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30 Dec 03 - 08:59 AM (#1082298) Subject: Accoustic bass guitars From: Les in Chorlton How useful or welcome are accoustic bass guitars in tune sessions? |
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30 Dec 03 - 09:15 AM (#1082305) Subject: RE: Accoustic bass guitars From: Bassic Depends on the session, depends on the other players, depends on the player, depends what you play..................bass(icaly).....it depends! Hope this helps!! :-) |
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30 Dec 03 - 09:24 AM (#1082308) Subject: RE: Accoustic bass guitars From: Bassic Seriously though, a good tune has melody, rhythm and harmony all contained in the tune itself, if you are in touch with those elements in the tune, and add to them subtly, as with any acompanying instrument, then I believe an acustic bass guitar can add significantly to many tunes. I think it is especially good in dance tunes, helping to enhance the rhythmic feel. However others may and will disagree. So tread carefully, you may need to "educate" other players to the differnce adding the Bass can make so pick the tunes you play carefully with that in mind and you will probably start to win a few converts to the cause! Good luck. |
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30 Dec 03 - 09:44 AM (#1082317) Subject: RE: Accoustic bass guitars From: Les in Chorlton Thanks Bassic. I don't have one but i am thinking of getting one. Any recomendations? |
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30 Dec 03 - 10:09 AM (#1082330) Subject: RE: Accoustic bass guitars From: GUEST,stevethesqueeze Les i am very pleased to see your message. most sessions in the uk are to be honest not that great in terms of the music itself. they are great fun admitidly and I play in them myself. session musicians are playing dance music mainly but you end up with a mashed up tune, played too fast, with no harmony and devoid of any real sense of rhythm that a dancer would recognise. I strongly support the idea of including an acoustic bass guitar in the playing of dance tunes and belive it could make a real postive contribution to their quality and could revitalise the washed out versions we so often play ourselves. good luck!! stevethesqueeze |
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30 Dec 03 - 10:27 AM (#1082339) Subject: RE: Accoustic bass guitars From: Les in Chorlton Thanks Steve, I can play guitar a bit and have enjoyed playing in sessions with melodeons and so on. I wonder how long it would take me to learn enough bass to be any use. My son plays guitar and bass and recons about 2 weeks but you know what yoof are like! |
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30 Dec 03 - 10:57 AM (#1082364) Subject: RE: Accoustic bass guitars From: GUEST,stevethesqueeze good luck les. If you are ever in the Vale of Glamorgan come and play with our little country dance band, we play for real dancers and would love a bass guitar to join us!! ps i went to school in chorlton cum hardy if thats where you are.. stevethesqueeze |
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30 Dec 03 - 11:03 AM (#1082370) Subject: RE: Accoustic bass guitars From: GUEST,Martin Gibson Adding a bass of any kind, whether it is an upright bass fiddle or acoustic or even electric bass guitar is the glue which holds the timing and the rhythm together. A bass adds warmth and a bottom. Only one bass is needed in any jam to pull it all together. An acoustic ensemble, especially in bluegrass sounds quite empty without one. |
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30 Dec 03 - 11:19 AM (#1082390) Subject: RE: Accoustic bass guitars From: Les in Chorlton Steve, it is indeed Chorlton-cum-Hardy. Whci school was that then? |
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30 Dec 03 - 11:33 AM (#1082398) Subject: RE: Accoustic bass guitars From: Les in Chorlton Clearly a better one than the one whci I went to! |
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30 Dec 03 - 11:34 AM (#1082399) Subject: RE: Accoustic bass guitars From: Kudzuman Les, Strangely enough the acoustic bass I got has a great voice and exceptional volume but here is the clincher....it's a Hohner! Who knows? I found it used in a music shop one day and picked it up for a play and it was the best acoustic bass I had ever tried except for one of those Guild deep body models from the 80's. Has a odd looking triangular sound hole, but is a great box. Kudzuman |
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30 Dec 03 - 11:38 AM (#1082404) Subject: RE: Accoustic bass guitars From: Les in Chorlton Well... In the end your ear tells you I guess. Somebody did say to me that the sound the player hears can be different to the one the rest of the room hears, but ....... |
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30 Dec 03 - 11:53 AM (#1082417) Subject: RE: Accoustic bass guitars From: Kudzuman Indeed! I have played this in numerous recording projects and in quite a few jams as well as had others play it while I got a listen. It's good either way. Some instruments are really different when you are in front of instead of above them. Amazing miracles of sound waves! Kudzuman |
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30 Dec 03 - 04:23 PM (#1082670) Subject: RE: Accoustic bass guitars From: Bassic Glad to see that we Bass players have some support! Les, I am very happy to recomend the Fender Acustic/Electric Bass that I have been playing for the last three years. I cost me about £350 retail new in the UK, and though it is not the best made of instruments in terms of sheer craftsmanship, it is a robust and servicable instrument and easily found or ordered by most music stores. Most importantly, it is loud enough to be heard in most small to medium sized sessions without amplification. At the end of the day, what price quality if no one can hear it? Try looking at some of the other Bass guitar threads for other recomendations, The Hohner/Guild and Martin/Taylor offerings seem to be the other options that attract support from regular players but they all have cost or availability problems in the UK which is why I found the Fender the best compromise. Be warned, however, that your fingers will take a hammering as these instruments have to be played HARD to produce a big sound. |
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30 Dec 03 - 06:31 PM (#1082754) Subject: RE: Accoustic bass guitars From: Mooh I love the idea of an acoustic bass in sessions, though I expect there will be those who disagree. I never take my double bass anywhere as it's a royal pain in the arse to lug around. Electric basses are frowned upon at such sessions in my experience, and I have been told not to bring one to one session which would benefit from bass, and I don't have an acoustic bass guitar yet. As with any instrument, know when to sit one out, and know to play the role. Peace, Mooh. |
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30 Dec 03 - 07:42 PM (#1082817) Subject: RE: Accoustic bass guitars From: Roughyed When you consider the instruments that people tend to play at sessions they are generally strong on 'top' but the 'bottom' tends to be a bit underrepresented. Like any instrument in a session' if played badly or insensitively it can detract from the music but with a reasonable musician an acoustic bass can be invaluable in giving music depth and rhythm. |
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30 Dec 03 - 09:11 PM (#1082858) Subject: RE: Accoustic bass guitars From: The Fooles Troupe A Piano Accordion (Stradella Bass) can work well to add some depth, but if there is already an acoustic bass, there can be clashes. Of course, some "musos" just have an irrational dislike of the Piano Accordion... |
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30 Dec 03 - 09:33 PM (#1082871) Subject: RE: Accoustic bass guitars From: Bassic Take your point Foolestroupe, have had that happen with Piano Accordians and even some guitarists that use a bass led and fill style, especially the first time you happen to play together. Fortunatly, most have been good and sensative players and we quickly find ways of avoiding treading on each others toes but on some occasions I just put the Bass away and get out the fiddle:-) |
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31 Dec 03 - 01:01 AM (#1082971) Subject: RE: Accoustic bass guitars From: GUEST,Jeremiah McCaw - I'm not a I've found the Fender B-29 to have reasonable volume acoustically. If your budget can handle a bit more, don't make any decision without trying the Tacoma acoustic bass guitar (gonna just refer to'em as ABGs, from now on). As far as volume itself is concerned, you really should consider playing with a pick. If you don't like the hard sound a regular pick can produce, try to find one of the hard felt picks like the archtop swing and jazz players use. Re: electrics in sessions - I've gotten appalled looks (usually in mock jest) when I've walked in with an electric & an amp. When it becomes evident after a couple of numbers that I understand that the volume knob can work in a counterclockwise direction, I seem to have no further problem with acceptance. Also, if there's more than one bassist at a session, taking turns is probably a good idea. Last thing: boiling strings - yech! I tried it; it does freshen them, but I don't think it lasts long enough to be worth the travail. Unless you're very broke (bass strings running from $30 - 50 (Cdn) a set). The recipe: take an old pot that will NEVER again be used for food prep. Fill with water and a cup of vinegar. Boil for 20 minutes or so. There ya go! |
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31 Dec 03 - 04:20 AM (#1082992) Subject: RE: Accoustic bass guitars From: GUEST,stevethesqueeze Hi Les you started a good thread here. i am so glad to see support for more than just a melody line in sessions!! With my little band we are working towards having one or possibly two melody instruments playing mainly unison with some harmony, guitar playing chords and ryhthm and an acoustic bass i went to Chorlton Grammar School for boys many years ago by the way...... |
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31 Dec 03 - 07:33 AM (#1083047) Subject: RE: Accoustic bass guitars From: Les in Chorlton Chorlton Grammer hey. I think it became Chorlton High in about '67, Then Oakwood High when it amalgamated with Wilbraham High in '82 and demolished in around '86. As Oakwood it gained Performing Arts status lasy year and was completly demolished and a new state of the art (sorry) school hasd been built. It re-opens officialy in April or May and has a theatre and out door amphitheatre. Your band sounds interesting, I guess people have to be a bit good to play tunes and bits of tunes etc. at the same time. I was listening to The Best of the Cheiftans and Patrick Street, they seem to have quite a lot going on. Must close I am buring a piece of meat close by. |
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31 Dec 03 - 07:53 AM (#1083051) Subject: RE: Accoustic bass guitars From: GUEST,Sttaw Legend A bass guitar acoustic or electric is indeed the "glue which holds the timing and the rhythm together". I think the bass is under-utilised in certain traditional settings and would add the finishing touches to many songs/tunes. I say this as a violinist not a bass player, the strings are the wrong way round and I cant fit it under my chin. Buy one and barge in... |
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31 Dec 03 - 08:01 AM (#1083057) Subject: RE: Accoustic bass guitars From: Les in Chorlton Thanks, you have given me much courage and was seen last night in Hobgoblin, Manchester pocking about on an ABG. Taking some of the ideas above on a bit I have started a thread about Folk String Quartets and await to see your views. |
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31 Dec 03 - 08:46 AM (#1083073) Subject: RE: Accoustic bass guitars From: GUEST,Whistle Stop I think it would fit well, musically speaking. However, I would offer a word of caution: acoustic bass guitars, even those with "reasonably good volume," are not very efficient instruments, and tend to get drowned out by other acoustic instruments. This may be good, in that people will be less likely to complain if they can't hear you, but if you want to be heard (or to hear yourself), you're likely to be frustrated. I'm sure others will chime in to dispute this, but I have played a lot of acoustic bass guitars, and have yet to hear one that can really hold its own against other acoustic instruments. It might work in a duo, or in a trio whose members consciously watch their dynamics. In a session, forget it. |
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31 Dec 03 - 08:54 AM (#1083081) Subject: RE: Accoustic bass guitars From: Les in Chorlton So, deep descent then? |
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31 Dec 03 - 10:34 PM (#1083651) Subject: RE: Accoustic bass guitars From: cobber We used an accoustic bass with Cobbers for years here in Australia. The model we used was called the Bindarra, made by the Maton company in the sixties and seventies and sounded great. Using the bass really ties the music together and if the volume is there it can help a session by creating a beat that everyone can work to. It was modelled on the Mexican mariachi bass but given a full fretted neck. We always had trouble when we went to America because they would argue that you didn't need to take a bass player with you but should employ an American musician. The same stupid logic occurred here in Australia a few years ago when a local film maker wanted to use John Lee Hooker in his movie and was told he had to use local musicians rather than JL's own band. (We could start a whole thread about stupidity in beaurocracy and its effects on music. Anyway, to counter this, our bass player always listed himself as a Bindarra player on work permit applications. I was the fiddler and had similar problems until I listed myself as a penny whistle player. |
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07 Jan 04 - 09:28 AM (#1087899) Subject: RE: Accoustic bass guitars From: Pete_Standing I've had two acoustic basses, neither of them could be heard in a session unless I used a battery amp snuck underneath my chair. The acoustic bass looks a lot less threatening than it's electric counterpart. I can't recall any objections or snide remarks but I don't take it now because my guitar and bouzouki technique have improved (I still use it in a ceilidh band). I do agree that used sensitively, it can enhance a set of tunes, but the trick is to know when not to play it, something some other session players ought to learn too! I prefer to use index and second finger rather than a pick. It helps with speed and produces a warmer more integrated sound - the click of plectrum on an acoustic with no amp was more dominant than the note. I take the strings off now and again and soak (and shake) them in a jar of meths. They are strong enough to survive this several times (unlike a guitar). In fact, I haven't bought a new set of strings for about ten years! Unfortunately, my guitar and bouzouki have a nasty string habit if I want to keep a decent tone. |
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07 Jan 04 - 09:43 AM (#1087914) Subject: RE: Accoustic bass guitars From: GUEST,Bobjack Would a good bouzouki not be louder and preferable to an acoustic bass? It sounds low and you can also strum the things. |
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07 Jan 04 - 10:07 AM (#1087935) Subject: RE: Accoustic bass guitars From: GUEST,satchel To hell with the funny looks--bring the electric. It's an instrument, not a machine gun--there's nothing "threatening" about it. Piano accordions? now they're threatening... But seriously, Jerimiah Mcgraw is, as usual, right on the money about bass issues. Once the session players realize that you can keep the volume in check and you know what you're doing (this is the most important part), there should be no problems. If there are, they are likely coming from small-minded individuals who think that jamming is somehow on par with curing cancer. Acoustics do get drowned out sorely in sessions, which is why most have onboard piezo pickups. I've played just about every model and like the Guilds the best, but the music really is better when I bring my electric. The funny-lookers soon realize this, too, when they suddenly discover the foundation of bottom end on the same tunes they've been playing for weeks, months, years, decades. Break new ground, bring the electric, and if you can play the tunes, the electricity will be long forgotten by the end of the second jig. I'm sure that there will be objections to this point of view, but as I said above, this is music, not life-or-death. |
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07 Jan 04 - 05:08 PM (#1088211) Subject: RE: Accoustic bass guitars From: Les from Hull I agree Satchel. Trying to play my acoustic bass (Ovation) in a big session just results in blisters. And after all these years I'm not going to start using a pick on it. Fingers (and thumb) give a much warmer, more pleasing sound. I've played my various electric basses in sessions and I've got some funny looks, but if your technique and volume are OK it shouldn't be a problem (except to bigots!). But it's always easier with an acoustic bass and in a small(ish) session it sound fine. Bobjack: my bouzouki is neither loud nor low - certainly not as loud or as low as an acoustic guitar. |
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07 Jan 04 - 07:17 PM (#1088350) Subject: RE: Accoustic bass guitars From: PoppaGator Seems to me that manufacturers wouldn't even *make* acoustic bass guitars except to kowtow to acoustic-only snobbery. I can't see how they can generate enough volume to provide a proper bottom to any ensemble consisting of more than one other instrument! The standard electric bass guitar can easily be played at any volume, including appropriately low volume. Certainly, many if not most professional recordings of mostly-acoustic instrumental ensembles feature a "standard" bass, either electric bass guitar or acoustic bull-fiddle. On my recent trip to Ireland, I saw the bass part of several traditional-style ensembles provided, not by electric bass guitar, but by electric *keyboard* (including a group at that notable trad "Mecca," Gus O'Connor's in Doolin). What's up with that? Is the keyboard for some reason less offensive to the purist crowd than a Fender bass? Maybe it's just that the keyboard is more versatile, but the two or three instances I witnessed saw the keyboardist using his instrument exclusively as an electric bass. This thread also prompts me to think about one of my old favorite instruments, the washtub bass. I realize that there are more semi-competent tub-thumping percussionists than true pickers, but a decent player can produce good melodic bass accompaniment at a suitable volume using a well-tempered tub. Of course, the good old gutbucket is even more cumbersome to haul around than a classic acoustic double-bass, while those acoustic bass guitars are not only inoffensive to the anti-electric faction, but eminently portable as well. |
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07 Jan 04 - 08:56 PM (#1088406) Subject: RE: Accoustic bass guitars From: Bassic Ok, Tuesday night, played my Fender ABG at Barrow 6 Bells session. At various times there were, 1 Scottish Small Pipes, 1 concertina, 2 big acordians, 3 fiddles, 2 guitars, mouth organ, 2 whistles, 1 Border Pipes. At no stage was I completely "drowned out" as far as I could tell, and for most of the evening I was playing well within the volume capabilities of the Fender. And not an amp in sight or a plectrum. (But my fingers were starting to get sore after an hour and a half!) Maybe some of the other catters who were there would please give testemony as to the audability of my Bass? I stand by my assertion that you need a guitar that is AT LEAST as loud as the Fender and PLAY IT HARD. That to me gives an acustic sound that is only beaten by an Upright Bass and is much more "natural" and therefor more in keeping with the sound of other acustic instruments than an amplified Bass Guitar can be. They are just too smooth, sustain for too long and dont "blend" as naturally as an ABG. Physically it wont suite everyone though. I come to it from the physical demands of the `cello, simmilar action, string tension etc. |
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07 Jan 04 - 11:30 PM (#1088459) Subject: RE: Accoustic bass guitars From: GUEST,Johnny in OKC Far as I'm concerned, the best sound is a Mexican "guitarron", if you're man enough to handle it. Enough power there to back up a full Mariachi band, but can be played with infinite subtlety as well. And it's the size of an ordinary 12-string, but a lot deeper. Love, Johnny |
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08 Jan 04 - 07:40 AM (#1088599) Subject: RE: Accoustic bass guitars From: Bassic Would love to "have a go" on one of those Johnny.......anyone seen one in the UK? |
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08 Jan 04 - 08:50 AM (#1088633) Subject: RE: Accoustic bass guitars From: smallpiper Bassics guitar was plenty loud enough at the six bells session I could even hear it through the ear splitting row eminating from my border pipes! |
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08 Jan 04 - 09:48 AM (#1088658) Subject: RE: Accoustic bass guitars From: PoppaGator Bassic, I'll have to stand corrected. I've never heard *you* play your instrument, of course, and I am more than willing to take your word for how nicely the two of you work together. Actually, acoustic bass guitars are extemely rare where I live, and I'm sure I've never heard one played with any level of expertise. Your observation that the electric bass's sustain can be incompatible with an otherwise-all-acoustic emsemble is very interesting, and indoubtedly valid to some extent. Of course, on the other hand, use of the electric bass guitar in the same context is *extremely* common in most commercial/recording contexts, and good players can usually make it work passibly well. Johnny in OKC brings up an interesting point about that big old Mexican guitarron. Isn't that instrument also called a "sexto," or is that something else? |
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08 Jan 04 - 09:57 AM (#1088665) Subject: RE: Accoustic bass guitars From: Bobjack Bajo Sexto, I believe poppa. |
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08 Jan 04 - 12:55 PM (#1088768) Subject: RE: Accoustic bass guitars From: GUEST,Johnny in OKC Bajo Sexto is a completely different instrument. You might be able to find a thread on it from earlier. Love, Johnny |
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08 Jan 04 - 04:59 PM (#1088945) Subject: RE: Accoustic bass guitars From: JohnOttoCleese not sure if it's been mentioned but Ashley Hutchings and Dave Pegg both make full use of their accoustic basses |
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08 Jan 04 - 05:01 PM (#1088948) Subject: RE: Accoustic bass guitars From: JohnOttoCleese sorry, should add in case anyone doesn't know dave pegg is bassist for Fairport Convention and their manager. ashley hutchings is ex-bassist for Fairport, currently playing w/Albion Band. others can probably fill in other gaps, i'm too tired! cheers j |
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09 Jan 04 - 05:38 AM (#1089286) Subject: RE: Accoustic bass guitars From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser) I'm sceptical about the use of acoustic basses in tune sessions. I think it all depends where the player is coming from. Folk guitarists who have switched over to the bass tend not to be familiar or steeped enough in (for instance) Irish traditional music and it's relation to the dance tradition to have the sort of intuitive understanding coupled with instrumental dexterity that would enable them to enhance rather than impede the music. I played for a while in a session in Liverpool where there was an electric bass player and while a nice bloke he clearly didn't have a clue about the music. Plus if the bass player starts plugging in you're going to get other players doing the same. I tried playing electric guitar as a melody instrument a few times in sessions in London and while I (sort of) got away with it I was never very comfortable with it as it just didn't sound or feel right to me. Nowadays I alternate between playing rhythm with a strong bass line and picking out tunes on the acustic guitar |
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09 Jan 04 - 05:49 AM (#1089288) Subject: RE: Accoustic bass guitars From: GUEST,Chris B (Born again scouser) Sorry. Pressed the button too early. I also wanted to say that if you want to accompany traditional music you need to really get to know it. I listened to Irish traditional instrumental music for nearly 10 years before I tried to accompany it and I started out playing it by playing for dancers. If you've just been sitting in a pub belting out the Fureys' greatest hits or the Christy Moore songbook for a few free pints or if you play bass in a rock band and you've been to a couple of sessions and just fancy having a go, then I'm sorry, but you just aren't likely to be up to it. Irish music is a skill and an area of study. You need to do the homework. That means listening to other stuff besides guitarists or bass players. For a guitarist it's a bit like learning a language. When you can start to think and respond in the new language without translating what you've heard into your first language and then formulating a reponse and in turn translating that into the new language, you're starting to get it. The problem is that most guitarists and bassists tend to think primarily in folk or rock terms and so they don't really get Irish music. What you are aiming for is to become an Irish traditional musician who happens to play the guitar or bass as opposed to a guitarist or bassist who plays in a traditional session from time to time. Unless you are prepared to at least aim for that, my advice would be 'don't bother'. This is not music for 'dabblers'. |