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30 Apr 04 - 04:07 AM (#1174712) Subject: BS: Is Ballet Dancing Rubbish? From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull rubbish! |
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30 Apr 04 - 04:12 AM (#1174715) Subject: RE: BS: Is Ballet Dancing Rubbish? From: Ellenpoly Adding to your growing list, huh jOhn?..zz..e |
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30 Apr 04 - 04:14 AM (#1174717) Subject: RE: BS: Is Ballet Dancing Rubbish? From: greg stephens Yes oof course it is John, as you know very well. |
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30 Apr 04 - 04:32 AM (#1174740) Subject: RE: BS: Is Ballet Dancing Rubbish? From: el ted Yes. It's full of mincing pufta's. |
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30 Apr 04 - 05:19 AM (#1174774) Subject: RE: BS: Is Ballet Dancing Rubbish? From: GUEST,Ellenpoly Nothing more expected from you either, el ted..zz..e |
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30 Apr 04 - 05:24 AM (#1174777) Subject: RE: BS: Is Ballet Dancing Rubbish? From: Dave Hanson Elitist crap, same as opera, what's that all about then ? fat men and women yodelling in slow time. eric |
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30 Apr 04 - 05:32 AM (#1174786) Subject: RE: BS: Is Ballet Dancing Rubbish? From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull eric-we already decide that opera is rubbish, see seperate thread. |
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30 Apr 04 - 05:34 AM (#1174789) Subject: RE: BS: Is Ballet Dancing Rubbish? From: GUEST,Tap dancer "elitist crap" now were have I heard that mentioned before, oh yes it was about folk clubs. You are all jealous because ballet dancers have BIG sandwich boxes, some of you are not like them, and some of you cant get your hand on them. |
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30 Apr 04 - 05:53 AM (#1174807) Subject: RE: BS: Is Ballet Dancing Rubbish? From: Dave Hanson Thanks jOhn, are my postings becoming rubbish ? or wre they already ? eric |
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30 Apr 04 - 05:57 AM (#1174813) Subject: RE: BS: Is Ballet Dancing Rubbish? From: Dave Hanson Guest Tap dancer, do you mean ' lunch box '? if so I wouldn't want to and I doubt that Fat Lucy [ Pavarotti ] has even seen his for the last 30 years. eric |
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30 Apr 04 - 06:01 AM (#1174815) Subject: RE: BS: Is Ballet Dancing Rubbish? From: el ted At least he isn't a mincer. |
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30 Apr 04 - 06:52 AM (#1174838) Subject: RE: BS: Is Ballet Dancing Rubbish? From: GUEST,noddy ballet dancers are fitter than most footballers. |
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30 Apr 04 - 07:44 AM (#1174866) Subject: RE: BS: Is Ballet Dancing Rubbish? From: Pied Piper Another elitist, vastly and undemocratically subsidised "Art form" I once went to see the Ballet Rembert doing "Ghost dances", the music was great (Incantation) spoilt only by the dancers inability to hit the ground in time with the music. |
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30 Apr 04 - 07:47 AM (#1174868) Subject: RE: BS: Is Ballet Dancing Rubbish? From: GUEST,earthling They showed a ballet version of Beatrix Potter's Tales from the Riverbank one Christmas. That wasn't rubbish. It was cute and furry. |
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30 Apr 04 - 07:51 AM (#1174872) Subject: RE: BS: Is Ballet Dancing Rubbish? From: fiddler I wish I was as fit as most ballet dancers! What a body - think what those girls could do in bed? Sorry debasing the art form..... I don't like it to much but it does get the mind going - alright call me a ........ better than being a bigot! Andy |
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30 Apr 04 - 12:29 PM (#1175095) Subject: RE: BS: Is Ballet Dancing Rubbish? From: CarolC Ballet Dancing is wonderful. |
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30 Apr 04 - 01:14 PM (#1175133) Subject: RE: BS: Is Ballet Dancing Rubbish? From: greg stephens I admit it's clever,standing on the end of your toes, but why bother? I bet it hurts. |
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30 Apr 04 - 01:21 PM (#1175136) Subject: RE: BS: Is Ballet Dancing Rubbish? From: CarolC Standing on the end of your toes is glorious. |
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30 Apr 04 - 03:21 PM (#1175219) Subject: RE: BS: Is Ballet Dancing Rubbish? From: GUEST,Van It's obviously too-too refined for jOhn |
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01 May 04 - 01:29 AM (#1175592) Subject: RE: BS: Is Ballet Dancing Rubbish? From: GUEST,fred miller mixed bag. mostly comes from an idealy antique notion of bodies which is rubbish, and a vocabularly of movement which is rubbish. Most of the dancers and artistic directors would like to do more reasonable art, but can't sell it to stupid farts who want to see yet again that swan dragged across the stage like a shopping cart with a bad wheel. Lovely!! Enchanting!! um. Anyone who doesn't want to fuck a good dancer is gay, or, wait, if you're a guy and if the dancer is a guy, and you don't, then you're not-gay, or, whatever, you do the math, I have a headache. My 7 year old boy taught me how to enjoy it, though. At the end of every showoffy bit of fluff just shout BALLET! at the top of your lungs. It's fun. You'll like it. I grew up on modern, with a modern dancer who can choreograph anyone who can move into a clear and evocative thing about something. The ballet crowd hates good dance for reasons I can't fathom. You can't please them unless they know they're supposed to like it, and it fits their fantasy of themselves as cultured aristocrats. They are in the precise sense of ther word, retarded. I'm proud I met Hanya Holm, and the admirable Bella Lewitski. The life of a dancer per se is usually shorter than the life of the person who used to dance. It's sad people won't watch their dances, because then they are gone. All that effort and beauty lost in the wind. You can't really record it it in any way. Catch up. Ballet. Is it just me, or have you met 5 to 7 broken ballerinas for every one who can still do it? What does that say about a cruel and stupid art? And most of them look like marionettes compared to our retired Helen Star, whose hands had a quality like a silent film heroine. Her heels were crippled, and people said she was too old to play Juliet--as if they were at a Zefferelli film or something. I feel that people are generally just too stupid for dance as an art form, they don't get it, and they don't deserve it. |
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01 May 04 - 02:19 AM (#1175603) Subject: RE: BS: Is Ballet Dancing Rubbish? From: Jack the Sailor Some of us just think it's beautiful and don't really give a crap whether anyone else approves or not. |
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01 May 04 - 02:23 AM (#1175605) Subject: RE: BS: Is Ballet Dancing Rubbish? From: CarolC That Jack the Sailor post was from me, but JtS says he concurs. |
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01 May 04 - 05:36 AM (#1175667) Subject: RE: BS: Is Ballet Dancing Rubbish? From: The Stage Manager Is someone trying to wind me up here? I was Stage Manager for Ballet Rambert (Now Rambert Dance Company) when Ghost Dances came into the repertoire. The music was actually by Inti Illimani and the piece inspired by the appalling political oppression in Chile under Pinochet, at the time. Sorry if you find these sorts of public statements by artists and choreographers elitist. It was performed in Gdansk Poland, just after solidarity had been supressed. No one in that theatre at that time could possibly have misunderstood the message it brought to the people of Poland. Particularly as Marie Rambert, was herself Polish. The singer Steve Tilston was also on that tour playing in a piece called Sergeant Early's dream (along with Maggie Boyle). He has written a song called Polonaise about that tour which is on one of his albums. Frankly if the vast majority of musicians I have worked with were as dedicated and worked as hard as your average dancer, they'd be a lot better for it. I've also worked on UK tours by the Bolshoi and Kirov Ballets. Sorry guys but in what I hope is my slightly better informed opinion you guys are talking through your bottoms, and showing an age old and ridiculous prejudice which is largely unjustified. SM |
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01 May 04 - 07:09 AM (#1175682) Subject: RE: BS: Is Ballet Dancing Rubbish? From: Dave Hanson Then why is it so bloody expensive to go and see one ? I live in West Yorkshire and you don't get kids from council estates going to see ballets. WHY ? cause they can't bloodywell afford to go thats why. It is kept so expensive to keep the riff raff out. Think about this , it's only a few years ago that Placido Domingo refused to sing at his London concert because [ he said ] the tickets were far too expensive for his ordinary fans to come and see him. eric |
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01 May 04 - 09:05 AM (#1175738) Subject: RE: BS: Is Ballet Dancing Rubbish? From: mack/misophist As my old Dad always used to say, "How can they call it art when it's plain to see the girls aren't naked. Art is naked." |
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01 May 04 - 09:12 AM (#1175744) Subject: RE: BS: Is Ballet Dancing Rubbish? From: greg stephens Sorry, Stage manager, but no amount of intellectual argument will persuade someone to like ballet who loathes it. Or to loathe ballet if they like it. That's the way of the world. Chacun a son gout. There's no accounting for tastes. De gustibus non disputandum est. |
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01 May 04 - 12:27 PM (#1175895) Subject: RE: BS: Is Ballet Dancing Rubbish? From: The Stage Manager I take your point Greg, but Eric raises a fundamental issue, ticket prices are way too high. When I was with Rambert we particularly enjoyed the occasions when we got to perform for what Eric calls to call 'Rif-Raf', usually abroad. "Rif Raf" often have an instinctive understanding for non verbal art forms, and the appreciation is more genuine. On joining Rambert I was particularly struck by the range and depth of expression that dance was capable of. It was not something that had occurred to me previously. Certainly most of the performers within the company would prefer to perform for everyone who wants to see them regardless of monthly income. I think Eric would also be surprised at the social origins of some of the performers and staff. The Billy Elliot phenomenon has been going on for some time. It is a real problem in the UK that Opera and Dance/Ballet has become the ghettoised as entertainment of "Toffs". This is far less the case abroad. My own view is that if The Arts Council had any balls they'd be pitching a big tent in the middle of Eric's council estate, and let the people there make up their own minds and meet some of the people involved in 'the arts' . These days the arts seem to be run by accountants, and we know the sort of houses that accountants live in. SM |
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01 May 04 - 12:48 PM (#1175917) Subject: RE: BS: Is Ballet Dancing Rubbish? From: Don Firth Gawd!! What a collection of philistines!! Don Firth |
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01 May 04 - 12:58 PM (#1175923) Subject: RE: BS: Is Ballet Dancing Rubbish? From: GUEST,Fred Miller Nobody said anybody has to care what anyone else thinks, but my point of view is not that ballet is elitist, but that it is crude and tired and trite and illustrationy. I don't care if it delivers a message, so does a postal worker. The better ballets are really more modern, less classical ballet, simply because all that effort of choreographers and dancers really does add up to something. You can't really respect the work of dancers at the same time you deny their growth and direction. It would be like saying um, "in my more informed opinion, this is not elitist, you're just full of crap" which is a pretty elitist way of saying something isn't elitist. When Barishnikov was here with the Mark Morris Modern Dance company they did good straight modern and the ballet audience HATED it. I think it would be better if it were MORE elitist, less commercial pandering to people who want to pose as cultured aristocrats, more for people who really like it. I know these people. They buy and patronize the stuff they are supposed to have, whether they like it or not. I see it all the time, selling them $50,000 rugs and stuff, then explaining to them they're supposed to look handmade, like that. Other people certainly may genuinely like ballet more than I do, sure--I used to love old dry brittle lute music, loved it. But nobody can tell me ballet isn't struggling with a largely phoney parasitic audience of posing idiots. I happen to prefer modern dance, myself. |
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01 May 04 - 01:11 PM (#1175932) Subject: RE: BS: Is Ballet Dancing Rubbish? From: GUEST,Ms Penelope Rutledge I have long avoided returning to this pestilential forum, but I cannot stand idly by while idiots like jOhn from Hull start threads abusing the arts, and other idiots persist in adding their witlessisms to his. Ballet is a noble and beautiful art form and deserves better than to be picked apart by cretinous morons from dysfunctional family backgrounds. * PR |
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01 May 04 - 01:13 PM (#1175933) Subject: RE: BS: Is Ballet Dancing Rubbish? From: CarolC Last time I attended a ballet was in Martinsburg, West Virginia. Martinsburg is a small, blue collar, working-class town in a mostly rural, mountainous, working-class, coal-mining state. It was at the community theater. The dancers were from dancing schools in that town and some nearby towns. The dancing, while hardly world class quality, was nevertheless very satisfying to watch. And I think the dancers quite enjoyed what they were doing. I got in for free because I was dating one of the technical directors, but I think the tickets probably cost only a few dollars (US) more than movie tickets. |
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01 May 04 - 05:35 PM (#1176096) Subject: RE: BS: Is Ballet Dancing Rubbish? From: dianavan I love ballet but hardly ever get to see it because the tickets cost so much. I also appreciate ballet as a wonderful discipline for girls and boys. It is no different than learning how to play a musical instrument. You practice and then you want to perform. Same as athletics. I actually regret that my son was encouraged to become an athlete. Looking back at old photos, I now realize that his grace could easily have made him a dancer. Luckily, he found this out himself. Although he is still athletic, he balances this with dancing and yoga. I used to think opera was rubbish but my daughter convinced me to buy season tickets. Learn the story first! Its much more enjoyable. I go to marvel at the set designs and the costumes. I also attend folk festivals and enjoy myself in that scene. Why limit yourself? |
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01 May 04 - 07:37 PM (#1176161) Subject: RE: BS: Is Ballet Dancing Rubbish? From: Phot I was introduced to ballet many years ago by a very good friend, the first performance I saw was, La Femmale Gardae (Sorry about the spelling) at Covent Garden. I was, and still am hooked! Ballet is a fantastic art form to watch and experience, go buy a ticket and try it, you never know, you might like it! Wassail! Chris |
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01 May 04 - 09:01 PM (#1176209) Subject: RE: BS: Is Ballet Dancing Rubbish? From: GUEST,Fred Miller Well, I'm from a dysfunctional family background, but still I say, the medium of dance is the body, and the attitudes toward the body expressed by classical ballet might be a little less than noble, maybe not very broadminded, really. It's beautiful sometimes but so is other dance that doesn't smell so funky. Ballet has very little to do with how we really see ourselves, I hope. And then therefore it is merely athletic and fine, but not poetic and profound. I worked for a Ballet, and the artistic directors were hemmed in by the audience. Go to it, by all means, but for god's sake see some good modern--not that "interpretive dance" gunk, whatever that is, but real stuff. It's not that expensive when and if you can find it, and it's good, or good also, if you wish. |
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02 May 04 - 12:51 AM (#1176275) Subject: RE: BS: Is Ballet Dancing Rubbish? From: dianavan In Vancouver there are many forms of dance. We are lucky because there are so many cultures here and one of the art forms they seem to hang on to is traditional dance. They also teach others. Actually, many, many children are enrolled in a wide variety of dance classes. I really like modern dance and recently enjoyed a dance in our community that was performed outside, along a historical path. I always have loved dance but feel that it has been misunderstood for a long time. Seems that many (including musicians) do not value dance as a viable musical expression. I love dance and I don't mean the kind of dance that requires a partner and seems to be part of the courting ritual. In fact, that kind of dance always intimidated me. I stay far away from it. What I enjoy is the intimate connection between the dancer and the music. |
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02 May 04 - 02:54 AM (#1176305) Subject: RE: BS: Is Ballet Dancing Rubbish? From: Benjamin Personally, I enjoy ballet a lot. The dancers are amazing! Also, some of the best symphonic music was writen for the ballet. As for the price, I agree that it is generally to high, but I'm not sure anyone who throws that arguement out has any real idea of just how expensive it is to put on such a production. The endowment for the arts should be helping out here more than it does. Also, Indian Classical Dance is another great art form. I would highly recomend seeing it if you have the chance. I know that there will be a big performance this year at Seattle's Folklife Festival. It's well worth your time, not to mention the price you'll pay (the festival is free)! |
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02 May 04 - 12:38 PM (#1176351) Subject: RE: BS: Is Ballet Dancing Rubbish? From: Shimbo Darktree Good God, man, I just got off the opera thread! JOhn, why don't you take up songwriting? If you're this bored, it would be a great way to fill in time, and you could toss them into this melting pot, and we can all pass judgement from high as to whether they are rubbish! Oh yes, ballet ... seen it, don't like it. COnsists largely of dancers' shoes scuffing and spoiling some quite reasonable music. But why do you care whether we all like ballet or not, and whether we think it is rubbish or not? Can't you make up your own mind? How did I get sucked into this? I'm off to bed, to dream of writing songs that everyone absolutely adores as soon as they hear them. Now, there is a subject for a thread ... how can I write tunes to my songs so that they don't sound like "just another boring tune"? In hopes, Shimbo |
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02 May 04 - 08:51 PM (#1176602) Subject: RE: BS: Is Ballet Dancing Rubbish? From: mack/misophist Dear Benjamin: I have to disagree. The need to make the music "dance-able" and programatic has made ballet some of the worst of the classical repetoire. Sure, there are a few exceptions, but not many. |
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03 May 04 - 01:03 AM (#1176705) Subject: RE: BS: Is Ballet Dancing Rubbish? From: Benjamin "The need to make the music "dance-able"? Uh, what exactly do you think most forms in classical music are? |
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03 May 04 - 04:10 AM (#1176739) Subject: RE: BS: Is Ballet Dancing Rubbish? From: Ellenpoly jOhn, I'm now thinking you began a good thread, in spite of yourself. I studied ballet enough to know it's both difficult, and rewarding. There is a disipline involved that has helped me in many other aspects of my life. I grew up watching the greatest companies in the world, and found myself getting spoiled for watching anything but the best. Over the years, my interest has waned. I find other dance forms more interesting in that the dancers are not constricted to such a formal structure. I've also been put off by the soaring prices in all the performing arts. If there isn't some kind of stripping down back to basics, we are bound to lose our audiences to cheaper fare. The arts, whether it be ballet or opera, theatre, or folk music for that matter, needs to be accessable. Once it forgets that it's primary function is entertaining, enlightening, and uplifting people, they may as well pack it in...xx..e |
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03 May 04 - 12:17 PM (#1176934) Subject: RE: BS: Is Ballet Dancing Rubbish? From: Mudlark I enjoy watching good ballet, as much as I enjoy watching good figure skating or gymnastics. But I have to say, once having seen Robin Williams immitating ballet dancing ("fairy dust, fairy dust") it is difficult to ever again enjoy it purely. |
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03 May 04 - 12:48 PM (#1176957) Subject: RE: BS: Is Ballet Dancing Rubbish? From: GUEST Not John from Hull..again...when are we going to start to ignore this silly bugger. |
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03 May 04 - 02:44 PM (#1177041) Subject: RE: BS: Is Ballet Dancing Rubbish? From: Don Firth The need to make the music "dance-able" and programmatic has made ballet some of the worst of the classical repertoire. Really? The music for Les Sylphides was written first as a group of piano works by Chopin and was not originally intended for ballet. Other than transcribing the piano music for full orchestra, no substantial changes were made. The same holds true for several other ballets, such as Gaîté Parisienne (music by Offenbach) for example. Music first, then later choreographed and danced to. A few composers who wrote music specifically for ballet were Glazunov, Stravinski, Roussel, Copland, Delibes, Dvorak, Purcell, Prokofiev, Rimsky-Korsakov, and on and on for about six pages. The composer who is probably best known for his ballet music: much loved ballets with gorgeously lush music such as Swan Lake, Sleeping Beauty, and The Nutcracker, is, of course, Piotr Illitch Tchaikovsky. I take it that beyond the apparently narrow confines of your own taste, you don't listen to much music? Don Firth |
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03 May 04 - 05:36 PM (#1177159) Subject: RE: BS: Is Ballet Dancing Rubbish? From: mack/misophist My bona fides are: 10 years of classical piano, 2 years as 3rd clarinet in a small local orchestra, and a little experience as a super in the opera. For the sake of discussion, let's suppose that the best of the classical repetoire consists of 1000 hours of truly fine music. I maintain that at the most 20 hours of that is ballet. I don't count Purcell as a ballet composer. Yes, much of classical music is based on dance forms. The relationship, however, is very loose. Although trained dancers may be splendid athletes, I have always felt that both ballet and modern dance are UGLY. And, since most formal criticism is based on an analysis of personal experience and taste, I stand by my opinions. |
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03 May 04 - 05:37 PM (#1177160) Subject: RE: BS: Is Ballet Dancing Rubbish? From: mack/misophist In other words, yes ballet dancing is rubbish. |
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03 May 04 - 06:06 PM (#1177183) Subject: RE: BS: Is Ballet Dancing Rubbish? From: Don Firth I'm not exactly unacquainted with music. Three years University of Washington School of Music, two years at the Cornish School of the Arts, over fifty years singing folk songs and ballads and playing both folk and classic guitar, taught folk and classic guitar for several decades, worked as an announcer at a two different classical music radio stations over a period of years. You don't like ballet? You don't like opera? Okay. Nobody is making you llsten to anything you don't want to. But to call ballet and/or opera rubbish says more about you than it does about ballet and opera. Don Firth |
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03 May 04 - 06:39 PM (#1177210) Subject: RE: BS: Is Ballet Dancing Rubbish? From: Don Firth Note:— Purcell. An example of one of the early composers of ballet as distinct for simply "dance music." Not know primarily as a composer of ballet (at least, not as it developed later), but Dido and Aeneas and The Faery Queen contain fairly substantial ballet sequences, as did other stage works he composed. If you want to scratch him, I can add a half-dozen others from the same period. Don Firth |
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03 May 04 - 06:59 PM (#1177233) Subject: RE: BS: Is Ballet Dancing Rubbish? From: Sam L Ugly? wish you'd elaborate a little. I get sucked into ballet despite my better judgement. Although I generally feel it's a weird and distasteful aesthetic, it's seductive, like planned communities, Shaker villages, Playboy bunnies. I suppose I think dance is more temporal than other arts, doesn't keep well. Modern ugly? Kind of a big sweep, there. Well. Compared to polka, or Appalachian clogging, or urban breakdancing, or the fox trot, or the mashed potato, sure, but still. Gee. |
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03 May 04 - 09:11 PM (#1177339) Subject: RE: BS: Is Ballet Dancing Rubbish? From: mack/misophist Correction, Mr Firth. I never said I don't like opera. "Un Bel Di" may be the most beautiful song ever written. Nevertheless, my opinion also has merit, even though you may have more education and experience. Ugly is ugly, and seldom needs explanation. Mind your blood pressure, Mr Firth. |
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03 May 04 - 09:30 PM (#1177351) Subject: RE: BS: Is Ballet Dancing Rubbish? From: michaelr I'm with Don on this. It's amazing to me that jOhn from Hull keeps starting these witless threads. It's amazing to me that so many people take him seriously enough to actually answer his moronic questions. It's amazing to me that so many Mudcat members whom I had (through their posts) come to respect actually agree with his idiotic statements. New lows on Mudcat... :-( Michael |
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03 May 04 - 11:29 PM (#1177422) Subject: RE: BS: Is Ballet Dancing Rubbish? From: mack/misophist Moronic questions are sometimes the most interesting ones. They challenge our preconceptions. Although those from j0hn from Hull are most exceptionally moronic. |
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04 May 04 - 01:47 PM (#1177567) Subject: RE: BS: Is Ballet Dancing Rubbish? From: Don Firth Agreed. Sometimes the moronic questions precipitate fairly interesting discussions. No blood pressure problems, Mack. Last check-up (a month ago) it was 128 over 76, danged good for the number of miles I've got on the clock. What yanks my chain is this:— When you consider the longevity of these art forms (which means that centuries worth of patrons and audiences have felt they were worth supporting), the talent, effort, and dedication it takes for a performer to achieve the required skills, not to mention the talent and effort of the composers who wrote the music, the musicians who play it, the set and costume designers, and the support staff (carpenters, stage hands, etc.), and the fact that many people who really can't afford season tickets find ballet and/or opera enjoyable and inspiring enough to budget for them—and, incidentally, most of the audiences are made up of folks like this, not just rich, elite patrons—it strikes me that someone who dismisses the whole thing as "rubbish" is both ignorant and arrogant. Sorry, but that's my sincere and considered judgment and I'm sticking with it. I once had a U. of W. music professor ask me, "When are you going to stop wasting your time on these folk songs and start getting serious about your music?" He couldn't grasp the idea that folk music was anything one could be serious about. He may have had a PhD., but he was ignorant and arrogant. Don Firth |
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04 May 04 - 02:52 PM (#1177621) Subject: RE: BS: Is Ballet Dancing Rubbish? From: Don Firth mack/misophist PMed me about this discussion, but I choose to answer in open forum, least anyone misunderstand where I am coming from. Mack, I do not regard you with scorn. I just disagree with you. I'm afraid I do not agree that the human body is inherently ungainly. In addition to having seen a lot of ballet, both of my sisters were figure skaters and both became National Champions: Mary Firth and her partner Donald Laws won the 1948 Silver Dance Championship, and Patricia Firth won two Pacific Coast Senior Ladies' Championships and the Junior Ladies Nationals in 1954 (if I remember correctly), and this qualified her to compete in the World Championships in Vienna, where she placed seventh behind Tenley Albright and Carol Heiss. Both studied ballet to enhance their skating programs. I've watched a lot of figure skating and a lot of ballet. I also fenced competitively when I was younger. Fencing has changed a lot in recent years. Now, competitive fencers tend to look like a couple of berserk sewing machines going at each other, but before the institution of electrical scoring equipment (able to distinguish between touches 1/25th of a second apart), one had to mind one's form, do nothing that one would not do in a real duel (hit your opponent without being hit at all, not just before he hits you), and make sure your touches were solid and clean so the judges could see them clearly. This led to some really clean-looking form (like the pictures in the fencing manuals), and the swordplay was fast, aggressive—and graceful . Despite the fact that the human body is a product evolution, much of which could be considered a collection of (to use a computer programmer's term) "kludges," I see a well-trained dancer or athlete as marvelously efficient (within the context of the configuration) and elegantly pleasing to the eye. If you consider the human body inherently ugly and ungainly, well, I'd say that's a matter of esthetic opinion. I repeat, I do not regard you with scorn. But I do disagree with you on this point. And as they say, there's no accounting for taste. Don Firth |
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04 May 04 - 03:13 PM (#1177646) Subject: RE: BS: Is Ballet Dancing Rubbish? From: mack/misophist You're right about fencing. |
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04 May 04 - 10:42 PM (#1178076) Subject: RE: BS: Is Ballet Dancing Rubbish? From: Benjamin Mack, if you want others to respect your oppinions, you should try respecting their's first. Coming out and saying that I am wrong, that some of my favorte music is the worst symphonic music availble, you opened yourself up. No one feels sorry for you right now. There is nothing wrong with enjoying music like Stravinsky's The Rite of Spring or Ravel's Mother Goose Suite (symphonic version). This is some of the most progressive music in orchestration, one way or another, reguardless of how you may feel about it. |
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04 May 04 - 11:20 PM (#1178098) Subject: RE: BS: Is Ballet Dancing Rubbish? From: Sam L "Ugly" requires explanation if it wants to have any substance as an aesthetic opinion. Otherwise it's just an opinion of unknown type or cause. Could be a received idea, could be that people wear too much cologne and perfume at these things and give you a headache, could be you just don't get it and ugly means excruciatingly boring. But usually if it's an aesthetic opinion it wants to explain itself of it's own accord. |
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04 May 04 - 11:34 PM (#1178114) Subject: RE: BS: Is Ballet Dancing Rubbish? From: Sam L Oh, got your pm. Well, I guess that's an aesthetic opinion all right. And one I can sometimes share. The human body can certainly be ugly, and beautiful bodies have their own special ugliness, too. But to me that's what creates the drama. Otherwise one walks a tightrope laying on a floor, and has nowhere to fall. Dance is peculiarly eventful and time-bound for me, never the same twice. I'm not convinced by time-honored tradition or that people worked so hard (oh all right give them a C+ then)--it just seems beside the point. Art isn't the special olympics, nice sentiments don't mean it works. I've worked absurdly hard on some really wretched stuff, and so I think I know better. |
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04 May 04 - 11:34 PM (#1178115) Subject: RE: BS: Is Ballet Dancing Rubbish? From: Once Famous I get it completely. Ballet sucks. An extremely over-rated art form. Rubbish meter at 100%. Thank you for reading this. |
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05 May 04 - 03:39 AM (#1178210) Subject: RE: BS: Is Ballet Dancing Rubbish? From: fiddler So the upshot of this is some of us like it and some of us don't! And being good folking folkies we all respect each other persons viewpoint! OK I'm in!!! I am not so sure about some of the narrow bigoted views expressed though I can't subscribe to them. Biggotry can starts conflicts and conflicts on a large scale end in war, so I won't make any comment s about those views or those of the originator of the thread. alos the money then spent on those wars if they didn't exist can go to the arts. Hmmm....... Hugsnall (even to Jo9hn) A XX |
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05 May 04 - 11:39 AM (#1178551) Subject: RE: BS: Is Ballet Dancing Rubbish? From: Dave the Gnome 'course it is! Bunch of posh tarts prancing round as if they have brush staves stuck up their arses and a load of southern pufters in tights. I'd put it on par with cotswold morris and american country music. Load of overpriced shite. Why waste good beer money on it. As to them defending it and even suggesting that jOhns threads are anything but enlightened, witty and relevent. Shame on you! Give me a proper good comedian, like Bernard Manning, a stripper, 16 pints of bitter and a kebab any day... Cheers :D |
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05 May 04 - 12:12 PM (#1178590) Subject: RE: BS: Is Ballet Dancing Rubbish? From: Don Firth This thread is rubbish. I'm gone. Don Firth |
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05 May 04 - 02:22 PM (#1178723) Subject: RE: BS: Is Ballet Dancing Rubbish? From: Bee-dubya-ell Listen, if I were a teenager again I'd damned well take ballet lessons! Face it, male ballet dancers really only serve one function: to lift tiny, little, lithe, supple, hard-bodied young women up in the air, twirl them around and catch them. Where else does a guy get to put his hands all over young ladies that he barely knows without getting arrested? |
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06 May 04 - 08:11 AM (#1179326) Subject: RE: BS: Is Ballet Dancing Rubbish? From: Guessed Ballet Who? |
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06 May 04 - 01:58 PM (#1179523) Subject: RE: BS: Is Ballet Dancing Rubbish? From: GUEST,Penelope Rutledge Dave the Gnome, you are the kind of gutter trash for whom the most wretched slums and beer halls of Hull came into existence. My advice is, hie yourself down to the communal trough without delay and enjoy the company of your kindred swine. With any luck you may even meet jOhn. Just look for the one who is drooling and staring off vacantly over his pint while trying to think of something else that he can refer to as "rubbish". * PR |
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06 May 04 - 11:29 PM (#1179976) Subject: RE: BS: Is Ballet Dancing Rubbish? From: Sam L Art, history, and culture, are very much like rubbish, which we pick through at junk and antique shops for what we find useful or of interest. I'm surprised people take so much offense at it. Everyone picks and chooses, especially artists and musicians, who are always tossing one thing aside, or reviving interest in something forgotten. Sometimes they do both at once, like when Shaw started rubbishing Shakespeare, and in the process revived him. Or, at least that's how Shaw told it, later. |
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07 May 04 - 04:09 AM (#1180064) Subject: RE: BS: Is Ballet Dancing Rubbish? From: Dave the Gnome Hull? HULL??? Full of posh pubs and ballet dancers. And I'd love to be gutter trash. Bloody luxury. Should try Salford for a while Madame Rutledge, soon sort you out. Besides, I bet you're all fur coat and no drawers anyway... :D |