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16 Sep 98 - 08:48 PM (#38373) Subject: Donald Where's Your Trousers From: lesley Donald is posted twice at DT - but there's no info. Is this tune traditional? I can't find it in any of my books and wonder if it isn't one of those done recently but has the "traditional sound". thanks... |
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16 Sep 98 - 09:28 PM (#38380) Subject: RE: Donald Where's Your Trousers From: Dave T I don't think it's recent if it's the song I'm thinking of (I'll check out the posting). My wife was born in Scotland and her mom used to sing it. I'll see if I can find out how far back it goes, but I'm sure someone else out there will have some info. |
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17 Sep 98 - 02:00 AM (#38400) Subject: RE: Donald Where's Your Trousers From: Alan of Australia G'day, Recorded by Andy Stewart in the early 60s (he also recorded the Scottish Soldier). I think he either wrote it or it was written for him. I could be wrong - it was a while ago. Cheers, |
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17 Sep 98 - 02:48 AM (#38404) Subject: RE: Donald Where's Your Trousers From: Bob Bolton G'day all, Of course the tune (like all good comfortable-sounding tunes tend to be) is traditional - Scotland the Brave ... more or less. Pipes don't play the top note because it is beyond their range, but otherwise it is the traditional tune (and the higher top note seems to be sneaking into everyone else's tradition, as long as they don't play Scots pipes. Regards, Bob Bolton |
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17 Sep 98 - 03:12 AM (#38408) Subject: RE: Donald Where's Your Trousers From: alison Hi, Have to disagree Bob, it's not Scotland the brave. It's a minor tune, although it is pretty similar. Might get around to posting it later Slainte alison |
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17 Sep 98 - 03:23 AM (#38409) Subject: Tune Add: DONALD, WHERE'S YOUR TROUSERS From: alison Hi, Here it is....
MIDI file: DONALDTR.MID Timebase: 480 Name: Donald, where's your trousers This program is worth the effort of learning it. To download the March 10 MIDItext 98 software and get instructions on how to use it click here ABC format: X:1
Slainte alison |
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17 Sep 98 - 09:54 AM (#38419) Subject: RE: Donald Where's Your Trousers From: MMario (lpola@edutech.org) hmmmmm... wondering if there is a tune to to this I have never heard, because at least to MY ear "Donald Where's Your Trousers" sounds NOTHING like "Scotland the Brave" No documentation, but I was once told that this song came out around WWII - and my Dad claims to have heard it then. I would be VERY suprised if the lyrics were older then Victorian and suspect much younger. |
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17 Sep 98 - 05:53 PM (#38464) Subject: RE: Donald Where's Your Trousers From: Tim Jaques tjaques@netcom.ca Harry Lauder, isn't it, which would make it pre-WWII.
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17 Sep 98 - 07:30 PM (#38474) Subject: RE: Donald Where's Your Trousers From: Helen I remember the song - used to hear it on the radio in my youth (50's - 60's). I would think it would be 20th century but I am sure it is based on an older tune. The one I was thinking of was Marie's Wedding, which isn't right either, I don't think. Helen |
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17 Sep 98 - 08:24 PM (#38486) Subject: RE: Donald Where's Your Trousers From: alison Hi, to be honest, the chord sequence (Em D) and tune is much closer to "What shall we do with the drunken sailor" than any of the scottish tunes mentioned. Have a go at using the miditxt above, it should work. Slainte alison |
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17 Sep 98 - 10:22 PM (#38506) Subject: RE: Donald Where's Your Trousers From: hrodelbert Right Alison! or should I say correct, my band does a medley of Country Joe Macdonalds 'Save the Whale', Drunken Sailor and of course 'Donald where's your trousers'precisely because it has a "minor" feel. Not much connection between the lyrics though although it could be considered funny with a slight stretch of the imagination Ta Hrodelbert |
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18 Sep 98 - 02:38 PM (#38537) Subject: RE: Donald Where's Your Trousers From: Dale Rose I checked on Andy Stewart's "A Scottish Soldier" album, Epic 19027, 1963. The authors are listed as Grant-Stewart, published by Peter Maurice Music Co. Ltd. (ASCAP) Several of the songs on the album are listed as traditional or traditional~~arranged by whoever, so I would assume that it is not a case of his taking credit for something that was not his. Though not definite on this point, the album notes would indicate that the single came out at least two years before that. It was his first single release. Oh, and the listing says troosers, not trousers! |
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19 Sep 98 - 02:42 AM (#38586) Subject: RE: Donald Where's Your Trousers From: Joe Offer Say, alison, how does an Australian pronounce "trousers"? We say "TROW (like "HOW")-sers" here in California. Well, actually, I guess the word here is usually "slacks." Back home in Wisconsin, it's "pants." -Joe Offer, who prefers "jeans"- |
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19 Sep 98 - 06:48 AM (#38592) Subject: RE: Donald Where's Your Trousers From: Alan of Australia G'day Joe, An Aussie pronounces "trousers" like nobody else on earth! Certainly nothing like Alison does. But allowing for accents it's much like your pronunciation. We'd also usually say "pants". "Trousers" seems a little more formal.
Cheers, |
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19 Sep 98 - 07:33 AM (#38595) Subject: RE: Donald Where's Your Trousers From: alison Hahaha alan, You've never said trousers properly (ie. like me) in your life. To answer your question Joe, an aussie would probably pronounce it"traaasaaas", (wouldn't you Alan??!!). I know it's a generalisation but most Aussies seem to replace "er" at the end of any word with "aa". Slainte alison (in a pair of shorts) |
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19 Sep 98 - 07:40 AM (#38596) Subject: RE: Donald Where's Your Trousers From: alison PS. I can't even think of how to write phonetically the way us Belfast people pronounce the "ow" sound in trousers. slainte alison |
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19 Sep 98 - 01:08 PM (#38616) Subject: RE: Donald Where's Your Trousers From: Kiwi When I've heard it sung (usually by regimentally dressed Scotsmen at the NY REnaissance Festival), the last line of the chorus was sung as "Donal', where's yer troosers?" Slán, Kiwi |
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19 Sep 98 - 07:56 PM (#38660) Subject: RE: Donald Where's Your Trousers From: Barbara Yup, I originally heard it back in the late 50s or early 60s from Canadian/Scots rugby friends, and they sang "Doe-nal' whar's yer troosers?" (Except for the verse about the ladies in London, and that one was done very uppah crust Brit.) So it's just a question of how braid your Scots is. Blessings, Barbara |
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19 Sep 98 - 08:22 PM (#38663) Subject: RE: Donald Where's Your Trousers From: Alan of Australia Alison! "traaasaaas"???? What's that?? We pronounce it properly, diphthong and all. As for the "er" sound, we pronounce it "er", not "errr". Queen's English you know. The 'r' is not pronounced in its own right, it is simply a vowel modifier. Humph, |
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19 Sep 98 - 08:25 PM (#38664) Subject: RE: Donald Where's Your Trousers From: Helen The other Aussie words for trousers are "duds" and "strides". I'm sure there are more - never call something by its real name if you can think of a colourful alternative - but I don't have a Macquarie Thesaurus so I can't give you the others. Helen |
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19 Sep 98 - 08:31 PM (#38665) Subject: RE: Donald Where's Your Trousers From: alison Alan Ok maybe there were a few too many "a's". I remember my Dad playing the single, and yes it was pronounced "Donal where's yer troosers". There was a groovy bit in the middle where Andy Stewart did an Elvis impersonation........ well I was very young at the time. No doubt the single is still gathering dust back home. I like the idea of sticking it into a collection of tunes though. Slainte alison
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19 Sep 98 - 08:57 PM (#38671) Subject: RE: Donald Where's Your Trousers From: Alan of Australia G'day, I also remember Andy Stewart doing the song live in Oz, wearing a kilt and when he sang "Let the winds blow high let the winds blow low" he did a high kick. The next line came out: "Ha ha ha and now you know". It was at the wrong angle for me so I'm still none the wiser. Cheers, |
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20 Sep 98 - 09:39 PM (#38762) Subject: RE: Donald Where's Your Trousers From: Helen Well, Alan, all I can say is God help us all if Sharon Stone ever buys a kilt. ;-> Helen |
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20 Sep 98 - 10:30 PM (#38765) Subject: RE: Donald Where's Your Trousers From: Alan of Australia Helen, I don't know.........
Cheers, |
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20 Sep 98 - 10:31 PM (#38767) Subject: RE: Donald Where's Your Trousers From: Alan of Australia Well, actually in Sharon Stone's case we probably do.... |
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21 Sep 98 - 12:25 AM (#38782) Subject: RE: Donald Where's Your Trousers From: Bob Bolton AAAArgh!!
I just came back after 4 days elsewhere to discover that in my reply of 17 September I got terribly confused between this song and the other Tin Pan Alley ripoff of a Scots song ... the name of which has mercifully escaped me, but it had lines about: ... I'll meet her at the shore Sorry about the confusion (yours as well). Regards, Bob Bolton |
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22 Sep 03 - 01:43 PM (#1023076) Subject: Lyr Add: DONALD, WHERE'S YOUR TROOSERS From: GUEST,Rosanne The tune is close to drunken sailor but not the same tune at all. Here are the words: (I'll try to stick to the phonetic pronunciation used in the song) DONALD WHERE'S YOUR TROOSERS? Words by Andy Stewart, music by Neil Grant, 1960. As recorded by Andy Stewart
1. I've just come down from the Isle of Skye.
CHORUS: Let the wind blow high; let the wind blow low.
2. A lassie took me to a ball,
3. Now I went down to London town,
4. To wear the kilt is my delight.
5. The lassies want me, every one. |
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22 Sep 03 - 02:16 PM (#1023096) Subject: RE: Donald Where's Your Trousers From: Malcolm Douglas There are two sets of lyrics in the DT: DONALD WHERE'S YOUR TROUSERS Anglicised text from a record by some outfit called The Irish Rovers. DONALD WHAUR'S YER TROOSERS? Text from unnamed source. Neither of the above credit the writer(s). I've remarked elsewhere that the tune used by Andy Stewart is the same as the one A. L. Lloyd used for Jack Orion (his re-write of Glasgerion); though obviously they are not identical. I don't know which of them got to it first, though, or what it was originally called; but I'm inclined to think that it pre-dates both songs. |
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23 Sep 03 - 10:33 AM (#1023480) Subject: RE: Donald Where's Your Trousers From: Hamish Although I rather like the idea implicit in "You canna put the brakes on a highland man", I ratherthink it's "You canna put the breeks on a highland man". (Breeks are strides, duds, traasaas, etc) |
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23 Sep 03 - 10:39 AM (#1023488) Subject: RE: Donald Where's Your Trousers From: akenaton "Ye cannae tak the breeks aff a Hielan man" As of course, Hielan men dont wear breeks !!...B W Ake |
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23 Sep 03 - 10:51 AM (#1023496) Subject: RE: Donald Where's Your Trousers From: Kevin Sheils Malcolm I believe that at one of the early National Folk Festivals at Loughborough Bert was asked where he got the tune for Jack Orion. He replied that it's "Donald wheres....etc", so I guess that DWYT came first of those two. I was almost certainly there, as I rarely missed Bert's talks, but I can't recall hearing the quote but have been told by others. |
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23 Sep 03 - 11:01 AM (#1023505) Subject: RE: Donald Where's Your Trousers From: Malcolm Douglas Thanks, Kevin. I've been wondering about that for ages! You wouldn't happen to know whether there was any connection between Bert's tune for The Recruited Collier and Ewan MacColl's for Sweet Thames, perhaps? |
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23 Sep 03 - 05:42 PM (#1023847) Subject: RE: Donald Where's Your Trousers From: tuggy mac here in yorkshire there called keks |
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23 Sep 03 - 07:31 PM (#1023941) Subject: RE: Donald Where's Your Trousers From: Reiver 2 My paternal grandmother's name was True, originally Trew. So I did a little research on the name. Nobody asked, but I thought some of you might find this interesting. I did. From the Irish Gaelic "trius" and the Scots Gaelic "triubhas" which were singular nouns used to denote "close fitting shorts." In Scotland, while Highlanders traditionally wore the kilt, Lowlanders generally wore what we now call "pants", a garment with legs that was drawn on over the feet (hence also the term "drawers"). In Gaelic these were referred to as "trews" or "trouse", the term being borrowed into English in the 16th century as "trewsers" or "trousers". After the 1745 rising in support of Bonnie Prince Charlie (Chairlie) was put down by the English forces of King George II, the wearing of the kilt was proscribed. Many Highlanders had their kilts sewn into trews and "tartan trews" became a common form of apparel in the Highlands for many years. Sources: Ayto, John, "Dictionary of Word Origins". Mackie, J.D., "A History of Scotland". Reiver 2 |
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23 Sep 03 - 07:41 PM (#1023950) Subject: RE: Donald Where's Your Trousers From: Joybell I saw Andy Stewart (on TV ) when he toured here in Australia in the 1960s. He did that high kick -- and he had under his kilt -- wait for it -- another little kilt!! |
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23 Sep 03 - 08:23 PM (#1023977) Subject: RE: Donald Where's Your Trousers From: Strupag If Donald really came from Skye he would be talking about a "trooser" and not "trousers" |
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23 Sep 03 - 08:40 PM (#1023989) Subject: RE: Donald Where's Your Trousers From: Reiver 2 Yes, I think any Scots singer would say "troosers" or "trewsers" and not "trousers." I've never heard it any other way than "troosers". Reiver 2 |
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24 Sep 03 - 05:03 AM (#1024183) Subject: RE: Donald Where's Your Trousers From: Jim McLean When Andy Stewart switches to a 'pan loaf' accent, he says 'trowsers', which highlights his Scottish pronunciation of 'troosers. |
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24 Sep 03 - 06:01 AM (#1024212) Subject: RE: Donald Where's Your Trousers From: Murray MacLeod This notable composition IMHO ranks second only to the "Rambling Rover" as a contender for the official Scottish National Anthem. The tune of course is none other than "Johnnie Cope", very slightly modified. Murray |
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24 Sep 03 - 01:21 PM (#1024386) Subject: RE: Donald Where's Your Trousers From: GUEST,Philippa Elizabeth Stewart sings a song about Donal's misadventures with the lasses. The tune of "Hey Donal, Hi Donal" is similar to the tune of "Donal Whaur's [Faurs/Where's] Yer Troosers" by the way, I don't see why we can't spell "troosers", "roond", "hoose" etc with the standard "ou" and pronounce those letters as we do in "you", "youth" and "uncouth" |
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24 Sep 03 - 01:28 PM (#1024390) Subject: RE: Hey Donal From: GUEST,Philippa the song Elizabeth Stewart sings is very different from the Hey Donal, Ho Donal which is posted elsewhere on the 'cat (attributed to Mary Brookbanks) |
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25 Sep 03 - 01:04 PM (#1024760) Subject: RE: Donald Where's Your Trousers From: RoyH (Burl) Bert Lloyd told me that he based his tune for 'Jack Orion' on 'Donald Where's Your Troosers'. I think the tune matched the lyric perfectly, another example of Bert's "cobbling together" hitting the spot. Furthermore, in my opinion Bert's recorded version of 'Jack Orion', with Dave Swarbrick playing fiddle, is superb. |
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26 Sep 03 - 04:34 AM (#1025068) Subject: RE: Donald Where's Your Trousers From: Kevin Sheils Glad to have my understanding of Bert's use of the tune confirmed Burl. Was that info given at one of Bert's talks at the National, as I understand it was? Also, following up on Malcolm's reply to my earlier posting, I hadn't made the "Sweet Thames/Recruited Collier" tune connection but can hear it now you've mentioned it (so many tune connections it's not always easy to spot them all!). I've got the vinyl of The Critic's Group LP of Sweet Thames flow softly so, if I can dig it out easily, I'll check the boolet notes and see if there's a mention. |
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26 Sep 03 - 06:59 PM (#1025359) Subject: RE: Donald Where's Your Trousers From: John Nolan For what it's worth, Glasgow rhyming slang covers its bets with troosers (winners and losers) and trousers (Callard and Bowsers)- the last being a toffee maker. |
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26 Sep 03 - 07:11 PM (#1025367) Subject: RE: Donald Where's Your Trousers From: tuggy mac murry mcleod. johnie cope is a fine song! Tuggy mac |
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27 Sep 03 - 01:10 PM (#1025670) Subject: RE: Donald Where's Your Trousers From: RoyH (Burl) Kevin, Bert told me that in a conversation at the old NTMC years ago. He said it with a big grin. he knew I would be amazed. I always found Bert quite candid about words and tunes he had , in his own phrase, 'cobbled together'. The results seemed to come out fine in my opinion. |
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27 Sep 03 - 11:34 PM (#1025683) Subject: RE: Donald Where's Your Trousers From: Malcolm Douglas Thanks for that, both of you. I was baffled as to which of them had it first. |
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28 Sep 03 - 01:50 AM (#1025701) Subject: RE: Donald Where's Your Trousers From: Q (Frank Staplin) There are several songs called "Highland Laddie," but one has the verse: If I were at free to chuse To be the wealthiest lowland lady, I'd take young Donald without trews, With bonnet blue and belted plaidy (pladdy). (Bodleian Library, several copies, two with old fonts where the s looks like an f- prob. close to 1800) Perhaps the lyricist of "Donald....." knew this old song. |
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28 Sep 03 - 09:45 PM (#1026078) Subject: RE: Donald Where's Your Trousers From: GUEST,Julia I thought a "dipthong" was what Tarzan wore swimming... HE certainly didn't wear troosers, or trousers! |
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10 Oct 03 - 08:49 PM (#1033485) Subject: RE: Donald Where's Your Trousers From: Reiver 2 Only during the scenes where he was swimming, Julia! :-) Reiver 2 |
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25 Jan 04 - 06:58 AM (#1100862) Subject: RE: Donald Where's Your Trousers From: GUEST,Jeff, Aberdeen ( Scotland) and i thocht this was just a funny old song.......i never imagined it would provoke so much intelligent discourse and intellectual disection..... i`m sure Andy will be "dirlin` in his grave" and chortling all the way to the great ceileidh in the sky at the thought of so many people taking so much time to discuss a daft song about a laddie in a kilt..... |
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23 Mar 04 - 07:36 PM (#1144340) Subject: RE: Donald Where's Your Trousers From: GUEST This is fantastic! My father had his own bagpipe band and played the pipes for 40 years. Due to advancing age and health issues, he has recently retired from it, and is struggling with the loss of his beloved music and band performing. I am writing a story for him to celebrate his life of bagpipes but am having difficulty finding the lyrics to a few traditional songs that I am referencing in my story. I was at my wit's end to find the lyrics to "Donald," a song I frequently heard during my childhood when my parents played their Andy Stewart records. I searched the Internet till I found this site and here it is! Thank you all for your intersting commentary. By the way, I am also looking for the lyrics to: "Oh, I'm a Scottish fiddler. I fiddle all the day....... Oh, I'll just keep on fiddlin' till the day I die." Andy Stewart sang this, too. "When the pipes and singing and the kilts are swinging, and the ....the old pipe band.....Hear them ring, hear them sing! They're off....the old pipe band." Traditional filk song. If anyone has any ideas, please let me know! |
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23 Mar 04 - 07:44 PM (#1144351) Subject: RE: Donald Where's Your Trousers From: Murray MacLeod ..............."My father had his own bagpipe band "........... Are we graced here on Mudcat by the presence of the heir to the Duke of Atholl ? just in case we are, may I direct your Grace to this thread on Tunes of Glory, where you will find not only the full lyrics to the second song about which you enquire, but also the guitar chords. It just gets better and better doesn't it ..... |
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24 Mar 04 - 04:04 AM (#1144583) Subject: RE: Donald Where's Your Trousers From: GUEST,Boab Anyway---shouldn't the title be "Donald, where ARE your trousers"? [In a flippant mode tonight-----] |
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22 Aug 08 - 02:49 PM (#2420246) Subject: RE: Donald Where's Your Trousers From: GUEST,blind at first sight you know, i love this song, the irish rovers do a brilliant version, although i always imagine groundskeeper willy from the simpsons doing this song :) |
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23 Aug 08 - 07:32 AM (#2420593) Subject: RE: Donald Where's Your Trousers From: goatfell It's Donald Whaur's yer Troosers? and it was written by Andy Stewart and Grant and it is not Scotland the brave which was written by Cliff Hanley |
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23 Aug 08 - 08:56 AM (#2420619) Subject: RE: Donald Where's Your Trousers From: Bee Was my Dad's favourite song for a long time - one of a very few he actually tried to sing. |
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23 Aug 08 - 06:23 PM (#2420886) Subject: RE: Donald Where's Your Trousers From: Jack Campin I believe the closest traditional antecedent to the tune is "Highland Harry", not "Johnnie Cope". "Highland Harry" is late 18th century. Beethoven arranged it at Thomson's instigation, which may be why it ended up only slightly modified as the main theme of Schubert's "Quartettsatz" in C minor. It got around. |
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23 Aug 08 - 06:44 PM (#2420890) Subject: RE: Donald Where's Your Trousers From: GUEST,Dave MacKenzie In English, of course one would say "Donald, where are your trousers?": However in Scots the rules of grammar different, and "Donald, whaur's yer troosers?" is correct. There's also the added problem that if you spell words phonetically in Scots, you often come out with the standard English spelling, eg night, laugh, plough. |
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23 Aug 08 - 06:53 PM (#2420899) Subject: RE: Donald Where's Your Trousers From: Murray MacLeod it has often puzzled me, on the occasions when such things come to mind, why "trousers" should be a plural noun in the first place. after all, nobody with the possible exception of Long John Silver has ever owned "a trouser" , have they ? the usage has also , curiously, emigrated across the pond, where men wear "pants" instead of trousers, but still in the plural. I would hazard a guess that this usage is a unique quirk of linguistics, but am as always prepared to be proved wrong. |
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23 Aug 08 - 07:34 PM (#2420916) Subject: RE: Donald Where's Your Trousers From: GUEST,Dave MacKenzie My father, being a Gaelic speaker owned a trouser (actually several), but I don't think I can remember him ever using the plural form. |
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23 Aug 08 - 07:39 PM (#2420918) Subject: RE: Donald Where's Your Trousers From: Murray MacLeod did he have a separate trouser for each leg, Dave ? I quite fancy the idea of having a right trouser and a left trouser, not necessarily in matching colours ... |
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23 Aug 08 - 10:12 PM (#2420975) Subject: RE: Donald Where's Your Trousers From: Effsee Dave MacKenzie, if your father was a Gaelic speaker , he would have owned "an truish". Not being a Gaelic speaker, I don't know if that is prural or singular. It's obviously the root of the word "trews", so would possibly suggest prural. |
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24 Aug 08 - 08:03 AM (#2421119) Subject: RE: Donald Where's Your Trousers From: GUEST,Jeff If Guest Dave MacKenzie is the Dave MacKenzie of Chicago past and Nashville present, please contact Dean Milano @ Deanguy@ameritech.net as he's doing a book on the Chicago music scene of the 60's and 70's. He needs pictures and stories. You were one of most important singer-songwriters/blues player of that era. Your kindnesses to me, personally during that time I've never forgotten or had the opportunity to thank you for properly and wish to now, though it's a bit of a thread hi-jack. Thank you, Dave. You were/are a class guy and generous w/your time/knowledge to a scared young man. Apologies to the OP for the diversion, but Mr. MacKenzie had a profound effect on my life though he was/is unaware...'til now. Sincerely, Jeff Jones |
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24 Aug 08 - 12:03 PM (#2421218) Subject: RE: Donald Where's Your Trousers From: Jim McLean I'm sure this was mentioned before but the tune is... let me quote from a McPeake Family sleeve notes on a Topic LP, 12T 87.... An Durd Fainne: The tune is relatively old, being a Jacobite air from the 1690s, but the words are fairly recent, written in 1909 by Patrick Pearse who, seven years later, was for a brief period the President of the Provisional Government of Ireland before he was shot by the British in May4th, 1916. The chorus, which is adapted to that of the Jacobite song, says: Welcome to our victorious army. Somr day Ireland will be free of foreigners. In the late 50s, Thurso Berwick wrote a song called 'Lucky Wee Prince Chairlie' to the same air. |
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24 Aug 08 - 12:11 PM (#2421222) Subject: RE: Donald Where's Your Trousers From: Jim McLean PS it's in the Mudcat under Oro! Se Do Bheatha Bhaile |
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24 Aug 08 - 12:43 PM (#2421248) Subject: RE: Donald Where's Your Trousers From: Malcolm Douglas Yes, it's been mentioned before; by you, as it happens, in thread Same Tune? Drunken Sailor/Oro se do. I still can't agree with you, though. Those tunes (and 'Johnny Cope', 'Highland Harry' and many others) are based on a very simple and common progression -'passamezzo antico', according to the Fiddler's Companion site- and it isn't necessary for them to be related in any linear sense in order to account for their similarity in sound. Andy Stewart may just have produced an effective pastiche of a pipe march; or, if he consciously based it on an existing tune, there are more likely candidates than 'An Durd Fainne'. |
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24 Aug 08 - 01:18 PM (#2421270) Subject: RE: Donald Where's Your Trousers From: Jim McLean The Oro se do tune was well known in the fifties and later in the folk song circles at least in the West of Scotland, and at the time Andy Stewart was singing 'on the telly' it was the common concensus among 'folkies' that his tune was based on the Oro se tune. I think I'm right in saying that the co-writer, Grant, was in actual fact Iain Macfadyen, the boss of BBC Scotland at the time, and a good friend of mine who knew the Oro song well. He was also co-writer of 'The Scottish Soldier' also based on a trad tune. Iain wasn't a musician but the collaboration was pecuniary, sharing credits, and tunes were usually just suggestions. Malcolm, you mentioned more likely candidates than'An Durd Fainne'. Which ones, out of interest? |
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24 Aug 08 - 02:27 PM (#2421304) Subject: RE: Donald Where's Your Trousers From: Lighter I'm with Malcolm on this. All three tunes have similarities, but that doesn't prove anything about a line of descent. Have been (like Jim) familiar with all three for years, but never made the connection myself. OTOH, "Jack Orion," as mentioned elsewhere, is very similar to "Donal." "Sailor" and "Oro" prove that "Donal" is in every material way a "recent folk tune." Except for copyright purposes of course. |
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24 Aug 08 - 03:20 PM (#2421327) Subject: RE: Donald Where's Your Trousers From: Malcolm Douglas If pressed, I'd have gone with Jack on 'Highland Harry', I think; though really I'd have expected 'Donald' to be pastiche with no particular specific model. 'Common concensus' is often no more than 'general assumption' and people do make all sorts of claims here without backing them up; but if Jim has inside information that the rest of us aren't privy to (the Iain Macfadyen connection, say) then that may put a different face on things. Beside the generic structure, the actual melodies aren't close enough to trace one directly to the other unless the link is confirmed (as here, perhaps, if Jim's recollection is accurate) by means other than musical ones. |
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24 Aug 08 - 04:33 PM (#2421376) Subject: RE: Donald Where's Your Trousers From: Jim McLean Malcolm, unfortunately both 'writers' are dead but I can put my hand on my heart and say MacFadyen 'wrote' the tune from Oro and Stewart'wrote' the words. I was privy to their company and actually wrote for Andy Stewart myself. I wrote a song for him on his regular TV show, in Scotland. |
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24 Aug 08 - 05:42 PM (#2421414) Subject: RE: Donald Where's Your Trousers From: Malcolm Douglas Fair enough, then; thanks for clearing that up. That sort of insider information is what is needed when questions like this arise; and now we know that it comes from actual knowledge rather than speculation. I confess that I'm a little surprised; but that's nothing new: the obvious answer isn't always the right one. |
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24 Aug 08 - 08:02 PM (#2421479) Subject: RE: Donald Where's Your Trousers From: Lighter Even though we know the name of the melodist, the *tune* remains a "folk tune" in form and connections. (Except for copyright purposes, of course.) This is not to slight, in the least, the interest or importance of Jim's info. It's just to emphasize my perspective. Gershwin's tunes, for example, are not "folk tunes." (Or, to cover myself, weren't.) |
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24 Aug 08 - 08:09 PM (#2421481) Subject: RE: Donald Where's Your Trousers From: GUEST,Dave MacKenzie Sorry Jeff, the nearest I've been to Chicago is watching the Bears play the Cowboys at Wembley. I was of course talking about my father's use of the Beurla. A trouser, of course, has two legs. |
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24 Aug 08 - 09:55 PM (#2421530) Subject: RE: Donald Where's Your Trousers From: Sandy Mc Lean But in Gaelic two is singular, not plural. Plural is three or more. A'bhiel thu tuigsinn? |
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24 Aug 08 - 10:28 PM (#2421543) Subject: RE: Donald Where's Your Trousers From: GUEST,Jeff, |
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24 Aug 08 - 10:33 PM (#2421545) Subject: RE: Donald Where's Your Trousers From: GUEST,Jeff Oops! Not only the wrong Dave Mackenzie, but I double posted by accident, too. Not having a good day :-) Well, it was worth a shot as I've lost touch w/him and wanted to express my appreciation for his treatment of me many years ago. Maybe googlesearch would be the way to go. Thanks, anyway Dave Mac 2. jeff |
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24 Aug 08 - 10:38 PM (#2421547) Subject: RE: Donald Where's Your Trousers From: Rowan I can't add to the 'gen' on the song but, in Oz, the word "trouser" is not used as a (singular) noun as the name for the garment, but as a verb; "to trouser" something (usually money or valuables) is "to pocket" it, often with the allusion that the action is illegal or disreputable. And, while the Oz slang "strides" and "duds" are both still used (as per Helen's post of almost exactly 10 years ago), older males often use the word "daks". I gather (from the Recitations anyone? thread, which includes the text of the Ballad of Idwal Slabs)) that "Daks" was a brand of trews made in the UK. Cheers, Rowan |
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25 Aug 08 - 11:36 PM (#2422179) Subject: RE: Donald Where's Your Trousers From: Jim Dixon According to the National Library of Australia: DONALD WHERE'S YOUR TROOSERS? Words, Andy Stewart. Music, Neil Grant. Melbourne: D. Davis & Co., c1960. |
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26 Aug 08 - 06:16 AM (#2422285) Subject: RE: Origin: Donald Where's Your Trousers From: Jim McLean Jim, you just beat me to it. I checked MacFadyen's pen names from a list I have of songs we wrote together and 'Grant' was a first name. Neil was a chap the same age as myself who also wrote for Andy. We adapted trad tunes and wrote what I would consider garbage now but such was the allure of having your songs sung on the telly by Andy Stewart that it was all seen as a bit tongue in cheek (nearly 50 years ago). Neil also wrote a song called 'Dr Finlay' which gave Stewart a platform for his impersonations. I remeber writing something to the tune 'The Hielan' Chorus' about Dr. Barbara Moor who walked from John o' Groats to Lands End. It was known, surprisingly enough, as the 'Walkin' Chorus'!! |
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04 Sep 08 - 11:49 PM (#2431522) Subject: RE: Origin: Donald Where's Your Trousers From: GUEST,David T Jim, I have tried to follow this thread but still don't know that I have a clear answer. Did Stewart write "Donald Where's Your Troosers" or simply adapt an older song? You would seem to be in an ideal position to know. Yes? Thanks David T |
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05 Sep 08 - 05:05 AM (#2431607) Subject: RE: Origin: Donald Where's Your Trousers From: Jim McLean Andy Stewart wrote the words and Neil Grant wrote the music based on a trad tune. |
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12 Mar 10 - 11:21 PM (#2863111) Subject: RE: Origin: Donald Where's Your Trousers From: GUEST,Iain MacFadyen`s grandaughter I can confirm that Iain MacFadyen and Neil Grant were the same person and he composed `Donald Where`s your trousers`and `The Scottish Soldier`. |
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13 Mar 10 - 04:54 AM (#2863205) Subject: RE: Origin: Donald Where's Your Trousers From: GUEST,Jack Campin The tune of "The Scottish Soldier" is a Tyrolean folksong adapted by Rossini and arranged for the pipes (as "The Green Hills of Tyrol") in the mid-19th century. |
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13 Mar 10 - 05:13 AM (#2863217) Subject: RE: Origin: Donald Where's Your Trousers From: Jim McLean Iain McFadyen's grandaughter, thanks for confirming my post of 24th August 2008. However, it should be noted there is another songwriter of a similar genre who is called Neil Grant. |
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13 Mar 10 - 06:31 AM (#2863265) Subject: RE: Origin: Donald Where's Your Trousers From: BobKnight Guest Jeff, Aberdeen wrote that 'Andy would be "dirlin" in his grave." Sorry Jeff, but 'dirlin' means vibrating/stinging/throbbing. What you mean is, "birlin," which means spinning. |
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13 Mar 10 - 09:30 AM (#2863359) Subject: RE: Origin: Donald Where's Your Trousers From: Charmion Note for Jim McLean: Look up, but not very far up ... Subject: RE: Origin: Donald Where's Your Trousers From: GUEST,Iain MacFadyen`s grandaughter - PM Date: 12 Mar 10 - 11:21 PM I can confirm that Iain MacFadyen and Neil Grant were the same person and he composed `Donald Where`s your trousers`and `The Scottish Soldier`. |
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13 Mar 10 - 12:25 PM (#2863435) Subject: RE: Origin: Donald Where's Your Trousers From: Jim McLean I agree with all that, Charmion, but to clarify, all I was saying was that there is another songwriter whose name is Neil Grant .. a different person of course. |
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14 Mar 10 - 03:47 AM (#2863738) Subject: RE: Origin: Donald Where's Your Trousers From: MGM·Lion Returning to topic of singularity or plurality of nouns trousers, trews, &c ~~ is not a sort of analogy provided by the similarly 'dually-single' cutting implements scissors and shears? |
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14 Mar 10 - 04:06 AM (#2863742) Subject: RE: Origin: Donald Where's Your Trousers From: Doug Chadwick |
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14 Mar 10 - 04:23 AM (#2863745) Subject: RE: Origin: Donald Where's Your Trousers From: Doug Chadwick Oops! I don't know how that got submitted without my text in place, but here we go for a second try. Just for interest, the Cubs and Brownies of the Grimsby Gang Show, Junior Gang, sang this song on stage last weekend in a musical sketch about the Loch Ness Monster. The audience of around 900, over 3 shows, clapped along with great enthusiasm. DC |
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14 Mar 10 - 03:27 PM (#2864048) Subject: RE: Origin: Donald Where's Your Trousers From: GUEST,JTT Trousers are plural for the same reason scissors are - their double (and probably duplicitous) nature. Pearse was shot on May 3, not May 4. This sent me looking for the Proclaimers and Letter from America, with its plangent list of the highland homelands emptying of emigrants, and its video image of the Bible in Gaedhlig, the bottle of whisky and the fiddle in the emigrant's bag fingered over by the Customs man. |
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15 Mar 10 - 11:33 AM (#2864519) Subject: RE: Origin: Donald Where's Your Trousers From: MGM·Lion "Bert Lloyd told me that he based his tune for 'Jack Orion' on 'Donald Where's Your Troosers'." === Burl 25 sep 03 ================= Anyone else recognise a resemblance also to The Blackleg Miner? ~~ another song alleged more than once on threads relating to it to have been at least much influenced by Bert's creative input ~~ which seems to me much closer than Jack Orion to Donald's Troosers. Which, the question always arises, will have influenced which? ~ if indeed there was any such influence. |
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11 Sep 10 - 04:44 PM (#2984713) Subject: RE: Origin: Donald Where's Your Trousers From: GUEST,Pete B When I was a boy(early 1950s) we had a record of it by Harry Lauder. Definitely pre Andy Stewart. |
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04 Dec 10 - 05:43 PM (#3046483) Subject: RE: Origin: Donald Where's Your Trousers From: GUEST i watched QI and they talked about the nineteenth century cabre tosser donald dinnie who also tried high jumping, he failed the first two times then took hes kilt off for his third attempt i was qoindering if this is where the origin of "donald wheres your troosers" comes from |
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05 Dec 10 - 05:58 AM (#3046767) Subject: RE: Origin: Donald Where's Your Trousers From: GUEST,Grishka A lovely song. Now I understand why Donald Duck (*1934, allegedly descending from McDucks) wears no such clothing: he dropped the kilt. |
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17 May 18 - 12:37 PM (#3925249) Subject: RE: Origin: Donald Where's Your Trousers / ...Troosers From: GUEST,Peter Very late here BUT after much research, it is from ievan polkka Ieva's Polka was written by a couplet writer active in 1920-1930 by the name of Eino Kettunen. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7yh9i0PAjck watch here :) |