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28 Mar 04 - 04:54 PM (#1148396) Subject: Creativity Loves Misery From: Jerry Rasmussen Many years ago, a friend of mine expressed concern about my life taking a right angle turn for the better. We'd helped to carry each other through some disasterous stretches in our lives and he was concerned that I wouldn't be able to write songs anymore if I wasn't miserable. An odd concept (and totally untrue, at least for me.) I know that times of great stress can produce masterpieces of art, but do you think that you have to be miserable to be creative? My friend's attitude was that it was unhappiness that produces the pearl of a song, just like a sand grain in an oyster can be the stimulus for the production of a pearl. My friend was afraid that I would be producing oyster stew rather than pearls. The kind of songs I've written have changed over the years, but I think that's natural. I'd be concerned if I just kept turning out the same stuff. Same thing with my instumental ability. I can't say that it's gotten better, but at least new ways of expressing myself have come with good times. As I told my friend, if you need to be miserable to be creative, I hope I never write another song. What is your experience, folks? Jerry |
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28 Mar 04 - 05:38 PM (#1148422) Subject: RE: Creativity Loves Misery From: GUEST,John Hardly I think there's obviously something to it. Here's how I'd outline it... Good art -- like literature and music needs conflict, needs obstacles to most fully describe the human condition. We can, with our imaginations do a reasonable facsimili of that conflict -- even use our memories... ...but as every artist knows, there is a HUGE difference when working from a live model. That, and comfort breeds laziness. |
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28 Mar 04 - 05:42 PM (#1148426) Subject: RE: Creativity Loves Misery From: harvey andrews No, that's too sweeping a generalisation, but there is a grain of truth in it. Something must be needing to be said, good or bad, angry or gentle, sour or sweet. So in that sense it irritates the imagination until creativity relieves the tension and cures the itch. However, I find it far more difficult to write a song about being happy, in love, feeling good, etc, that doesn't come out like some gooey confection that embarasses me.It's so hard to avoid cliche. But the trying is everything to the creation of a work that might be different, that might have found a new way of saying what has been said thousands of times before, because it all has been said before, over and over again. To refer to another thread "were we ever that young", the young can't have the reference to the body of work we older writers have absorbed through decades of listening, so they use images and words that to them are fresh and new.To us they're as old as the hills. Somehow, the minor chords open avenues of lyric still unexplored, whereas the major put you in competition with a century of popular writing, and a century of overused cliches. |
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28 Mar 04 - 05:48 PM (#1148430) Subject: RE: Creativity Loves Misery From: Peace It has been a case of the extremes for me, Jerry. Some of my better songs have derived from 'misery' of a sort, but some others have come from great happiness. What has always been necessary for me is the mind set with which I started writing the song. If I know I won't be able to maintain it, and if I know the song will be 'good' (in my own opinion), then I will simply work through. One of the things I wrote that I personally feel is a 'better' thing I've done, took about sixty hours straight. It has a unity, though it's maybe a little too sombre for my taste today, these 30 years later. Another was a labour that had a deadline to it, and I was able to do that in about 40 hours. In my opinion, however, there is always a spark that leads to good writing of any sort, a germ of an idea. This is a thread I will follow closely. Ya done it again. Bruce M |
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28 Mar 04 - 06:14 PM (#1148446) Subject: RE: Creativity Loves Misery From: Mudlark Nicely put, Harvey Andrews. Your last paragraph sums up my feelings on the matter completely. |
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28 Mar 04 - 06:49 PM (#1148480) Subject: RE: Creativity Loves Misery From: McGrath of Harlow I'm sure most have us have enough bad times in our own lives, and the lives of people we care for, to equip us for making songs about that side of life, if we're into making songs at all. (Occasionally I've run into people who seem to have come through without any bad things coming close enough to touch them. They always seem very strange people.) (Here's a link to a song I just posted, which came out of a couple of small "disasters"...) |
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28 Mar 04 - 07:36 PM (#1148505) Subject: RE: Creativity Loves Misery From: Amos Creaivity is enmeshed with experience, but it doesn't seem to really matter whether it is the thrill of exhilerating success or the misery of oppression. Creativity requires forms and experience of things and the embraceent of change to come out at its best. Misery tends to be easier to notice, because it hangs up the attention more than success does. But any real experience will do, the spicier the better! A |
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28 Mar 04 - 07:47 PM (#1148518) Subject: RE: Creativity Loves Misery From: mooman I find I tend surpisingly to be much more creative when "stressed out of my box", e.g. when I've had such a bad day at work it's an effort to even think of getting an instrument out of its case (but I have to because of a rehearsal or band get together), than when I've got plenty of time on my hands. Peace moo |
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28 Mar 04 - 08:19 PM (#1148544) Subject: RE: Creativity Loves Misery From: Jerry Rasmussen I may end up being the exception (maybe the lone exception) in this conversation. Maybe that's because I've never written a heavy percentage of songs that reflect my hard times. When I have, I've tended to temper them with an outside perspective. For example, I wrote a song about the break-up of my first marriage. The verses are despondent and hopeless: What do you do when the good times are gone? Sit by the window and wait for the dawn And you can't remember how things went so wrong, anymore What does it matter how hard you tried Or how many times you kept it inside There's no more to say, and nothing to hide, anymore And then the chorus has a nice sing-along from the audience" Nobody wants to hear a sad song We've all got troubles of our own, of our own My songs have almost always been a reaction to an experience... upsetting, painful, or enjoyable. Many of my songs have just started coming out in response to a good night of music with friends, something I've read, part of a conversation I've overheard, or someone who has touched my heart. Some are just playful. I rarely write songs in the first person, and feel like I am often an observer when I write. To me, creativity is being in tune with the world, and the people around you. By nature, it's neither joyful or miserable. Jerry |
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28 Mar 04 - 11:24 PM (#1148652) Subject: RE: Creativity Loves Misery From: wysiwyg Well, misery may spark creativity, but of a lower order than creativity sparked by joy, and the art reflects this. The highest art lifts us above ourselves, above what we think of as the human condition, to a state that embraces the possibility of joy, if not leading immediately to a state of joy, itself. Just below that is art that accurately portrays the human condition, misery included. I suppose in order to artciulate that misery one must know it intimately. I would bet tho that the act of creating, in that misery, lifts the creative one closer to their own joy. So I suppose art created from misery may be therapeutic art-- to the artist, at least. To be therapeutic to the observer, it would have to be aimed at a place where the key aspect of the misery in that intersecting moment is the familiar internal message, "I am alone in this." That spot in us can use a little misery-portrayal, in the early stages of any particular healing, but it's not satisfing for long, unless one considers addiction to be satisfying; it can be quite addictive. I guess for the artist as well. Hey! If we are created in God's image, do you s'pose he was having the misery when He created that, um, whatchacallit, "Creation"? :~) ~Susan On the other hand-- No denying brain chemistry has an effect on creativity, but the manic state at least appears to be equally as productive as the depressed.... My brain is straining; I need to go to sleep.... |
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28 Mar 04 - 11:36 PM (#1148661) Subject: RE: Creativity Loves Misery From: GUEST,freda most of my songs are written when happy, inspired or mischievous. One moving song just came into my head, when i was in an aeroplane flying away from a profoundly disturbing experience. i do my best artwork when upset or grieving, it doesn't mean the artwork is full of negative images, i just seem to care about it more. freda |
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29 Mar 04 - 12:15 AM (#1148684) Subject: RE: Creativity Loves Misery From: Amos Jerry and Susan, you guys are right up my alley! A |
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29 Mar 04 - 01:14 AM (#1148706) Subject: RE: Creativity Loves Misery From: Art Thieme Hello Jerry !!! Good to hear your voice calling. I do believe you're talking about me a few years ago. BUT that's not exactly what I said---or what I meant to say. I did say that someone I knew hadn't written many songs at all since Prozac became a lifeline for her. The songs she had written before were great ones, three of which I had recorded. They were about hard times in deep mines in a harsh sparsely populated northern climate and how those things could devastate the folks living through that stuff. That said, my own feeling was that TRAGEDY was where the great literature and serious songs came from. Then I went on to say that if this tragedy was the basis of serious literature and art, then COMEDY, which is often called "comic relief, must be RELIEF FROM something. And that something is the tragedy that is the basis of life. Buddhists philosophy (not religion) allows them to see nthis, accept it, and move on knowing the truth of it and also that it just "IS" and only matters if you let it depress you. |
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29 Mar 04 - 01:34 AM (#1148713) Subject: RE: Creativity Loves Misery From: Art Thieme My mouse just went crazy. Every time I tried to start a new sentence or paragraph here by placing my cursor on the screen and left-clicking the mouse it would blue highlight me entire thing I was wanting to post. And I couldn't get rid of the blue highlight unless I clicked in the space where the name of this thread is printed. So I shut down and re-booted. That seems to've fixed it. Anyhow, Jerry, if you weren't referring to me, all this is wasted writing. But it's always good to be in touch with you. I have some good/great news to tell you. Someone we know was told by her health care pro that she no longer needs any more ECT treatments for the forseeable future !!! Our efforts have born good fruit. A tremendous relief ! For sure, Love to you and Ruth ! Art |
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29 Mar 04 - 04:21 AM (#1148788) Subject: RE: Creativity Loves Misery From: Jeanie First of all: that's very good news to hear, Art. All good wishes. Secondly, as I was reading through these really interesting posts, I was thinking to myself: nobody has mentioned tragedy/misery inspiring comedy, and there, you went and said it for me, Art ! As far as straight, serious songwriting is concerned, the half dozen or so I have ever written I have kept safely away from public consumption because they are so bloomin' miserable. They are what I call "No Exit" songs. They served their personal purpose for me at the time (as people have been discussing in the 'Were We Ever That Young?' thread). The only one I have ever dared give a public airing was much more recent, and I posted it here a year or so ago, about the Winter Solstice. The difference with that one is that it was born out of a very deep sorrow and emptiness, but it does have a positive "Way Out" sign at the end: the 'outside perspective' that you spoke about, Jerry. In the same way as I can't now survive in the world thinking that there is 'no exit' from the hard times, I don't think I could ever finish anything which doesn't have some positive turn to it, somewhere, no matter the circumstance that inspired it. There is no doubt in my mind that the tough times are the ones which spur people on: it's a kind of survival instinct. What we do to survive depends on different personalities, I think. I don't think it is necessarily age-related, either. My survival has always been towards comedy. When I was about eight, I 'survived' a miserable summer holiday in a grim guest house in Norfolk by writing dozens spoof illustrated hotel brochures, and I have been doing the same kind of thing ever since, creating ever-so-slightly (or tremendously outrageously) over the top characters and situations for stories, monologues or drama scenes. Somehow, being totally serious doesn't suit me - though on every occasion, the spur has been needing to cope with/deal with some kind of pain or obstacle, and that is the layer underneath it all. Here is a quote from a wonderful old book: "The Craft of Comedy", which is an exchange of letters written by the actress Athene Seyler: "What, then, is at the root of comedy ? The essentials are: lack of balance, distortion, over-emphasis or under-emphasis, and surprise. Now, all these things are only relative to something else: the truth." For me, when the truth of life and the living of it is too much to take straight, I *have* to have the "lack of balance, distortion, over- or under-emphasis, and surprise" in order to survive. So I turn to comedy - either created by others, or by creating it myself. - jeanie |
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29 Mar 04 - 05:08 AM (#1148812) Subject: RE: Creativity Loves Misery From: Dave of Mawkin Perhaps it is because of creative that people get miserable.Ignorance is bliss and all that? I dont personally believe this, but I do remember reading is somewhere, some artist said it is becuase he has the capability of seeing the truth in the world that he gets sad, whereas the average John Smith (apologises to any John Smith out there) who reads 'The Sun' doesnt care for much as he doesnt see things in the same way.I hope im making sense and not just rambling. I personally believe that Creativity and Depression are not linked whatsoever as creativity is random, its a chaos phenomenon that happens when it happens, no one really knows why it happens it just does.Isnt that the best bit about being an artist, not knowing why but just being pleased it does? |
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29 Mar 04 - 05:45 AM (#1148825) Subject: RE: Creativity Loves Misery From: George Papavgeris Agreed about the randomness of creativity, Dave. It's all around us, all inside us, in a chaotic state. But what I believe happens when we are miserable is that we are (over-)sensitised, and this sensitivity to events and states of the world around us provides a channel for the creative ideas to focus and come out through. It doesn't have to be misery. Any other state of mind that creates strong sensitivity/vulnerability will do. Very intense happiness, for example. A normal happy state is not enough, however - not intense enough. |
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29 Mar 04 - 05:46 AM (#1148826) Subject: RE: Creativity Loves Misery From: McGrath of Harlow I'm reminded of something Roisin White said in a concert this weekend at the National Folk Festival about how, what with the boom time in Ireland and the Celtic Tiger stuff noone is emigrating, so there won't be any more of the emigration songs which have been the mainstay of the tradition. (It was a tongue in cheek comment - whch shouldn't need pointing out, but it sometimes does, what with the different modes of irony around the Cat. I don't want to divert the thread into a discussion about emigration and the sorrows of Erin.) |
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29 Mar 04 - 07:31 AM (#1148902) Subject: RE: Creativity Loves Misery From: Jerry Rasmussen Maybe I could have titled this Contentedness isn't creative. Or maybe it's that old four letter word so many people fear: Change Is Creative. Status Quo Creates Stagnation. A point you made, Dave, is one I find anything but "the truth:" You referred to an artist who said that "it is because he has the ability to see the truth in the world that he gets sad." I don't buy that for a minute. That's much like people who brag that they are honest, who rarely say a good thing about anyone or anything.. The "Truth" isn't necessarily depressing. It's just the "Truth." And Honesty isn't negative or positive. It's just Honesty. As my youngest son says, whenever he hears anyone say, "I tell it like it is," or "I'm not afraid to tell the truth," he heads for the nearest door. He knows that it's going to be negative or judgmental. That isn't because the "truth" or "honesty" are negative (or positive.) The person is just revealing their own attitude toward life. It's funny to me that people who try to be self-protective are so revealing about themselves in the things that they say. It's true, too, as someone said: you can write a basically happy song when you are feeling negative about your life. Sometimes, writing the song, or playing a song can be the catalyst for lifting yourself out of a depressed state by giving you a perspective you need. I think that great songs, poetry, novels and paintings can be (and are) created in any state of mind, from depressed to joyful. They may not necessarily reflect the state of mind. I agree with Susan in that I think that songs created in misery or great unhappiness are most commonly self-reflective and inward looking. Almost by definition. Many great, great works of art have been created in that state. Some have come from an artist who's life is tortured. I think that it is difficult to write outward-looking songs when you are depressed. Great art can also celebrate life, and that usually requires being able to look beyond yourself and the moment. And no, Art, it wasn't you who made the comment to me. It was another loving and loved friend of many years, Pat Conte. But, one of Pat's great loves in music is blues. I was never a blues writer, even when I was miserable. If anything, I ended up writing songs recalling times when I wasn't miserable, just as a healthy release. I wrote a line in a song I never finished to my satisfaction that said that I could only go back to the good times in my life in a song. Great art lasts. That includes you, Art. And what wonderful news. Makes me feel like writing a song! Jerry |
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29 Mar 04 - 07:34 AM (#1148908) Subject: RE: Creativity Loves Misery From: Bee-dubya-ell A lot of art made during difficult circumstances should be hidden in a closet until the crisis to which it was a response has been resolved. Then the artist should take a fresh look at it to see if it stands up on its own merits outside of the context in which it was created. Much art created during hard times serves a cathartic and healing function as well as being an artistic expression. It's sometimes hard to separate the two. I don't particularly want to listen to some guy working out his angst. Bruce |
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29 Mar 04 - 08:58 AM (#1148986) Subject: RE: Creativity Loves Misery From: Jerry Rasmussen Maybe that's what we need, Bruce. A sign at open mikes saying, "This Is an Angst-Free Room." Jerry |
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29 Mar 04 - 09:17 AM (#1149007) Subject: RE: Creativity Loves Misery From: Amos "No Whining in Song" :>) A |
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29 Mar 04 - 10:47 AM (#1149063) Subject: RE: Creativity Loves Misery From: Art Thieme I thoroughly and respectfully disagree. Richard Llewellen was experiencing a depressing scene in the Welsh coal industry's demise in his magnificent book "How Green Was My Valley". It was his only book. And then he took his own life. As my old uncle once said, "Suicide is the sincerest form of self criticism." ;-) ;-) ;-) Art |
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29 Mar 04 - 10:57 AM (#1149080) Subject: RE: Creativity Loves Misery From: freda underhill the flower of the lemon tree is fragrant and sweet, the fruit is bitter, potent and nourishing. art created during hard times is necessary for the artist. it doesn't have to be narcissistic, its merely a method of moving energy creatively, to make a new act, to extend, or find some amazing space inside. the gift is to see things differently, and to be able to express that. |
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29 Mar 04 - 11:17 AM (#1149097) Subject: RE: Creativity Loves Misery From: Amos Art: Sure. HEmingway's brains were also spattered in self-obliteration after a long creative life and a pathetic encounter with ECT. But that is not the root of creativity. A |
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29 Mar 04 - 12:00 PM (#1149122) Subject: RE: Creativity Loves Misery From: McGrath of Harlow I distinguish between happiness, and cheerfullness. As Chesterton's Father Brown said "If ever I murdered somebody, I dare say it might be an Optimist...People like frequent laughter, but I don't think they like a permanent smile. Cheerfullness without humour is a very trying thing." I think hard times do tend to make for the best songs. In hard times you can't afford to be too miserable. |
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29 Mar 04 - 01:05 PM (#1149145) Subject: RE: Creativity Loves Misery From: Jerry Rasmussen This is one we could go around on forever, because there IS no answer. Sure, some people might only produce one great work and then commit suicide. That's not proof that being depressed produces the greatest art. I think that there is an entropy that colors the way we value things. Comedies rarely win awards because they are considered somehow "less" than drama. Comedy is thought of as lacking in substance. Like everything else in life, great art is produced as a product of just about every emotion. There are plenty of writers and musicians who just seemed to have one or two good pieces in them. To me, Call It Sleep is a great, great book, but Roth never produced another work of such brilliance, and went something like twenty or thirty years without producing anything. Some of us just have one Louie Louie in us. :-) Jerry |
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29 Mar 04 - 01:29 PM (#1149179) Subject: RE: Creativity Loves Misery From: Amos Anyway, the premise that creativity loves misery is bushwah, IMHO. Creativity bubbles up under certain tensions, and sometimes misery is involv ed in those experiences. But that in no way implies and exclusive link. This is similar to the old saw that you have to be neurotic to be an artist. It just ain't so, Ma! It's true you have to be able to disagree, but that don't make you crazy! A |
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29 Mar 04 - 05:05 PM (#1149400) Subject: RE: Creativity Loves Misery From: Santa It could also be that there are many more ways of things going wrong than there are of things going right. Thus more material to work with. |
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30 Mar 04 - 01:12 PM (#1150179) Subject: RE: Creativity Loves Misery From: McGrath of Harlow Stories with happy endings are great - but I can't think of any good stories that don't have some rough patches along the way. Looking back at hard times you've got through can be a very rewarding thing. For example - here's a song that always cheers me up, because it's like that. But it wouldn't, if it the story had been cheerful all the way through. |
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30 Mar 04 - 07:24 PM (#1150528) Subject: RE: Creativity Loves Misery From: michaelr If you look at the canon of Scots/Irish/English traditional song, the majority of them are sad songs. It certainly appears that personal loss and hardship (being the norm in past centuries) have been the inspiration for more great songwriting than have happy circumstances. "No whining in song" would be a maxim that trad lovers apply to contemporary writing, somewhat unfairly, I'd say, as there is lots of lamenting (=whining) in the old songs. Why is it that that's OK with us, but new writers get slagged for it? It's been said (by whom??) that all real artists must suffer to produce their art. I don't know whether that's true, but I do know that I derive more pleasure from listening to a heartfelt lament than a jolly ditty. It just gets me more emotionally involved -- which is what I ask from music. Cheers, Michael |