BS: Lets play blame the conservative

27 Jul 04 - 06:33 PM (#1235091)
Subject: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: beardedbruce

full text of article

The confrontation with Colin McNickle, editorial page editor of the Pittsburgh Tribune-Review, took place Sunday night after she addressed delegates from her home state of Pennsylvania.

********************************************************************
Heinz Kerry's remark came after she told the delegates that "we need to turn back some of the creeping un-Pennsylvanian and sometimes un-American traits that are coming into some of our politics."
*********************************************************************

As she was leaving, McNickle asked her what she had meant by her use of the word "un-American."

She argued with him, insisting she hadn't said "un-American."

He said he thought she had used the term "un-American activity."

"I did not say activity or un-American," she responded.

She then turned to someone nearby and said, "You know what the question is? Say that I called this an 'un-American activity.' I did not."

After stepping away and speaking briefly with Democratic organizers of the event, she returned and asked the reporter if he worked for the Tribune-Review. He said he did.

"Understandable. You said something I didn't say, now shove it," she told him.


So, is it a requirement to say something, then deny having said it? Isn't this what the Left has been complaining about with the Bush administration? Or are the rules different when you like someone?

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27 Jul 04 - 06:38 PM (#1235093)
Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: beardedbruce

I had thought that he was asking for clarification- since he had not heard all of it correctly. But since he was from the "wrong" paper, he gets attacked.

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27 Jul 04 - 06:47 PM (#1235100)
Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: Little Hawk

Sure, okay, what's the catch?

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27 Jul 04 - 06:57 PM (#1235112)
Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: beardedbruce

Are the rules different? It seems to me that the Left has not cut the Bush administration any slack- so they don't plan to hold their own people to the same standards they want to hold their opponants? Seems a mite hypocritical, to me...

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27 Jul 04 - 07:03 PM (#1235118)
Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: Rapparee

Both sides seem hypocritical to me, bb. It looks to me like you choose the one you think is the least hypocritical.

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27 Jul 04 - 07:14 PM (#1235126)
Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: Peter K (Fionn)

Just seen the encounter on UK TV. I caught it out of context, without knowing the background, but saw enough to form a view that the behaviour of Kerry's wife was arrogant and objectionable.

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27 Jul 04 - 07:22 PM (#1235132)
Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: beardedbruce

Person one says "x"

Person two asks "did you say "x"?

Person one says NO!... Shove it!


Seems like a reasonable person would call person one a liar.

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27 Jul 04 - 07:24 PM (#1235133)
Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: GUEST,mack/misophist

My impression was that the reporter was pushing it. Remember, Kerry doesn't have Altzheimer's, so his wife won't be the one who's really in command. Not like Ronnie.

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27 Jul 04 - 07:26 PM (#1235135)
Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: Bill D

and the reporters aren't?....many of the reporters make a LIVING asking distorting and leading questions of public figures, trying to get then to say anything that can be turned into a meta-story which has little to do with the real issue. Why is it wrong when Heinz slips and tells someone off, but ok when Dick Cheney does?
The real point is, the reporter WAS distorting what the woman had tried to say, no matter what the actual words were.

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27 Jul 04 - 07:27 PM (#1235136)
Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: beardedbruce

I guess rich liberals get a special rulebook that the conservatives are not allowed to use...

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27 Jul 04 - 07:30 PM (#1235137)
Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: beardedbruce

BillD:

"As she was leaving, McNickle asked her what she had meant by her use of the word "un-American."

She argued with him, insisting she hadn't said "un-American."

He said he thought she had used the term "un-American activity."

"I did not say activity or un-American," she responded.


So, a reporter is not supposed to ask the anointed royalty of the convention any questions? I thought only the Clintons had immunity for their words and actions...

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27 Jul 04 - 08:41 PM (#1235182)
Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: Little Hawk

Both sides are hypocrytical. The reason some people are inclined to support the Left is simply that they feel the overall policies of the Right are more damaging. It is certainly not because hypocrisy is found only on the Right. :-)

When Americans agree strenuously with a policy they often call it "un-American", because it's not what they figure THEY would do. That's typical thinking, isn't it?

For instance, opponents of the Patriot Act consider it un-American. People in support of the Patriot Act consider opposition to the Patriot Act to be un-American. Ho hum. (I laugh at the collective folly of partisan opinions.)

The key thing about the Patriot Act, in my opinion, is that it's un-democratic. That's more important than whether it's un-American, because nobody can really define what "American" means in that context with any final authority, and nobody outside the borders of the USA gives a damn whether or not anything is "un-American"! But they do give a damn whether or not it's un-democratic (and I ain't talkin' about the Democratic Party when I use that word).

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27 Jul 04 - 08:53 PM (#1235186)
Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: Bill Hahn//\\

The problem is that these things become like the children's game of "telephone"---you pass the word around and by the time it arrives at the end it is quite different than at the start.

The old cliche applies---you had to be there.   One does not really know from second hand reports how much annoyances were propounded by the press---or not propounded---to make the retort made.

I just came back from a confrontational budget meeting about a local organization which I chair. Knowing that we were going nowhere by re-telling the same things I called for a vote--my comment---"let us cut to the chase"---OK perhaps more benign than Ms Heinz-Kerry's remark. But perhaps she had more cause--I do not know. Frankly, I wanted to ask the other to cut the crap already and let us decide---but diplomacy required "cut to the chase".

Bill Hahn

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27 Jul 04 - 08:57 PM (#1235191)
Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: Blackcatter

Maybe she didn't remember saying un-American - I saw the video, she was clarly speaking off the cuff. That doesn't excuse the "Shove it." or the fact that she hasn't apologized afterwards when she saw the proof on video.

Now that being said, if the reporter represents a paper that is generally unflattering to the Kerrys, then I can understand why she said it.


The part I found funny was she was calling people un-American when she wasn't born here herself!

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27 Jul 04 - 09:07 PM (#1235200)
Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: Bill D

bruce..mixing rhetorical sarcasm and hyperbolé into your posts does not prove ANY point. "anointed royalty" "rich liberals"....no, there is no special rule book. And there is not one for "rich conservatives", either....though THEY often act like it.

you ignored MY point, which was that the reporter was TROLLING for controversy, and trying to make Heinz defend something she had not meant...and probably did not remember the exact words she had used. Should she have have been quicker on the uptake and asked the reporter, "did I really use those exact words? I could have chosen better--surely you don't think I meant THAT!"...yep, I guess he should have...but in this case, the reporters motives were a bit clearer than Teresa's.

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27 Jul 04 - 09:44 PM (#1235225)
Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: CarolC

Good thing Theresa's not the one who's running for president, right beardedbruce?

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27 Jul 04 - 10:52 PM (#1235255)
Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: Rapparee

Frankly, I don't see EITHER side working for the overall good of the community (as neighborhood, town, city, county, state, or nation). Ya pick the one you think will do the greatest good and the least harm. Sometimes, ya pick the one you think will do the least harm.

It's a helluva way to decide who will control nuclear bombs, ain't it?

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27 Jul 04 - 10:59 PM (#1235260)
Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: GUEST

What a troll of a thread. Shove it AND go F yourself.

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27 Jul 04 - 11:13 PM (#1235265)
Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: GUEST,TIA

Me above. Here's the deal. We were told we were hypocrites for posting to threads about Iraq without first posting to threads about Sudan. Maybe I'll pay attention to any pissing and moaning about Ms. Heinz-Kerry's "Shove it" only after *someone* posts to a thread denouncing Cheney's "Go F yourself".

It's all a partisan crock. More scoring of points at the expense of meaningful debate and progress.

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27 Jul 04 - 11:22 PM (#1235271)
Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: PoppaGator

Forget "un-American." If I were the reporter, I would have asked her what she meant by "un-Pennsylvanian"?

"Un-Pennsylvanian?" I mean, really! No wonder she seems to have blocked out any memory of what she had said!

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28 Jul 04 - 12:46 AM (#1235307)
Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: Ron Davies

Well, Bruce, it's nice to know that since you now realize the incredibly trivial nature of this particular world-shaking issue, you'll now be strongly supporting Kerry. Even you probably realize the difference between Mrs. Kerry blurting out something-- (how much of a stranglehold do you think she has on the political process?)----and Cheney's impromptu suggestion, also perhaps unfortunately blunt. Cheney, it's well known, has clout in the Bush regime.

Bush and Cheney before the 9-11 Commission --Calvin Trilling (as I remember it)
"I cannot do without my Nanny Dick"
"He gives me facts I always seem to lack"
"I cannot do without my Nanny Dick"
"He's the one who knows why we invaded Iraq"

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28 Jul 04 - 07:18 AM (#1235426)
Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: kendall

The Bushites are showing their desperation.

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28 Jul 04 - 07:43 AM (#1235433)
Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: Big Al Whittle

yeh lets....they got it coming

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28 Jul 04 - 08:47 AM (#1235458)
Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: Little Hawk

"Un-Pennsylvanian"?!? Well, that is really shocking! Having been to Pennsylvania and seen its glories, I can only shiver at the thought of it. They ought to erect a wall around the state so that this sort of thing can't happen any longer.

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28 Jul 04 - 11:41 AM (#1235565)
Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: Big Al Whittle

a country that elect somebody as weird as Arnold Schwarznegger to public office should be grateful for small mercies.

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28 Jul 04 - 11:47 AM (#1235569)
Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: Rapparee

Wee, Arnie was elected in California.

To an American, that explains all of it.

But why blame ANYONE? I, for one, am damned sick and tired of finding fault and casting blame. Why not (and this is a radical new way of thinking) use the time, effort, and money to solve the bloody problem instead???????

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28 Jul 04 - 11:53 AM (#1235573)
Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: Amos

Rapaire:

Wonderful concept -- let's run it up the flagpole and see if anyone salutes.....hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm


A

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28 Jul 04 - 01:07 PM (#1235631)
Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: Don Firth

This is a tempest in a chamber pot and some folks are trying to turn it into some kind of anti-Kerry scandal. Time for a little fact-check here. Speaking to the Pennsylvania delegation at the state house in Boston, Teresa Heinz Kerry came out against hate politics, and said:

"We need to turn back some of the creeping, un-Pennsylvanian and sometimes un-American traits that are coming into some of our politics."

"My prayers for you, for me, for the country, for the world, are that we keep this at a high level, with dignity, with respect and with a great idealism and courage that took our forefathers to build this great nation."

Afterward, Pittsburgh Tribune Review reporter Colin McNickle said she accused the Bush administration of "un-American activity." The words "un-American activity, in the aftermath of the HUAC and McCarthy era—and still—carry a much heavier emotional load than "un-American traits," which is what Teresa did say. She told McNickle, "That's not what I said." When he persisted, she said that he was trying to put words in her mouth and told him to "shove it."

Even if she had said "un-American activities, considering the way the Bush administration has been ignoring the Constitution and Bill of Rights, it would not be difficult to build a case that she was exactly right.

And after checking several sources and watching the video of the exchange, that, folks, is what really happened. Some people out there (guess who?) are grabbing at straws. But then, what else do they have?

Time to turn our attention to more serious issues.

Don Firth

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28 Jul 04 - 01:59 PM (#1235675)
Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: GUEST,Larry K

To me, the issue is not that she said "shove it"   Politicians have said far worse.    The issue was that she was caught in a lie denying what she clearly said.    That is not uncommon either.    All you have to do is watch Meet the Press.    Tim Russert is so well prepared.   He asks a question.   The politician denys it.   Russert goes to a video tape proving the politician to be a liar.    The politician pretends the video never existed.

In the words of the immortal Groucho Marx "who are you gonna believe, me or your own eyes?"

Of course the rules are different for republicans.    When Bush landed on the aircraft carrier it was a cheap publicity stunt.   What will the liberals say about Bush taking the water taxi accross Boston Harbor with his viet nam ship mates to reenact his swift boat viet nam experience?    Why do liberals praise Kerry as a war hero and condem Bush as a deserter when they supported Clinton against Dole?

This convention has gotten the lowest tv rating since the Thomas Jefferson convention.   Of course in those days, They didn't have TV.

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28 Jul 04 - 02:34 PM (#1235708)
Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: Don Firth

Larry, the words in question here are "un-American activities." Teresa said "un-American traits."

McNickle was clearly trying to make more of it than was there, and she called him on it.

Don Firth

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28 Jul 04 - 02:59 PM (#1235724)
Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: GUEST,Clint Keller

Larry, Clinton never claimed to be a war hero, or a War President.

That "Mission Accomplished" sign *was* a cheap stunt that backfired. (Like "Bring 'em on!") Selecting a camera angle that kept San Diego out of sight was a cheap stunt. The whole thing was intended to make you believe in a (non-existent) victory. What else was it for?

Bush talks a good war, all right. Although now he's trying to flipflop into the Peace President.

And what has the tv rating got to do with anything? Is TV a good judge of anything besides entertainment?

And why am I dumb enough to reply to posts like that?

clint

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28 Jul 04 - 03:14 PM (#1235728)
Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: GUEST,Blackcater

Larry,

I heard today that the ratings are actually up since 4 years ago. And I think that PBS is doing a fine job that the other networkds don't have the guts to do.

The press cconstantly report that the American public isn't interested in politics when it is they who are packaging the product for the public.

If the public was actually exposed to longer speachs instead of 10 second sound bites, if the public was exposed to intelligent people discussiong the ramifications, such as those on PBS instead of Katie Couric and the View "ladies" (and plenty of dumb, vacant, politically ignorant men, as well), people might be more interested.

Now, with Bill Moyers had an interesting report that came to the conclusion that the main reason politicians run some many damn ads is that it's the only way they can get any real time on TV. TV is using the publics airwaves for free and then charging politicians for the "right" to be heard. How screwed up is that? Of ocurse politicians want no part of changing that, because it's so much more easy for incumbants to raise money and get re-elected.

The whole system stinks.

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28 Jul 04 - 04:31 PM (#1235780)
Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: Nerd

Hi BB,

I think Don Firth is exactly right. I have seen no other article that claims that she denied "un-American," just "un-American activities," which is an emotionally loaded phrase. Since this is asserted by CNN with no source quoted, we can assume there was no source to quote; in other words they were reporting "scuttlebutt." I don't treat that the same as a sourced quote by an eyewitness.

In response to the Groucho criterion introduced by LarryK, then, we can believe our own eyes and still not believe she lied because the confrontation has only been reported as scuttlebutt. We know she said "un-American traits," but have no firm evidence that she denied it.

Finally, attempting to compare her to Cheney for "shove it" is ridiculous on three counts. First of all, "shove it" is not in itself a "dirty word"; it's the kind of thing you can say, for instance, on basic cable TV. "Go Fuck Yourself" would be censored out. Second, she is not an officeholder or even a candidate. So who cares if she says "shove it?" Finally, she said it to a tabloid reporter in the hall of a hotel; he said it to a US Senator on the floor of the US Senate.

I should say personally i don't really care about Cheney saying what he said either. But let's not compare apples and oranges.

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28 Jul 04 - 04:41 PM (#1235789)
Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: GUEST,Clint Keller

C'm on, bb; I can remember when Dukakis was accused of being a card-carrying ACLU member. And a Liberal, as though those things were bad in themselves

And more recently when those who disagreed with the administration were called pro-terrorist.

You're hollering when you ain't been hurt.

clint

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28 Jul 04 - 04:57 PM (#1235805)
Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: kendall

All you folks who think the word "Liberal" is an insult, look it up. I'm damn proud to be a liberal.

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28 Jul 04 - 06:00 PM (#1235859)
Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: Don Firth

The Bushies (and others) are trying to make the word "liberal" akin to something like "fascist" or "child molester". They keep screaming that Kerry is "more liberal than Ted Kennedy!"

God, I hope so!!

Don Firth

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28 Jul 04 - 07:32 PM (#1235918)
Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: Mark Clark

beardedbruce said: “Isn't this what the Left has been complaining about with the Bush administration? Or are the rules different when you like someone?”

One of the fundamental flaws in all these discussions is that there is no “left” in the US!

The last US leftist died 20 years ago. All that remains today are centrists (moderates) and a whole spectrum of right-wingers ranging from a few actual conservatives to the mindless whackos currently controling the US government. They and their minions keep using the term “left” to keep the ignorant stirred up and off guard. Anyone who believes these bastards is either in their pockets financially or really, really stupid.

      - Mark

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28 Jul 04 - 07:43 PM (#1235925)
Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: Peace

"Is TV a good judge of anything besides entertainment?"

Has it started doing that again?

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28 Jul 04 - 10:21 PM (#1236025)
Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: GUEST

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29 Jul 04 - 03:48 PM (#1236542)
Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: GUEST,Larry K

Ratings for the convention have been around a 3.2 share.   According to most reports about 20-30% down from 2000.   CSI Miami was 8.6.   My guess is that THe Simple Life II had better ratings than the convention.   Conversely, cable ratings are way up.   CNN and Fox are about 2.5 ratings-depending on the show and the night.   Fox is up 490% from 2000. CNN is up about 20% from 2000.   I think the american public is far smarter than the networks give them credit for.
I can't believe I am quoting Dan Rather but he said it best "We could get better ratings with test patterns"

Overall, I think there is a lack of interest in the convention as compared to previous conventions.   I predict very little bounce (5-7%) and the same thing will happen to the republican convention.   Little interest and little bounce.   I think most people already know who they are going to vote for and we will be spending billions of dollars on 28 people in Iowa (and a few other states) to determine who will be president.

Nerd- As Warner Wolf would say "lets go to the video tape". I saw and heard Theresa say on tv "I never said un american"   That is proof enough for me.   Now about those tax records she won't release.....

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29 Jul 04 - 04:20 PM (#1236557)
Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: CarolC

Best place to watch the convention is C-Span. No talking heads and they show all of the speakers.

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29 Jul 04 - 05:54 PM (#1236628)
Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: Kim C

Don Firth says the Bushies are trying to make the word "liberal" akin to "fascist." But Blackcatter said this on another thread: "Republicans (especially those wh support the current regime) are fascists and anti-freedom. "

So who's trying to point the fascist finger at whom?

Personally, I'm glad someone had the chutzpah to tell a reporter to shove it.

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29 Jul 04 - 07:50 PM (#1236722)
Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: Don Firth

Kim, maybe I didn't make myself clear. I didn't mean to imply that anyone is equating liberals with fascists (except Rush Limbaugh, but who with any intelligence pays any attention to him?). What I meant was that the Bushies are trying to turn it into a negative epithet, like "fascist," "child molester," "monster," or anything else that someone might be deem as contemptible, rather than a statement of a person's political position.

Don Firth

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29 Jul 04 - 08:04 PM (#1236725)
Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: Don Firth

Further. Making "liberal" a word of contempt is the same sort of thing as calling a kid who likes to read a "nerd" or a "dork." No kid wants to be thought of as a "dork," so he might just give up reading. If you can make "liberal" a term of contempt, then many people will be intimidated into not wanting to be one. Thus one drastically reduces the number of liberals in this country.

Except for those who think.

Don Firth

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30 Jul 04 - 02:03 AM (#1236884)
Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: Nerd

LarryK,

Funny: what you claim you heard is not what was reported above. So whom do I trust?

I didn't see the tape, so I'll suspend judgement. But if I DO see it I'll say: big deal. She's not running for office.

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30 Jul 04 - 02:07 AM (#1236885)
Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: Nerd

Hey, notice how this thread is REALLY about playing "Blame the democrat's wife"? Who is blaming a conservative for anything? It's bb's persecution complex acting up.

Remember, BB, before she was a Democrat's wife she was a Republican's wife, so why are you taking her actions to be representative of her husband?

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30 Jul 04 - 08:00 AM (#1237026)
Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: beardedbruce

Little Hawk :

I think your post of 27 Jul 04 - 08:41 PM was an accurate assesment.

My complaint is that the Republican, when called a liar repeatedly by a senator, used foul language to express his disgust with said senator, everyone screams- when a Democratic candidate's wife lies to a reporter asking for clarification, it is a tempest in a teapot. I understood, but did not approve of Cheney's words- I do not understand the need to deny womething that was said.

"********************************************************************
Heinz Kerry's remark came after she told the delegates that "we need to turn back some of the creeping un-Pennsylvanian and sometimes un-American traits that are coming into some of our politics."
*********************************************************************

As she was leaving, McNickle asked her what she had meant by her use of the word "un-American."

She argued with him, insisting she hadn't said "un-American."

He said he thought she had used the term "un-American activity."

"I did not say activity or un-American," she responded.

She then turned to someone nearby and said, "You know what the question is? Say that I called this an 'un-American activity.' I did not."

After stepping away and speaking briefly with Democratic organizers of the event, she returned and asked the reporter if he worked for the Tribune-Review. He said he did.

"Understandable. You said something I didn't say, now shove it," she told him. "

SHE was the one who denied saying "un-American" The reporter was dismissed out of hand for not representing the "proper" viewpoint. He ASKED if she had said "un-American activity", SHE denied saying "un-American", which she had, then tried to make it an accusation against the reporter.

NOTE AGAIN:

"As she was leaving, McNickle asked her what she had meant by her use of the word "un-American."

She argued with him, insisting she hadn't said "un-American." "

Yes, the reporter was trying to find out what she meant- Do those on the left want the reporters covering the Bush administration to be treated the same way? I don't think so.

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30 Jul 04 - 08:55 AM (#1237060)
Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: Nerd

Okay, but my point is she's not even a Candidate; and as a public figure she's been equally prominent as a Republican. You're grasping at straws to discredit the wrong person, bb.

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30 Jul 04 - 08:58 AM (#1237066)
Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: beardedbruce

I am trying to point out the unequal treatment by the media- if this had been a Republican candiudate's wife, there would still be headlines and screaming going on. But as the Dems candidate's wife, she gets a free pass. She can lie, and noone cares- but if Cheney gets angry, and expresses what he feels, THAT is headlines for a month...

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30 Jul 04 - 11:44 AM (#1237176)
Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: Nerd

You're just blustering. That's absurd.

Remember when Laura Bush said that George W. wrote her that poem "roses are read, violets are blue, my lump in the bed, how I've missed you," etc, etc? Later on, on Tim Russert she admitted that it was all a lie. He didn't write the poem. She was just trying to make him look cute.

How was this treated by the press: national scandal or no big deal?   

Hint: NO BIG DEAL!!!

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30 Jul 04 - 12:46 PM (#1237213)
Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: Kim C

Don, I understood your point, and my point is that others are doing the same with Republicans. No matter what the year, or what the issue, opposing parties nearly always seem to want to exhibit the same behavior they deride in each other. Look at Presidential elections throughout history and you'll see that this nonsense has been going on ever since the first election in the US.

What I would like to see is a candidate who says, "Here's why you should vote for ME," instead of "Here's why you shouldn't vote for my opponent."

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30 Jul 04 - 01:35 PM (#1237249)
Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: Bill D

bruce...you are chewing to DEATH a minor point, that she 'denied' using some word she actually did use....then you twist that to suggest 'rich liberals' get fairer press than...someone..
"She can lie, and noone cares"...she did not 'lie'...her words were distorted and she was correcting his distortion. There is NO evidence that she was consciously trying to disavow her recent remarks..only to correct HIS mistake.

to repeat:
"you ignored MY point, which was that the reporter was TROLLING for controversy, and trying to make Heinz defend something she had not meant...and probably did not remember the exact words she had used. Should she have have been quicker on the uptake and asked the reporter, "did I really use those exact words? I could have chosen better--surely you don't think I meant THAT!"...yep, I guess he should have...but in this case, the reporters motives were a bit clearer than Teresa's.

" if this had been a Republican candiudate's wife, there would still be headlines and screaming going on"...piffle! Rank speculation which violates several rules of argument.

c'mon, Bruce...if you want to be conservative, that's not illegal, but don't paint everything Democrats do or say with that broad brush!

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30 Jul 04 - 02:02 PM (#1237271)
Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: beardedbruce

You mean like the liberals do with everything the Bush administration does? :)

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30 Jul 04 - 02:36 PM (#1237297)
Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: Don Firth

Kim, I think that's what Kerry did in his speech last night ("Here's why you should vote for ME," instead of "Here's why you shouldn't vote for my opponent."). In fact, the general thrust of the Convention was not to attack Bush (although there was plenty of allusion to Republican policies, especialy by Al Sharpton), but outline and detail why people should vote for Kerry. Kerry even chanllenged Bush to keep the campaign positive and not descend into negativity and personal attacks.

This was one of the underlying themes of the Democratic National Convention, and many people (including me) thought it was a mistake not to attack Bush hammer and tongs. But it may not be a mistake at all. Bush now has his choice of trying to keep it positive (as Kerry challenged him to do) and talk about his accomplishments (which is going to be hard to do without people rolling their eyes), or staying negative and continuing the anti-Kerry campaign he's used so far. My guess is that Bush is going to continue the negative stuff, and it's probably going to lose him some votes from people who are sick and disgusted by that kind of campaigning. But what else has he got?

Don Firth

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30 Jul 04 - 02:39 PM (#1237301)
Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: Big Al Whittle

Come on Bruce surely it sicks in your craw a little bit. Theres Bush with power to levvy war, when its hard to believe.he would have had the nerve to fight in a war himself.

In England there is a widespread belief - even amongst moderates - that Blair would not want any of his kids in the firing line.

Anyway its your call,you have to judge the man. There seemed to be a lot of Republicans even before the election who weren't all that keen on Bush.

Don't you have any reservations......?

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30 Jul 04 - 03:09 PM (#1237327)
Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: beardedbruce

As I have stated, I am not thrilled with Bush- There are a number of others I would rather see as the Republican candidate. But I have not seen the Democrats offering a candidate that I would feel comfortable with.

If Bush was smart, he would avoid a negative campaigne. But then , he would never have brought up the gay marriage issue- there was NOTHING for him to gain by it. Those who support him onn it would vote for him regardless, and those of us towards the center find it to be an attack on individual freedoms.

The question I look at is who do I feel safer with? I do not trust the Democrats, from my past experience, to provide adaquate leadership, or "provide for the common defense." (you know, the purpose of government.) A number of the problems we have today can be traced to the actions of the Clinton administration in downsizing the armed forces, and surplusing/destroying material, such as amunition and small-arms.

I see a large part of the Democratic party as hostile to the best interests of this country, by believing that what they want the world to be will magically be. regardless of reality. When they can persuade me that I will be better off , overall, with a Democratic president, they can have my vote- as of now, they have not done so.

In fact, I find a number of the attacks by the Left to be as bad, or worse, than the ones of the Right on personnal freedoms.

"The difference betweeen the Right and the Left is that the Right spends a lot of their money making people do what they want them to: The Left spends a lot of other people's money making people do what they ( the Left) want them to."

Given the largely Left leaning population of Mudcat, I suppose that I should have expected to find more intellectual dishonesty and blatent personal attacks by liberals on conservatives (just by volume of posts), but I guess I had thought that maybe there would be some effort to actually act as liberals claim- in a kinder fashion. I have seen a lot more hate and venom from the Left here: Perhaps there is some kind of feedback between you that makes it "ok". My intent on this thread was to draw attention to the fact that it appears, in my opinion, that an outright lie from a liberal is acceptable, where a reaction to what some would consider unreasonable harassment by a conservative is reason for summary execution.

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30 Jul 04 - 06:57 PM (#1237461)
Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: beardedbruce

BillD:

My statement was : "it appears, in my opinion, that an outright lie from a liberal is acceptable"

""********************************************************************
Heinz Kerry's remark came after she told the delegates that "we need to turn back some of the creeping un-Pennsylvanian and sometimes un-American traits that are coming into some of our politics."
*********************************************************************

As she was leaving, McNickle asked her what she had meant by her use of the word "un-American."

She argued with him, insisting she hadn't said "un-American.""

.... now shove it," she told him. "

//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

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30 Jul 04 - 08:28 PM (#1237524)
Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: Big Al Whittle

and did he.....?

the down sizing is happening to some extent with all serious fighting forces because of improved technology.

let's hope the democrats aren't the crooked ratfinks that you imply. Clinton had a lot of fans over here in England mainly because he was so hard working and effective for the cause of peace in Northern Ireland.

People over here are worried by Bush in that we can't see where this foreign policy is leading us. There are rumours that it will lead to a war with Iran. We're two wars in, and we still haven't laid Osama by the heels.

If the fact that this woman has denied what she said, upsets you so much - fair enough I suppose - perhaps we should be outraged - although the significance is hard to fathom for an outsider.

But even if we all stamp our feet in unison in annoyance, its not going to quiet the fears and unease in many minds at the present about Bush. If that seems unkind, well people are entitled to their feelings and thoughts and to express them. Maybe you can allay those fears somehat by getting the politicians you support to be more accountable, or even comprehensible would do......

One metaphor in this thread worries me. If this is a storm in a chamber pot - what does that make us?

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30 Jul 04 - 08:53 PM (#1237534)
Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: Nerd

bb,

what about my point that Laura Bush can also lie at will and nobody cares? Your main point seems to have been that "if this had been a Republican candidate's wife, there would still be headlines and screaming going on."

I provided direct evidence to the contrary: where was the scandal about Roses are Red?

I await the six days of New York Times headlines, the calls for Bush's impeachment in the Washington Post, etc., etc.

Basically, Bruce, you're makin' stuff up to get mad at. Hope you're at least having fun with it.

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30 Jul 04 - 09:15 PM (#1237546)
Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: GUEST,Clint Keller

'I do not trust the Democrats, from my past experience, to provide adaquate leadership, or "provide for the common defense." '

My past experience includes Roosevelt and Truman, Kennedy and Johnson. I didn't always agree with the last two, but they didn't let us be overrun by the Vietnamese, or Russians. Of course we were lucky to have Reagan in charge when the dreadful threat from Grenada came about.

"A number of the problems we have today can be traced to the actions of the Clinton administration in downsizing the armed forces, and surplusing/destroying material, such as amunition and small-arms. "

The main problem is a twit who declared a useless war without a plan to follow through. Read the 911 report.

"Shove it" and "Fuck yourself "are neither one issues.

clint

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30 Jul 04 - 10:01 PM (#1237570)
Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: Bobert

Anyone like to define "conservative" here?

Bobert

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30 Jul 04 - 10:12 PM (#1237575)
Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: GUEST,peedeecee

Something that many of you may not know is that McNickle is not only pro-conservative (which is fine), but is also virulently anti-liberal to the point where he regularly writes poisonous columns, and distorts liberal statements and behaviours. Mrs. Heinz-Kerry had had run-ins with McNickle prior to the convention, and many people believe he was baiting her. I think telling him to "shove it" showed a certain amount of restraint on her part -- he was right in her face with his attitude.

A column of McNickle's from 2001:

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30 Jul 04 - 10:46 PM (#1237600)
Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: Bill D

well, thank you peedeecee...that certainly puts that 'confrontation' in better perspective! *grin*
..McNickle praises The Washington Times, Rush Limbaugh AND Fox News.....and we wonder that he would take any opportunity to pick at and distort something the wife of the Democratic candidate said? (you listening, bruce?...you STILL do not have the precise sequence of events and EXACT quotations right. (read Don's post way back up there ^ 28 July 1:07PM) He took certain words out of context, emphasized them differently, and asked if she had "stopped beating her wife yet"... You just hope the label of 'liar' can be stuck to Teresa, whether or not it is true OR relevant!) (it is neither)..come by some time, we will re-enact the scene... I get to be Teresa...*big grin*.

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30 Jul 04 - 10:52 PM (#1237605)
Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: Bobert

2nd Request...

Anyone out there have an operative definition of "conservative"???

Bobert

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30 Jul 04 - 11:06 PM (#1237613)
Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: GUEST,peedeecee

The standard operative definition of "conservative" is "one who resists change." My operational definition of "conservative" is "one who automatically and reflexively rejects any kind of new thinking, defining it as evil, immoral, unAmerican, unChristian or unnatural. Especially if it means someone else will have a good time.

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30 Jul 04 - 11:07 PM (#1237614)
Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: Bill D

Bobert..it will depend on which side you ask...anyone who calls themself conservative will have a positive, happy, reasonable definition about 'values' and how to govern 'lightly' and fiscal restraint...

definitions are one thing, actions are another.

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30 Jul 04 - 11:24 PM (#1237625)
Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: Bobert

Well, the Bush folks have reinvented "new thinking", pdc.... I mean, invading folks fir possibly one day wanting to develope weapons to attack the US? That's some serious "new thinking".

That's what I mean. And, peedeecee (pdc) I know you know that perfectly well but there seem to be a few folks who think that Bush is a "conservative"??? Hahahaha.... Just check out thre budget deficit...

Bobert

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31 Jul 04 - 01:00 PM (#1237891)
Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: CarolC

beardedbruce, the very fact that this minor occurance involving someone who is not a candidate for office was reported to death in pretty much all of the mainstream media proves that Theresa Kerry is most assuredly not getting a free pass.

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31 Jul 04 - 01:12 PM (#1237897)
Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: Little Hawk

If we were all held accountable for every word we've ever said...we'd be having a rough time. :-) This is one good reason NOT to go into politics.

Now, things we can blame conservatives for...let's see...

Bad weather, ugliness, hatred, crime, war, poverty, stupidity, warts, rodent infestation, bad TV shows, bad hair days, teenage pregnancies, fascist tendencies, dirty socks, socks that won't stay up, tasteless sports jackets, lascivious behaviour at office parties, drunken driving, intolerance, stigmatizing and generalizing, typos in posts, incontinence, farting in elevators, facial acne, big ears, commercials that repeat themselves, scoliosis, cystic fibrosis, halitosis, the influence of Saturn, general malevolence, jokes that aren't funny, prejudice, scorn, waste, perfidy, malice, mental sloth, hangnails, tooth decay...

All this and more!!!!

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31 Jul 04 - 01:27 PM (#1237907)
Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: beardedbruce

Hey! Bad hair days are not our fault!

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31 Jul 04 - 02:19 PM (#1237928)
Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: Nerd

Well, I've asked twice, so I presume BeardedBruce can simply find no evidence that "if this had been a Republican candidate's wife, there would still be headlines and screaming going on."   

And since Laura Bush lies through her teeth and gets a much freer pass than Theresa Heinz Kerry, I think we've shown him to be wrong about this.

We should change the subject to:

Farting in Elevators: A Conservative Conspiracy

That would be less nonsensical than the ACTUAL topic of this thread so far.

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31 Jul 04 - 03:45 PM (#1237966)
Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: Little Hawk

Heh!

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01 Aug 04 - 01:34 PM (#1238366)
Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: DougR

I for one have lost no sleep over what both Heinze/Kerry or Cheney said. Big deal.

I'm much more concerned about how Kerry is going to explain all those anti-war votes in the Senate over the past twenty years then declare himself to be a much better war president than Bush is.

DougR

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01 Aug 04 - 05:51 PM (#1238532)
Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: GUEST,Don Firth (having log-in problems)

That's a slam-dunk, Doug. You don't go to war unless it's actually necessary, not the idle whim of a group of neo-con imperialists.

Don Firth

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01 Aug 04 - 06:08 PM (#1238540)
Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: Nerd

Hey, here's an idea, DougR. When your side is losing an argument, just change the subject entirely!

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01 Aug 04 - 06:42 PM (#1238555)
Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: GUEST,TIA

"A number of the problems we have today can be traced to the actions of the Clinton administration in downsizing the armed forces, and surplusing/destroying material, such as amunition and small-arms."

Whose military "won" the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq Mr. Bruce?

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01 Aug 04 - 06:45 PM (#1238560)
Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: beardedbruce

and why are we buying new ammo, when we *used* to have sufficient stockpiles? During the Clinton years, trains were daily leaving the storage areas with ammunition and "scrap". Since there was never going to be a need to have another war, that was ok....

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01 Aug 04 - 07:10 PM (#1238568)
Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: Nerd

Oh, bb DIDN"T go away for a long weekend or anything. So he COULD have answered my previous posts but didn't. I guess that just goes to show he really has NO evidence that a Republican's wife would have been treated differently, and no answer to Laura Bush being a liar who gets away with it.

Missed you, bb!

BTW, good job DougR changed the subject for you. Now you can go on about ammunition and other things that excite you, rather than having to prove your ridiculous allegations.

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01 Aug 04 - 09:12 PM (#1238619)
Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: DougR

Interesting choice of words, Don, "slam-dunk" as in exactly what George Tenent told GWB when he asked for assurances that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction.

Nerd, ake, etc.: I'm not changing the subject. Blaming conservatives is a wide open field it seems to me.

DougR

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01 Aug 04 - 09:19 PM (#1238621)
Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: GUEST,TIA

It's not nearly as complicated a question as your obfuscation is trying to make it. Whose military "won" the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq?

Tell ya what, I'll make it a yes or no. Did the Bush Administration entirely rebuild the military in approximately 8 months?

Here's a corollary (a little trickier) - who did Secretary of Defense Cheney publically thank for creating the military that "won" the first Gulf War?

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02 Aug 04 - 03:08 AM (#1238729)
Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: Big Al Whittle

For an outsider it's very weird watching you Americans debate. A bit like wattching two guys at a party hitting each other over the head with balloons. (What kind of parties does HE go to - I hear you saying).

You use the terms liberal and conservative as terms of abuse. I England, both the Liberals and Conservatives are respectable political parties - so nobody has to ask what a conservative is. They've got a manifesto, and everybody knows what they stand for.

What's wrong with wanting to conserve what is good about your country? And similarly whats wrong with wanting the maximum amount of civil freedom in a liberal society for everybody - both are noble aims.

The trouble is that the abuse is getting in the way of the debate which grips everybody in the world. Is Bush right in what he's doing?

We've had two wars and now there are rumours of a third - all with regimes we may not approve of, but not definitely connected to the perpetrators of 9/11. A couple of nights ago I saw (on an American TV channel) someone laying into Kerry because he burned down Vietnamese villages 30 odd years ago. The debate you should be having is getting further away from you.

For what its worth, both the Liberal and Conservative parties in England (who are not in power) are against-ish the war. What used to be the socialist party (Labour) is in power and backs Bush to the hilt.

Perhaps the trouble is that as long as we bicker about personalities, they don't have to take what we think seriously and they don't have to burden us with facts about what the hell is going on. I think that is probably true the world over.

Ihope

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02 Aug 04 - 01:51 PM (#1239034)
Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: Nerd

Okay, DougR. Here's your original post, which I claimed was changing the subject:

I for one have lost no sleep over what both Heinze/Kerry or Cheney said. Big deal.

I'm much more concerned about how Kerry is going to explain all those anti-war votes in the Senate over the past twenty years then declare himself to be a much better war president than Bush is.

What does this have to do with blaming a conservative for anything?

It is clearly a change of topic from BeardedBruce's bullshit about Heinz-Kerry getting a freer pass than the hypothetical Republican's wife. By the way, in case I haven't mentioned this before, I have handily disproven this above, causing bb to maintain a long and sheepish silence on the issue.

Then you come in saying Kerry has flip-flopped, and claim that's ALSO somehow about blaming conservatives? Come on!

This thread is REALLY obviously about bashing liberals.

Hey, I also pointed THAT out above, 30 Jul 04 - 02:07 AM. I cry in the wilderness and none of our resident conservatives listens. SIGH!

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02 Aug 04 - 01:51 PM (#1239035)
Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: Bill D

problem is, 'liberal' & 'conservative' over here are not parties, but vague descriptions of general tendencies of the *Parties*...and when used by the opposition, are usually an attempt to paint the opposition with innuendos referring to the more extreme positions held by some party members. It is a silly system in many ways, but a hard one to change.

A person can have a mixture of liberal or conservative views on various issues, but has no party which represents that basic setup, and has to choose Republican or Democrat depending on which represents his major concerns. (or join a minor party which seldom gets much representation at the polls)...

quite a dilema

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02 Aug 04 - 07:41 PM (#1239261)
Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: DougR

Aw lighten up, Nerd, tell you what: I'll stand real still and you can bang me on the head with a stick. Okay?

DougR

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02 Aug 04 - 08:01 PM (#1239276)
Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: Nerd

Hold still, DougR...

WAP!

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03 Aug 04 - 11:58 AM (#1239497)
Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: DougR

Ouch! I didn't think you'd REALLY do it! Shucks shoot.

DougR

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04 Aug 04 - 12:00 AM (#1239979)
Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: Nerd

Don't worry, DougR, it was just one of those styrofoam clapping sticks---lotsa noise, but it doesn't hurt!

---