BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?

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BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?

25 Mar 04 - 12:09 AM (#1145484)
Subject: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: harpgirl

Okay, gasoline is $1.75 for the low test in my Florida neighborhood...why is the dam stuff so expensive? Why is it 3 bucks a gallon in Cozumel?? Myabe we ARE running out....

25 Mar 04 - 12:14 AM (#1145487)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: LadyJean

I parked my car with the tank not quite half full. When I drove it again, it was almost down to empty. Watch your gascap. I don't know why the price is so high now. But some people are finding ways around it.

25 Mar 04 - 12:25 AM (#1145493)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: Amergin

simple....Greed...

25 Mar 04 - 02:24 AM (#1145520)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: Gurney

If you call it gasoline, then it isn't too expensive, compared with countries that call it petrol(eum.)
Here in NZ it starts at NZ$1.16 a litre, which is in the ballpark of US$10.40 a gallon, according to a swift calculation.
If someone has a ready-reckoner with US gallons (mine is imperial, and I seem to remember they are bigger) and the exchange rate, it would be interesting.

And to answer the question, it is a monopoly commodity, and we use it by the graciousness of two cartels.

25 Mar 04 - 02:45 AM (#1145527)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: Amergin

more like 2.85 cents american per gallon...

1.16 NZ equals 0.753086 USD

a US gallon equals 3.78541 litres

25 Mar 04 - 03:29 AM (#1145541)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: Metchosin

Price at the pump here on this island in western Canada for "gasoline" produced and refined in this country is approximately $ .85 Cdn. a litre or about $2.40 US per US gallon, if my conversions are correct. Maybe very cheap by European or NZ standards, but then considering the vast distances we have to transport goods and services in this country, as opposed to the comparitively miniscule distances regarding transport in the UK, for instance, it is a very expensive commodity in deed. Diesel does bring the price down somewhat.

But it still makes for other very expensive commodities at many levels here, to keep this economy rolling along.

A large chunk of the Canadian price per litre is provincial and federal tax.

US gal., as opposed to imperial gal., is equivilent to 3.7854 litres

25 Mar 04 - 03:32 AM (#1145544)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: Metchosin

sorry for the duplication, just a little slower in my calculations *BG*

25 Mar 04 - 04:17 AM (#1145555)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: John MacKenzie

Petrol in the UK is about 80pence a litre on average, which makes it approx £3:64 per UK Gallon, or $6:44 in US dollars. The US gallon is smaller then the UK one but it sure makes the Florida prices look good from here. Can you send me a can over?
John

25 Mar 04 - 04:38 AM (#1145566)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: JohnInKansas

The three factors cited in recent news reports in my area are:

1. The changeover to "summer blends" required to meet emissions requirements results in a seasonal reduction in refinery capacity. This should produce a temporary "bump" in prices - but probably more up than back down.

2. New fuel additive requirements go into effect in many US areas, recently or very soon, which will result in "higher priced" additive use, which will probably be a more or less permanent increase.

3. Trouble in Venezuela, which is the largest single source for imported US crude.

And Mr Ripley says...Believe it or Not(?)

With decent weather comming on, there is a seasonal increased demand, and there probably is some increase in transport costs to put larger amounts of fuel "out on the road" for spring and summer travellers. One does suspect that "if they want it bad enough they'll pay for it" has something to do with it.

Recent estimates anticipate that prices for this spring should peak near $3.00 (US average) per gallon for the lowest grade - probably nearer $4.00 if you need a "premium" grade, and prices for the lowest grades in some "high cost areas" may hit $4 or $5.

California, Nevada, Alaska, and Hawaii are currently showing the highest pump prices.

John

25 Mar 04 - 04:44 AM (#1145569)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: The Fooles Troupe

Because it comes from outter space - created during the life of a star - it is organic stardust!

Robin

25 Mar 04 - 04:50 AM (#1145576)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: The Fooles Troupe

Australia currently is 85-90 Aus cents per litre.

and I'm not kidding, petroleum is now thought to be accumulated organic detrius from space acquired during the formation of the planet - coal is fossilized vegetable matter.

Robin

25 Mar 04 - 05:50 AM (#1145594)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: Pied Piper

Actually it's not expensive enough and is one of the reasons that the 5% of the world's population that lives in the North America produces 50% of the worlds Greenhouse emissions.

TTFN
PP

25 Mar 04 - 06:11 AM (#1145607)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: Teribus

OIL
1. They have to find it - expensive process
2. They have to drill for it - expensive process
3. They have to put in the infrastructure to produce it and transport it - expensive process
4. They have to refine it - expensive process
5. They have to market, sell and distribute it
6. Goverments, states tax it

Prices come out as detailed by those posting previously.

Now compare that product and its price per gallon to ONE of eric the reds bottles of Glenmoragie (for ease of comparison a LITRE bottle)
1. Organic raw materials easy and cheap to grow
2. Distillation process - fairly cheap and simple process
3. They have to market and sell it - moderately expensive
4. Governments, states tax it

Which one is the greatest rip off?

25 Mar 04 - 06:20 AM (#1145613)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: GUEST

Both of them, I would think

25 Mar 04 - 06:43 AM (#1145624)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: McGrath of Harlow

As Pied Piper says, it's not expensive at all, considering. More especially in the USA where you have it dirt cheap, even when the price goes up.

There's only a limited quantity of it, and when it's gone it's gone. It's going to get a lot more expensive, get used to the idea.

Until we've set up proper replacmeents to enable us to get by without it (including cutting down on unnecessary use of energy), it should be treated like gold dust. Except that it's a great deal more important than gold dust.

25 Mar 04 - 07:03 AM (#1145637)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: kendall

GREED

25 Mar 04 - 09:11 AM (#1145734)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: Teribus

Naw Guest, at £3.64/Gallon approx for petrol in the UK compared to £67.50/Gallon approx for whisky, considering the costs involved I'd say the Government is ripping us off to a greater extent on the latter.

Mind you, the question of audience comes into it. Not everybody drinks, whereas everybody directly, or indirectly, pays for fuel.

25 Mar 04 - 09:11 AM (#1145735)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: Rapparee

I think that this is one of those things that pose a simple question to which there isn't any simple answer (like the "Why do we die?" thread).

Living where I do, it appears that every other vehicle on the road is either an SUV or a BHP (Big Honkin' Pickup). Some of these are necessary; this is, after all, ranching and farming country. But I have a hard time convincing myself that the city councilman who lives up the street really needs a Ford Expedition to drive to and from his office everyday. Or that a local radio station needs a Hummer from which to do remote broadcasts from stores and car lots. Or that anybody living in town needs a Ford F-350 pickup truck to drive to the grocery store and the mall. (And I admit that sometimes these ARE needed, but not by Mr. and Mrs. Average Householder.)

There IS an area of greed. And production costs. And transportation costs (I can't think of many other products where you have to use the product to move it, which costs are naturally included in the consumer's price). And research. And lots of other things, including the fact that the US has made little progress in alternative auto fuels since the 1970s (lack of leadership and motivation).

Most things, I've found, are like this: no simple answers.

Petrol has topped USD 2.00 per US gallon here, for premium. I'm glad I drive a Honda Civic and get about 28 mph for city driving!

25 Mar 04 - 09:22 AM (#1145746)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: Midchuck

Because people buy much larger cars than they need, particularly SUVs.

Because so many people live a good ways from their work and prefer to commute in their own cars, even if they have to take an hour for what should be a 20-minute trip because they spend the other 40 minutes stuck in traffic jams. This is aggravated by restrictions on smoking, since the only chance many people who are addicted to nicotine have to smoke during the day, without freezing their butts off, if they live in a cold climate, is in their cars. This in turn restricts car pooling, because of the conflict between people who want to smoke in their cars and those who can't stand it. (Mind you, I hate smoking and think the restrictions now in force are great - but you have to consider the side effects.)

Because so many people would rather commute in their own cars, as noted above, the demand for good reliable public transportation is not large enough to support it, so additional numbers of commuters have to use cars, even though they'd rather use public transportation.

Add to the above, the fact that the government (I'm talking US here, understand) gives massive subsidies to the airlines, and provides the airport facilities, and essentially underwrites the trucking and bus industries by providing the highways, but feels that the railroads should be self-supporting, thereby making passenger rail non-competitive.

Because so many perfectly healthy and able people's idea of getting outdoors for recreation is to go for a drive, or a motor cycle ride, or play golf using a motorized cart, or ski using a lift, or hunt deer by driving the truck around the back roads with a rifle sticking out the window (It really happens - come to Vermont in November if you think I'm kidding!) rather than walk/hike/run/bicycle ride/cross country ski/skateboard/whatever.

I could go on, but I'm likely to slip into blathering. Maybe I did already.

Peter.

25 Mar 04 - 09:44 AM (#1145757)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: GUEST,Obie

A combination of corporate and government greed. When the companies raise prices the % based taxes mean more for government as well, at least in Canada.

25 Mar 04 - 09:46 AM (#1145759)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy

Greed and capitalism - natural resources should be shared by all and products produced by state owned utilities: here is just one example of the result of high gasoline prices:

'ChevronTexaco's fourth-quarter profit nearly doubled to $1.74 billion ($1. 63 per share) from $904 million (85 cents) in the same quarter a year earlier. Revenue was up 13 percent to $30.47 billion from $27.06 billion in the year- ago period.

For all of 2003, ChevronTexaco made a profit of $7.43 billion ($6.96) compared with $1.13 billion ($1.07) in 2002. Revenue rose to $121.76 billion in 2003, up from $98.91 billion in the previous year.

ChevronTexaco's fortunes in the fourth quarter were bolstered by relatively high oil prices. A barrel of oil sold for an average of $26 in the United States, up $2.60 per barrel from the same quarter a year earlier.

In fact, oil traded between $25 per barrel and $32 per barrel nearly all year long. The market's strength defied analysts' predictions that prices would drop after the war in Iraq.

Another big source of ChevronTexaco's profit was gasoline. The company underscored that the margins on the West Coast were particularly strong in the fourth quarter of 2003 because of lower inventory levels for the entire industry.'

wouldn't $1 billion dollars have been enough profit? and that doesn't take into account the gazillions of dollars (over)paid to executives 'running' the business. A reasonable salary to managers and a real living wage to the rest of the employees would still cost less than the current set-up.

25 Mar 04 - 09:57 AM (#1145765)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: Kim C

Gasoline always goes up when travel season comes around: spring, Christmas, you name it. Any excuse they can find to bump the price, they will. Guess that falls under the Greed category.

I'm glad to see more hybrids on the roads, though. But what I'd really like to see is an engine that runs on garbage.

25 Mar 04 - 09:57 AM (#1145766)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: Strick

I like what someone posted on another website. I won't say that gas is cheap like he did but he posted"

This chart was put together when gasoline was $1.39 a gal. Here are some other liquids priced per gallon.

http://www.cockeyed.com/science/gallon/liquid.html

Bottled water was $6.40
Budweiser was $8.88 (a crime in and of itself)
Kikkoman soy sauce - $15.33
Red Bull energy drink - $30.69
Tabasco sauce - $94.46
Cover Girl nail polish - $892.80
Chanel No.5 perfume - $25,600

Gee, even if we had that carborator that ran on water the oil industry bought and supressed, it'd be cheaper to run your car on gasoline. :D

25 Mar 04 - 09:58 AM (#1145767)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: Raptor

It is aparently cheeper to pay with "ass" Or "grass"

Raptor

25 Mar 04 - 10:28 AM (#1145791)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: Teribus

GUEST,Bill Kennedy - 25 Mar 04 - 09:46 AM

"Greed and capitalism - natural resources should be shared by all and products produced by state owned utilities:"

Hey, not so bad over this side of the pond, Bill. Remember that £3.64 per gallon of petrol? Well 86% of that (i.e. £3.13) goes to the Government. How's that for natural resources being shared by all?

Greed and Capitalism - HELL AS LIKE

25 Mar 04 - 10:55 AM (#1145811)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: McGrath of Harlow

Well 86% of that (i.e. £3.13) goes to the Government. How's that for natural resources being shared by all.

Very true. We may not like the stuff they spend our money on, but at least it's our money, and if we make them we could make sure it's spent on things that we need. Unlike the profit made by the oil companies.

And for an example of that - look at this link to a story about how, 15 years on from the Exxon Valdez disaster, the company hasn't paid a penny to the fishing communities affected, or to undo the damage they did - and the US government is in their corner. That's only to be expected, since they were bought and paid for long ago.

That's the real cost of gasoline - and it's very expensive indeed, for the people and the places that have to bear it.

25 Mar 04 - 10:56 AM (#1145812)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: McGrath of Harlow

"Well 86% of that (i.e. £3.13) goes to the Government. How's that for natural resources being shared by all.

Very true. We may not like the stuff they spend our money on, but at least it's our money, and if we make them we could make sure it's spent on things that we need. Unlike the profit made by the oil companies.

And for an example of that - look at this link to a story about how, 15 years on from the Exxon Valdez disaster, the company hasn't paid a penny to the fishing communities affected, or to undo the damage they did - and the US government is in their corner. That's only to be expected, since they were bought and paid for long ago.

That's the real cost of gasoline - and it's very expensive indeed, for the people and the places that have to bear it.

25 Mar 04 - 11:01 AM (#1145816)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: MudGuard

1.07 EUR per liter ==> 4.05 EUR per Gallon.
Exchange rate as of today: 1 EUR = 1.21769 USD

==> 6.00 USD per Gallon.

Now what was the prize you complained about? 3.00 USD? Ridiculous!
You should live in a country where the stuff IS expensive.

Reason for the high prizes here: most of it is taxes (mineral oil tax, value added tax, ...)

I am so glad I do not need a car here in Munich, Germany...

25 Mar 04 - 11:06 AM (#1145821)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: Raptor

Well said McGrath, Both times.

Raptor

25 Mar 04 - 11:10 AM (#1145823)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: GUEST

At 86% tax, I'd say that was very steep.

What is the tax on Whisky, these days?

25 Mar 04 - 12:29 PM (#1145923)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: Teribus

GUEST 25 Mar 04 - 11:10 AM,

I think it is about 66% on a 70cl bottle

McGrath of Harlow - 25 Mar 04 - 10:56 AM,

Interesting article, but it fails to state whether or not the fault lies with Exxon, or their insurers. If insurers are involved, Exxon would have been belted into the background and told to shut up while the insurers delay and wrangle their exposure down.

25 Mar 04 - 12:33 PM (#1145926)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: Metchosin

Just so we are not comparing apples and oranges and as further food for thought

UK =                $ 5.48 US / US gal (86% Taxes = $ .77 per gal after taxes)
NZ =                $ 2.85 US / US gal
Australia =         $ 2.38 US /US gal
Canada =          $ 2.40 US /US gal (approx 40-50% Taxes = $ 1.20 per gal after taxes)*
United States =    $ 1.75 US /US gal (approx 30-40% Taxes = $ 1.05 per gal after taxes)*

*calculated at the highest amount

Until it is determined how much per gallon is actually taxes in each country, my question would be why does the UK pay so little for a gallon of gas?

One possible reason is that it costs more to transport oil via pipeline than it does to ship oil by tanker. Contrary to what was stated previously, from figures I have seen, Canada is the largest supplier of petroleum to the US (not Venezuela) unless the US considers petroleum fom Canada as their own. Petroleum in Canada (except for the east coast) and from Canada to other areas of North America is primarily transported by pipeline and as such costs more.

some Canadian statistics

some US statistics

25 Mar 04 - 12:39 PM (#1145933)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: MudGuard

Uuups, just noted I copied the wrong number.

It should be 4.93 USD, not 6.00 USD (still more than the US prices) for Germany.

25 Mar 04 - 12:41 PM (#1145936)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: Chief Chaos

I have to agree that it is mostly greed disguised in the old "they're regulating me" sheepskin. I've talked to mariners from the tankships and they have told me that they have been ordered to sit offshore and wait for the oil/gasoline supplies dry up before the owners negotiated a price for their product.

They also seem to shut down the refineries for maintenance during the height of the busiest season.

The specialized gas does't fly with me because they could be producing it in limited quantities over the year to make the quota for the summer.

Sources say that the giant drilling platform "TROLL" will pay for itself in about six years. Compare that with your 30 yr. mortgage.

I don't worry about the prices of the other commodities. I need none of them to get back and forth every day to work. Channel #5? if you're rich I guess you could buy it that way, but like anything else for the rich, it's priced that way to keep the poor from being able to afford it.

By the way, the people of Iraq are paying $.08 per gallon.
Valdez oil is not refined in America either, what makes anyone think that ANWR oil would be?

25 Mar 04 - 12:43 PM (#1145941)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy

the fact that a government taxes a product after the corporation has paid its overhead and overpaid its executives, and still made a $7.43 Billion profit in a year, does not mean that the public wouldn't be better served by government ownership & distribution of the product without the intervening skimming of dollars. would there probably be some mismanagement, incompetence, fraud, cronyism, etc. in a government run program? most likely, but the public deals with that, and with taxes each time they vote. the public has no such say in regards to corporate decision making. I would like to know how much Chevron/Texaco paid in US taxes last year, if anything.

25 Mar 04 - 12:47 PM (#1145947)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: Metchosin

MudGuard, what are the taxes on gasoline in Germany?

25 Mar 04 - 12:51 PM (#1145950)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: Rapparee

Strick, using the first four items from the website you cited, I ran the figures through the Consumer Price Index calculator here. The increase in the CPI, assuming that the prices cited in your website were current as of the last time the site was updated (December 26, 2002 when I visited it a few minutes ago), at the end of 2003 (the last year for which inflation figures are available) the items would cost, per gallon:

Coffee: USD 0.72
Unleaded gasoline: USD 1.42
Kool-Aid: USD 1.89
Clorox: USD 2.25

Without running out to my car and checking, I believe was paying USD 1.60 for a gallon of unleaded petrol at the end of December, 2003. (And why would I buy a gallon of Clorox bleach when the house brand would work and about USD 1.00/gallon cheaper?)

This is NOT to say that petrol in the US is not cheaper than anywhere else -- it is. But I don't think that the increase can be attributed solely to the average increase in the CPI, either.

25 Mar 04 - 12:55 PM (#1145953)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: MudGuard

Heavy, don't ask me details - I am a (convinced) cyclist and don't buy the stuff.

Ah, google helped:

Of the price to be paid, there are
62.70% mineral oil and "ecological tax"
13.79% value added tax (net price plus 16% VAT = full price, ==> 13.79% of full price is VAT)

adds up to 76,49% taxes.

25 Mar 04 - 01:01 PM (#1145956)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: Metchosin

I don't think you will ever see any steps towards nationalization of the oil production in Canada. The US would never permit it and Canada would probably prefer not to have the level of interference in its politics that has been afforded Iraq and Venezuela.

25 Mar 04 - 01:09 PM (#1145968)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: Metchosin

Germany = $4.93 US / US gal (76% Taxes = $ 1.18 per gal after taxes)

25 Mar 04 - 01:19 PM (#1145979)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: GUEST,Obie

Actually Pierre Trudeu created Petro Canada years ago as a crown corporation. The idea was that with one honest oil company in the free marketplace the others would have to be as well.
Too bad but the oil producing parts of the country screamed blue murder and most of Petro Canada was sold . The federal government put the last of it up for sale a couple of days ago.

25 Mar 04 - 01:25 PM (#1145986)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: Gareth

GUEST 25 Mar 04 - 11:10 AM,

I think it is about 66% on a 70cl bottle

McGrath of Harlow - 25 Mar 04 - 10:56 AM,

Interesting article, but it fails to state whether or not the fault lies with Exxon, or their insurers. If insurers are involved, Exxon would have been belted into the background and told to shut up while the insurers delay and wrangle their exposure down.

Sorry T EXXON Forum shopped, It came up in a TEXAN court.

Basically the court ordered the insurers to give EXXON a blank check, which does not explain why Alaskan Interets have not been paid.

Gareth

25 Mar 04 - 01:30 PM (#1145991)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: Metchosin

MudGuard, be thankful you don't live in Canada. Cycling at 20 below through snow, during the relatively long lengths of our winters, in most parts, is not very comfortable.*BG*

25 Mar 04 - 02:12 PM (#1146022)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: John MacKenzie

John in Kansas, I know it's not your fault, but I find it insulting that in a country which refuses to sign the Kyoto Agreement, an oil company uses lower emissions requirements as an excuse for raising prices. It strikes me that someone somewhere is taking the piss.
John

25 Mar 04 - 02:33 PM (#1146039)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: twingles

Hi Metchosen, I'm new to mudcats... hope this is a way to contact you! I'm interested in a fiddle recording of Ookpik waltz by Frankie Rogers. Can you give me the info? Thanks, Twingles

25 Mar 04 - 02:36 PM (#1146042)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: Peace

Gas is expensive because oil companies want to make megabucks.

25 Mar 04 - 02:48 PM (#1146056)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: MudGuard

20 below?

Are you talking Celsius, Fahrenheit or even ;-) Kelvin?

Today, 4 days after the nominal beginning of springtime, I rode through 10cm (4 inches) of muddy snow...

25 Mar 04 - 03:51 PM (#1146106)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: Metchosin

MudGuard, does it matter? 20 below zero is pretty cold in either scale, although not as cold for cyclists who are properly dressed actually don't find it cold at all.*BG* For those hardy souls, such as yourself, winter cycling for 5 month of the year is actually becoming a way more popular here, but about 70% encounter some "uncontrolled collisions with the ground".

Icebiking

25 Mar 04 - 03:52 PM (#1146107)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: Pied Piper

-20K,thats a Zen temperature.
PP

25 Mar 04 - 04:18 PM (#1146127)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: jimmyt

There are lots of good ideas in this thread, in my opinion. It is absolutely true that Americans tend to overconsume oil, especially with the new tendancy to drive these megabeast vehicles that really make very little sense. ie the SUV. I would like to see the price of gasoline go up here in the US to encourage Americans to act more responsibly with our consumption.

I do, however, take some exception to the concept of nationalizing these oil companies. I have yet to see something taken over by our government that proves to be more efficient, better, or less expensive than it would be in private enterprise. In fact, it seems to be quite the opposite.

25 Mar 04 - 04:50 PM (#1146157)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: Metchosin

well, you will get considerable debate regarding health care in a number of countries. Also, how come nobody ever argues about the superiority of private armed services, over ones run by the government?

25 Mar 04 - 06:23 PM (#1146212)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: artbrooks

As has been said, the biggest chunk of it is taxes. Presuming that the producers charge European nations the same as they do the US, I do find it interesting that the prices are so much higher there. That much more tax or that much more profit for the gasolene companies?

I paid $22.50 to fill up my car this afternoon, at $1.52 per gallon, and I shudder to think of what it would cost in the UK. I do drive a small SUV (that gets about 25 miles to the gallon), and I do need (or at least appreciate) all of its features from time to time, but I also expect I'd find ways to cope if a tank full cost me two or three times as much. That really is the only way to get the behemoths off the road...make people pay through the nose to drive them.

25 Mar 04 - 08:18 PM (#1146298)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: Metchosin

If the tax of 86% is correct, it would appear that the UK has the lowest pretax gas price.

25 Mar 04 - 09:21 PM (#1146325)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: jimmyt

Art, I am not referring to folks who actually utilize the features of their vehicles. i have a pickup that truth be known I probably don't need as much as I would like to think I do but it is always available for friends and family to use so I can sorta justify it.

I am referring to the people who own these gas guzzling behemoths that never see much use except from the garage to the Starbucks. We Americans are really very spoiled with motor vehicles. I have however noticed lots more Range Rovers travelling the back roads in England though in recent years. Not too far behind us it seems in personal consumption.

25 Mar 04 - 09:39 PM (#1146333)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: Bobert

Three words:

1. George Bush: oilman

2. Dick Cheney: oilman

3. Condolesa Rice: oilwoman

Bobert, none of the above

26 Mar 04 - 01:55 AM (#1146429)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: Jim McCallan

Interesting to see Teribus' on one hand tell us the difference between the greater rip-off of whisky as opposed to petrol, and proceed then to tell us that the (UK) Government taxes whisky at 20% less.

As a connoisseur of the golden drop (though I say so myself), I do despair of the prices sometimes, but I know that it is not produced by the millions of barrels per day, and as such there is less of it to tax.

I agree with GUEST 25 Mar 04 - 06:20 AM that both are rip-offs, but technically speaking, petrol is the greater one.

26 Mar 04 - 03:24 AM (#1146454)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: MudGuard

uncontrolled collisions with the ground:
in 99.9% of these cases, the ground has been found guilty and was sentenced to long years of lying around without moving ;-)

-20K,thats a Zen temperature.
That's why I put the smiley ;-) before Kelvin ;-)

The last time I bought gasoline was in 1997 or 1998 - I was on a bicycle trip and used my tent for the nights. I bought half a litre and used it for my camping cooker ;-)

But imagine the face of the station owner when I rode up to the air station and filled my tires, then cycled up to one of the pumps and poured gasoline in my pannier (it must have looked like that - I was holding the fuel bottle behind the pannier ;-)), then went to pay.

26 Mar 04 - 08:14 AM (#1146598)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: Teribus

Fairly straightforward Jim.

How much does it cost the oil company to get a litre of petrol to the pump in order that the motorist can put it in his car? Compare that to how much it costs a distillery to get a litre of whisky to a warehouse?

Profit to the oil company is in terms of pennies per litre.

Profit to the distiller is in terms of pounds per litre.

Ratio production cost : profit per litre, which is the biggest rip-off? I'll side with MGOH on this petrol is quite good value for money, whisky at the current prices is a rip-off.

26 Mar 04 - 08:43 AM (#1146613)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: Jim McCallan

Yes, Teribus but the rip-off occurs at State level.

I'm all for keeping jobs in the country, and supporting local distillers, and all that. And considering the wages that are paid to the average oil worker, and compare that to what the average distillery worker gets, I also think that to be fairly straightforward also.

The original comparison, I think though, was not a good one, as we use each product for different purposes; one is a lot more 'consumable' than the other, (if we all drove a car, and took a dram from time to time) for instance. But if the taxes were reduced on both commodities, your average Joe like myself, and I suspect yourself, would have a few extra bob in our pockets.

Rip-off certainly, but then again, I don't pour 10 gallons of whisk(e)y in to me twice a week.

Jim.

26 Mar 04 - 10:06 AM (#1146682)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: Chief Chaos

Filling up my car with overpriced gas pisses me off.
Filling myself with overpriced whiskey makes me happy.
I'll take the latter please. Cognac preferred!

27 Mar 04 - 12:53 AM (#1147319)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: LadyJean

I'm going to have to get out to OHara Township next week. There are no buses that go that way. So, I'm going to have to drive. My car doesn't run on whiskey, or even Chanel # 5.

27 Mar 04 - 04:01 AM (#1147385)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: Gurney

Interesting, comparing the rip-offs in the cost of petrol and whisky.
One point not yet made: They don't store petrol for six years before they sell it, and watch 20% or so evaporate in that time.
That is like growing trees for profit; you'd better have another source of income in the meantime.

Sorry about the faulty maths up the top there. Tried to correct myself but couldn't get back on. Frequent occurance.

27 Mar 04 - 10:40 PM (#1147949)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: Scoville

It was about $5/gallon in Norway when we were there 12 years ago. I can't imagine what it must be now. It runs around $1.60 here for the cheap stuff ($1.85 for premium). No complaints. I've got a large hatchback that runs around 30/35 mpg; I'd probably have bought something even smaller but I really do need the hatch and flat-folding seats, more often than I thought I would.

And I'd love to live closer to work but don't get me started on the job market here.

28 Mar 04 - 03:00 AM (#1148052)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: Peace

It's gonna get a helluva lot more expensive when we begin running out of it.

28 Mar 04 - 04:54 AM (#1148075)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: Shanghaiceltic

Just to add another perspective; gas in China is RMB 3.2 a litre that works out at about RMB 14.5 per imperial gallon. On todays exchange rates that is $1.75 per gallon. Therefore comparable with the US, but cheaper than the UK.

This then needs to be compared at the basic wages in China. In a city like Shanghai or Beijing an average good local wage is about $600 a month. In the country side it is much much lower.

Therefore the real cost is much higher, when taken as a percentage of earnings.

Chinese cars are fairly cheap but cars made by joint ventures such as Volkwagen, GM and Ford are much more expensive than an equivalent model made outside of China.

In Shanghai the cost of a car number plate is now RMB43,000 or $5200.
Some other cities are cheaper but unless you have a residents permit you cannot register in another city.

So a good communist country like China is no different from any other country. Cars are considered a luxury and are therefore taxed on the purchase price, the licencing and the gas that goes in them.

All motorways are toll roads and the tolls are not cheap either. A 2.5 hour return trip to a city called Hangzhou about 200 Km from Shanghai will cost about $22 in tolls alone.

So on balance the US seems to be getting a pretty good deal.

28 Mar 04 - 07:32 AM (#1148126)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: Metchosin

Is there a tax on gas in China?

28 Mar 04 - 09:22 AM (#1148161)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: Shanghaiceltic

I guess the tax on gas will be at a similar rate as in the US. But I will check on that.

08 May 04 - 10:46 AM (#1181085)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: Cluin

I'm going to Venezuela to fill up.

08 May 04 - 11:19 AM (#1181106)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: Metchosin

One could propose nationalizing the oil industry here and forget about going to Venezuela. Yeah...right..

08 May 04 - 11:39 AM (#1181116)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: kendall

The comparison between whiskey and gasoline is silly. We have to drive cars, we don't have to drink whiskey.

08 May 04 - 12:08 PM (#1181136)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: pdq

If you take a calculator and multiply by 1.04, representing an annual inflation rate of 4%, and do it for each year, you can compare the gas price now with that of the past. The figure 4% is approxomately the "cost of living" increase automatically granted to federal entitlement programs.

73 cents in 1973 = $2.46 in 2003
$1.49 in 1992 = $2.48 in 2003

I now pay about $1.89. (US gallon, US dollar)

08 May 04 - 12:35 PM (#1181151)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: Stilly River Sage

George Bush made a deal with Saudi Prince Bandar about the price of gas. It's that simple.

Back in April, we learned from CBS and many other outlets:

Woodward told 60 Minutes that Saudi Prince Bandar has promised the president that Saudi Arabia will lower oil prices in the months before the election - to ensure the U.S. economy is strong on election day.

I looked for an article with more information.

This comes from CNN back on April 19:

Saudis said to boost oil output

No. 1 oil exporter will reportedly increase production before election in effort to help Bush.

Bush has it in his ability to fix this any time he wants. And he wants to do it right before the election. I'd bet money on it. But just yesterday a friend wrote to say that oil has now hit $40 a barrel. So they're still tightening the thumb screws.

SRS

08 May 04 - 02:03 PM (#1181211)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: pdq

SRS - Prince Bandar was asked about that claim right after Woodward started pushing his book. Bandar said, in no uncertain terms, that Bush made no such request, either directly or throught diplomatic channels. He was also quite blunt that both Democrat presidents Clinton and Carter HAD made exactly such requests!

08 May 04 - 02:48 PM (#1181242)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: Stilly River Sage

So you believe him? Bandar is said to have made the offer, not Bush make the request. Bandar realizes that instead of Afghanistan or Iraq, the U.S. could have legitmately blown Saudi Arabia to wee bits after September 11. Look at the percarious position of both the U.S. regarding oil and Saudi Arabia regarding the number of terrorists they continue to unleash upon the world. They suffer from real credibility and special incestuous-interest problems. It's in Saudi Arabia's best interest to keep Bush in office.

SRS

08 May 04 - 02:50 PM (#1181245)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: Stilly River Sage

Make that "precarious."

08 May 04 - 02:52 PM (#1181247)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: Blackcatter

If gas is so expensive, why is the consumption of it going up?

People are lazy, fat and stupid.

08 May 04 - 03:35 PM (#1181273)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: John MacKenzie

Gas in the UK is now around $6 per UK gallon.
John

08 May 04 - 04:47 PM (#1181312)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: DougR

I cawn't believe it! Only two posts blaming Bush for the high cost of gasoline in the U. S. out of those posting to date! Unbelievable! Of course one would know without searching who wrote those two posts, right? Good old Bobert and his side-kick, SRS. So far, Halliburton has got off scott free! :>)

DougR

08 May 04 - 05:01 PM (#1181320)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: GUEST,Frank

It's expensive because the people who control it's sale and distribution can charge what they like for it. Detroit is also culpable.

This will be true of prescription drugs for the same reason.

Frank

08 May 04 - 06:14 PM (#1181369)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: Phot

I want to get the Landrover back on the road for winter, but at 14 MPG with the V8, an 85 litre tank is going to cost a bit too much.

Ah , sod it, You never know I may just run over Tony Blair...Was that other bump GWB?....

Wassail!! BOING!!

Bump..Bump..

Chris

09 May 04 - 01:58 AM (#1181574)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: Stilly River Sage

Did you have something useful to contribute to the conversation, DougR, or are you typing just to hear your keys rattle?

SRS

09 May 04 - 02:37 AM (#1181583)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: beardedbruce

Now, if we just stop pumping oil out of the US fields, and burn up all the Mideast and Far East oil...

Oil is far too valuable as a raw material to use it as fuel. Our children will curse us, when they have to systhesize hydrocarbons for chemical processes, when we could have been using nuclear power and fuel cells...

I live about 40 miles from my work. There are NO trains or buses that would get me there, even if my hours would allow it. Having just spent 25 months unemployed, I don't think I had much choice about taking what I could get, or any choice about being able to move. The society in the US is based on individual transportation rather than public.
Of course, if we go back to company owned towns...

09 May 04 - 03:27 PM (#1181749)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: DougR

Now, now, SRS, poked a sensitive spot did we?

DougR

09 May 04 - 08:10 PM (#1181891)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: Blackcatter

Phot - instead of complaining about the cost of gas, maybe you should be rethinking the idea of using such a wastful vehicle.

Live in the real world - not the one TV sells you.

Sing seen recently on the back of a compact car: "Soldiers are dying in their Hummers, so you can play war in yours."

Another: Osama thanks you for driving an SUV.

09 May 04 - 08:15 PM (#1181896)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: Blackcatter

Here's an idea - since the Saudis got rich off of their gas, and that's where's Osama's money came from, everyone who has bought gas is partially guilty of the destruction of the Twin Towers. The more gas you consumed the more you're guilty. So - how many people did you kill?

09 May 04 - 08:23 PM (#1181902)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: Stilly River Sage

DougR, you're well known for making attacks on anyone who supports liberal causes or democratic candidates. But all you did was state the obvious that only two folks had had the foresight to place blame where it belonged (this is where you were going with that remark, isn't it?). Halliburton goes with the Bush camp without saying, so why state the obvious?

I don't consider myself anybody's sidekick--I can take top billing on my own, thank you very much!

SRS

10 May 04 - 12:16 AM (#1182017)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: MarkS

Another thing to remember is that China is bidding up the price of gas. Domestic manufacture of autos in China has gone up by roughly triple over the past 3-4 years. All those autos need fuel, so China is now buying oil in higher quantities than in previous years. Likewise for steel. The price of steel is up something like 60% over a year ago, and it has gotten so bad that thieves are stealing (bad pun - sorry) guard rails from highway median strips in New Jersey and selling them for scrap.
With increased Chinese and Asian prosperity, the competition for the commodities we used to use more of in the West will drive prices for those commodities nowhere but up.
Mark

10 May 04 - 10:45 AM (#1182223)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: Kim C

Here's how I see it...

People have been traveling less over the last 2.5 years thanks to the events of 9/11. Demand for gas has probably actually gone DOWN slightly, so to make up for it, the prices are going up, and we're led to believe there's some big heavy reason for it. But I don't buy it. I think it's all a scam trumped up by people wanting to take advantage of the Middle East situation.

10 May 04 - 11:21 AM (#1182256)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: GUEST

of course when I see bottled water going for $1.50 US for a 12 oz bottle I don't feel anywhere near as upset about paying $1.96 a gallon for gasoline.

10 May 04 - 11:50 AM (#1182290)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: Lyrical Lady

Saltspring Is. was on the National news the other day with the distiction of having the highest gas prices in Canada. I filled up yesterday at $107.9 /ltr. Being that everything has to be trucked over here, it means that everything we buy will be affected..Scarey thought! How can people who work at minimum wage ever hope to make it... it's becoming way too expensive to live here.

LL

10 May 04 - 02:07 PM (#1182437)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: DougR

It was not intended as an "attack" SRS. Your's and Bobert's posts were so far off the mark, though, it appeared to me the posts were meant in jest. Couldn't imagine either of you REALLY blamed Bush.

DougR

10 May 04 - 03:19 PM (#1182488)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: Peace

Four liters almost equal an American gallon. At $.85/liter, that would be $3.40 per gallon before exchange. Afetr exchange (multiply times 1.3 approximately), ya end up paying about $4.40/gal in Canada.

10 May 04 - 03:25 PM (#1182494)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: Stilly River Sage

Not at all "far off the mark" DougR, just paying attention to something beyond the numbers on the gas station sign. Contributors to this thread are apparently looking in their wallets and not at the big picture to see why the sticker shock.

You'll be interested to know that today on the news (Morning Edition, NPR) it was announced that last night a Saudi Arabian ambassador announced that at next month's OPEC meeting he will move to have the number of barrels of oil increased to avoid world crisis. Let's see: the meeting in is June. The production will begin increasing sometime in July. Prices will probably be lower for July, August, September, October, in time for November elections. Four months of decreasing prices ought to just about clinch it for people who can't see beyond their wallets to the puppet masters with the strings right there in plain sight.

SRS

11 May 04 - 11:12 AM (#1182883)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: GUEST,Bill Gates

Gasoline is not at all expensive!!

11 May 04 - 01:59 PM (#1183033)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: Cluin

Not when compared to liquor. The government taxes the hell out of that too. But that's okay, it's not a necessity (for most of us).

11 May 04 - 02:09 PM (#1183045)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: Blackcatter

Gas isn't much of a necesity if you organize your life. I own a scooter and a bike. I use less than 2 gallons of gas a week. Occasionally I need to carry more stuff than my scooter can handle. I have any number of friends who are happy to accomodate with their cars.

I spend more on liquor, though that is still a minor expense. A few pints every couple weeks and a bottle of single malt every other month or so. Say $250 a year. Gas at current prices: about $170.

Of course, the more gas you use, the sooner you'll be forced to change. I can't wait until that time to here all the whinning.

11 May 04 - 04:09 PM (#1183157)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: Metchosin

gas isn't much of a necessity? I'd like to see you move a ton of potatoes or a couple of hundred gallons of milk without it.

12 May 04 - 07:25 AM (#1183660)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: GUEST

It is high time that we all got off car welfare. They are the single most destructive thing in our cities and we need to stop seeing them as essential and start seeing them in the eay we see cigarettes...un unacceptable addiction. I realize that there are times when cars and trucks are essential but we have gone way past that and we need to change. I have not owned acar in twenty years and I get around quite well in a city that has onle adequate transit service. I wish we could all just look at wgat we mean by essential.

12 May 04 - 08:32 AM (#1183706)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: JennyO

I get a bit annoyed at people who come over superior-sounding because they don't drive a car. A lot of them are only too happy to get lifts to places in other people's cars, without having to pay for one and its upkeep. I am NOT talking about my friends that I give lifts to willingly and who pay me for the petrol, by the way.

Some of us could not do our jobs without a car - I'm not talking about getting to work, I'm talking about using a car for the work - some of us do not live near public transport, or suffer a disability, and could not function without a car. There are a number of reasons why we might choose to run a car, and we don't have to justify ourselves to the ones who don't.

So by all means, if you can manage without one, do so, but spare us the self-righteous overtones and the little digs about being addicted or needing to get organized.

Jenny (car owner)

12 May 04 - 04:37 PM (#1184147)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: Cluin

Where I live, a car IS a necessity. I would LOVE to not have to own one.

12 May 04 - 09:52 PM (#1184346)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: Blackcatter

Metchosin - I meant gas for personal use. And I have a garden that provides about 75% of my vegetables (I even grow potatoes - 6 kinds)

Jenny - I changed my life to be able to live without a car. As you might notice I did mention that I drive a scooter. If you think I'm self-righteous - tough. This world is going to self-destruct in 50 or less years if we don't change the way were doing things. I know that what I'm doing isn't going to change the world, but at least I can seriously look people in the 3rd world as say that I'm less a part of the problem that more wastful people. I'm not bragging. I'm telling you that it can be done. Maybe not easily - but switch with a family in Botswanna or Sri Lanka or Peru and see how needed all your stuff is.

I have given up a lot to live simply (though you'd be surprised what you don't miss). It is a choice I made. I do use over people's cars/trucks on occasion and give them $$ to cover the cost. I chose work that allows me to work at home or close to my home.

You made choices in your life. When you made those choices what your enviormental impact ever a significant factor? Or like most 1st Worlders, did you go for conveience or comfort first?

Am I making you mad? Good. Think of me everytime you turn on your A/C, get in your car to go a mile, flush a full 5 gallons of water every time you pee, wash a load of dishes in a half-full washer, etc. If you don't do any of those things and try to live simply - congrats.

12 May 04 - 10:08 PM (#1184353)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: Amergin

Where I live there is NO public transport. I cannot afford to move into the city...as for being without a car i would love to be able to live without it...not having to pay petrol prices...car payments...and insurance payments...but like I said it IS a necessity...

12 May 04 - 11:33 PM (#1184408)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: Blackcatter

Not to press a point, but that's a situation you either put yourself in or somehow were forced into. Don't know your situation, but where would you be 100 years ago?

Over 3/4ths of the world's population does not have a personal car. So just how much of a necessity is it for them?

12 May 04 - 11:44 PM (#1184412)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: Blackcatter

Try this Ecological Footprint quiz:

Ecological Footprint Quiz

My "footprint" is 8, but I'm working to get it lower.

13 May 04 - 09:34 AM (#1184702)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: JennyO

I took the test, and my footprint was 6.9 in spite of the fact that I use my car. As I said before Blackcatter, not everyone is in a position to do without a car.

I use it because I have to, and in the process I make it possible for a lot of non-car drivers to get themselves and their things to places they could otherwise not go - I am always giving friends lifts to folk festivals, sessions etc. At least my friends have the good sense not to complain about my use of the evil motor car.

I chose work that allows me to work at home or close to my home.

Do you really think that everyone is free to make these choices? That's fine if you have, but that does not necessarily make you a better or a more thinking person. I'm not going to go into any details for you about why I need my car, but I do.

I'm not saying that we should not make an effort to conserve the world's resources - obviously we should, but there are many ways in which this can be done. I do my part in the ways that I am able.

If you think I'm self-righteous - tough.

Yes, and sounding more and more so. Getting people offside isn't going to help anything.

Jenny

13 May 04 - 10:26 AM (#1184734)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: Metchosin

growing your own vegetables is good.

Myself, I think everyone should own a good goat.

Need milk? some tasty cheese? manure for a garden? transport by cart? A good goat will do that.

And if you live in an apartment, they can be trained to use the stairs if the elevator is out of order.

13 May 04 - 11:00 AM (#1184764)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: JennyO

There we are - Metchosin has it - the answer is a goat!

Oh Little Hawk, where are you?

13 May 04 - 11:12 AM (#1184770)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: robomatic

If you're going to blame greedy capitalists, take a look at what greedy communists brought off, the most polluted industrial countries on the face of the earth.

Reason, state ran everything. No checks, no balances. Sort of like if the mafia ran the country, only less efficient.

Big oil in this country has big pockets. And they have a certain fear of big lawyers getting into them, so there actually is a sense of responsibility in the system, in addition to being staffed by hundreds of thousands of civilians who vote.

As for profit motive, if you are any good are you going to play for free? For very long?

13 May 04 - 12:48 PM (#1184855)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: Blackcatter

Communism as it has been practiced is simply Capitalism where only a handful of people (the leaders of the government) effectivly own all the businesses. Basicall, monopolies on an extreme scale. Fascism is basically the same thing, it just allows for private ownership, but only the largest owners are allowed to make huge amounts of profit.

A true Communist structure would work except for all the lazy people who want things that they insist are absolutely needed even though 75% of the world survives without them.

What the hell would you all do if the Mid East went into such turmoil that almost no oil was able to be exported and gas went to the equivalent to $50 a gallon? Would you all die? Things that are necesities in my life are not things that help me keep my way of life stable - they are things that KEEP ME ALIVE.

What in the hell gives you the right to consume some much of the world's resources?

13 May 04 - 02:52 PM (#1184970)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: Irish sergeant

Absolutely right Black Catter. Here's a thought though, an internal combustion engine will run on anything that will produce a volatile vapor. Like. let's say, alcohol. the beauty of that is that alcohol can be made from almost anything including garbage. So why are we not doing it? Irish Sergeant

13 May 04 - 03:08 PM (#1184988)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: Metchosin

Methane...methane is good..a good goat will do that too.

13 May 04 - 03:33 PM (#1185000)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: GUEST,amergin

a good goat makes a great sex partner...Little Hawk knows....and Brucie well he's been trying to get that goat to roll in the clover with him...

13 May 04 - 03:35 PM (#1185003)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: Metchosin

well as I said, a good goat will do that. But sheep are easier.

13 May 04 - 03:40 PM (#1185006)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: GUEST,amergin

true but some people just like the challenge...

13 May 04 - 06:16 PM (#1185114)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: Blackcatter

The limitations with non-gasoline fuels are 1) Most current engines cannot use other feuls efficiatly. The are set up for the volitile nature of gas, the waste gases, and the aspiration of gas, among other things. Try to use anyhting other than gas in your car and you will likely be very unhappy with the results. 2) Even if you convert to using a renewable fuel, you are still creating a great deal of pollution.

I'm sure there's more too.

13 May 04 - 08:35 PM (#1185226)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: Irish sergeant

True but the engines could be modified at the factory level or by a savvy mechanic. It is not an insurmountable problem. Sheer corporate greed by the oil companies keeps it from happening. Irish sergeant annoyed at gas prices and thinking horse drawn vehicles weren't such a bad idea

13 May 04 - 08:39 PM (#1185229)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: Metchosin

Harold Bate didn't find it difficult, using methane that is, in fact what he manufactured was "sweet as a nut".

At least Spaw could run his own vehicle and never have to go near a gas station again.

13 May 04 - 08:49 PM (#1185232)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: JennyO

What in the hell gives you the right to consume some much of the world's resources?

And what in the hell gives you the right to pass judgment, Blackcatter? Come to think of it, my footprint was 6.9 - Yours was 8. What are YOU doing wrong? Maybe you need to get a goat.

13 May 04 - 09:05 PM (#1185242)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: Blackcatter

I've all ready got one - yours.

I never said that that test was accurate. Too short to do so. For instance, they probably penalized me for living by myself. Though I do it in an apartment of only 225 sq. ft. Less than half the lowest level they list (1 - 500) ft. Also, they many penalize me when I say that I primarily drive my motorcycle by myself. Problem is I have a scooter that could barely carry another person.

And I don't really care how you deal with the issues - you an no one else have bothered to say whow you'd live if gas became impossible to get. I know how I'd live - much the same as now.

13 May 04 - 09:19 PM (#1185251)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: Amergin

No you wouldn't....your clothes (unnatural fibres) the plastics you use everyday (including that in your pc) the tyres on your scooter....and the list goes on....they all would be practically nonexistant without oil.

13 May 04 - 09:26 PM (#1185256)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: JennyO

Sorry Blackcatter, you can't have my goat - I need it. Did you notice how generously I fed you that line? I would have used it myself but I let you have it.

you an no one else have bothered to say whow you'd live if gas became impossible to get.

Poor dear - still labouring under the illusion that we owe you an explanation, when in reality it is none of your business.

Jenny (off to ruin the world with my evil motor car)

13 May 04 - 09:27 PM (#1185259)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: GUEST

May 19th is Do Not Buy A Drop Of Gas day. If everyone does this perhaps the greedy oil companies will feel it. How many people would be willing to take public transportation if it were more readily availabe? I would. Maybe if we weren't so dependent on oil imports from the Mideast, we'd have less problems with them. We fund their terrorism by buying their oil.

13 May 04 - 09:36 PM (#1185264)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: Metchosin

on the other hand, the goat would probably do quite well.

13 May 04 - 09:55 PM (#1185281)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: JennyO

A good goat'll do that!

13 May 04 - 10:50 PM (#1185310)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: Metchosin

LOL!

13 May 04 - 11:17 PM (#1185322)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: Amergin

Dont forget the goat can mow the lawn...get rid of your rubbish...and all sorts of things....i may get a goat so i can live up to blackcatter's standards...

14 May 04 - 12:38 AM (#1185358)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: Blackcatter

Whatever.

Never said I need my computer. Don't use it much for business. I wear only natural fiber clothing - and yes I know that since I don't grow my own cotton / raise sheep, etc. I'd have trouble. But I wasn't talking about a post-apocolyptic world. I didn't say everything would be perfect. I said I'm basically ready if it should happen. Also ready for the upcomming hurricane season.

Nope, you all don't owe me an explanation but it's funny that you're willing to say only the things that you're seemingly happy about or things you blame other people or the government or whatever for.

Goats are fine - but be careful what you feed them if you want milk that is safe to drink.

And Jenny - just wanted to please you bu taking your generously-offered straight-line. Next time why don't you do something to help the people in third world nations that only wish they had a life like yours? Now THAT'd be something.

14 May 04 - 01:38 AM (#1185374)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: Metchosin

Blackcatter, why do you assume that just because JennyO drives a car that she doesn't do anything to help those in third world nations?

Just because you have a pretty big footprint, despite your scooter, I wouldn't assume that you don't care about third world poverty. For all I know you could be supporting 40 foster children in Ethiopia. In which case, good for you, to each his own, at his or her own level of comprehension, circumstance and ability.

14 May 04 - 06:13 AM (#1185480)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: Geoff the Duck

Actually - the argument about petrol and crude oil prices is a complete smokescreen.
The main use of crude oil is in the plastics and chemical industries as a raw material.
They "crack" the crude to produce useful chemicals for manufacturing. They separate out the useful chemicals from the mixture produced.
Once they have removed everything they need, there are two waste products, Tar, which they dispose of by putting it on road surfaces, and petrol. The same amount of petrol (subject to actual chemical composition of the crude) will be produced as a by-product by the chemical/plastics industry whether people use it in cars or not.
If we didn't take it off their hands, they would have to burn it to get rid of it.
ERGO - we are doing them a favour by disposing of their waste product!
Personaly I think they ought to pay US for their disposal job.
Quack!
Geoff the (ecologist) Duck.

14 May 04 - 08:43 AM (#1185607)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: JennyO

Next time why don't you do something to help the people in third world nations that only wish they had a life like yours? Now THAT'd be something.

There you go again, assuming you know something about me, which you don't.

I thought you might like this little song that my friends in Ecopella, a green choir, sing. It's written by Paul Spencer (a mudcat member) who also writes songs for my choir, the Solidarity Choir. Enjoy:

Green Like Me

Words and music by Paul Spencer, 1996
arranged for choir by Ecopella

1. I'm an ethical consumer, that's a nineties thing to be,
So it's hydrocarbon aerosols instead of CFCs,
And now that Macca's uses those recycled paper trays,
My care for our environment can last for days and days,
In oh! So many ways,
My care for our environment can last for days and days.

2. I was going to start a compost but I couldn't stand the smell,
So I put it in the garbage with the glass and cans as well,
I know I should recycle but I just don't have the time,
To be sorting through the garbage can with a hectic life like mine,
And I'm far too refined,
To be sorting through the garbage can with a hectic life like mine.

3. You say I shouldn't drive to work but go by bus or train,
And have me waiting half an hour each morning in the rain,
My mobile phone would get all wet my hairspray would dissolve,
I'll be environmental if discomfort's not involved,
I give this firm resolve,
I'll be environmental if discomfort's not involved.

4. Now it's great to save our forests but I think it's fair to say,
That if someone's job is threatened then the forest must give way,
Well, we can't live without money, just look at those who do,
From their hair and clothes it's obvious they haven't got a clue,
Of course I don't mean you,
From their hair and clothes it's obvious they haven''t got a clue.

5. It's not that I hate ferals, or people who are weird,
In fact in have a friend who has two earrings in one ear,
It's just they tend to smell a bit or so the rumours go,
But I'm just being prejudiced 'cause I really wouldn't know,
And drug use makes them slow,
But I'm just being prejudiced 'cause I really wouldn't know.

6. I took some re-used bags once when I did the weekly shop,
But I felt a little foolish so that practice had to stop,
I still buy all the packaging I used to buy before,
But now I feel guilty so that counts as doing more,
And thinking's such a bore,
But now I feel guilty so that counts as doing more.

7. What do you mean "inactive"? I'm PC and up to date,
I buy dolphin-friendly tuna and I think Greenpeace is great,
I use unleaded petrol in my brand new Commodore,
And I'm boycotting my French class and the local French bread store,
Who could ask for more?
I'm boycotting my French class and the local French bread store.

14 May 04 - 10:00 AM (#1185669)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: freda underhill

my footprint was 2.6, I think being vegetarian probably contributed to that. and there's always someone else in a car with me, because I'm one of those ones that gets lifts! jennyo, what would I do without you and your car? thanks for all those lifts home from sessions.

There are these amazing, electric, or gas or whatever run cars, so I've heard. you also hear rumours about large corporations keeping the hydro car under lock and key until all the petrol has been used up on the gas guzzlers.

but realistically, at present who can afford an eco-car? yes, I've lived in India without cars, washing machines or an electric toothbrush. somehow I survived. but i need a train or bus to get to work on, and i'm lucky enough to live close to all that.

Its commendable to make personal efforts - but the real, effective changes will happen when different politicians get in, and make the major stuctural and environmental planning thats needed.

whats the point in getting stuck into someone and then zooming off on your motorbike?

ps

that song's brilliant jennyo - and so right for this thread!

14 May 04 - 10:51 AM (#1185696)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: Catherine Jayne

My footprint was 4.2. I would like to drive a car but 1) I haven't passed my test and 2)I probably couldn't afford the upkeep of it.

I manage by getting around on public transport and we get a taxi if we have too much stuff to carry.

And before Blackcatter jumps in about 3rd world countries....I donate to charities whenever I can...and can afford it.

14 May 04 - 12:06 PM (#1185738)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: Stilly River Sage

That test is far too short and clearly makes too many assumptions. My footprint came out 12, yet I know that's far too high. What were the factors in the test that affected my score? The house size, for one. It's in a larger category, but I put in lots of insulation and two efficient heat pumps. I've cut the cost of heating and cooling to 1/3 of what the former owners paid to heat and cool this house (my average monthly bill is $100 for a 2400+ foot house). I grow many of my own veggies. I telecommute, so the distance that I drive to work is less important--I only do it a couple of times a week. I recycle paper, cardboard, paperboard, glass, plastic, aluminum and other metals, and paper. I have a large compost heap in the back for the table waste. While my neighbors put full trash cans out at the curb, typically my one little can has one plastic grocery sack filled with the trash that couldn't be recycled. (I tie the handles into a knot, so it isn't very big at all). I carry cloth bags to the grocery store; cold stuff comes home in the plastic bags. We do eat meat, so that no doubt raised the score.) I pick up some groceries in brown paper bags so I can use those bags for the newspaper that gets recycled (if it doesn't get used under the mulch in the flower beds).

My truck usually has several riders, since I have kids. We don't make unnecessary trips and we plan them carefully. A truck isn't the most efficient vehicle mileage-wise, but I make sure every trip is as efficient as possible.

This thread reminds me of the old Ole and Lena joke:

Ole lay dying, and he said, "Is my wife here?" Lena said, "Yes, I'm here." He asked "Are my children here?" and they said, "Yes, we're all here." He said, "Are my relatives all here?" They said, "Yes. We're all here." Ole said, "If you're all here, why is the light on in the kitchen?"

SRS

14 May 04 - 06:25 PM (#1185841)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: pdq

Did Ole have any last words?

No, his wife was with him till the end.

14 May 04 - 06:56 PM (#1185866)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: harpgirl

Okay, now gasoline is $1.97 for low test. I can't believe this!!!

14 May 04 - 07:14 PM (#1185873)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: S O P

Taking a day off of buying fuel is like not going to the supermarket for a day. 'They' know you need the gas just as 'they' know you need the fuel. Your actions will be suitable for Jay Leno's act of going out on the street and interviewing the stupid and ignorant.

And gasoline is not a waste product if millions of machines are built just to consume it. If you were going to argue that point about 110 years ago you might have had a point. Standard Oil grew great way before it was selling gasoline. It grew still greater afterwards.

In fact, the production of plastics does not utilize nearly as much of oil as the portions used for gasoline (automotive) diesel (trains and trucking) and kerosene (air travel).

If enough of you purchased subarus instead of Hummers and used a bicycle to get groceries once a week and USED LESS GAS, then you would have an effect on the price. Otherwise it's a joke.

14 May 04 - 07:41 PM (#1185885)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: Phot

Petrol is now 85 pence per litre, the old girl has an 85 litre tank, at 14 MPG, OUCH! Call me a twit, I love V8s, if I can keep up with the fuel price remains to be seen...

The Landrover is 3528cc(215ci)

The Triumph is 955cc (?)

Landrover 0-60 19 seconds..114hp 220Lbs Torque

Triumph 0-60 2.3 seconds..156hp 78Lbs Torque

All that power has to come from somewhere, yep, the Triumph can drink more than the Landy........

All this has sod all to do with the question, but may show our love of all things octain fuelled...

Wassail!

(Skint!) Chris

15 May 04 - 01:54 AM (#1186023)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: Metchosin

Maybe of little consolation Phot, but you can always turn that wonderful old V8 into a Bennett Buggy

SRS, the footprint thing is a bit weird. If you answer the questions exactly the same way, but put yourself in different countries, you get entirely different sizes. I suspect that smaller European countries require less energy to move good and services about, but that doesn't explain the huge difference between Canada and the US. I would have thought that given Canada's reputation as a high "energy consumer", particularly because of the generally colder climate, coupled with the massive distances across which goods and services are transported, that my footprint would have been larger here.

In Canada, using Vancouver as the closest city, I'm a 4.6, but in Seattle I'm a 12, in Edinburgh a 3.9 and Cologne a 4.1. What makes me a bit less of a resource hog is that I have the priveledge of living in an energy efficient, "green" house and doing most of my work from my home office, so I do not have to commute. I also don't have any small children to ferry about anymore either.

15 May 04 - 01:48 PM (#1186290)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: pdq

Met...you don't suppose that the quiz is slanted against Americans, do you? Maybe an attempt to paint all Americans as pigs?

15 May 04 - 07:51 PM (#1186500)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: Ebbie

Same with me- givng Seattle's as the climate most like mine, my footprint is 12.

Vancouver nets me a 5.7.

Blackcatter, where do you live? Could it be that we live more lightly than you?

15 May 04 - 09:14 PM (#1186538)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: freda underhill

the US government is pouring its research money into the wrong things. this money could be much better spent on designing and eco friendly car, and marketing it for the masses.

read on..

Bush presses for more, more, more nuclear weapons
by Ian Hoffman, The Oakland Tribune, Dec. 11, 2003

In a newly leaked memo, the Bush administration's top nuclear-weapons executive urged the three federal H-bomb labs to explore a full range of new thermonuclear weapons. National Nuclear Security Administration chief Linton Brooks twice pressed weapons-lab directors last week to "take advantage of this opportunity" raised by repeal last month of a 1993 ban on low-yield nuclear weapons development.

Critics of the administration's new nuclear policies say the Dec. 5 memo suggests a no-holds-barred approach to designing new weapons that is more reminiscent of a Cold War arms race -- without a competitor -- than trying to curb the spread of nuclear weapons.

"This is really very distressing," said physicist and public policy professor Frank von Hippel, co-director of Princeton's Program on Science and Global Security. "They're saying, 'Go after it, guys. We're back in the fifties. Come up with all the crazy ideas you can -- if there are any crazy ideas left out there.' This is fossil Cold War mentality surfacing again."

President Bush signed a defense bill Nov. 24 that contained the repeal and re-established "advanced concepts" weapons design teams at Law- rence Livermore, Los Alamos and Sandia labs for the first time since the mid-1990s. "I expect your design teams to engage fully with the Department of Defense to examine advanced (thermonuclear) concepts that could contribute to our nation's security," Brooks wrote. "Potentially important areas of such research include agent defeat and reduced collateral damage."

Agent defeat and reduced collateral damage are the latest lingo for nuclear weapons to attack stores of chemical and biological arms and for low-yield bombs that penetrate the ground before detonating.

"In addition, we must take advantage of this opportunity to ensure that we close any gaps that may have opened this past decade in our understanding of the possible military applications of atomic energy -- no novel nuclear weapons concept developed by any other nation should ever come as a technical surprise to us," Brooks wrote.

"I would like to thank you and your staff for helping to support this important effort," Brooks wrote. "We are now free to explore a range of technical options that could strengthen our ability to deter, or respond to new or emerging threats without any concern that some ideas could violate some vague and arbitrary limitation."

The sentiment is noteworthy: The three lab directors -- two executives of the University of California and one of Lockheed Martin -- are typically discouraged from lobbying Congress, especially in pursuit of new nuclear weapons.

The memo was leaked Wednesday to the Los Alamos Study Group, an Albuquerque, N.M.-based disarmament organization.

"It's kind of cry havoc and release the dogs of nuclear design," said study group director Greg Mello.

He suggested the memo marked a shift from disciplined public service claimed by lab contractors such as the University of California to "nuclear opportunism" timed with the Bush administration.

"I think it means that all weapons concepts are on the table. Let's look at nuclear-driven radio-frequency weapons, let's look at neutron bombs and agent defeat and earth penetrators. Let's look at even more advanced concepts," he said. "You don't sense a lot of restraint here."

In December 2001, civilian leaders in the Pentagon called for new weapons designs in a still-classified Nuclear Posture Review. Since then, defense and Energy Department officials and allies in Congress have argued that the current U.S. arsenal of 7,000 deployed weapons was full of such high-yield bombs and warheads that an adversary might be emboldened to attack, thinking the United States never would retaliate.

We should not fail to take advantage of this opportunity, Brooks wrote in closing his memo.

Yet the Bush administration has avoided mentioning that all existing U.S. nuclear weapons are multi-staged devices, easily adjusted or modified for at least three explosive yields. Every bomb and warhead can be detonated at the equivalent of a few hundred tons of high-explosive, the definition of mini-nuke.

Suggesting the nation needs new, low-yield bombs, says retired Sandia weapons executive Robert Peurifoy, is a con game that he suspects is aimed at restarting nuclear testing.

"Tell me what yield you want and I can give it to you within the present inventory," Peurifoy said. "I do not understand this present argument that we are at some disadvantage with respect to the Chinese and the Russians or whoever. We can do any damn thing we want to do today, without nuclear testing."

15 May 04 - 10:17 PM (#1186550)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: Ebbie

incidentally, I don't understand the lament of how much petrol in the UK (for instance) costs. Since most of the charge goes for taxes and those taxes prepay a good many things, including health care, why is it an "expensive gasoline" item? Somebody has to pay those costs somewhere along the line.

In the US, much of the fuel taxes goes to pay for the road system- which often is a boondoggle in itself. But it appears that we are paying at least as much as the UK in actual fuel costs.

Nicht wahr? Enlighten me.

16 May 04 - 02:52 AM (#1186643)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: Metchosin

pdq, only if you believe the founders are masochists. Earthday and the Earthday site, although it now has international affiliations, was started by Americans.

Ebbie, as far as I was able to calculate it, further up thread and before the recent increase in price, the UK pays less for gasoline (disregarding taxes) than either the US or Canada. I would assume that the relatively short distance for ocean transport of North Sea Oil, to the consumer base, would be part of the explanation. It costs more to transport oil by pipeline than it does to transport it by ship, so all that stuff coming out of Alberta and Northern BC by pipeline to the US and to Ontario and Quebec is a bit pricey.

16 May 04 - 02:56 AM (#1186645)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: Ebbie

Then why are the UKers hammering on the issue? (Sorry, guys!)

16 May 04 - 11:39 AM (#1186778)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: pdq

Met... the idea that the promoters of the Earthday site have to be "masochists" in order to slant results, lie or agressively promote an extreme Leftist agenda is absurd! I went to college with this type of activist and I know how many of them think. They feel that the end justifies the means.

Yes, the Ecological Footprint Quiz is rigged to make Americans look and feel bad. Period.

16 May 04 - 12:45 PM (#1186813)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: Metchosin

pdq, maybe it was slanted to make the Scots feel sanctimonious.*BG* With my lifestyle I'd have comparatively small footprint there.

Well, as they say, there are lies, damned lies and statistics. Myself, I've never noticed the political right to be a tad bit squeamish about having the end justify the means either. Whether you're a self serving left wing prick or a self serving right wing prick is irrelevant.

16 May 04 - 12:59 PM (#1186819)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: pdq

Met... we know which type of "prick" you choose to believe. *BG* Also, you are too bright to use one wrong to justify another wrong.

At least you and Blackcatter "walk the walk" as well as "talk the talk". Now if Blackcatter were to move to BC he could claim a "footprint" of about 2.0 instead of 8.

16 May 04 - 01:50 PM (#1186845)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: Metchosin

No you don't, pdq. Personally, I don't choose to believe any prick, out of hand. LOL

Blackcatter may find getting around on his or her scooter a bit uncomfortable during the winter months and the public transportation sucks but hey, why not? The climate's great for growing potatoes, people here are usually pretty good at helping their neighbours get around and we always have room for the sanctimonious.

16 May 04 - 08:20 PM (#1186969)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: Bill Hahn//\\

Why is gasolne so expensive---just that nothing else. Probably a combination of Geo. W.'s pigheaded policies, the selfishness of those who really "need" SUVs in big cities, and, finally, the "who cares" attitude of those with the gas guzzlers until their financial bubble bursts. I speak of the U S only since I do not claim to know reasons elsewhere.

The price of gasoline in the U S is now taking approx. 12.00 US out of the weekly money of families. In a low to middle income family that can only help slow the economy, cause layoffs, and, finally, lead to if not a depression then a recession.

I have heard, however, that in California the Gov. and others are upset and trading their Hummers in for SUVs. What a wonderful and selfless thing to do.(This being electronic posting---I add the disclaimer about this being alleged humor).

Bill Hahn

07 Jun 04 - 05:52 PM (#1202297)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: GUEST

I wish americans would stop moaning about the price of petrol hitting $2 per gallon, thats nothing compared to what we pay in the uk at clost to $6 dollars per gallon.

Americans should stop wasting fuel driving stupid SUVs and so forth, european cars have smaller engines, yet go the same speed and burn much less fuel. What makes more sense?

07 Jun 04 - 06:31 PM (#1202326)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: Strick

Strick, using the first four items from the website you cited, I ran the figures through the Consumer Price Index calculator here. The increase in the CPI, assuming that the prices cited in your website were current as of the last time the site was updated (December 26, 2002 when I visited it a few minutes ago), at the end of 2003 (the last year for which inflation figures are available) the items would cost, per gallon:

Coffee: USD 0.72
Unleaded gasoline: USD 1.42
Kool-Aid: USD 1.89
Clorox: USD 2.25

Without running out to my car and checking, I believe was paying USD 1.60 for a gallon of unleaded petrol at the end of December, 2003. (And why would I buy a gallon of Clorox bleach when the house brand would work and about USD 1.00/gallon cheaper?)

This is NOT to say that petrol in the US is not cheaper than anywhere else -- it is. But I don't think that the increase can be attributed solely to the average increase in the CPI, either.

Sorry I didn't get back to this thread and see this, Rapaire. The current increase in prices has nothing to do with the CPI. It's mostly a risk premium, along with the effects refinery constraints and some people speculating on crude prices. Without those factors the price would be more inline with inflation. Remember that not everything moves in lock step with the CPI, which can be a flawed measure (I rather use the GDP inflator for example) and for many, many years gasoline prices didn't even remotely keep up with inflation. That's mostly what the link I posted was trying to say, that gasoline prices are largely independent of the CPI and for most of the last 20 years it was grossly under inflated.

Todays prices (well, prices up to the break in price of crude late last week) are a temporary aberration.

08 Jun 04 - 01:13 AM (#1202465)
Subject: RE: BS: Why is gasoline so expensive?
From: JohnInKansas

Iraqui Gas Price.

no comment.

John