I conclude? I spend my entire summer listening to and playing with traditional musicians and I only attend a fraction of the festivals which feature them. There's so much more in the world of festivals than the Philly Folk Fest and Old Songs. Also, your response sounds like a "blame the victim" explanation to me. Festival A features traditional musicians. Festival B features singer-songwriters. I vote with my dollars and choose festival A. If I (and all my fellow attendees at festival A) am guilty of creating a "very isolated and unfriendly scene" well golly so are all the attendees at festival B. We are all guilty, guilty, guilty.... of acting in accordance with our personal preferences. On my guiltometer that doesn't even register. Should I try to get festival B to include more traditional musicians? Been there. Turns out the people who run festival B are just as enthusiastic about and committed to their performers as the people who run festival A. It ain't broke. Why would they want to fix it? Who in their right mind would want to listen to an old man playing solo fiddle anyway? Re-defining traditional music? That's a whole 'nother thread. "Is it right to ignore the living tradition facet of folk music?" Of course. When I listen to NPR instead of the other available radio drek, when I buy a Jean Ritchie CD instead of one by Britney Spears, when I shop at my local farmers' market instead of the local instantiation of a mega-chain I am "ignoring" the alternatives. Once again this doesn't register on my guilt radar. "But to deny that singer-songwriters exist and that there is an audience that enjoys that type of music is really looking at the issue with blinders on." I didn't deny the existence of anything or anybody. I have no theoretical/conceptual/philosophical/moral/ethical/whatever problems with singer-songwriters. Some of my best friends are singer-songwriters. Some of my best friends attend their concerts and buy their CDs. May all of them live long and prosper. I have even seen my fair share of singer-songwriters. But with (very) finite discretionary income and free time I must pick and choose. Russ (still the GUEST after all these years) |
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24 Oct 03 - 11:00 AM (#1041069) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: Santa So we have become used to watching music rather than making it? What a load of twaddle. Just who filled the pubs where people sang in The Old Days? Not every one in Hardy Country had their own fiddle and a fine singing voice and the skill to make music. The great majority of the population didn't make music then, any more than they do now. I have severe doubts that every pub had its own performing circle, with regular sessions and spontaneous jigs. The Chas and Dave version of history. |
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24 Oct 03 - 11:20 AM (#1041084) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: treewind Ron and Greg - I think the reason why it's the singer songwriters who are monopolizing the festivals, rather than traddies or Spike Jones imitators or whatever, is because what they are imitating is pop music. By definition, pop is where the money is and what most people listen to, even if that choice is 'informed' mostly by having it rammed down their throats by the marketing machine. My view of the worst type of S-S at clubs and festivals is that thay want to be pop stars and are desperately hoping to get lucky. I don't think traditional musicians or singers have such aspirations, perhaps because we put our choice of musical style first (or maybe we're just more realistic!!!). It's hard work running a festival and making it pay, or even just avoiding bankruptcy, and the easy way out is to go for what you know will bring in the punters. The few good traditional festivals are run by people who have an incredibly detailed knowledge of their music, which means they have to know a lot about performers whom most people have never heard of, have to reach an audience that are very thinly distributed around the country, and won't get much help from the media in doing so. Now Russ - I'm a musician in the traditional style, and I'd like to talk about traditional performers in this context, but what is there to say? Practice what you preach! Oh - and Midchuck: you start with a over simplistic assumption, and then go on to demonstrate why that assumption is too simplistic. Even in what most would call the solidly tradition world, I've been made acutely aware recently of some incredibly fine-grained nit-picking between 'traditional' and 'revival' British folk music. There's a whole spectrum, of course. Or at least there should be, which is where we came in.... Anahata |
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24 Oct 03 - 11:25 AM (#1041087) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: WFDU - Ron Olesko "twaddle"? That is a new one! Santa, the discussion was on folk festivals, not pub singing. The folk music that I was thinking about are the body of work songs, lullabyes, and songs people would sing as part of their daily lives. What I was trying to point out is that over the last 100 years or so it has become easier to turn on a radio or listen to someone else make music. Russ, your points are well taken. I did not mean to come across as "blaming the victim". I do think that support should be thrown to the traditional festivals as I said in previous post. I had the honor of being invited to MC a concert at the Eisteddfod festival this year. Wonderful music, but less than 200 people paid to attend. Events like these need support. It was a wonderful weekend of music. Since this discussion started about a large scale festival in Ontario, I was directing my comments on what can be done to make change at events like these. I do think that festivals like Old Songs and Philadelphia Folk Festival are committed to giving it's audience what THEY want to hear, instead of some festivals that present what they THINK the audience wants to hear. Using those two festivals as examples, each of them solicit feedback and they do respond. "Fix" a broken festival? I'm not sure it is broken Russ. Tweaking would be more like it. " "Is it right to ignore the living tradition facet of folk music?" Of course. When I listen to NPR instead of the other available radio drek, when I buy a Jean Ritchie CD instead of one by Britney Spears, when I shop at my local farmers' market instead of the local instantiation of a mega-chain I am "ignoring" the alternatives. Once again this doesn't register on my guilt radar." Russ, you did a much better job of making my point than I did. Jean Ritchie IS a living tradition. She also writes songs. SHE is a singer-songwriter. Yes, I consider her folk music. That is my point about folk music - it is a living tradition. Why is Jean Ritchie considered "folk" by you and me, but neither one of us would say the same thing about Britney. THAT is where the living tradition aspect comes in. There are many singer-songwriters like Jean Ritchie that come out of that tradition and continue to perpetuate. Ron |
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24 Oct 03 - 11:25 AM (#1041089) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: GUEST,Russ Anahata, But I did talk about traditional performers in this context. My first post. Honest. |
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24 Oct 03 - 11:52 AM (#1041106) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: treewind So you did, and made some good points. I did read it too, but forgot that it was you who wrote it. Anahata |
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24 Oct 03 - 12:10 PM (#1041119) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Anahata - you hit the nail on the head with your great point about marketing machines forcing the music down our throats. There is one promoter who represents a collective of singer-songwriters who constantly sends me recordings from artists that are very pop oriented and feature all sorts of rock settings for their songs. He is always writing me asking me why I won't play his artists on my radio show. I always reply that my program is a folk music radio show called Traditions, and the artists that he represents do not come from the same tradition. I try to honor the traditional music and play artists that write songs who come from the same roots. I go to conferences for the Folk Alliance and hear so many musicians that I could never make a connection with what I've grown to know as folk music. They are merely looking for a break and feel that the avenues that promote folk music are there way to fame and fortune. Most of these types are what I would call the "singer-songwhiner" variety. As you say, traditional musicians are performing for the love of the music. They do not get the higher paid jobs. Perhaps they need a better PR person. Then again, perhaps they are doing just fine as they are. |
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24 Oct 03 - 12:37 PM (#1041135) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: GUEST,Russ Ron, Thanks for putting up with the hyperbole. Speaking only for myself, given the logistics and costs of attending, it would take more than "tweaking" (like adding a token traditional musician or two) to get me to one of the big festivals. More generally, it sounds to me that a recurring theme in this thread is that the big festivals have become prisoners of their bigness, prisoners of the expectations of the people who put them on and the people who attend them. To use a term from the business world, they are prisoners of their "culture." Changing a culture is not a simple thing and takes a whole lot more than an "outsider" filling out some comment cards. Sometimes what looks to be a simple "tweak" turns out to require fundamental changes in an organization. That's not to say it shouldn't or cannot be done. I'm just not gonna put it on MY to-do list. |
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24 Oct 03 - 01:09 PM (#1041153) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Russ, I understand your feelings. Of course people cannot attend every festival and their money should go to the festival that they know they will enjoy. By "tweaking", I was also referring to the simple task of sending feedback. I believe both Old Songs and Philadelphia Folk fests have "guestbooks" or online surveys. Voicing an opinion does not have to cost much! Sure, there is more involvement needed to make change, but you would be surprised how much effect a few comments can have. I'm not sure about "changing" a culture. To me, folk music has always been a reflection of culture. The folk revival of the 50's and 60's (and actually 30's and 40's as well) happened because it filled a need and spoke to a wider audience. IF the issue of not having traditional performers in a lineup is felt by enough people, then it will change. |
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24 Oct 03 - 01:12 PM (#1041155) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: MikeofNorthumbria I've really enjoyed following this debate, folks. Lots of good stuff to ponder on. Now here's my 2pennorth. Duke Ellington (so the legend goes) was once asked what kind of music he liked. He replied "I only know two kinds of music: good and bad. I like good music." I could produce many instances of musicians and singers who are usually pigeon-holed into a specific genre by the music business and the journalists who service it, but whose actual playing, singing (and listening) transcends these artificial divisions. To avoid sending you all to sleep, I'll mention only a few of them. To start with Jazz. Ellington himself recorded an outstanding album in collaboration with Louis Armstrong (supposedly light-years behind him in hipness) and another masterpiece with John Coltrane (supposedly light-years ahead of him ditto.) Charlie Parker, king of cool, enjoyed listening to "corny" Country Music, and is reported to have jammed enthusiastically after hours with Bob Wills and his Texas Playboys while touring in the midwest. Parker also adored Stravinsky's music, and recorded original compositions and standards backed by a classical string ensemble. And what about our own backyard - the world of folk and ...let's call it neo-folk ...music and song. What about Bob Copper's admiration for the blues recordings of Sleepy John Estes, and his own recording of Oscar Brown Jr.'s contemporary composition "Rags and Old Iron"? Or Peter Bellamy's passionate commitment to English traditional song, AND to the works of the Rolling Stones? And don't forget the wonderful results of cross-genre collaboration in Shirley Collins's "Anthems in Eden", or in Yo-Yo Ma's "Appalachian Journey". In my experience, a great many musicians and singers in the folk world have very broad interests and sympathies in music, and are only too happy to demonstrate these influences in their own performance - in sessions after hours, if not on the concert stage. I've heard many a fine contemporary song sung by a die-hard traddy - and quite a few excellent renditions of traditional songs by singers famous for their own compositions. And where in this categorising system do you locate the likes of Cyril Tawney - one of our greatest singer-song-writers, AND one of our greatest interpreters of traditional songs? Unfortunately, there are influential people in the music business who believe it is in their interest to package every performer in a tidy box, with a familiar generic label clearly visible on it. These people also see it as being in their interest to encourage the record-buying and concert-going public to adopt a passionate commitment to one particular genre of music - and a passionate contempt for every other kind of music. It's called "encouraging brand loyalty" I believe. Sadly, a considerable number of music fans are caught by this con-trick. Happily, most of them grow out of it eventually. As to the possibility that singer-songwriters will push revivalist folksingers and musicians off the map entirely - don't worry. It's just a phase. This too shall pass away. Quality endures. Wassail! |
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24 Oct 03 - 01:19 PM (#1041157) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Very well put Mike! There is room for everything. For the same reasons I've never cared for Ayn Rand because her philosophy seemed so cut and dry. Everything is not black and white. I think sometimes my posts sometimes seem as though I am am waffling, but I really believe there is room for both traditionalists and good singer-songwriters. In my personal time I do listen to other styles of music, including the pop music that my daughter enjoys that has me scratching my head. We can learn from all types of music. |
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25 Oct 03 - 10:20 AM (#1041601) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: black walnut Sorry. The idea that "quality endures" doesn't sit right with me. There are countless examples of the destruction and extinction of quality. In this crazy world, with its powers of media and stress, it is necessary to savour, nuture and promote quality. Including music. ~b.w. |
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25 Oct 03 - 10:51 AM (#1041611) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: greg stephens Mike of Northumbria: Duke Ellington also said something else remarkably relevant to this discussion: There are two kinds of fool, those who say "This is old, and therefore good", and those who say "This is new, and therefore better". |
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25 Oct 03 - 11:28 AM (#1041622) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: black walnut Greg, are you saying this in response to what I said (at 10:20)? I'm not into museums for museums' sakes. Here's an example of what I'm talking about - not music related....the peregrine falcon. Almost extinct. Now thriving in country and cities. There's a nest of them on a highrise close to where I work. Peregrines are quality birds, but they wouldn't have survived on their own, without some help. I support the foundation that Just because they are old doesn't make them either good or bad. But the fact that they are amazingly wonderful old birds doesn't mean that they will make it on their own. Nor does it mean that only their supporters should benefit from seeing them or knowing about them. There is a responsibility in the foundation to educate the public about these wonderful old birds. Am I making any sense? Does anyone see the metaphor? It's not perfect, but maybe it's a flight off the right cliff. ~b.w. |
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25 Oct 03 - 11:55 AM (#1041634) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: greg stephens black walnut: no, I certainly want disagreeing with, I'm with you all the way. Beautiful things are often very fragile, and need a lot of help now and then. |
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26 Oct 03 - 02:11 PM (#1042081) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: McGrath of Harlow Nothing mecahnical about quality enduring, true enough. But crap does not survive (though often enough what might seems like crap at the time turns out to have been something very different); and "quality" has a tendency to get revived and bounce back to life, years after it's been declared dead and buried. Anyway, I can't see why the people who don't like what they see as happening to their folk festivals seem so defeatist. We always get people quoting the old saw "If it ain't broke don't fix it", and it's true enough. But the corollary to that is, if is broke, fix it. I've never been to a festival that didn't have a fringe - aside from a few small ones which are all fringe. That's where to start. |
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26 Oct 03 - 02:44 PM (#1042090) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: black walnut Maybe I've had my sunglasses on and missed it, but I can't think of any folk festival I've ever been to that's had a 'fringe' element. Could you please describe this idea more, M of H, and explain how it 'fixes' things? I don't think we're defeatist, we up here in Ontario. We are tough and gritty, dealing with blackflies and Oak Ridges developers and insidious viruses as we do. I think that what we're doing here is describing a tendency/problem in a certain part of the country. If an issue can be described and discussed, there is hope for change; I think that the bulk of this thread isn't defeatist at all. I think we're comparing notes...seeing if we're on the same page with this issue. It's cheaper than long distance. ~b.w. |
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26 Oct 03 - 03:36 PM (#1042104) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: McGrath of Harlow What I mean by a fringe is events happening that don't involve venues arranged by the organisers - for example, if there aren't the right kind of sessions or singarounds, find a place where people will let you run one, and get the word around that it's on. In principle a fringe event could be anything, any size, depending on finding a suitable venue. One of my most enjoyable Sidmouth events was an un-programmed one-man show on a pub bar by an actor being Oscar Wilde. Festivals that take place in a lot of venues in a town are perhaps more easily fringed, since it's just a question of finding a venue that isn't taken up. But festivals out in a field can have events happening out among the tents where people camp, or in pubs a little way up the road. Or out in the open round the back of the big tents, or in the refreshment area... I suppose you might get festivals where the organisers came in stroppy and tried to shut things down - but that would turn it into a different kind of fringe event. Attempts by the organisers to directly shut down a traditional music event at a folk festival could attract a lot of support on the ground, I'd think. Just what's needed to give it street cred, maybe. All folk festivals I've ever been to seem to have a mix of traditional music and less traditional, and that goes for the "big names" as well more often than not. And there also seems to be a general acceptance that if people want to put on something that isn't in the programme, no problem. |
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26 Oct 03 - 03:57 PM (#1042113) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: Nigel Parsons "Cop" : as already stated, to arrest (from 'Cop' = policeman)or to grab. In general usage also to get hold of "If you're coming, cop a hold of that amp, and bring it to the car" Or to take a good look at "Cop a look at that!"= "look at that, it's worth seeing" All general UK English usage Nigel |
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26 Oct 03 - 06:15 PM (#1042162) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: McGrath of Harlow Quite possible. And for the cases Nigel gives, I'd agree. But "Not much cop" isn't what you'd expect from them. I'd have expected "Not worth copping" or something like that. I'd not be surprised it's got some other source. "Cop" itself is on any case an odd word - it's been suggested that it's cognate with "capture", and that cop or copper also comes from that - but the vowel change from "a" to "o" isn't what you'd expect. I'm wondering whether there might not be a Shelta or Romany origin. |
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26 Oct 03 - 06:36 PM (#1042179) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: Joybell Just an observation about the marketing of "Folk Festivals" here in Australia. We have a new "trad and now" magazine. It is trying to present all that's going on on the so-called Folk scene and a difficult job it must be too. It does have articles by, and about, older "traditional" musicians, but the main look is YOUNG, GLOSSY, NEW, and POP. There was a long article about a young sexy group who gave advice on how to get booked at folk festivals. It was interesting reading I can tell you, and they were right! Spot on! They were exactly like the acts that make up the bulk of the theme-park folk festivals we seem to have here now. Not all festivals, but most. Seems, if I want to be part of it all, I have to look young, beautiful, slim to the point of wasted away, wear the shortest of skirts -something vaguely ethnic, and do dance routines. Won't matter much how I sound as long as it's loud and I include words like "Celtic" (pronounced seltic and not the way I was taught)and they seem meaningful without being too specific. I will have to have written the words myself. A band of beautiful young musicians is preferable to a solo singer. Solo male is OUT! unless he's a blues musician and then one male blues singer per festival is allowed. We do have our gatherings of old and young musicians, of traditional singers and singer-songwriters, of singers in sing-arounds, but they are rare at folk festivals. Some of us, particularly if we are isolated by distance, do feel the pop takeover of folk festivals keenly,not because we are no longer young and lovely but because we can't take what now is marketed as "Folk music". |
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26 Oct 03 - 07:21 PM (#1042213) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: Joybell Oops! Just had a senior episode! The word "Celtic" is of course always pronounced "Keltic" these days and not "Seltic" as we were taught at school. The other point I neglected to add is that the young spokesperson for the beautiful "now" group I mentioned was also giving advice on how traditional music should be presented today. Not just at folk festivals but everywhere! Scary! |
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27 Oct 03 - 09:13 AM (#1042506) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: Willie-O I dunno, maybe I'm just lucky, or dense. we have two local festivals in our neighbourhood that seem to break all the rules and have a bit of everything. One is in the town of Perth, the Stewart Park Festival, last weekend in July--the other is Blue Skies out in the woods, the very next weekend. Even in such excellent and varied programs as these, there is a tendency towards booking the HIGH ENERGY acts. Solo players had better be virtuosos and crowd pleasers if they expect to get in there (and the singer-songwriters need these attributes too), seems like everyone needs a band. This upping of the ampereage has kind of spoiled audiences, but there it is. I remember the last time I went to Winnipeg, Dick Gaughan had a main stage concert, we got pretty close to the front--and found ourselves surrounded with Winnipeggers discussing their pension plans, since there wasn't so much noise from the stage. All they saw was some guy with a guitar and a Scottish accent. I'm like giving them all the evil eye--"don't you %^&*s know great art?" But in contrast, Dick was a very strong presence in workshops and in a mini-concert--a workshop-stage concert. Two points: from the point of view of a festival organizer, they receive a huge amount of promotional material to consider---and a lot of it is very very good. It's harder to seek out particular performers who might not be the hottest thing on the scene right now--it's a lot easier to book the acts who are on the festival circuit. Second, and related, it's incumbent on those of us who are trad enthusiasts in a local music scene to try to get some of it into the festival program. If not mainstage, remember they are always looking for workshop ideas, so get in there early with them. At last Stewart Park fest I bugged the artistic director (a friend) enough that she let me host a trad Celtic session on a workshop stage--which was enthusiastically received, but they'd never have thought of doing it otherwise. (Basically, I just invited a crowd of pub session players I know to have at it.) Well that's enough--gotta go make a living again. W-O |
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27 Oct 03 - 11:17 AM (#1042581) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: Mooh W-O...Nicely put, and I agree. Peace, Mooh. |
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27 Oct 03 - 04:56 PM (#1042809) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: Joybell Yes we aren't quite ready to quit here yet either. We have been managing to get into festivals with catchy sounding theme concerts and workshops. Within these we do the material we really love - some traditional songs, some old popular songs, heart songs. It's easy once we get in. Next week we go to one of the best little festivals in Australia. They told us that all our workshops and theme concerts looked so good that they couldn't decide which ones to use. They let us choose. This festival doesn't even ask for a photo when you apply - it's how you sound that counts. Maldon here we come! |
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27 Oct 03 - 06:13 PM (#1042845) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: McGrath of Harlow That bit Willie-o said about the "trad Celtic session on a workshop stage" was just the kind of thing I had in mind when I was going on about fringe events. The great thing about being traditional is that all you really need are the people who are ready to make the music, and a place to make it in. |
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31 Oct 03 - 06:14 PM (#1045530) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: Willie-O So true, Kevin--you need to get it just organized enough to spontaneously happen! I sent a link to this thread to the Stewart Park artistic director, and she's forwarded it to other OCFF programmers--I guess that's what they call themselves, it does sound a bit less pretentious than Artistic Director la la la. So if any of you programmers out there got this far, please chime in! |
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01 Nov 03 - 05:38 AM (#1045707) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: Don(Wyziwyg)T I guess I'm lucky to be an old fashioned Brit, who still has access to festivals where the organisers care about the music, and don't spend time agonising about the genre labels to be applied. Anyone who wants to find a model for the perfect folk festival should come to the Sidmouth International Festival, where traditional musicians and singers rub shoulders with singer/songwriters, and all anyone cares about is the entertainment value of the performances. It's all about mutual respect. After all, by the most basic definition of folk music (handed down the generations, rather than published), two of the earliest songs in the calendar, "Summer is icumen in", and "The cutty wren", would be classified as singer/songwriter material, having been published in the 13th and 14th centuries. My own take on this is that both kinds are necessary, and it's up to us to make our preferences known to organisers who can't get the balance right, either by voting with our purses (a language they all understand), or by starting our own festivals, in direct competition. |
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01 Nov 03 - 04:15 PM (#1045940) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: Peace As someone said, the cattle and the sheep ranchers might not get along, but I'd bet the cattle and the sheep do! |
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01 Nov 03 - 08:35 PM (#1046026) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: Peace Regarding the 'debate' about traditional vis a vis singer-songwriters: This all sounds strikingly similar to stuff I heard in the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, and now the 00s. When the traditional stuff was written, singer-songwriters had a hand in it. Let's first define 'traditional' and maybe cull all those who think anything new is bad. Where exactly does traditional start and stop? Are we saying that tradition is formed when it is given the approval of time? How much time? "Blowin' in the Wind" has been sung by more people than Carter had liver pills. Is it now traditional? I hope so! If it isn't, where are we going to get new traditions from? Just some thoughts. |
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02 Nov 03 - 07:54 AM (#1046170) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: black walnut Maybe I shouldn't have put "vs." in the title...read it as "and". Or maybe I should have put "AT FESTIVALS" in capital letters. I repeat: this is NOT about liking one more than the other. It's about the danger of losing one of them. EXTINCTION, people, EXTINCTION. Sigh, ~b.w. |
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02 Nov 03 - 10:26 AM (#1046217) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: Willie-O Yeah, I think this thread has run its interesting course. Last thing we want to do to prolong it is have a go at defining "traditional"--sorry Brucie, I'm not denying the validity of your comment, ESPECIALLY that as you correctly point out (I think) that question has been done to death over the many decades. We just wanted to have a kick at the can in regards to how latter-day festivals which feature acoustic roots-type music can maintain a healthy balance of contemporary and trad-type programming. Well, you'll notice that most festivals have dropped the word "folk" from their names, unless they had a compelling reason for using it. This doesn't mean they're hostile to trad folk, just that they are casting a wider net than a label that many worthwhile acoustic artists don't identify with. W-O |
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02 Nov 03 - 10:42 AM (#1046227) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Here in the U.S. only a handful of festivals have dropped "folk" from their title, and those that have are USUALLY (but not always) gearing towards a different theme. While we may have a hard time defining what "folk" is, I am happy that MOST of our festivals maintain their own character and MOST offer something for everyone. |
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02 Nov 03 - 10:53 AM (#1046233) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: black walnut The festivals we are talking about here are the ones which hold membership with the Ontario Council of FOLK Festivals - the OCFF. ~b.w. |
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02 Nov 03 - 11:07 AM (#1046236) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: greg stephens Well, Brucie, you might think "Blowing in the Wind" is a traditional song, but I dont. Arguing about what you mean by"traditional" or "folk" may be tedious, but such is life. I know and love loads of traditional songs, and loads of non-traditional songs. The difference is pretty obvious to most people. Whether they can co-exist at a festival is something we can discuss, but obviously they are different things: otherwise how could we discuss if they can co-exist? |
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02 Nov 03 - 11:08 AM (#1046237) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: black walnut FYI, here's a list of the OCFF festivals 2003. May 16 - June 1 Niagara Folk Arts Festival – St Catharines June 13 - September 1, 2003 Rhythms of the World at Harbourfront Centre - Toronto June 14, 2003 Brampton Folk Festival - Brampton June 20 - 22, 2003 Tottenham Bluegrass Festival - Tottenham July 3 – 6, 2003 Sunfest - London July 4 – 6, 2003 Mariposa Folk Festival - Orillia July 4 – 6, 2003 Northern Lights Festival Boréal - Sudbury Canterbury Folk Festival - Ingersoll July 12, 2003 Almaguin Music Festival – Sundridge July 18 - 20, 2003 Home County Folk Festival - London July 25 – 27, 2003 Hillside Festival - Guelph Lake Island July 25 – 27, 2003 Stewart Park Festival – Perth August 2 - 3, 2003 Blue Skies Music Festival - Clarendon August 1 - 2, 2003 Mill-Race Folk Festival - Cambridge August 8 – 10, 2003 Earth, Air, Fire & Water: Celtic Roots Festival - Goderich August 15 – 17, 2003 Trout Forest Music Festival - Ear Falls August 15 - 17, 2003 The 18th Summerfolk Music & Crafts Festival - Owen Sound August 22 - 24, 2003 Eaglewood Folk Festival - Pefferlaw August 22 - 24 2003 CKCU Ottawa Folk Festival - Ottawa August 22 - 24, 2003 Peterborough Folk Festival - Peterborough August 29-31, 2003 Fiesta Del Sol (Festival of the Sun) - London October 3 - 4, 2003 Canadian Songwriters' Festival - Guelph October 23 – 25, 2003 La Nuit sur l'étang - Sudbury ~black walnut |
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02 Nov 03 - 11:35 AM (#1046240) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: DebC I was thinking of posting this in a new thread and maybe the Joes of Mudcat will see fit to do that. I dunno...but it also seemed to fit into this one as well. Last spring, I received a solicitation from a prominent festival with the word "folk" in it's name asking for submissions to their "emerging folk artist contest" or something similiar, I cannot recall the exact wording. This is not the first time that I have received or seen these kinds of solicitations. My problem with this is that among all the usual requirements (which I can fulfill with no problem) is that you must submit an "original song". What bites my butt about this is that this kind of thing excludes people like me who DO NOT WRITE. I consider myself pretty firmly planted in the "folk" category, and I consider myself an interpreter, not a writer. But I don't have an original song, and though I have tried to write, I do not consider it something I do well. Again, I want to see everyone coming together under the label of folk, no matter what they do. Even though I am not a native UK'er, I did live over there for a short time and go back every now and then. In my experience (and that may be limited), I do not see this exclusion being practised as extensively as it is here in the US. It was pointed out to me one night after I did a floor spot in a folk club that I was the only floor singer out of six that sang a traditional song :-) FWIW, Deb Cowan |
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02 Nov 03 - 12:14 PM (#1046253) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: GUEST,Arnie I would guess that at the Ontario showcases performances perhaps 5% or less of the songs or tunes performed were traditional. Maybe 10% in a traditional style (I myself played 2 original tunes on clawhammer banjo which would fit into that category) - the rest of the acts I would consider competant pop style folk singer/songwriters. I personally felt like a needle in a haystack - almost as if I didn't belong in what I thought of my music community. |
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02 Nov 03 - 12:26 PM (#1046256) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: DebC Arnie, I certainly can sympathise with that. I live in the Boston area and it seems that way here. When I was doing the open mic thing five or six years ago, I would be the only person out of all the performers singing a traditional song. It just seems (here at any rate with a couple of exceptions) that trads and singer/songwriters have their own kind of apartheid. Deb |
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02 Nov 03 - 12:55 PM (#1046271) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: treewind Deb - it wouldn't be the first time I'd seen the view expressed that "if you didn't write it yourself, it isn't folk". The misguided idea seems to be that if a song isn't from your own personal experience then it isn't valid. "Only does covers" ... the whole culture and vocabulary is that of the pop world. Anahata |
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02 Nov 03 - 12:58 PM (#1046275) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: McGrath of Harlow "Original song" - I would have thought that in the context of something billing itself as a "folk festival" this term should include traditional songs which had not been commercially recorded. For exmplke a song you found on a field recording, or in a book. However, if the organisers perversely refused to accept that - which unfortunately is quite possible - than I suggest DebC could sing a song written by someone else, but which had not been commercially recorded. I don't mean pass it off as her own work - but "original" does not mean the same as "self-penned". Have a hunt through The Mudcat Songbook (Original Songs and Music from the Folks at The Mudcat Cafe) (Note that "original"), and see if there's anything you like. And you're more than welcome to use any of mine. |
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03 Nov 03 - 08:17 AM (#1046708) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: DebC That is what I do, McGrath. I sing lots of songs written by others and lots of traditional songs as well. Unfortunately when these organisers say "original" they mean from your brain and no one else's. One of my problems (which is a nice one to have) is that I know so many songs that putting together a set list for a concert is difficult sometimes, but I do have an advantage over my singer/songwriter friends in that I am not restricted in the material I can sing. But in applying for these special stages at festivals and some coffeehouses here I am excluded because I do not write my own material. Anahata, you are absolutely right about the "covers" issue. I have eliminated that word from my vocabulary. It is always a funny thing when someone asks me (and I get this question a lot) "What kind of songs do you write?" I always reply "Bad ones." But you know, they can run their venue anyway they wish, but I do hope that the discussion does not stop. We need to be having this discussion not only on Mudcat, but in the Folk Alliance as well as in other places. Deb |
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03 Nov 03 - 08:33 AM (#1046727) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: greg stephens DebC's story about the Folk festival insisting on original material is fascinating. their cant be many examples of words changing their meaning to their own opposite in one generation. Other musical genre terms have changing meaning hugely, but at least a lot of jazz still sounds jazzy, and a modicum of modern rhythm'n'blues still sounds rhythmic and bluesy. But DebC's example is amazing, where songs that were defined as folk (or the songs that defined folk, to be more precise) in 1960 cannot be sung in a folk festival competition 40 years later. |
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03 Nov 03 - 10:01 AM (#1046783) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: McGrath of Harlow That really is absurd, and should be challenged. The insistence that traditional material cannot be "original" is oppressive - but the ideas that "original" in this context means written by the singer is just totally bonkers. Even in terms of "singer-songwriters" - just check through the tracks on records made by some of the most respected among them (and in spite of the sneers, there are quite a few), and you'll find any number of songs actually written by other people, and credited to them. Even in a songwriting competition it'd be absurd to try to impose this kind of rule - there are plenty of people who are a lot better at writing songs than singing them, or who for other reasons depend on singers who like to sing songs written by other people. Maybe if you could let us have the name of this "prominent festival" which has the impertinance to call itself a "folk" festival, it might be possible for other people to get the point across to the organisers. |
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03 Nov 03 - 10:20 AM (#1046793) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: black walnut I'm so glad you shared on this thread, DebC. It's valuable to hear about your experience. Well said, McGrath. ~b.w. |
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03 Nov 03 - 12:20 PM (#1046885) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: DebC I have been trying to recall the exact place where the solicitation came from (folkbiz listserv, folkalliance listserv, I belong to a bunch) and I cannot remember. What I *do* recall was that it was an invite to performers to appear in a contest at the Newport Folk Festival (2002?) to find the "next folk star". Now, I must admit that being the "next folk star" is at the very top of my priorities :-) but when I saw this requirement about submitting an original song, I was a bit irritated. And as I have said above this is not a glaring exception. This same discussion also came up a few years ago on the Folkbiz listserv. My good friend Bob Mills made the point about original songs vs. traditional material as he is a wonderful musician and, like me, does not compose. Unfortunately the discussion seemed to go nowhere and everytime it gets brought up, it gets into the usual definitions of folk, etc. and I have never seen any solutions offered either. It really has to do with changing people's perceptions and I am not sure how one goes about doing that. here on the Mudcat I know that the "choir" is listening, but it's a different story out there in the business of folk. At least here in the US, that is. It was interesting tho, as I was searching the archives for the exact post to one of the listservs I did come across this one from the FolkBiz list dated 8/17: "Just got back from the Newport Folk Festival--is it my imagination or is NO-ONE hiring traditional folk musicians anymore?" and Mike Agranoff responded: "No, but it's for sure that Newport is not hiring traditional folk musicians anymore." So I guess I just blew my chances to ever be included in Newport, eh? All the best, Deb |
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03 Nov 03 - 12:32 PM (#1046899) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: McGrath of Harlow In the Fleadh Ceoil in Ireland they have a competition for "Newly Composed Ballads" , and that seems an excellent idea, especially in the context of a traditional festival, and a living tradition - but there'd be no suggestion that a song would be excluded because the person singing it wasn't the one who wrote it. |
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03 Nov 03 - 12:57 PM (#1046922) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: Willie-O DebC, I figured you were talking about the "New Folk" competition, an annual component of the Kerrville Folk Festival in Texas. Now, I have the same gut reaction as you to hearing those requirements, but I didn't really mind it at Kerrville (despite their use of the F word) because that festival is very strongly identified as a singer-songwriter event. "Performer-songwriter" competitions seem to be getting more widespread though and I am somewhat bothered by the concept. But then again, I think I react more strongly because I just don't like the approach to music as a competitive activity--let alone the emphasis on becoming a friggin' STAR, dahling. A few years ago, a well-meaning music society undertook to put out a compilation album of "folk" artists based in Lanark County. So they held a contest. (Naturally, it had to be original material. I don't think they gave any thought to making it otherwise). I had two songs in the top 25, (the first elimination round) and neither of them got on the CD. My backwoods buddies and I came out with material that was too Lanark County, funky and funny and a bit rough around the edges. The CD that emerged was polished and bland beyond belief. That was the last time I bothered with a contest--now I figure, if you have an artistic statement to make with your music, or you just want to have some fun, go ahead and do it yourself. Don't submit it to a committee to decide whether it's worthy or not. OCFF sponsors a songwriting competition called "Songs From the Heart", which at least doesn't misappropriate the "folk" term. W-O |
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03 Nov 03 - 01:21 PM (#1046936) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: DebC Hi Willie-O. I am very familiar with Kerrville. Not my cuppa, really, and it is pretty much understood by everybody that Kerrville is TOTALLY singer/songwriter oriented. I remember some deranged person telling me that they tried to get a Scared Harp session going at Kerrville and could not understand why people didn't show up. A case of not doing one's research I suppose. I have been involved in some of the more singer/songwriter things that have surprised me. In 2001, I was selected as one of 24 "new artists" in the Friday afternoon showcase at the Falcon Ridge Folk Festival. Out of the 24 there were only two of us who performed any traditional material at all. As for songwriting competitions, they are what they are, and that is fine for me. It is a competition in writing. I have no problem with that kind of thing as it is not making that assumption that Anahata referred to above that "if you didn't write it ain't folk". But there is one festival that Ron O mentioned above and that is the New Bedford Summerfest. I would encourage folks to check this one out as there is something for everybody at this event. Disclaimer: I have performed at this festival in the past and know the programmers, but I support it because their mission is to present music THEY enjoy and not follow a "trend". There is enough trad, contemporary, Celtic, World..in other words FOLK to go around to make the whole weekend an enjoyable one. Deb |
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03 Nov 03 - 01:32 PM (#1046942) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: McGrath of Harlow But why should a competition in songwriting be subject to a restriction that only people singing songs they wrote themselves should be allowed to enter? There are great singers who are pretty poor songwriters, and songwriters who aren't great shakes at singing their own songs. It's always been that way, and not just in "folk". Not too many people would have ever bought a record of Irving Berlin singing his songs. |
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03 Nov 03 - 01:36 PM (#1046946) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: Willie-O You have a point Kevin, but if you're organizing a contest you get to make up the rules! In fact you need to have rules. And once there are rules, for sure some of us are going to take them to task. That's why I don't go there... |
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03 Nov 03 - 02:12 PM (#1046973) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: Willie-O I just had a look at the Songs From the Heart rules, which specify in regards to the recorded submission: "anybody may sing the song but the prize goes to the writer." For better or worse, the arts of singing and songwriting are lumped together more often than not. Well, there are traditional singing contests too, are there not? Just not so many and they are generally only at identified "traditional" events. |
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03 Nov 03 - 03:06 PM (#1047007) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: McGrath of Harlow "For better or worse, the arts of singing and songwriting are lumped together more often than not." For worse. That's probably the reason people tend so often to be disparaging about the songs and the singers. We don't assume that guitarmakers are going to be great instrumentalists, or that great guitarists are going to be great instrument makers. |
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03 Nov 03 - 03:20 PM (#1047013) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: Peace Deb C, Have you considered co-authoring a song with a songwriter. You will both get lyric AND music credit, and voila, you will have fulfilled the requirements of the festival people and your conscience. |
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03 Nov 03 - 08:27 PM (#1047235) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: DebC Hi Brucie, hehehehe..yeah, I have considered it and a long, long time ago actually did that kind of thing. But I am not a writer. It is not what I do. And the gig is not that important that I would do something I am not good at just to get in. No..I'll leave the writing to the ones who can put words together ina concise way that tells a good story that is combined with a good melody. I always look at this two ways: there is so much good music out there that needs to to be sung or there is so much bad music out there and I really don't want to contribute to that :-) Deb |
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03 Nov 03 - 09:47 PM (#1047305) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: Peace You are indeed a woman of character and nobility. |
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04 Nov 03 - 11:04 AM (#1047674) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: Marion Very interesting thread, folks. It makes me wonder about the practice of writing new lyrics for folk tunes. I'm not talking about parodies but about distinct new songs, like Pat Cooksey's "The Sick Note" to the tune of "Garden Where the Praties Go." How does this kind of songwriting generally go over with programmers and audiences that are s/s oriented, and with programmers and audiences that prefer traditional? Is it something to please everyone, or something to displease everyone? And do songwriting competitions generally allow you to enter new lyrics for a traditional tune? And if it's allowed... is there any possibility of winning, or would it be held against you? Marion |
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04 Nov 03 - 11:25 AM (#1047685) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: McGrath of Harlow In the Fleadh Ceoil competition Imentioned that'd be a plus if anything. The truth is it's probably not possible to come up with a totally new tune that is worth listening to. Virtually all tunes have parents and belomg to families. |
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04 Nov 03 - 12:06 PM (#1047713) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: DebC Excellent questions, Marion. So much of it is attitude and personal taste. In my opinion and experience, many presenters here in the US are not familiar with good traditional musicians or music, only acoustic pop singer/songwriters. Here in Boston, there are only a few venues for traditional or trad-based performers but many many venues that present the acoustic/pop singer/songwriter. I suppose that if one takes a traditional melody and writes totally new lyrics you could enter it in one of these songwriter contests and I really don't think anyone would be the wiser. As I have said the songwriting contests don't bother me. But a contest that has the word "folk" in it's name and excludes everyone who isn't a writer, now that is a case where my biscuits is burnin' Deb |
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04 Nov 03 - 12:29 PM (#1047739) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: treewind I think you'll have to resign yourself to the fact that they are abusing the term 'folk' (or campaign for a redefinition), and accept that, since you are not a songwriter because that's simply not what you do, you don't really want or need to win a competition like that. Doing so might not lead to the sort of gigs that you'd want anyway... Anahata |
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04 Nov 03 - 12:57 PM (#1047772) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: DebC I agree, Anahata. I just do what I do and hope folks enjoy it. Been a great discussion here tho. Deb |
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04 Nov 03 - 01:12 PM (#1047786) Subject: RE: Trad vs. Singer-Songwriters at festivals From: McGrath of Harlow They are guilty of distorting the word "folk" true enough - but they are also distorting the word "original" as well. |