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19 Dec 03 - 10:25 PM (#1076610) Subject: BS: Whine Fest From: LilyFestre My husband and I took in an 11 year old little girl last April. She had been spending summers with us as part of an inner city program designed to allow children the chance to experience country living. Last spring, her mother called and asked if she could send her daughter to us to live here. Without hesitation, we said yes. Now, as we have known for a few months, Veronica (the little one) will be leaving us tomorrow to spend a month with her mother. There's a logical part of me that says well of course...this is as it should be....they want to be together for the holidays. Then there's the rest of me that is heartbroken that she won't be here to celebrate with us. We get to have her for the hum-drum daily life but not the celebrations. *POUT* Veronica is all tucked in bed now after a wonderful day of just playing together and I just want to say that this SUCKS. I can't stand the thought of sending Veronica off with her mother..the woman who can't be bothered to raise her, write her a letter or even to call her once a month. She didn't even call on Thanksgiving. We do not have full custody of Veronica so we are pretty much stuck...we have to do what her mother wishes...try not to rock the boat too much and still maintain our sanity and hearts. I said it once and I'll say it again..THIS JUST SUCKS!!!!! _()&)(*^*&^$%$@%#$^)*^(*&%*&^$%^#^$# Welcome to my whine fest. Michelle |
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19 Dec 03 - 10:30 PM (#1076615) Subject: RE: BS: Whine Fest From: GUEST Whining is fine but Michelle, you are a very, very lucky person. -guest |
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19 Dec 03 - 10:34 PM (#1076619) Subject: RE: BS: Whine Fest From: mg It sounds like you have lots of room in your hearts. How about another little girl who might need you on a more regular basis. As long as Michelle is not being abused or neglected, and here's hoping, spending time with her mother is a positive thing, and spending time with you is positive. mg |
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19 Dec 03 - 11:00 PM (#1076631) Subject: RE: BS: Whine Fest From: Amos Sounds like a case for custody might be made, although IANAL. It might be a hassle, and it might be well worth the outcome, depending on how Veronica sees it. A |
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20 Dec 03 - 03:19 AM (#1076694) Subject: RE: BS: Whine Fest From: Mudlark Don't know how you stand it. It must be so hard to hand her over, even from just a selfish viewpoint. If done right, fostering is bound to be heartbreaking, even in the best circs....which is what makes it such a heroic and wonderful act. Thanks for being there for Veronica in the ho-hum times...maybe you need to institute your own private "holidays," so you all could celebrate together as well. |
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20 Dec 03 - 04:26 AM (#1076706) Subject: RE: BS: Whine Fest From: catspaw49 Ten years and over thirty kids..........Foster Parents.........Doesn't get easier. I have tales and tales. You hope you have made some difference and become depressed when you see that in many cases any difference is so small as to be almost non-existent. But you hold onto that and keep going. eventually most of us burn out while becoming calloused to a point we never thought possible. You have to take those small differences and hope and believe they were at least something. We stopped three and a half years ago for a variety of reasons, basically burnt out. We get visits from some and sometimes are encouraged but most often we are depressed. On the other hand, they do come back to us and look at the time here and at us as something they hold close......and that's nice. But still............. And then.............One of our boys, was with us for 4 years and kept visiting for another 3 or so afterwards.....We hadn't heard from him in almost three years and feared the worst. A month ago he knocks on the door. He's got this nice girl with him who iturns out to be his wife and a 6 month old baby who is happy and beautiful! He has a good job that he's been working for two years, an almost new car, a nice apartment and they are looking at houses. When they left, Karen and I cried awhile.......happy tears. Sometimes it works. Get tough.....Hang in. Spaw |
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20 Dec 03 - 08:06 AM (#1076761) Subject: RE: BS: Whine Fest From: LilyFestre Morning Everybody, Thanks for the words of encouragement. To Guest....yes, we realize that we are very, VERY lucky people....for a huge variety of reasons and not just Veronica. We are, indeed, extremely thankful. Concerning Veronica.....YES it is hard to let her go....so yeah, I *AM* going to whine about it. My head knows it is logical and makes sense but there's a lump in my throat, butterflies in my stomach and my heart is overwhelmed with sadness......if you could convince the rest of my body to join what my head is thinking....then go for it.....I'm not doing such a hot job of it. Veronica really isn't a foster child....she's a little girl who started coming to us through the Fresh Air Fund Program. This program lines up inner city kids from New York who would never have the opportunity to travel or get out of the city to spend the summer with families who live in the country. An awesome program...we've had 5 kids over the years....some children return year after year. When Veronica came here for the first time, she was only 6 years old. She stayed for a few weeks and then returned to NYC. The next year she stayed longer...etc. That's the way the program works. Each summer when the kids leave, I spend some time trying to readjust to the quietness of the house and it's always hard. This year though, Veronica's mom called me at work and asked if I would take Veronica after Easter. I said sure. Then it was would I take her right before Easter....yep, that was fine too. Then it was, could you pick her up next weekend? ABSOLUTELY. Veronica's mother's reason for wanting Veronica to move out (while an older brother and younger sister are still living with Mom at home) was that Veronica wasn't doing well in school and she thought she had a chance to make a better life here. Sounds very noble and we thought highly of her. Three days ago, we were under the impression that Veronica would be gone for 2 weeks.....missing a day or two of school. I called her mom to confirm details of this trip and her mother said, "OH THANK GOD YOU CALLED!" She now wants Veronica to stay until almost the end of January....missing over 2 full weeks of school. We told her that and how she is doing poorly in one of her core subjects. Her mother's response...she laughed and told Veronica to do her work. Gee....what concern, eh? She calls about once a month.....I used to think it was financial hardship was the reason for that...but SHE HAS A CELL PHONE with UNLIMITED NIGHTS AND WEEKENDS!!!!!!!! She can call for FREE EVERYDAY!!!!!!!!!!!! When she sends things in the mail like health records....there is NEVER a note or a letter...and never anything for Veronica. There is no financial support here (no stipend or clothing allowance as many foster care programs allow....no insurance....we added her on our family insurance)....the apathy of this woman just kills me. She doesn't care about her all year long (I'm sure she does care...but we really have no way of seeing it) and now she wants to play Mommy over the holidays. Nice. My one and only concilation (spelled wrong, I know) is that Veronica will be coming back..at least that's what her mother tells us. Anyway...I'm just blowing off steam. It really does help me to hear about other people who have cared for children who aren't there own and how they have dealt with it. And Spaw...you have my admiration. Thanks for sharing with me. Okay..time to get the little one up and ready to go. Michelle |
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20 Dec 03 - 08:39 AM (#1076769) Subject: RE: BS: Whine Fest From: artbrooks Maybe put up a Valentines Day tree and exchange love gifts? Yeah, its silly. |
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20 Dec 03 - 09:15 AM (#1076781) Subject: RE: BS: Whine Fest From: AllisonA(Animaterra) Michelle, you have my great respect and yes, you go ahead and whine! Your capacity for love shines through your posts. Veronica is a lucky little girl. I have a colleague who actually went through the process of trying to get custody of a child in a similar situation to yours, and the child's family was willing up to a point- until it came to signing on the dotted line. They just couldn't do it. They couldn't parent, either, but they wanted to think they could. Sad conclusion all around. You just keep loving Veronica from a distance, and call her whenever you can, write to her, maybe even visit if you can manage it. Maybe your modeling of another way to "parent" will drop some hints to Veronica's mom- she may never have had a decent role model herself. And even if it doesn't sink into mom's head, it can't help but be good for the little girl. Blessings on all of you- Allison |
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20 Dec 03 - 11:48 AM (#1076830) Subject: RE: BS: Whine Fest From: SINSULL Lily, Veronica is so lucky to have you. It must be so hard for her to have a mother who doesn't want her around. And so reassuring to have you caring for her, giving her stability and love. I admire your courage. And feel free to whine and to worry. I will never understand why people have children they either can't or won't care for. Mary, former foster mother. |
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20 Dec 03 - 12:05 PM (#1076838) Subject: RE: BS: Whine Fest From: GUEST,Desdemona I just want to say how much I admire you for what you're doing for this child; your open-heartedness & unselfish kindness is certainly making a difference in her life. As for "whining", it's completely understandable that you feel wretched at being parted from her at the holidays, but rest assured that those "ho-hum" times of the year count for a lot more in the big picture than a few special days. Bless you, D. |
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20 Dec 03 - 12:16 PM (#1076847) Subject: RE: BS: Whine Fest From: wysiwyg Michelle, Since we know one another IRL, I will ask you to recall some of our conversations about my kids and step-kids, when Vee was still a summer visitor in your life. What you are experiencing now, it's not too different from the experience of custodial parents re: required visitation, or step-parents. What we have learned is that the main thing to work on during the child's absence is one's own issues about boundaries, and issues about however one was parented, so that when the child returns, one can get back to focusing on what is best for the child, whether it feels good to oneself or not. The grief and worry, one offers up in whatever way one finds useful, for one's own continuing development. Otherwise one begins to function according to what one feels one needs for oneself, even though one starts out knowing that parenting is never about that. (If only intention could be as reliable as an Expedia map.) But there is a slippery slope, especially in parenting a child who is legally and morally not your own, where intention becomes blurred with intolerable discomfort, and the absences provide a powerful reminder of how to work on that side of things. In the time of absence you will experience fresh views of it all that you could not otherwise see at all, including deep truths about your relationship with the child; it helps to welcome the reflection, if not the cause of it. The BEST thing about these visitation times is that the more they happen, the less the child will need to make up for lost time, and all the hunger for bonding, with the absent parent later. We sowed that when the kids were preteens and reaped it as they got older and more rebellious (I mean "independent"!). Knowing the absent parent, as they really are, makes for a much stronger child, later. One of ours has chosen, for practial as well as developmental reasons, to live in her mother's home this last year or so. She has learned everything she wished she had known and could not know without the extended, day in/day out time together. She's had what she calls "enough," and is smart enough to know the difference between the healthier model she had from us, and the co-dependent "friendship" her mother seems to "need." Kids tend to run FROM need, and run TO love, when both options are available. Another hard phase lies before you, and if you think it is hard now, it is much harder than this one. And that is, no matter how unhealthy the absent parents or the relationships with them, kids tend to need to explore that side of themselves (be it, act it out, try it on), as they leave the nest and make their own. You can do everything for them, and then see them go off in exatly the "wrong" direction you thought you had saved them from(!), seeming to be "just like" the so-and-so whose mess you've been tending to for years! This will bother you less if you work on the boundary thing now. Cuz really it is just a phase, and they move through it quickly when we don't freak out, and then they get back to being the wonderful person YOU raised. I feel for ya, but ya gotta learn all this on your own, and I know you know that. ~Susan |
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20 Dec 03 - 02:17 PM (#1076898) Subject: RE: BS: Whine Fest From: Peace "Who saves a life, it is as if he saved a whole world." |
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20 Dec 03 - 03:48 PM (#1076930) Subject: RE: BS: Whine Fest From: Don Firth They also serve who only stand and wait. —Milton One thing that you have given to Veronica that is invaluable. If things ever get tough for her, she knows she has someplace she can go. Don Firth |
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20 Dec 03 - 04:29 PM (#1076948) Subject: RE: BS: Whine Fest From: catspaw49 Okay....IT's time for a funny story!!! Kids doing visitations return to you with issues and attitudes and learning how to recognize and work through this is much discussed and generally a part of most foster training classes (FP's are required some number of hours of training every year, depending on where you are). One of the funniest moments I recall happened in a class dealing with just this subject. The Trainer was a good friend and she is really excellent at getting everyone involved. After hearing from most of us on some of the problems we had had in the past, she flopped over a new sheet of posterpaper and asked, "Okay.....When your kids come back from visits, what do they have?" There was a silence as no one seemed to want to answer first. After a pause of about 15 seconds or so, a woman in the back spoke up......."Lice?" The entire room fell apart laughing. *************** Like Sins, I don't presume to know why people have children they don't want. As an adoptive parent, I am blessed with two of them so there can be an upside. Read Allison's post again and prepare just in case. Custody battles are difficult on everyone, including the children. In your situation it's too easy to get hopes up, but you just keep whining here huh? We do understand. Spaw |
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20 Dec 03 - 04:57 PM (#1076968) Subject: RE: BS: Whine Fest From: LilyFestre Well, Veronica is now on the bus with her mother. *Shaking my head* Her mother was more interested in the fact that Veronica's feet has outgrown the boots she got her for Christmas than hugging her hello. It is simply beyond me. As for Christmas, we will be celebrating with presents and such at the end of January with our entire family. We decided a while back that we want her to experience how we celebrate...TOGETHER. So...the tree and all the Christmasy things will remain up until then.....we wouldn't have it any other way. :) I know she will be just fine. I know we will be just fine as well. Thanks again everybody. Michelle |
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08 Jan 04 - 07:02 PM (#1089041) Subject: RE: BS: Whine Fest From: LilyFestre Okay....my Little One hasn't returned yet....POUT. Her arrival is looming ever closer and I am excited about her return! The Christmas tree is still up and the animals haven't mangled the presents....YET...LOL. I have rearranged Veronica's room to accomodate some new furniture and a larger bed. She's been wanting both the bed (our old bed...we got a new one over the holidays) and the new (really not so new as it was mine as a little girl) furniture as there is a desk and dresser that she is very fond of. I can't wait for her to see it!!!!! We have also scheduled in a family day trip. Awww heck....I just can't wait to see that little smile when she hops off the bus!!!!!!!!!! I MISS MY VERONICA!!!!!!!!! I MISS HER!!! I MISS HER!!!! I MISS HER!!!! *smile* It won't be much longer now.................... Michelle |
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28 Aug 04 - 10:11 PM (#1259255) Subject: RE: BS: Whine Fest From: LilyFestre I recieved a phone call last week from Veronica's mother. She wants Veronica to come back and live with her on a full time basis. Why? She said, "Veronica's punishment is over. She knows that if she is bad I will send her away again." WHAT?!!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? This is the same woman who has called her daughter only 3 times in the last EIGHT MONTHS!!! She did not call Veronica on her birthday or send her a card or anything....nor did she do it the day after or the week after. This is the same woman who "FORGOT" to pick up her daughter at the bus station for a SCHEDULED summer visit. The very same woman who has not written to her daughter in EIGHTEEN MONTHS!!!!!!!! I'm sorry but you DO NOT send your child away for 18 months for misbehaving (not following directions, talking back...nothing major)!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Then her mother changed her mind and said she wanted Veronica to come visit for a week. I knew then that we wouldn't ever be seeing Veronica again. I had a bad feeling and everyone was trying to be positive and said she'd be back...but it's official....Veronica is gone and will not be returning. I am so fucking sad that I don't know what to do with myself. Technically, there is nothing I can do because she is not my child nor do I have custody of her. All I can do is hope that Veronica experienced what family love is all about while she was here...and that she will never ever forget what it feels like to be loved and valued. :( Michelle |
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28 Aug 04 - 10:21 PM (#1259261) Subject: RE: BS: Whine Fest From: SINSULL Michelle, I am so sorry. But I do believe she will be back. Unfortunately, she will come back hurt and angry. When she does, sue for custody. Veronica deserves a stable home. And time is running out for the good you do to make a difference. Stay strong, SINS |
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29 Aug 04 - 12:58 AM (#1259298) Subject: RE: BS: Whine Fest From: Shanghaiceltic Hi Michelle, I hope you can stick in there as Veronica will definately need you. For a mother to send a child away as punishement is a crime in my opinion, both cruel and unjust. My father was treated in much the same way by my grandmother, something my brothers and I only found out about in the last few years. Unfortunately for him there was nowhere to go but a string of boarding schools and foster homes and then entry into the navy as a cadet at 13. As a result he grew up as a rather remote sort of person and only in the last years has he been a more open and trusting person with immediate family. Hopefully you will be able to make a difference to this young lass and prevent her from having more heartache than she has already. Sadly if her mother has thrown her out before it will easily happen again. Good luck to you. |
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29 Aug 04 - 01:33 AM (#1259314) Subject: RE: BS: Whine Fest From: KT Michelle, My heart breaks for all of you. Hang in there and hold fast to the knowledge that Veronica KNOWS she is loved by you. That will see her through a lot. Things may well change again. You will all be in my thoughts and prayers. KT |
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29 Aug 04 - 01:38 AM (#1259318) Subject: RE: BS: Whine Fest From: Sorcha Michelle, PM or email Spaw....Catspaw49. I have his e mail if you need it. He's been a foster parent foever and knows what you are going through. |
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29 Aug 04 - 04:39 AM (#1259351) Subject: RE: BS: Whine Fest From: jacqui.c Michelle My heart goes out to you - it must be so difficult to be in your situation. Veronica will never forget your love and care for her and I too think she will be back, but she may lay some of the blame on you for letting her go - children that age don't see the practicalities, only knowing the feeling of not being wanted. I can't understand how a mother can behave in such a way - this is just total selfishness and selfcentredness. Parenting is the most important thing that we do in our lifetimes and it seems that so many parents are so ill equipped for the role. It's a shame that parents don't have to take an exam to show they can do the job properly before being let loose on such an important mission! |
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29 Aug 04 - 09:17 AM (#1259427) Subject: RE: BS: Whine Fest From: wysiwyg Michelle, I'm so sorry for your loss. I know the ground you are walking on better than you can probably realize. It's bitter ground now matter how you look at it. I'm writing from that exeprience as well as from being involved in a lot of others' situations from my husband's work. I hope that Veronica will be able to call you, and I hope you will continue the connection from your end. If you let just a little time pass and then write to her, I would bet her mother will give her the letter. You can do so much to lift her up. The tough part, as I indicated in a post above, will be the boundary issues inherent in any stepchild or foster-child situation. These not only remain but are now more important than ever, and I hope you will get some support so that you can continue to be a strong, loving influence in Veronica's life. Please do not ever forget that you sent back a young lady better equipped to handle whatever will come her way, in her home and in her environment. She has far more power in that situation than it probably feels like. That one is a survivor, and her chances are better now than they ever were before you knew her. I know that right now all you can focus on is the hurt, and your concerns for her wellbeing, and they are valid concerns. But she WILL keep all she gained during her time with you, not only what you gave her but from ALL the friends she made. And she will continue to do what I think she's always done well-- make lemonade from lemons. Again, I'm so sorry for your loss. She (and her two families) will be in our prayers. ~Susan |
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29 Aug 04 - 06:46 PM (#1259563) Subject: RE: BS: Whine Fest From: LilyFestre I just want to thank you for the posts. I feel lost and numb. My husband and I spent the day outside in the country...walking and talking. I really appreciate all the good thoughts and prayers. Michelle |
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29 Aug 04 - 07:22 PM (#1259577) Subject: RE: BS: Whine Fest From: wysiwyg We'll keep 'em coming. Gosh, it's gotta hurt so much. Grieve it strong and loud-- it will go faster and get balled up less with other stuff in there. ~S~ |
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30 Aug 04 - 02:21 AM (#1259628) Subject: RE: BS: Whine Fest From: mg The mother is engaging in emotional abuse and this should be put in writing, perhaps notarized, to the authorities. Granted, they have such awful situations to deal with that they might not respond, but you need a paper trail. I hope you are keeping a journal or something. mg |
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30 Aug 04 - 02:33 AM (#1259634) Subject: RE: BS: Whine Fest From: bet Michelle, I have no words to exprees my sadness for this child and you. How very unfair to you both. There are some great postings above and should be reread over and over. I hope they help. My thoughts are with you. bet |
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30 Aug 04 - 08:47 AM (#1259760) Subject: RE: BS: Whine Fest From: LilyFestre I have kept a journal of many of the things that have happened with Veronica and her mother. It is a very sad log of a little girl who has been repeatedly let down and faced with broken promises. It is also a record of her health and how her basic shots were not up to date, how incredibly BAD her vision was when she came here and yet had NEVER been to an eye Dr. It is a record of Veronica's behavior when she returned from previous visits with her mother, how she has come back with bruises from her older brother and bite marks (on her stomach....that have left scars)from her younger sister (2 years younger). What I have is a record that just breaks my heart. I know that Veronica is not being beaten physically but that poor child has been let down, shoved away and disappointed until it just makes me cry. She doesn't understand why she was sent away while her brother and sister were allowed to remain home. She doesn't understand why "Mommy" doesn't call. She makes excuses for each let down as a means to protect her poor little heart. That day when Veronica's mother called to say that she wanted Veronica to live with her now because the punishment was over, I told her mother that Veronica was doing very well here. She is on the honor roll at school (which she never had been and in addition, her behavior marks were now all satisfactory...which were shaky before), that she had friends here and people who LOVE her...and that she was HAPPY. Her mother said that she didn't think Veronica was happy here (AS IF SHE WOULD FREAKING KNOW ANYTHING SINCE SHE NEVER TAKES THE TIME TO CALL HER CHILD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!). She said she would ask Veronica where she wanted to live. That's all well and good, but Veronica just turned 12 and that is an AWFUL place to put a child in. Should she tell her mother that she wants to stay where she is loved and taken care of or should she tell her that she wants to live with her? Veronica took the day to think about it and I did my best not to prod her in any one direction (although I REALLY REALLY wanted to). She called her mother that night and told her that she wanted to live here, that she wanted to go to school here and have more contact with her mother on the phone and more visits with her (once every other month instead of once every 6-8 months). I guess I shouldn't be surprised even a little tiny bit that her mother went ahead and did what SHE wanted instead of what Veronica wanted. If she wasn't going to allow Veronica to have a say in the matter, why bother asking her and putting her in such a bad position. We told Veronica that no matter what she decided, someone was going to be sad. We also told her that whatever her decision was, we would understand and love her no matter what. It's the best I could do. Her mother called on August 11th and I have been physically sick with this since then. I had a VERY bad feeling and I suppose I knew deep down that Veronica would end up at her mothers, especially after seeing her. It makes sense (to my head anyway) that Veronica has been deprived of affection for so very long by her birth family that any smidgen of attention from them would bring almost overwhelming joy for her. She craves her mom's love and I know that is completely normal. I worry about what will happen when Mom gets tired of dealing with her this time. We also are aware that Veronica has been sent away before. She was sent to Santo Domingo to live when she was very young, she was living with her Godparents in NY for a period of time shortly before she came to live with us. Her mother moved her from the Godparents because they said something that was not complimentary towards Veronica's mother (GO FIGURE!). I have heard countless tales about how the mother doesn't get home until after 8:30pm leaving all three kids alone (in the projects of Brooklyn...the oldest child being 14 and abusive), how they all fend for themselves when it comes to meals and how the mother usually is out of the house before the kids even get up for school. There is SO much more but you get the general idea. Today Veronica would have started her very first day of 7th Grade in the Middle School. This would have been a new building for her and she was incredibly excited about moving to a new building and having a locker. I wonder where she is, what she is doing and if she wishes she were here. My house is incredibly quiet and there's an empty spot that lingers. I haven't cried yet this morning... Michelle |
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30 Aug 04 - 11:19 AM (#1259841) Subject: RE: BS: Whine Fest From: Wolfgang I feel for you and Veronica. It is such a sad story. I would also be davastated. It doesn't help a lot now I know, but in the worst case (for you and Veronica) you'll know you have given her many months of love, affection and security. Wolfgang |
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30 Aug 04 - 01:06 PM (#1259951) Subject: RE: BS: Whine Fest From: M.Ted What sort of formal arrangement was made for Veronica to live with you in the first place? Was it a foster care arrangement? Was there a case worker monitoring Veronica's care, and is there a caseworker monitoring Veronica's care now? If there is, you should contact them and make them aware of the changes that have been made--if not, or if you don't know, contact the people you work with at the Fresh Air Fund and let them know what is going on--they may be able to intervene on Veronica's behalf, or at least to steer you to an advocate of some sort that can-- Also, contact counselors at the middle school and tell them about what has happened, and about your concerns--they may be able to advocate or find an advocate for Veronica, if even half of what you say is true, she needs one-- |
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30 Aug 04 - 05:19 PM (#1260123) Subject: RE: BS: Whine Fest From: wysiwyg LF, Before following anyone's well-meant advice, consult a lawyer who's been around the block in family law. I would think that documenting things now would cast you in the light of a sore loser with an agenda, and the result may be V ending up in foster care where you can't have any contact at all. Please take time to grieve, think, consult, and consider long-term ramifications before you take action. There are a lot of angles to this.... ~Susan |
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30 Aug 04 - 08:05 PM (#1260219) Subject: RE: BS: Whine Fest From: LilyFestre I'm not doing anything now except trying to get through my days. I am not documenting now per say....I HAVE documented quite a bit as she was here...part of a daily calendar of sorts. I have receipts, notes, any correspondance and the things as noted above. I will be taking some action but it will be when I know that I can discuss these things without choking up. Right now, I cannot do that. I'm too close and too hurt right now....let's not forget anger.....I'm feeling loads of that as well. I know that can be productive but at the moment, I'm afraid it would be more of a destructive nature. I really appreciate all the thoughts, prayers, kind words and emails that I have recieved....I don't feel so alone with this...thank you all so very much. Michelle |
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30 Aug 04 - 08:37 PM (#1260245) Subject: RE: BS: Whine Fest From: katlaughing Michelle, what you have done and continue to do is admirable and I wish you, your partner, and Veronica all the best in such a sad situation. Did you have something in writing which authorised you to have her treated, medically , if need be, and appointing you to be her temp. guardian as far as school was concerned? I would think that would count for something, legally. Also, are you allowed to send her cards, letters, or call her once in awhile? After things calm down a little? It sounds as though she knows this, but it wouldn't hurt to affirm for her that she has a safe haven to come to if she just cannot take being at her mother's and decides to take things into her own hands by running away. She's getting close to that age where kids do such things when desperate. This is one of those times when Mudcat really shines; when we can share a sorrow and in doing so, perhaps lessen it, even if it be but a little while. I will include you and Veronica in my thanks givings and *see* the situation wokring out for the highest good of all concerned. {{{{{{{{Michelle}}}}}}}}} kat |
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07 Sep 04 - 07:34 PM (#1266346) Subject: RE: BS: Whine Fest From: SINSULL Any news, Lily? Has Veronica been allowed to contact you? She and you are in my prayers. Mary |
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07 Sep 04 - 07:43 PM (#1266349) Subject: RE: BS: Whine Fest From: wysiwyg Yup, we're still thinking of you and V. ~S~ |
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07 Sep 04 - 07:45 PM (#1266352) Subject: RE: BS: Whine Fest From: LilyFestre Thanks. We received a call from someone in NY...not sure if it was Veronica or her Mom as they didn't leave a message. I will be writing to Veronica this week. This is hard. Really hard. Michelle |
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07 Sep 04 - 07:49 PM (#1266355) Subject: RE: BS: Whine Fest From: wysiwyg Parenting IS hard. We get the grief in different ways, but I would bet all of us raising kids have had our hearts broken, and I think as humans we just have to go through it in one form or another. It's a club that's earned any wisdom, the hard way. We don't always tell how we've learned stuff, but those gray hairs don't just pop up with no reason. One thing you can do now is dedicate this grief to being a better parent for the future. Aim it in that direction, so to speak. ~Susan |
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07 Sep 04 - 07:58 PM (#1266365) Subject: RE: BS: Whine Fest From: LilyFestre Quite frankly, I am a mess. I have been physically sick for at least a month, can't sleep much, can't concentrate on much of anything (and being that this is week #2 of university..this is a problem), I can't eat...lost 12 pounds THIS week, I cry every f*cking morning, my house is a disaster and I don't care....the only peace I have found is in riding around the woods for hours...I am not suicidal but I am pretty fucking unhappy. Michelle |
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07 Sep 04 - 08:04 PM (#1266369) Subject: RE: BS: Whine Fest From: GUEST,peedeecee Not my business, but I've also lost a daughter. Please seek counselling if you can -- it was the only thing that kept me from ending up in a hospital. My very, very best wishes for you, and my heart is with you. |
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07 Sep 04 - 08:05 PM (#1266371) Subject: RE: BS: Whine Fest From: LilyFestre Sorry....venting... And Peedeecee (((((((((Thank you and hugs)))))))))))))) Michelle |
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07 Sep 04 - 08:08 PM (#1266372) Subject: RE: BS: Whine Fest From: SINSULL Too long, Lily. Get some help. See your family doctor and then a therapist if necessary. The last thing Veronica needs is for you to fall apart especially if she is headed back to you. Stay strong. A little trick I play on myself when the world falls apart - pretend it is a year from now and this crisis is not only over but settled to my satisfaction. A form of meditation I guess. "What the mind of man can conceive and believe, it can achieve." |
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07 Sep 04 - 08:19 PM (#1266380) Subject: RE: BS: Whine Fest From: LilyFestre I've been to the Dr. Must be I look a mess because the receptionist came out and gave me a hug when I walked in the door. Nice people...trying to help....it takes time though...and I am impatient and so tired of being sick and tired and sad. I keep telling myself that this too shall pass....it has to. I have a little sign hanging up in my bathroom beside the mirror. As I dry my hair in the morning, I read it outloud to myself.....at least 3 times...and try to keep it all in my mind and in perspective. It says: Good Morning. This is God. I will be handling all your problems today. I will not need your help. So go enjoy your day. *big Sigh* It comes in waves...sometimes tolerable....many times, it just isn't. Michelle |
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07 Sep 04 - 09:15 PM (#1266433) Subject: RE: BS: Whine Fest From: wysiwyg These are MY gray hairs talking: Yup, that's how it goes. It DOES pass but this is how it passes. You get to exercise some choice in how you do it though-- the cleanest way to grieve is by looking at the happiness. Put her happiest picture in front of you-- the Christmas card family-style would be a good approach-- and stick the good memories deep in your heart like a knife to lance the festering parts of the wound. Arrange a chance to fall asleep after the spate of tears, then go for a walk after the nap, and do this cycle again, and again, and again. MAKE yourself balance the crying time with time spent with all your attention on something positive in present time so your brain chemistry has time to recover in between physiologically. Take a lot of extra vitamin C & B because the tears will flush them out. Pee a lot. Drink a lot of water. Use artificial tears. Watch your blood sugar-- this is stress afecting it. NONE of this will make it feel any better, but it will help you manage it and survive it and get through it faster and with more positive lessons learned for later. I swear to God. This is how it is done. And-- call your pastor, OK, he's gotten some parenting gray hairs, too, and can help in areas we can't. Another good person to ask about grieving is Mudcatter Animaterra. Hang in there, you can DO this. ~Susan |
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07 Sep 04 - 09:47 PM (#1266450) Subject: RE: BS: Whine Fest From: LilyFestre Thanks again........lots of good thoughts here and I am SO wanting to take it all in and use it. Food...lots of water? Gross..it's not gonna stay. Blood sugars? Running 377 and up.....no food going in...just the body absolutely freaked out...I am monitoring this and taking the fast acting insulin only as I can't predict for the long term right now. As far as Veronica's picture.....I have put away all but 2 photos of her. I just can't look at her right now....makes me cry, makes me angry, frustrated and just generally wipes me out. I have cleaned out all the dressers in her bedroom. Her toys are all in her room to be packed up on a day when I can sit and cry. My friend offered to come help me sort it all out and I will take her up on it. For now, all Veronica's belongings are going into storage because I just can't have it here. I have ripped up 2 photos of her mother. Calling my pastor....well, I wrote to him and he wrote back. I'd talk to him if I had any clue as to what to say..but I just don't. As can be clearly seen, I am all over the place and yet feel like I am in hiding. Given my choice in the matter, I'd stay home, take care of my husband, animals and house and the rest of the world could take a flying leap. Thanks for all the thoughts, advice and understanding. I'm working on it.... My plan is to send out a card to Veronica tomorrow telling her that we have been thinking of her and hoped her first day of 7th grade went well. I am also going to send her a photo of the sonogram of my friend (who is having twins) as Veronica was SO excited about the new baby to come....she left before we knew it was twins....I'm sure that will bring about that sweet smile. Michelle |
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07 Sep 04 - 09:58 PM (#1266454) Subject: RE: BS: Whine Fest From: mg Obviously you have a very strong maternal nature. Are you or can you get certified as a foster parent? It might help if Veronica becomes available, and God knows there are numerous other children who need help... mg |
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07 Sep 04 - 10:04 PM (#1266457) Subject: RE: BS: Whine Fest From: wysiwyg OK. 1. You're doing it right. 2. Your pastor knows what to say so he'll call YOU, tomorrow, or you could call him and just weep, and he'd know what to do from there. 3. Your plan what to write her is PERFECT. 4. Re-read #1. You can DO this. Keep those photos handy and look at them when you can. It's OK to be a mess. I mean I know it hurts like a son of a bitch and is scary but it is necessary if we are to remain human beans. And.... V is probably not as miserable as you are, because kids really are so resilient-- so don't be worrying about her TOO much. Go back to #1 again. I'm sending you a CD full of pictures via Bonnie or Greg so you can get some visual inputs away from the hurt, for staring time. NOW-- the sugar-- Isn't that a pretty high number? The sugar is no doubt not helping, so I would hope your doc is giving you correct management help. If it ain't under control-- and ain't getting under control-- maybe you need to be in hospital. What does Pete say about that? ~Susan |
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07 Sep 04 - 10:22 PM (#1266463) Subject: RE: BS: Whine Fest From: LilyFestre Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I don't like to cry in front of anyone....maybe why I haven't been to talk to my pastor.... Blood sugars are indeed running high due to stress, illness, etc. Hospital? NO NO NO What does Pete say? He says, I love you. Can I do anything to help? Are you going to eat something TODAY? He's a good egg who is putting up with me and reassuring me that everything is going to be okay. I have not told him about all (but he does know about some)the high glucose levels...he's worried enough. Michelle |
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07 Sep 04 - 10:34 PM (#1266467) Subject: RE: BS: Whine Fest From: GUEST,peedeecee Lord, I could be reading about myself. You call your thread a "whine fest," you apologize for normal human behaviour (falling apart from grief is normal human behaviour); you thank people too much -- hey, be human, let go and howl and stop trying to be perfect and apologizing when you think you aren't. I assume Pete is your husband -- let him hold you and worry about you, and share your blood sugar info with him (he's entitled) and stop trying to Cope and Take it in Your Stride and Deal with it in a Mature, Responsible Fashion. Be weak -- all strong people are allowed and entitled to be weak and to be taken care of. It's not permanent. Lean, cling, rely. If you can take sick time from work, I think you should. You are sick with grief. (Sorry for jumping in like this, but I really recognized myself in your posts.) |
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07 Sep 04 - 10:58 PM (#1266487) Subject: RE: BS: Whine Fest From: wysiwyg Michelle, peedeecee is right. Greg will call you in the next 48 hours-- is tied up in the AM already and the day goes to hell from there. Please, talk to Pete about the sugars. You're supposed to let him care for you-- honest, it's in the Bible. He'll worry more if you do NOT tell him. Blame it on me. :~) Check PM for a new sign. You can DO this. We all think so! ~Susan |
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08 Sep 04 - 08:43 AM (#1266706) Subject: RE: BS: Whine Fest From: wysiwyg Organizing some resources heading your way. ~S~ |
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08 Sep 04 - 12:02 PM (#1266853) Subject: RE: BS: Whine Fest From: katlaughing dedicate this grief to being a better parent for the future. Sounds to me like she's already been an incredible parent and does not need this kind of backhanded criticism. Susan, imo, not everyone grieves the same way, nor needs to. Michelle, PM coming your way, but I would like to URGE you to get to your doc and get the blood sugar under control. That is dangerously high. If you do not take care of yourself now, who will be there for Veronica is she comes back...or for Pete or any other children who may come into your life? {{{{{{{{{Michelle}}}}}}}}} |
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08 Sep 04 - 12:43 PM (#1266872) Subject: RE: BS: Whine Fest From: wysiwyg Sounds to me like she's already been an incredible parent and does not need this kind of backhanded criticism. Kat, in my great concern for Michelle, I forgot that people might not know that we know each other in real life, and I posted what I am sure she understood, and it was not criticism. Obviously you took my comment differently than I meant it, and then didn't read the rest of my posts strongly affirming her. A thread in support of one person doesn't need to become an argument among those willing to help. It's not a competition for who is the best helper. Michelle is perfectly able to choose what help she wants to use, as are we all. She does not need to be saved from whatever skewed view you have of me. She makes her own choices just fine. Michelle, in fact I admire the way you've handled this. I think you are completely capable of dealing with all of it-- the feelings, the practical issues, your health, all of it. I think you ARE handling it. I'm just sorry it's so hard. But you ARE handling it, and with great strength. ~Susan |
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08 Sep 04 - 12:51 PM (#1266879) Subject: RE: BS: Whine Fest From: Kim C Michelle, you have done a wonderful thing for a little girl. Be proud of that, and don't lose hope. In the meantime... ditto everything about the glucose. If your sugar gets dangerously high, you'll be in a world of trouble. Take care of yourself. |
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08 Sep 04 - 02:39 PM (#1266965) Subject: RE: BS: Whine Fest From: LilyFestre Update: I went to the Dr. this morning. He changed my insulin, gave me sleeping pills and something to settle the panic I am feeling. Sooo..I will be a well rested zombie with (hopefully) more stable sugar levels. I am not fond of all the medications but it will work for now. The Dr. kept asking me if I felt any rage or extreme anger or frequent irritation...I don't feel any rage about anything....I am just SO tired. My husband took the day off to go to the Dr. with me, then he took me out for lunch to one of my favorite spots (I think he's really just wanting me to eat something...which I did...not much...but more than yesterday). After lunch, I went to a noon service at my church. I think I heard half of what was said...but that's a start too. The timing of things is quite amazing...some of the things said in church were hitting me directly in the face. There was a woman who walked out of the church with me...someone I didn't know...who asked me if I had children. I told her no (okay..that smarted) and then she went on to tell me that she had 4 children and as soon as she figured out why she kept having them, she quit. She said I was smart. I wanted to tell her that she was incredibly lucky. *sigh* Now I'm home and I'm going to do SOMETHING productive...I don't know what it is yet but I am going to do SOMETHING!!!!!!!!!!! I appreciate all the posts and PMs very much. I reread several of them over and over last night around 2:30am while I was banging around the house, unable to sleep. Michelle |
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08 Sep 04 - 04:01 PM (#1267037) Subject: RE: BS: Whine Fest From: LilyFestre I just sat down and wrote out Veronica's card....signed it with lots of love from Pete and I, all the animals (9 dogs, 6 cats and Henrietta the Hen) and silly drawings. I went in search of her NY zip code, got out my address book and opened it up to a hand drawn note (from Veronica) of bubble letters that reads: I LOVE YOU. Why doesn't someone just rip my heart out of my body, throw it on the floor and dance on it? :( :( :( I give up and am calling it a day. Michelle |
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08 Sep 04 - 04:02 PM (#1267038) Subject: RE: BS: Whine Fest From: wysiwyg Rest well, read PM about sleep vs. insulin, OK? ~S~ |
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08 Sep 04 - 06:47 PM (#1267156) Subject: RE: BS: Whine Fest From: LilyFestre Sleep meds,,,took em an hour agoi. hinking teya re startubg ti wirk, Niteee all you wonderful peop;le.nn Sweet Dreans Michelleee |
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08 Sep 04 - 06:50 PM (#1267158) Subject: RE: BS: Whine Fest From: wysiwyg Someone keeping an eye on you so you don't bottom out on the insulin? ~S~ |
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08 Sep 04 - 06:54 PM (#1267162) Subject: RE: BS: Whine Fest From: SINSULL Writing the card was something productive, Michelle. Congratulations. It is hard for you to see now but you are taking steps towards dealing with your pain. A few bites at lunch - sounds familiar. And that first night of sleeping via pills - heaven. Once you re-establish a sleep pattern, you probably won't need them very often. No rage? You did rip up two photos of Veronica's mother. Rage (anger) is good and healthy. Just make sure you focus it out and not at yourself. "Guilt is anger turned inward" - my mantra through five years of therapy. Also make sure that you aim it at the person who deserves it not at a the easiest or most convenient target - poor Pete. He sounds like a saint. I have a book I used to help me identify and develop some coping skills when my son's addiction became a real issue. The author is a smug "Boy am I good" type but gives some very simple and concrete guidelines for working through a loss. The "Feeling Good Handbook" is more than likely at your library. If it doesn't appeal to you, simply make a copy of the list re: Ten Most Common Misperceptions. Years later I still use that list when trying to find get a handle on a problem. Re: the woman with four children. She wouldn't have parted with the worst of the bunch had you offered to take one. Ironic that she crossed your path. It must feel as if Fate is smacking you in the face at every turn. The ultimate truth is that you are the only real parent that Veronica has ever had. The other reality is that she may very well come back into your life and when she does you will have to be at your top performance both to deal with a child who has almost no stability and the legal issues you will face to keep her next time. Keep taking care of yourself one day at a time. |
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08 Sep 04 - 07:06 PM (#1267172) Subject: RE: BS: Whine Fest From: wysiwyg RE: Someone keeping an eye on you so you don't bottom out on the insulin? I got message all is well on that front. ~S~ |
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09 Sep 04 - 10:30 AM (#1267595) Subject: RE: BS: Whine Fest From: SINSULL Did you sleep well, lady? Ready for some oatmeal or sausage and eggs? Maybe just tea and toast? Give Pete a hug and mail the letter. Mary |
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09 Sep 04 - 12:29 PM (#1267677) Subject: RE: BS: Whine Fest From: LilyFestre I slept ALL night. Started new insulin today and am feeling sick. I think I shall skip class and go back to bed. Michelle |
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09 Sep 04 - 01:13 PM (#1267722) Subject: RE: BS: Whine Fest From: wysiwyg Is the insulin a tad high at the moment? Does that level itself out, or might you need to sip some juice? ~S~ |
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09 Sep 04 - 03:21 PM (#1267805) Subject: RE: BS: Whine Fest From: katlaughing Michelle, after your rest, I hope that this day brings you a small ray of hope, even if it is just the scent of a fall rose blooming or the snuggling love of one of your cats, dogs, or hen (she sounds so cute!) These are all messages of love and support and meant to help your heart to not hurt so much, as are our messages and thoughts which we send to you. When and if you can find the strength within you, it might be helpful to make a scrapbook of Veronica and yourselves...something to share with her if/when she comes back and to look over in the meantime. A way to focus on the good that you DID have with her. Or, write in a journal to her; pour your heart out to her about how much you care, hurt, long to hold her, etc. Also, a guided imagery tape might be of help. I esp. like the ones by Belleruth Naparstek which can find be found here: Ease Grief. Lots of hugs and good thoughts coming your way from Colorado, kat |
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09 Sep 04 - 03:36 PM (#1267820) Subject: RE: BS: Whine Fest From: SINSULL Miss Lily is doing nicely at least that's what I surmise from the "What have you done to improve the world" thread. Brownie Sundaes to hospital personnel - think how many will reap the benefit of that! And being there for a friend. Sonograms are fun but a little frightening too. Good for you, Lily. |
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09 Sep 04 - 04:28 PM (#1267873) Subject: RE: BS: Whine Fest From: LilyFestre I'm having a pretty good day. I have been looking forward to the sonogram (my girlfriend's)for weeks! After the sonogram, we went to another appointment, got some lunch and then took sundaes to the sonogram techs....that was fun and made all of us very happy! :) I blew off every afternoon obligation I had and went back to bed this afternoon. Lunch was not a great idea as food just isn't sitting well...but I did get some more sleep and am feeling better. ((((((Hugs for everybody))))))))))))) Michelle |
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09 Sep 04 - 04:34 PM (#1267878) Subject: RE: BS: Whine Fest From: SINSULL Good news - the Church of the Reformed Quackers has added you to their mailing list. You can expect a barrage of pamphlets and little bags of dried corn. Rest easy. |
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09 Sep 04 - 04:55 PM (#1267890) Subject: RE: BS: Whine Fest From: LilyFestre OHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!! *Clapping my hands and jumping up and down** I sure hope Henrietta the Hen doesn't get to that dried corn before I do!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Michelle, The Reformed Quacker (Good duck gone bad...gone good) |
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10 Sep 04 - 07:17 AM (#1268452) Subject: RE: BS: Whine Fest From: LilyFestre Woke up this morning to, "HOney, you are never going to beleive who called." Veronica's brother called requesting that her school records be sent. Instantly my stomach is in a knot. I called Veronica (woke her up at 6:55am) and asked to speak to her mother. Mother is not there. HMPH. Veronica said that her mom needed a bunch of papers so that she could register Veronica for school. WELL GUESS WHAT? I AM NOT NOT NOT going to do a damn thing to help out that woman. SHE is the one who wants to play MOMMY let her do all the same legwork that I had to do to get Veronica registered. FUCK HER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WHenever I had a question of importance regarding Veronica, her mother's response was always a long, drawn out...I Dooooooooooon't KNooooooooowwwwwwwwwwww. Well guess what? It's MY turn. I DOOOOOOOOOOOOON'T KNOW. I'm not the responsible adult who took in a girl and loved her and cared for her and saw to her education and health cares......no...I'm the fucking moron who was nothing more than a babysitter......an unpaid baby sitter at that. WHy would I have ANY idea as to how to handle the legistics of getting a child registered in school? _()*)(*^&^$#%^$@$@&^%$&*)^%(&*^$&#^%$#*&%^$^%#$*&%(^ AND the mother didn't have enough nerve to call me herself but sent a child in her place.....should we REALLY have expected anything different? That woman....THAT WOMAN!!!!!!!!!(*&%(&#%^$@&%^$(*&^_*(&)(&%*^#^%)*&^*)&$*^%#$@!#$@^%*(&*% Seriously Angry Michelle |
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10 Sep 04 - 10:10 AM (#1268584) Subject: RE: BS: Whine Fest From: GUEST Copying her mother's behavior probably isn't the best way to help the child? Her new school would presumably need to know how she has been doing, as her mother will not be able to tell them. Sure get angry with the mother, but why take it out on the child? Maybe you could apply to be a registered foster carer, most foster children do actually return to their birth parent/s. But part of the procedure in registering you would entail 'seperation counselling', so you would know how to act in the best interest of the child when they leave? |
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10 Sep 04 - 10:26 AM (#1268599) Subject: RE: BS: Whine Fest From: mg Call the school and explain the situation and say the child is at risk and that she be monitored carefully. Then ask them to send the records. mg |
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10 Sep 04 - 01:09 PM (#1268636) Subject: RE: BS: Whine Fest From: LilyFestre My anger with Veronica's mother is NOT taken out on her in any manner. If Veronica needs her school records, her MOTHER will have to put forth the effort to get them. Legally, I cannot request her information to be transferred as I am no longer Veronica's guardian. Her mother in incredibly lazy in ALL aspects of life and stands with her hand out. I WILL NOT be part of it any longer. It is not MY JOB OR RESPONSIBILITY TO REGISTER VERONICA IN SCHOOL IN NEW YORK STATE. I have not been rude to her mother, I have not cursed at her mother but I'll be damned if I am going to continue doing HER job as a parent. How does that hurt Veronica? She has previously learned from her mother that if you look cute and whine a bit, you generally get what you want without doing for yourself. I did my best to UNTEACH that and will not be a model for Veronica along that venue. If Veronica doesn't get to go to school on time, that is her mother's responsibility and she will have to deal with the legalities of that. The mother has decided that she wants to play mama for now, let her tend to all that it requires...including taking a day off to get her child's paperwork in order. You know, I wouldn't be so pissed if the mother (Ana) had taken time each week to write Veronica a note or to call...to stay in touch with her and be part of her life. But she didn't. She abandoned Veronica and we did our very best to help Veronica adjust and make a new life for herself. Now Ana feels gulity, is likely under some observation for fraud from social welfare so she decides it's time to play mommy again. I am pissed and refuse to help because not only has one very wonderful little girl been dragged around, but we were taken advantage of in a HUGE way. And why????? I don't know. We are suffering and hurting and for what? Good things happened for Veronica because of us and I am proud of that....and I want all good things for her....but damn it, I am NOT going to help her mother anymore. I can NOT. Further, if you don't have the guts to put your name on a post where you criticize....don't bother as I won't respond again. Michelle |
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10 Sep 04 - 01:14 PM (#1268644) Subject: RE: BS: Whine Fest From: LilyFestre OH yes.....copying her mother's behavior? We are EVERYTHING BUT copying her mother's behavior. We call, we right, we care, we love Veronica, we never abandoned her physically, financially or mentally. I have never left her alone in the house, I have never left her with people who beat her, I have never left her to fend for her own meals and I have never EVER made her wonder about whether she is loved or not. I have not lied to her, left her at a bus station, forgot her birthday or put any other child above her...so don't even begin to compare me to her mother. Ana is concerned with what clothes she has and what brand of purse she carries.....she is not concerned with if her children have enough to eat or if they have clothes/shoes that fit them. She stands with her hand out to anyone who responds to her.....nope...I am NOTHING like her....NOTHING AT ALL. Michelle |
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10 Sep 04 - 01:15 PM (#1268646) Subject: RE: BS: Whine Fest From: GUEST It wasn't a criticism, but your reaction was precisely why I didn't put a name to it. Good luck. |
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10 Sep 04 - 01:18 PM (#1268650) Subject: RE: BS: Whine Fest From: LilyFestre *Shrug* Not worth my time. |
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10 Sep 04 - 01:20 PM (#1268654) Subject: RE: BS: Whine Fest From: wysiwyg Dear Seriously Angry Michelle, What a GREAT rant that was! Good job! I know that you will do what is best, just as you have been doing. GREAT rant! ~Susan |
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10 Sep 04 - 01:23 PM (#1268658) Subject: RE: BS: Whine Fest From: LilyFestre In addition, you failed to answer my question...no answers? Not willing to listen or respond to my posts...just your own arrogance. If you are going to comment that I am hurting Veronica and didn't want the kind of response you got, then perhaps you should doa better job of explaining how it is that we are hurting Veronica. You know, we the folks who have been the people who have ever showed her a loving home. You bet I'm gonna be defensive....but since you already knew that, it's likely that you are simply looking to push some buttons. Job well done. To the rest of you folks who have been supportive, thank you. I'm done here. I have enough difficulty making it through my days KNOWING that we did the best we could without some asshole who knows nothing of the entire situation making ridiculous comments that bring up a lot of pain. Thanks again. Michelle |
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10 Sep 04 - 02:03 PM (#1268698) Subject: RE: BS: Whine Fest From: GUEST,SueB Maybe you could meet her halfway. You could give her the name and address and phone number of the school Veronica attended when she was with you, again, even if you've already given it to her before. The picture I have of her is that she doesn't function at a very high level. Your anger is understandable, and you're entitled to it. |
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10 Sep 04 - 02:08 PM (#1268701) Subject: RE: BS: Whine Fest From: SINSULL My My My. Sweet Lily has finally had her buttons pushed. I told you anger was good. Vent away. It is all healthy. And get rid of the rage before MAMA calls whining about school records. I actually think our GUEST was trying to help. Glad she was the first to post and not me. MAMA of course had her son call because she doesn't want to speak to you. You may ask questions she doesn't want to answer. You can be the concerned adult in this and call the mother with a name and phone number at the school with an explanation that you cannot legally request the records. They won't give them to you. That is in fact the law. Then quickly change the subject - ask about Veronica. The message that you are not going to be involved in the records will be heard loud and clear. My experience has been that the new school can officially request the records from the old but it may require the mother's signature. Now - more importantly - how did Veronica sound? SINS who loves a good temper tantrum |
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10 Sep 04 - 03:05 PM (#1268737) Subject: RE: BS: Whine Fest From: LilyFestre Okay...okay...so I stomped and had a fit....likely there are more where they came from. The world is full of assholes and our lovely guest is no different. *hanging my head* Sorry about that. I disagree with everything Guest had to say and there's little more to say about that. We were led to believe that Veronica would be here until she graduated from high school. Stupid fucking us.....we believed that and loved Veronica with our whole hearts.....what else can I say? Regarding the school business, Ana is going to have to figure it out on her own. I'm not sure what I'll do when she calls about it. Perhaps I just won't answer the phone. Perhaps I should make empty promises like she did....I could play stupid like she does...but that just really isn't my style...none of those. We shall see when the time comes. Gotta admit...there's a very LARGE childish side of me that wants to give back as good as I've been given. I won't...I won't...I won't...I won't. Veronica sounded sleepy, I woke her up. I didn't talk to her long because I didn't want her to hear me cry. :( It was nice to hear her voice.....I miss her so much. Michelle |
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10 Sep 04 - 03:07 PM (#1268738) Subject: RE: BS: Whine Fest From: wysiwyg *hanging my head* Don't you dare! Chin up! Resume rant! :~) ~Susan |
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10 Sep 04 - 07:05 PM (#1268884) Subject: RE: BS: Whine Fest From: SINSULL NO HEAD HANGING! you finally have left yourself open to an honest emotion - you were used, your precious child was used, you were lied to, you've had enough! My take on this, neither advice nor criticism: By being up front, refusing to do the leg work and giving MAMA the basic information she needs to get the records you remain the functioning adult. Playing the game by her rules gives credibility to her rules. Veronica has to face her friends at school and explain where the hell she's been and why. It is important for her to be there Day One when all the other kids start out new. Do what you can to get her there in a timely fashion without doing anyone's work for them. |
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10 Sep 04 - 09:45 PM (#1268963) Subject: RE: BS: Whine Fest From: GUEST Thankyou Sinsull and Sue B for also being honest enough to post advice that will actually help the child. Let's remember SHE is the victim in this sorry case. |
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11 Sep 04 - 07:31 AM (#1269151) Subject: RE: BS: Whine Fest From: LilyFestre Yep. she is the victim of tis case (through the fault of HER MOTHER)....doesn't mean the rest of us aren't hurting. Guess that doesn't matter though, huh? Michelle |
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11 Sep 04 - 07:48 AM (#1269163) Subject: RE: BS: Whine Fest From: LilyFestre You know, Veroinca is really a victim here. She has been dragged around, kicked out, forgotten, neglected and the list goes on. In the wake of her mother's destruction are 2 other siblings who no longer were able to have contact with Veronica, her NY friends and now people in the other part of her life are suffering. OBviously my husband and I are having a difficult time...but so are the rest of her new family that was made here. My dearest friend, the one Veronica referred to as Auntie Jenn is heartbroken, her daughter, Veronica's best friend, Kayla is at a loss, Forrest, a little blonde haired blue-eyed boy who had a crush on Veronica is beside himself, my mother and Pete's mother.....neighbors and certain people from church who loved Veronica...all these people are hurting to some degree. I'm glad you are able to see that there is a child who is a victim of completely horrific parenting....but there are many more lives that were touched....don't forget that. I have done nothing to harm Veronica, nor would I. The schooling issue really is something her mother will have to tend to as I am not legally able to get the information she needs. Veronica knows the name of the school she attended for the last year and a half and what town it is located in. That's all the information her mother needs to know to get in contact. Also, Veronica has been with her mother for a month now. School starts on Monday for Veronica. If she was so concerned with this information, why wait until the last minute? HEr first priority is not her children and never will be. That is clear in every single thing she does. It's a shame, a dirty rotten shame. Michelle |
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11 Sep 04 - 10:43 AM (#1269245) Subject: RE: BS: Whine Fest From: LilyFestre A very welcomed PM....... "You're being flamed. Classic flaming. The GUEST while acting like the voice of reason throws out snide backhanded statements. You can't win. Every response you give will be turned against you. That's also why GUEST chooses to remain nameless and keeps coming back at you with the same shit - "you don't have Veronica's interests at heart." You do! Of course you do. And you're the only one who does. This one (recognized from her style) is an unhappy bitch who has a bug up her ass against Max. IGNORE HER." Thanks for the advice.....point well taken and appreciated. Love, Michelle |
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11 Sep 04 - 11:41 AM (#1269293) Subject: RE: BS: Whine Fest From: GUEST And that totally irrational diatribe highlights why foster carers should be professionally registered and trained. I nowhere stated what you quoted I did. You have repeatedly ignored questions from many posters re your qualifications/training for 'the job'. I withdraw my good luck, it is the CHILD who needs it now. |
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11 Sep 04 - 11:59 AM (#1269303) Subject: RE: BS: Whine Fest From: LilyFestre *YAWN* Had YOU bothered to read the ENTIRE thread, you would know that we are NOT foster parents. Go fan flames elsewhere....you know nothing of my situation and frankly, I'm not interested. *YAWN* Michelle PS. I didn't see anyone asking for my "qualifications." Besides, I don't see where anyone must qualify to be a parent....would be nice...but such a thing doesn't exist. Buh bye now. Have a good life. Tschuss! |
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11 Sep 04 - 12:57 PM (#1269331) Subject: RE: BS: Whine Fest From: wysiwyg Anyhow, "fostering" a child does not always correspond to being a foster parent recognized by the State. It's an old practice in many cultures. The term now has a legal meaning, but the reality is more than the legality. In other words, one can be in effect "a foster parent" without being "a Foster Parent". ~Susan |
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11 Sep 04 - 01:01 PM (#1269336) Subject: RE: BS: Whine Fest From: GUEST I did read the entire thread. I know you are not a foster parent. Which is why I, and many others on this thread, suggested you could enquire about the process of becoming one. Like I said it would involve a rigorous assesment on yourself and plenty of professional help and training. However you seem to think you need neither. Had this been an authorised fostering the CHILD'S return to her birth mother would be being monitored right now. THAT is in the interest of the child. |
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11 Sep 04 - 01:16 PM (#1269348) Subject: RE: BS: Whine Fest From: GUEST,school office employee Imagine this conversation in a school office: What a lovely girl. Since she's new here, she doesn't have a lot of friends yet, but she'll have lots of them in no time. Academically, we're just not sure where she is. We need to have her records, to know how she has been served in the past, and how we can best help her. If we place her with so and so , she'll receive such and such. On the other hand, she might be better served by being in such and such program. It doesn't appear that mom is much of an advocate for her or we'd have what we need already. The sooner we have those records, the better off this child will be. That said, it may well be that the school can request transfer of records once a child has been registered. Given the name and location of the school, they should have no trouble obtaining the information they need. (Laws may differ from state to state on that, though) |
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11 Sep 04 - 02:18 PM (#1269384) Subject: RE: BS: Whine Fest From: wysiwyg "The Shuddadons" is what we call the kind of focus that is more about what someone ought to have done in the past than about encouraging them toward what they choose to do in the future once they get their venting done. It's amazing really how elegantly people make and implement decisions, once the venting has occurred without interference. An archaic, nearly-extinct species-- shuddadons. ~Susan |
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11 Sep 04 - 02:38 PM (#1269395) Subject: RE: BS: Whine Fest From: GUEST The focus HAS been about what she could do in the future. Interference? Why post on an open forum then? Anyone who professes to know how to care for someone elses damaged child WITHOUT support and professional training is a liability. There is a very slim chance that the birth mother has sought help and counselling,in an effort to improve her parenting skills, and was too embarrassed to phone and ask for help herself. I do not think it was right for her son to do the calling, but can understand why she avoided it. On the otherhand maybe she couldn't be bothered? Let's hope the new school will eventually recognise her problems and direct her to the many skilled bodies that exist to pick up the pieces. |
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11 Sep 04 - 03:00 PM (#1269409) Subject: RE: BS: Whine Fest From: wysiwyg Yes-- I can't think of anyone who does not hope for this: Let's hope the new school will eventually recognise her problems and direct her to the many skilled bodies that exist to pick up the pieces. But as to the focus of the thread, it would seem to me that the thread title reflects a clear intent to vent, and in addition to hoping for the above (italics), I also hope that the venting that has been possible has been useful and will contribte to a good outcome for all concenred. And I, for one, would be pleased to see more of the venting. ~Susan |
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11 Sep 04 - 03:42 PM (#1269425) Subject: RE: BS: Whine Fest From: SINSULL Guest says: "I said it would involve a rigorous assesment on yourself and plenty of professional help and training." I don't know what wonderful world you live in but I was a registered certified foster parent in NYC and the training was minimal. Assessment? They measured my huge bedrooms and checked to see if there was milk in the frig.They also did a background check for previous abuse complaints. Mostly I was instructed to do whatever nonsense the supervising social worker (not college trained but promoted through the system) said. This included lying about supervised visits, removing my son from school for three days for a dental appointment - one to dope him up, one for treatment, one for recovery. I could go on forever. And it hit the fan when I took him after school one day to my family dentist who treated him without painkiller and without incident. First they threatened not to pay for it - that was never an option for me. Then they threatened to sue the dentist. I offered my lawyer's number.He was healthy, happy, for the first time in his life doing well in school...but I was an unfit foster mother because I did not blindly take direction. Shall I tell you about his previous foster parents who beat him with wire hangers until he required hospitalization? They were allowed to keep their other foster children when he was removed - obviously the beatings were his own doing. Or the ones before that who covered him with bruises and human bites? How about the sexual abuse performed systematically by another foster mother's boyfriend? I am with Lily, GUEST. Time to go flame someplace else and preferably on a subject you have some experience in. And back to the original topic - Lily, you have been used. Veronica is a pawn. Rant away and do what you know is best. You have a head on your shoulders and a good heart. Your best instincts will not fail you. SINS |
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11 Sep 04 - 04:28 PM (#1269451) Subject: RE: BS: Whine Fest From: Georgiansilver Whatever you may personally believe...the parent/child bond will always be there in spite of any conditions or environment. Best wishes. |
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11 Sep 04 - 05:25 PM (#1269502) Subject: RE: BS: Whine Fest From: GUEST Sinsull being called an 'unfit foster mother' has obviously had an effect on you. You are quite right I have no experience of how that would feel. But to damn a whole profession because of bad apples within it's ranks is extreme. Presumably then you would not call the police if you woke one night to find intruders trying to break into your home, because of Rodney King's experiences. And then of course there are abusive priests, incompetent surgeons and crooked accountants. They exist, but they are not representative of their colleagues as a whole. I think that a social worker who has been promoted through the ranks has probably had more experience than a fresh faced college leaver, can not see a problem there either. Flaming? No, just not in agreement with you, which in your view amounts to the same thing. WYSIWYG...you are right. She is angry because she cares. Nothing wrong with that at all. |
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11 Sep 04 - 07:27 PM (#1269622) Subject: RE: BS: Whine Fest From: SINSULL Good point, GS. Through it all my son worried about his mother and loved her. Veronica loves her mother. It is natural and normal. I would never recommend criticizing a birth parent to a foster or adopted child. You might as well cut out his heart. |
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11 Sep 04 - 08:37 PM (#1269643) Subject: RE: BS: Whine Fest From: robomatic I remember my first encounter with Moose while skinny dipping in Maine. One pair of very civilized mother and child, nice, compatible, not a lot of noise, adult kept child away from the nasty humans. One pair of noisy moose, bawling calf, mother nipping at it. Reminded me of that quintessential joke from "Fish Called Wanda" Kevin Kline character is making fun of the stutterer, sister character Jamie Lee tells Michael Palin, the poor stutterer, "you've got to forgive Otto, Dad used to beat him." Palin goes: "g-g-g-g-g-g-g-good!" |
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11 Sep 04 - 10:04 PM (#1269671) Subject: RE: BS: Whine Fest From: LilyFestre Just a few minor things: 1. Veronica had a caseworker or she would have never been part of the Fresh Air Fund. 2. I am a Social Worker. 3. I have spent the last 10 years teaching parenting skills and working with a program in my state designed to keep kids at home (least restrictive environment possible). This involved working not only with the parents, but the courts and schools. Don't talk to me about parenting skills. I have a pretty good idea about that. 4. Discuss all the grief coping skills you want...I'll take any of it at this point. I know I'm a mess. I also know that I would never jeopardize Veronica. 5. If you feel the urge to beat on folks when they are really down, how about you bend over and take a splintery baseball bat and park it where the sun doesn't shine, mmmmmmkay? Great. Tschuss. Michelle |
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12 Sep 04 - 09:40 PM (#1270603) Subject: RE: BS: Whine Fest From: GUEST,SueB I think the worst problems are the ones that make you feel the most powerless. Everyone has problems, some huge, some little, but we can almost always find something to do about them, and taking some action, any action, no matter how small, helps. When there is nothing you can think of to do, when your own fate, and that of someone you love, is out of your control, that is the hardest thing in the world. That's where the expression "impotent rage" comes from. When your happiness, and that of a child you love, appear to be in the hands of someone who shouldn't be allowed to keep a hamster, it's intolerable. |
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12 Sep 04 - 09:46 PM (#1270606) Subject: RE: BS: Whine Fest From: wysiwyg For relief breaks, see thread: BS: Eye Candy ~S~ |
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13 Sep 04 - 05:23 PM (#1271414) Subject: RE: BS: Whine Fest From: GUEST shhshshhsss your self |
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20 Sep 04 - 08:58 PM (#1276882) Subject: RE: BS: Whine Fest From: LilyFestre Hmmm....well....I've been working on trying to see the brighter side of things and I've been doing fairly well. Today we did a little searching. It seems that Veronica's mother has the phone listed in someone else's name. In fact, that name has 2 phone numbers within a few blocks of each other. In searching amongst all my paperwork for some information, I ran across another little sticky note from Veronica. It says, "I am SO HAPPY Michelle. I LOVE YOU. I've been very good about not crying lately....even discussed this situation with 2 people in the last 2 days who asked about Veronica (who had no idea) and didn't even begin to well up with tears...but that note....yep...I cried. I just want to STOP crying...I hate this feeling and it makes me sick to my stomach. I feel like I am almost at square one all over again. On a more positive note, my letter to Veronica has not been returned. I can only hope that her Mother (and I use that term LOOSELY) let her read it, or maybe Veronica picks up the mail herself after school...since the kids are home alone at that time. Michelle |
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20 Sep 04 - 10:32 PM (#1276933) Subject: RE: BS: Whine Fest From: wysiwyg That tummy thing is usually fear looking for a way out. What makes you laugh? SueB got in a good one today in the Helpful Hints thread-- might get you started. Laughter is a great way to discharge fear. ~The Honorable Mrs. Cootiesniffer |
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20 Sep 04 - 11:01 PM (#1276943) Subject: RE: BS: Whine Fest From: harpgirl This is a sad story but maybe it will have a happier ending. Perhaps Veronica's mother will decide after a short stint at being her mother again that she is not up to the job. I'm sorry you are hurting, Michelle. The time you did spend with Veronica will be a defining moment in her life, though, I'm sure. SueB said it so well. The worst problems are the ones we feel helpless to correct. I myself seem to have had one problem after another since the hurricanes began to hit Florida. Now I've misplaced my appointment book (I think while I was going over and back to Pensacola) and I have no idea who is coming in, whom to bill, and countless other pieces of important information are lost to me.... My brother is really suffering though. His wife hasn't worked since Charley and he is disabled but unable to get SSD. It affects the entire family...I feel so tired... |
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20 Sep 04 - 11:01 PM (#1276945) Subject: RE: BS: Whine Fest From: LilyFestre Dear Mrs. Cootiesniffer, What makes me laugh? Not much...at least not right now. I can feel my face smile sometimes (a particular story about a woman standing in the doorway of a bell tower and a bunch of rain dumping down on her...for instance) but I don't feel the laughter inside. Does that make sense? Auto pilot is the best way I can describe it. I do things without really knowing I did them....I take notes in class and the next time I look at those notes I don't recall writing them. I frequently have no idea how I got to bed, etc....yep...auto pilot. Scarey, really. Michelle |
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20 Sep 04 - 11:10 PM (#1276951) Subject: RE: BS: Whine Fest From: LilyFestre Hey Harpgirl, I agree...I think SueB pinpointed a lot of my frustration. I'm sorry to hear you are having a rough go of it too. :( There's a very logical part of me that KNOWS I don't have it so bad and that there are many more who suffer far more. My heart, however, doesn't give a shit about what my head has to say...I wish it would listen... I hope your appointment book turns up...sounds like a paperwork nightmare. Michelle |
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27 Sep 04 - 07:42 AM (#1282141) Subject: RE: BS: Whine Fest From: LilyFestre Well.....all of Veronica's clothes have been packed up and are now in the back of my car. I will be taking them to the Salvation Army tomorrow. It just makes me sick. I woke up sick, I sat at the breakfast table and cried some more. It's almost been a month since she left and it feels like years. I don't want to take those clothes anywhere, I just don't. There's nothing else to do with them though...they aren't helping anyone here. Michelle |
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27 Sep 04 - 09:35 AM (#1282220) Subject: RE: BS: Whine Fest From: wysiwyg Maybe your body is telling you not to do this? ~S~ |
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27 Sep 04 - 10:00 AM (#1282234) Subject: RE: BS: Whine Fest From: GUEST How about posting them to her. With some of her favorite sweets and a cheerful letter. Letting her know how everyone is. She might be missing you just as much and if she did phone and ask for x item of clothing, and you tell her you gave them away, she might feel really abandoned.She might want to start up a dialogue with you but unsure of how to start? |
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27 Sep 04 - 10:28 AM (#1282253) Subject: RE: BS: Whine Fest From: Big Mick I am very conflicted by this discussion. On one hand I am reading the posts of a person who cares very deeply, who saw a child in need and did all the right things, put her heart and soul into making a difference for this child, and who is going through justifiable anger and grieving at the injustice of what has been dealt. For this extraordinary person, I want to extend my arm in friendship, caring, and understanding. But the other person I see here is a person, with justifiable rage, who is so focused on her anger at the Mother, and her own feelings of sorrow at HER loss, that it is clouding her judgement. Michelle, it is so clear to me that you care for, and love, this little girl. Don't let your grief cause you to do things counter to the good works you have already done. For example, you take great pride in what she accomplished at school for the first time in her life. If the pride is due to the fact that YOU were good for her, then do nothing to help this sorry excuse for a Mother. But if your pride, and your joy, was for Veronica then you need to put away the anger at the Mother and get those records to that school. In your heart, you know that this isn't about you, but about that girl you have come to love. Whether you ever see her again or not, and I believe you will, your motivations have to be her best interests and not your anger at the injustice of it all. I agree with the wise women here who are encouraging you to vent the grief. But DO NOT be consumed by it. Based on what I am reading, you are in danger of that. You have provided a brief shining moment in this little girls life. It is amazing how those times are often the defining times in the lives of these children. Grieve, sure, but take solace in that fact. AND WHATEVER YOU DO, DO NOT GIVE THOSE CLOTHES AWAY. Pack them in boxes, and put them someplace where you do not have to look at them. I will bet you anything that she will be back for them one day. Might take a while, but she will. And the act of love involved in giving them back will have an impact that is profound. Remember, Michelle, it is not just this girl you made an impact on. It is the as yet unborn children that she will bear that will also be the recipient of your love. After all, you have shown Veronica what a loving Mother really is. Congratulations. With great respect and concern for you, Mick |
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27 Sep 04 - 01:27 PM (#1282406) Subject: RE: BS: Whine Fest From: LilyFestre Rage at Veronica's mother. Sometimes...yes. The school issue has been taken care of. Her clothing on the other hand....I have kept some of her favorites...but I have to face facts that she is not coming back. I have not heard from her nor do I expect to. When she lived here she did not ask to call her mother nor did she write to her unless prompted. She showed so little interest in her own mother that I'm sure we aren't going to hear from her. I have written and I have emailed her and have yet to get a response. I will write again anyway. Keeping the clothes? What am I going to do with them? I'm not going to send boxes upon boxes of stuff to New York. If she ever would return to our home, she would have outgrown all this stuff anyway. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. And being consumed with this....I suppose that sometimes I am. I can go for days without having an issue in discussing Veronica...but for whatever reason this week, I'm having difficulty. I have scheduled another appointment with my Dr. for tomorrow. Part of me knows that I'm in trouble and the other part thinks that I am fine and grieving...and that's all there is to it. Again, I don't know. I think to myself that last year at this time, Veronica had been in a localparade, the last time I saw a particular bluegrass band, she was there...laying in the sun on a blanket tapping her toes in the sunshine....last time I picked apples, she was there, climbing the ladder and delighting in the thudding of apples falling to the ground. I miss her more when I am doing things that I know she would have enjoyed or that we had enjoyed together in the past. I am okay at home except for the occassional note that I find that she left for me..sometimes hidden in the darnedest places. I went to church last Saturday night...something that she and I always did together. The first time there without her was horrible...I cried through the entire thing. This week, my mom returned from her travels and she went to church. Veronica, who always sat between us seemed to be overwhelmingly missing again. Then someone asked me (very innocently, I'm sure) where my girl was? Didn't she want to live here anymore? That did it for me. As soon as the service was over, it was all I could do to get outside without just wailing. I'm considering not going there anymore because it is just HARD. I know it's not going to be easy and I have to work through this but I feel like every time I crawl back up on top of my stool and have a somewhat normal view of the world again, I fall off again. )(*&(*&$^%$@$#@^%)*&^()*^(&$^%@$#!$%#%$(&%(&^(&^#%#$!@^%#*&^%*&^#%$@&%#&^$%$@%$#^%)&*%(&^#%$@^$@%$(&*%)(*^_(&)*&%^%#$@&%$#*^&%(*&^)*^(^&$%^# Michelle |
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27 Sep 04 - 07:03 PM (#1282623) Subject: RE: BS: Whine Fest From: GUEST,peedeecee Michelle, as you may know from reading a different thread some time ago, my oldest daughter died 5 1/2 years ago - actually, it will be 6 years at the end of January. All you can do is what you are doing. Cry. Cry again. Go to the places that you would normally go to in your life, and if they make you cry, then cry. Then go again. It is hard. It is necessary. It is not something you ever get over, but it is something you can get through. |