06 Jun 04 - 07:51 AM (#1201253) Subject: Guthrie's 'Jesus Christ' etc. (?) From: GUEST,Stephen Hey all, I wondered if some of you with your vast combined musical knowledge might be able to help me out... I'm in the process of doing a bit of research, and quite a fundamental part of it concerns the portrayal of Jesus (i.e. christology) in the southern US states around the time of the depression and westward migration. The work centres around the depiction of Preacher Casy in Steinbeck's Grapes of Wrath as a 'Christlike figure'... Anyhow, I'm looking for - or at least pointers towards - any relevant songs or sources from the period. I'm thinking of things along the lines of Guthrie's 'Jesus Christ' (i.e. the 'liberation christology' of Jesus as a working man, put to death at the hands of the cops, bankers, preachers etc. for siding with the poor and oppressed), or indeed 'I Dreamed I Saw Joe Hill Last Night' (which seems to place the eponym in a 'Christlike' role similar to that of Steinbeck's Casy). I don't think I've explained this too well at all, have I? :-) Thanks ev'rybody! Stephen |
06 Jun 04 - 12:20 PM (#1201351) Subject: Folkie Christology From: Joe Offer It's an interesting question, Stephen. And you're right, it IS difficult to figure out how to title the thread and how to phrase the question. In the first half of the 20th century, a kind of "folkie christology" developed, perhaps in answer to the Fundamentalist christology that developed at the same time. I suppose it was most evident in songs, but it was a view of Christ and God that was evident in many aspects of progressive movements. I think the christ of Woody Guthrie was also the Christ of the civil rights movement and of the United Farm Workers, and of the Christians who campaigned for peace in the 1960's. I hadn't thought to explore the sources of this christology, but it's certainly an interesting question. This view of Christ has had a strong effect on my own theology since I was a Catholic seminary student in the 1960's. -Joe Offer- |
06 Jun 04 - 01:51 PM (#1201396) Subject: RE: Guthrie's 'Jesus Christ' etc. (?) From: SueB Guthrie's Christ for President? Not sure if I understand the question, but I'm thinking of the line that goes "with a job and a pension for young and old, we will let hallelujah ring." |
06 Jun 04 - 01:52 PM (#1201397) Subject: RE: Guthrie's 'Jesus Christ' etc. (?) From: GUEST,Stephen Thanks Joe - very intersting... I "folkie christology" seems to have its closest parallels (and most striking statement) in Latin American Liberation Theology. In fact, it was thinking on that (I'm a Philosophy & Theology undergrad) that set me thinking about Steinbeck's Casy and Woody's 'JC'... |
06 Jun 04 - 03:28 PM (#1201429) Subject: RE: Guthrie's 'Jesus Christ' etc. (?) From: fretless Stephen, In the same vein but a bit later than the time period you specify and from the wrong side of the pond, Ewan McColl's ballad that begins "Jesus was a working man and a hero you shall hear; born in the town of Bethlehem at the turning of the year." I couldn't come up with it in the DT or on Google, but I was probably searching for the wrong title. |
06 Jun 04 - 05:18 PM (#1201467) Subject: RE: Guthrie's 'Jesus Christ' etc. (?) From: GUEST,Stephen Hey fretless - thanks for the heads up! I did a little google search, and the song's called 'The Ballad of the Carpenter'... lyric's here: http://www.cs.pdx.edu/~trent/ochs/lyrics/ballad-of-the-carpenter.html SB
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06 Jun 04 - 05:32 PM (#1201473) Subject: RE: Guthrie's 'Jesus Christ' etc. (?) From: fretless Thanks, Stephen. It is a wonderful singing ballad and it's great to finally have all the words. |
06 Jun 04 - 08:13 PM (#1201575) Subject: ADD: Comrade Jesus From: Joe_F In a similar vein, by Sarah Cleghorn: Comrade Jesus Thanks to Saint Matthew, who had been At mass meetings in Palestine, We know whose side was spoken for When Comrade Jesus had the floor. "Where sore they toil and hard they lie, Among the great unwashed, dwell I. The tramp, the convict, I am he; Cold-shoulder him, cold-shoulder me." By Dives' door, with thoughtful eye, He did tomorrow prophesy. "The kingdom's gate is low and small; The rich can scarce get through at all." "A dangerous man," said Caiaphas, "An ignorant demagogue, alas, Friend of low women, it is he Slanders the upright Pharisee." For was and order, it was plain, For holy church, he must be slain. The troops were there to awe the crowd And "violence" was not allowed. Their clumsy force with force to foil His strong clean hands he would not soil. He saw their childishness quite plain Between the lightnings of his pain. Between the twilights of his end He made his fellow-felon friend; With swollen tongue and blinding eyes Invited him to paradise. In _A New Anthology of Modern Poetry_ (Selden Rodman, Ed., 1938). No date is given for the poem. I don't know if it's been set to music. The genre was parodied by some miscellaneous nonStalinist leftists in _The Bosses Songbook_ (1958): Jesus Christ
(Tune: Jesse James) |
06 Jun 04 - 08:53 PM (#1201593) Subject: RE: Guthrie's 'Jesus Christ' etc. (?) From: Joe Offer Another couple of songs that fit here are Jackson Browne's The Rebel Jesus and "Crucifixion," by Phil Ochs. I can't find the Ochs lyrics, but I swear they've been posted here. -Joe Offer- |
06 Jun 04 - 09:01 PM (#1201596) Subject: RE: Guthrie's 'Jesus Christ' etc. (?) From: wysiwyg There's Tom Waits, "Chocolate Jesus." ALso a lot of songs about religious themes are about growing up Catholic, you know, people working out how they feel about it. ~Susan |
06 Jun 04 - 09:10 PM (#1201601) Subject: ADD: Crucifixion (Ochs) From: Joe Offer I thought for sure these lyrics had been posted, but I couldn't find them. I found them here: http://www.lyricsdepot.com/phil-ochs/crucifixion.html I can't guarantee the accuracy of the lyrics, but I'll cechk and correct them later. I first heard this on a Limeliters recording, with Glenn Yarbrough singing lead with his powerful tenor voice. -Joe Offer- Crucifixion (Phil Ochs) And the night comes again to the circle studded sky The stars settle slowly, in lonliness they lie 'Till the universe expodes as a falling star is raised Planets are paralyzed, mountains are amazed But they all glow brighter from the briliance of the blaze With the speed of insanity, then he dies. In the green fields a turnin', a baby is born His cries crease the wind and mingle with the morn An assault upon the order, the changing of the guard Chosen for a challenge that is hopelessly hard And the only single sound is the sighing of the stars But to the silence and distance they are sworn So dance dance dance Teach us to be true Come dance dance dance 'Cause we love you Images of innocence charge him go on But the decadence of destiny is looking for a pawn To a nightmare of knowledge he opens up the gate And a blinding revelation is laid upon his plate That beneath the greatest love is a hurricane of hate And God help the critic of the dawn. So he stands on the sea and shouts to the shore, But the louder that he screams the longer he's ignored For the wine of oblivion is drunk to the dregs And the merchants of the masses almost have to be begged 'Till the giant is aware, someone's pulling at his leg, And someone is tapping at the door. To dance dance dance Teach us to be true Come dance dance dance 'Cause we love you Then his message gathers meaning and it spreads accross the land The rewarding of his pain is the following of the man But ignorance is everywhere and people have their way Success is an enemy to the losers of the day In the shadows of the churches, who knows what they pray For blood is the language of the band. The Spanish bulls are beaten; the crowd is soon beguiled, The matador is beautiful, a symphony of style Excitement is estatic, passion places bets Gracefully he bows to ovations that he gets But the hands that are applauding are slippery with sweat And saliva is falling from their smiles So dance dance dance Teach us to be true Come dance dance dance 'Cause we love you Then this overflow of life is crushed into a liar The gentle soul is ripped apart and tossed into the fire. First a smile of rejection at the nearness of the night Truth becomes a tragedy limping from the light All the heavens are horrified, they stagger from the sight As the cross is trembling with desire. They say they can't believe it, it's a sacreligious shame Now, who would want to hurt such a hero of the game? But you know I predicted it; I knew he had to fall How did it happen? I hope his suffering was small. Tell me every detail, for I've got to know it all, And do you have a picture of the pain? So dance dance dance Teach us to be true Come dance dance dance 'Cause we love you Time takes her toll and the memory fades but his glory is broken, in the magic that he made. Reality is ruined; it's the freeing from the fear The drama is distorted, to what they want to hear Swimming in their sorrow, in the twisting of a tear As they wait for the new thrill parade. Yes, the eyes of the rebel have been branded by the blind To the safety of sterility, the threat has been refined The child was created to the slaughterhouse he's led So good to be alive when the eulogy is read The climax of emotion, the worship of the dead And the cycle of sacrifice unwinds. So dance dance dance Teach us to be true Come dance dance dance 'Cause we love you And the night comes again to the circle studded sky The stars settle slowly, in lonliness they lie 'Till the universe expodes as a falling star is raised Planets are paralyzed, mountains are amazed But they all glow brighter from the briliance of the blaze With the speed of insanity, then he died. |
07 Jun 04 - 01:07 AM (#1201686) Subject: RE: Guthrie's 'Jesus Christ' etc. (?) From: Q (Frank Staplin) Interesting. Has the working man become more conservative and moved toward the evangelical faiths now? My younger daughter a couple of years ago was working on a thesis based on the cowboy and rodeo church, an informal group. Very independent people, but conservative overall. |
07 Jun 04 - 03:09 AM (#1201716) Subject: RE: Guthrie's 'Jesus Christ' etc. (?) From: GUEST,Clint Keller Carl Sandburg came in early on this theme - 1915 - with his poem "To Billy Sunday." He couldn't get it printed then the way he wrote it. He says "I've read Jesus' words. I know what he said. You don't throw any scare into me. I've got your number. I know how much you know about Jesus.... "I won't take my religion from a man who never works except with his mouth..." http://www.scn.org/~davidb/sunday.html clint |
07 Jun 04 - 05:58 AM (#1201795) Subject: RE: Guthrie's 'Jesus Christ' etc. (?) From: GUEST,Stephen Thanks folks - this stuff's all just what I'm looking for...! |
07 Jun 04 - 07:47 AM (#1201854) Subject: RE: Guthrie's 'Jesus Christ' etc. (?) From: wanderhope Thanks for this interetesting and provacative thread. I graduated twice from a Baptist Seminary known, at least among Baptists, as what the 19th century would call "freethinking". It is no more so. But my take on the appropriation of Jesus as a figure to whom either the left or the right may lay claim as true descendents is usually flawed. More likely to me is the notion that each generation remakes the image of Jesus in the form and shape of that generation -- sort of a "this is the Lord that the Day hath made," thing -- sometimes it's to look for a hero, sometimes it's to look for a blessing of one's own particular brand of rationalization. Jim |