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26 Sep 04 - 04:11 PM (#1281616) Subject: Why do well known songs get sung slower? From: Rasener At my folk club last Friday, a person on the committee of the village hall who doesn't follow folk music at all, but was working behind the bar asked the following question. "I heard a lot of numbers that I knew, but why did they sing them so slowly" As a non musician and wanting to offer at least some sort of plausible explanation, said - "Well most folk singers like to sing unhappy songs, so by slowing it down they can make it more of a ballad" She seemed to accept that, but I am not happy with my reply, but feel that I am somewhere near the mark. The problem is that I don't know what songs she was referring to. Can anybody enlighten me? |
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26 Sep 04 - 04:14 PM (#1281620) Subject: RE: Why do well known songs get sung slower? From: the fence If you want to hear something sung the was it was originally then put a record on, I try to put some feeling into what I sing and that is why I slow certain songs down. It is sometimes a case of just singing it and playing it the way you feel it should be sung and played. |
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26 Sep 04 - 04:19 PM (#1281623) Subject: RE: Why do well known songs get sung slower? From: Peace "As a non musician and wanting to offer at least some sort of plausible explanation, said - "Well most folk singers like to sing unhappy songs, so by slowing it down they can make it more of a ballad" Don't know that I agree with this statement, Villan. Perhaps folkies just don't shy away from songs that are not uptempo. Most of the folkies I know sing a broad spectrum of material, and yes, some of it is 'unhappy'. But much of it is positive, enlivening and enlightening. IMO. |
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26 Sep 04 - 04:19 PM (#1281624) Subject: RE: Why do well known songs get sung slower? From: Rasener You are not sitting on the fence tonight M8 :-) That was really quick off the mark. I agree with you and I think that was what I was trying to say to her. |
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26 Sep 04 - 04:19 PM (#1281626) Subject: RE: Why do well known songs get sung slower? From: *Laura* Maybe singers are just miserable buggers who like to draw out people's agony? (in the best possible way, of course :-) ) xLx |
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26 Sep 04 - 04:20 PM (#1281627) Subject: RE: Why do well known songs get sung slower? From: the fence The reasons I gave are for myself but others may have different reasons. Believe it or not I do actually sing some quicker stuff as well hahahaha |
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26 Sep 04 - 04:21 PM (#1281629) Subject: RE: Why do well known songs get sung slower? From: Rasener I did say Brucie, that I wasn't happy with my answer. She referred to numbers that she knew that had been slowed down by the artist, not uptempo numbers. The Fence has given a reason why he slowes it down, that sort of goes with what I thought. |
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26 Sep 04 - 04:22 PM (#1281631) Subject: RE: Why do well known songs get sung slower? From: McGrath of Harlow You could just as well say "why do well known songs get sung so fast", because that happens too - in both cases, it all depends on the singers and the songs. But singing a song that people normally gallop through without thinking about it, and doing it at a pace where the words actually get listened to - that can be worth doing sometimes. For example, I remember once hearing the Rocky Raod to Dublin sung slowly, and it brought it out that it isn't just a jolly romp, there's a level of meaning in which it's pretty heavy stuff about emigration and what it involves, and what it does to people. Not the only level of meaning, but one that is lurking there, below the fun stuff. |
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26 Sep 04 - 04:23 PM (#1281633) Subject: RE: Why do well known songs get sung slower? From: Rasener Blimey this could be the quickest growing thread on Mudcat :-) Good point Laura and leans a little to what I was trying to say. |
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26 Sep 04 - 04:27 PM (#1281635) Subject: RE: Why do well known songs get sung slower? From: Rasener So MoH Its about trying to get audiences to listen to the lyrics of the song, and by slowing it down, people are able to digest the words and get a better understanding of the song. Have I got that correct? |
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26 Sep 04 - 04:30 PM (#1281638) Subject: RE: Why do well known songs get sung slower? From: *Laura* I do my best... |
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26 Sep 04 - 04:31 PM (#1281639) Subject: RE: Why do well known songs get sung slower? From: sharyn How do you know that "the artist" slowed the songs down? The question is "slower than what" or "slower than whom?" Do you mean slower than a particular recording? Many songs exist in multiple versions at many tempi. Varying tempo is part of interpretation. As a singer, I like to linger a bit. As a guitarist, I'm not up to uptempo work, so I don't do it. In my case slowness is sometimes a preference and sometimes a necessity. I don't like to be rushed in singing a song, but neither do I like to be dragged down by a chorus of loud singers dragging out the ends of my lines -- sometimes groups slow or rush a tempo, especially with a capella material |
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26 Sep 04 - 04:32 PM (#1281641) Subject: RE: Why do well known songs get sung slower? From: the fence You started something now Villan!!! |
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26 Sep 04 - 04:36 PM (#1281644) Subject: RE: Why do well known songs get sung slower? From: Rasener I know. It s a guden though. It will be very interesting to see what all the artists do and why. It also helps me. As they say, sometimes the silliest or most stupid question turns out to be the best :-) |
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26 Sep 04 - 04:38 PM (#1281646) Subject: RE: Why do well known songs get sung slower? From: Morticia actually I think you might be overlooking a central issue which is, IMO, singers love to sing and a well known song can allow them to explore harmonies and stuff......but you need to slow it down to truly get down with your harmonising self and enjoy the moment |
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26 Sep 04 - 04:43 PM (#1281649) Subject: RE: Why do well known songs get sung slower? From: the fence nice answer morticia I agree wholeheartedly |
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26 Sep 04 - 04:46 PM (#1281650) Subject: RE: Why do well known songs get sung slower? From: Peace Villan, I was not at all offended by the initial post. You are one of my favourite people here, so keep at it buddy. In fact, sometimes people do whole sets that reflect a mode of thinking that is 'down' and 'blue'. Maybe that's because 'folkies' tend to be a bit more introspective than most other musicians--(I hope I have NOT incurred the wrath of blues singers with this remark. Deep dung, deep dung. And then that remark will get people angry because the purpose of 'da blues' is to get OUT of the doldrums via the music. Certain days it jus' don' pay to get outta bed.) BM |
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26 Sep 04 - 04:48 PM (#1281654) Subject: RE: Why do well known songs get sung slower? From: Rasener Morticia "truly get down with your harmonising self " not completely sure what you mean there - is that a singers expression? |
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26 Sep 04 - 04:51 PM (#1281659) Subject: RE: Why do well known songs get sung slower? From: the fence As an accomplished singer yourself Villan(so we are told) you should automatically know what the expression means hahahahahaha |
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26 Sep 04 - 04:56 PM (#1281662) Subject: RE: Why do well known songs get sung slower? From: GUEST,Auldtimer The difference between a singer and a musician that sings is .... The musician wants their audence to hear the tune, or rather how masterly they are at playing, their expensive/top of the range/latest model/vintage instrument, and the faster they can play, shurely the more masterly they must be. A real test of a musicians quality is in how they mannage a slow air. A real singer sings for the song to be heard and enjoyed and the timeing, tempo and pace are important parts of that process of building a bond between singer and listener and a slow, but steady pace, brings out the best in the majority of songs. Try this yourself with one of your songs and let the song find the timeing that suits it. As for ballads being slow? It' time a lot of you started listening to REAL TRADITIONAL SONG and REAL SINGERS. |
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26 Sep 04 - 04:58 PM (#1281664) Subject: RE: Why do well known songs get sung slower? From: Rasener "sodemieter off" the fence hahahaha - bet you don't know what I am saying there eh. LOL Might tell you one day he he. Thats Ok Brucie :-) |
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26 Sep 04 - 04:59 PM (#1281666) Subject: RE: Why do well known songs get sung slower? From: the fence "Das ist nein gut" Villan |
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26 Sep 04 - 05:04 PM (#1281673) Subject: RE: Why do well known songs get sung slower? From: Rasener I'm a dunce at this Auldtimer, just somebody running a folk club, who cannot sing/play or dance. However your comment "but steady pace, brings out the best in the majority of songs" makes a lot of sense. That comment could also be applied to a lot of things in life :-) I think what this person heard was a song(s) that she knew and they were more uptempo than the folk singers version, and she just wanted to know why folk singers do that, rather than sticking with the uptempo concept. |
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26 Sep 04 - 05:06 PM (#1281676) Subject: RE: Why do well known songs get sung slower? From: Rasener the fence You are writing in German, but my comment was in Dutch. :-) The two languages are not the same, even if most people think they are. |
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26 Sep 04 - 05:07 PM (#1281678) Subject: RE: Why do well known songs get sung slower? From: the fence The beauty of singing something or playing something yourself is that you can do it how you want to and if others dont like it then tough. |
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26 Sep 04 - 05:09 PM (#1281680) Subject: RE: Why do well known songs get sung slower? From: the fence langwiches wereent never mi bestest subgect vylan |
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26 Sep 04 - 05:25 PM (#1281692) Subject: RE: Why do well known songs get sung slower? From: Rasener gotta gooo tebed loik. Gotta very imporetant final job interview tommora. must get me buty sleep in our kid. See yer in the mornin loik |
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26 Sep 04 - 05:32 PM (#1281700) Subject: RE: Why do well known songs get sung slower? From: Herga Kitty I agree with Morty, but some singers overdo it, and kill the song by slowing it down to a funereal pace (hence the parody, "Slowing down to lethargy"). Kitty |
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26 Sep 04 - 05:38 PM (#1281702) Subject: RE: Why do well known songs get sung slower? From: BusyBee Paul Achtung! Thread divert alert! |
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26 Sep 04 - 06:05 PM (#1281715) Subject: RE: Why do well known songs get sung slower? From: harvey andrews I find it's the audience singing that slows a chorus song down. I sing; "First you lose the rhy-ming" The audience sings; "First you lose the rhhhhyyymmiiiiiinngg" and stretch the last word right out. I'm half way through the next line before they finish! |
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26 Sep 04 - 06:56 PM (#1281764) Subject: RE: Why do well known songs get sung slower? From: Leadfingers When I listen to singers like Les Sullivan , I am always impressed by the way he keeps the tempo down . My own case , IF I am nervous I have a tendency to do things too fast , which is a Discipline Problem . A lot of songs DO work better at a Steady Pace , so people can appreciate the Lyric - After all , the SONG is the important thing in Folk , In fact the same goes for tunes - Played TOO fast a tune loses all its nuances for the sake of showing off . |
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26 Sep 04 - 07:36 PM (#1281798) Subject: RE: Why do well known songs get sung slower? From: Joybell I agree with all that's been said already but there's another point, I think. Lately, by which I mean in the last 10 years or so, it's been fashionable, with some popular singers, to present songs in a very slow, and I would say, pretentious manner. Here we had "Waltzing Matilda" performed, at a big public event, done so slowly that it took 15 minutes to sing. Granted it's a bit sad, but 15 minutes!! Doesn't answer the original question exactly. Joy |
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26 Sep 04 - 08:00 PM (#1281826) Subject: RE: Why do well known songs get sung slower? From: McGrath of Harlow What's the hurry? |
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26 Sep 04 - 08:45 PM (#1281850) Subject: RE: Why do well known songs get sung slower? From: Richard Atkins Singers should take cognicance of those thay are singing to as they sing. If the chorous gets dragged down on speed as people enjoy,then the singer can bring it up to pace on the next verse. The meaning of songs are more emphasised at a slower pace. Tiz up to the singer to judge. |
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26 Sep 04 - 09:35 PM (#1281876) Subject: RE: Why do well known songs get sung slower? From: GUEST,Dave "...the faster they can play, surely the more masterly they must be..." "The notes I handle no better than many pianists. But the pauses between the notes -- ah, that is where the art resides!" Pianist Artur Schnabel wasn't really a folk singer, but I think he adds to two viewpoints in this thread. The first, more musical, is that it's not just the tempo (and not just the notes, not just the lyrics, not just the instrument) -- it's all the pieces in relation to one another. Haven't you ever heard an old favorite sung by someone other than your favorite singer, and had an epiphany from an unexpected change? I've known the Gaelic song "Ho Ro Mo Nighean Donn Bhóidheach" since childhood, and in Cape Breton it's usually uptempo. The Rankins recorded a much slower version, coloring the song with poignancy. Schnabel's other point, and not the one I think he had in mind, is that some performers get very artsy. They've fallen in love with the song, or with the tune, or with their own voice, or with their own playing, and get carried away when perhaps they should be carried out. |
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27 Sep 04 - 12:30 AM (#1281957) Subject: RE: Why do well known songs get sung slower? From: GUEST,Gerry I like what harvey andrews said ("I find it's the audience singing that slows a chorus song down.") and also what Leadfingers said ("My own case , IF I am nervous I have a tendency to do things too fast"). I will launch into, say, Barrett's Privateers at what I think is about the speed Stan Rogers did it on Between the Breaks, and the audience will come in on the chorus and slow it wayyyy down, and I get a bit flustered. Maybe in my nervousness I was tearing through it and the audience was just returning it to where it was supposed to be. Maybe I was doing it at Stan Rogers' pace but the audience, which hasn't practiced it as much as I have, doesn't know it well enough to do it that fast. Maybe the audience just likes it slower than I like it. Was there much discussion here about Sinead O'Connor's folk CD of a couple years back? I loved the choice of material, found some of the musical accompaniment very tasteful and some very distracting, but most of all was struck by how slow some of the renditions were. "Peggy Gordon" shouldn't stretch to five-and-a-half minutes (in my opinion). |
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27 Sep 04 - 03:22 AM (#1282012) Subject: RE: Why do well known songs get sung slower? From: Liz the Squeak A lot of it is to do with those singing along not actually listening to the person leading. I recently had a major problem with someone not listening when I did a song to a well known tune. One person was just not listening to me. He sang the "original" words, very LOUDLY - whether he was trying to make a point or not I don't know. Maybe he just thought I hadn't learned the song properly as he knew it. Whatever, he didn't LISTEN to what I, as the soloist was singing. It might not have been so bad but it wasn't even a chorus joining in type song! It's one of the reasons I don't really like singing chorus songs. I sing a verse at one speed (say, 45rpm) and the chorus will come in at a different speed (say, 33rpm, for those among us who remember vinyl!). No matter how hard you try to speed them up, when you are one soprano against 15-20 bass and baritone, you're stuffed. Having said that, I do enjoy singing along with others and may well be guilty of slowing down, but I've never done it deliberately. It's as Morty says, you need time to get your harmonising self together. LTS |
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27 Sep 04 - 07:51 AM (#1282149) Subject: RE: Why do well known songs get sung slower? From: A Wandering Minstrel I;m with Harvey on this one. Shanties particularly have a rhythm which is mean to match the work being done. It comes as quite a surprise when you are soloing at stamp-and-go rate and you find the chorus is being sung at capstan or downton pump speed. I have a theory that its doen to let the chorus joiners have as much of the song as possible but I'm still going to sing "Slowing down to Lethargy" at a rollicking pace to show up the irony :D |
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27 Sep 04 - 08:17 AM (#1282171) Subject: RE: Why do well known songs get sung slower? From: manitas_at_work I agree with Harvey - it's the audience milking the harmonies and hanging on for a long as possible. It might sound great AT THAT INSTANT but it really mucks up the song as a whole. |
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27 Sep 04 - 02:52 PM (#1282463) Subject: RE: Why do well known songs get sung slower? From: PoppaGator I find that I often play too slow when first learning a piece -- talking about the guitar part here, which determines the tempo of a self-accompanied song -- but eventually start playing too fast after I have learned the mechanics of playing the desired notes/chords through many repetitions. It seems to be more difficult to slow down after developing some facility at playing a song than it was to gain speed while learning. It may be that, in making a deliberate effort to control tempo, a performer might wind up playing more slowly than originally intended. Maybe? Perhaps it was pure accident that one person commented on songs she noticed as having been played slower than normal. On another night, another casual listener might have commented on one or two familiar songs being performed faster than expected. Unless, that is, more of your regulars there at Market Rasen belong to the slow-down school than to the speeder-uppers. You know that better than I... ;^) |
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27 Sep 04 - 03:30 PM (#1282477) Subject: RE: Why do well known songs get sung slower? From: Rasener Its a newish club (7 months). A lot of listeners do not want to sing, so it is the artist not the audience. Its really nice and fascinating to get such interesting comments from everybody. |
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27 Sep 04 - 03:33 PM (#1282479) Subject: RE: Why do well known songs get sung slower? From: Strollin' Johnny Did she give any examples Villan? I wasn't aware of any songs that were performed 'slowed-down'. I'd be interested to hear which ones they were - might give us a clue to what (if anything) was going on there? (And if any were mine, I might be able to give an answer!). JB :0) |
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27 Sep 04 - 03:37 PM (#1282483) Subject: RE: Why do well known songs get sung slower? From: Strollin' Johnny I also think that many of us are of the persuasion that each person who performs a song should put their individual stamp on it. We're not so hidebound by 'the record' as, for instance, a pop performer might be so we slow down or speed up a song as we feel it - there are several in my set that I vary the speed on, for instance '45 Years'. |
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27 Sep 04 - 04:22 PM (#1282508) Subject: RE: Why do well known songs get sung slower? From: Herga Kitty LtS - it's not just a question of listening to whoever's leading the song and chorus, because that already introduces a delay - you need, if you can, to watch the singers, read their lips and synchronise! Kitty |
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27 Sep 04 - 08:20 PM (#1282679) Subject: RE: Why do well known songs get sung slower? From: Richard Atkins Kitty. I mentioned that on my last note on this thread. Singers should lip read the leader of the song and the leader can lead as is best for the company. There is nothing worse than a group of singers who after a few pints hear their own voices together and DRAG THE SONG. If a venue is crowded and you are at the other end of the room the lips are the conductor. Not those around you. Perhaps there should be a Get Songs Up To Speed Thread :>) |
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28 Sep 04 - 01:19 AM (#1282837) Subject: RE: Why do well known songs get sung slower? From: Rasener Strollin' I didn't get any examples, but I am beginning to think that it may have been from other evenings as well. She was probably generalising. When I next see her, I will see if I can pin the numbers down. |
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28 Sep 04 - 02:39 AM (#1282869) Subject: RE: Why do well known songs get sung slower? From: The Fooles Troupe As an ex-church organist I was given one tip when starting out. Ignore the congregation. Set a reasonable pace - not racing and not dragging - and keep to it. They will catch up - they even prefer a good pace - no-one really likes the ever slowing down dirge pace... This ever slowing down pace is caused by the organist listening for the congregation to respond to the played notes - because of distances in a large church the audio delay is noticeable. Perhaps similar things can be happening when folk music gets slowed down... |
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28 Sep 04 - 03:45 AM (#1282897) Subject: RE: Why do well known songs get sung slower? From: Liz the Squeak Foolestroupe - I think you have a point. As a chorister, I was told to sing along with the music, not the audience, whoops, sorry, congregation. As our organ had a 1.15 second delay between the keys being struck and the sound reaching us (not a big church, just a strange arrangement where the organ console was next to the choir and the pipes 80ft away at the other end of the church!), it got quite difficult at times. Even the audience, whoops sorry, congregation got ahead of us at times! The three were in perfect syncronicity round about the 12th pew back! Consequently, I come in fairly rapidly, quite often alone - (something that shows up quite well on a certain recording of 'Sunday Half Hour' from Dorchester, circa 1988) and sing to the accompaniment, rather than to rest of the singers. It helps being a loudmouth. And as for the comment from Manitas - well, that just goes to prove that he plays an instrument that does not require breath control! One could just as easily start a thread on 'why don't melodeon players give woodwind players time to breathe in sessions?' LTS |
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28 Sep 04 - 04:11 AM (#1282912) Subject: RE: Why do well known songs get sung slower? From: Steve Parkes I've had occasion more than once to exhort the audience to "try and keep up" or "wait for me!" -- they can get to far in front or behind. Not so long back I decided to to dig up The Jug o'Punch, taking it nice and slow as a "proper" song instead of a jolly romp with an old favourite. It worked reasonably well, although the speed was commented on afterwards; I don't think I got anyone to see it in a new light, though. And many years back, when I was still serving out my apprenticeship at the Songsmiths Folk Club, a singer appealed to the audience between verses not to drag the chorus out so much, as it "just sort of peters out." Came a cry from our guest performer, Martin Winsor: "Peters out? I'm all in favour of that!" Steve |
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28 Sep 04 - 04:48 AM (#1282932) Subject: RE: Why do well known songs get sung slower? From: PennyBlack as a Banjo Player - I was wondering why everyone sings and play so slow as well ;O) Pete PB |
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28 Sep 04 - 05:08 AM (#1282941) Subject: RE: Why do well known songs get sung slower? From: Steve Parkes PB, I discovered years ago (when I was learning to frail) that you can play slow: you just have to play twice as many beats. It still sounds fast, but everyone has to sing really slow. The overal effect is pretty awful, and you'll find that people will actually prefer you to play "properly". Steve |
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28 Sep 04 - 06:09 AM (#1282980) Subject: RE: Why do well known songs get sung slower? From: manitas_at_work 'why don't melodeon players give woodwind players time to breathe in sessions?' Because it messes up the beat! Actually, the woodwind player should take the time to breathe by shortening a note somewhere. With a really good player the breathing can be used to rhythmically emphasise the tune. |
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28 Sep 04 - 09:49 AM (#1283137) Subject: RE: Why do well known songs get sung slower? From: Steve Parkes Woodwind players should learn circular breathing, then there'd be no problem! |
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28 Sep 04 - 03:55 PM (#1283434) Subject: RE: Why do well known songs get sung slower? From: *Laura* we'd faint from lack of breath! |
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29 Sep 04 - 04:02 AM (#1283799) Subject: RE: Why do well known songs get sung slower? From: Steve Parkes Ah, but you woldn't, *Laura* - that's the whole point of circular breathing! |
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30 Sep 04 - 01:56 PM (#1285077) Subject: RE: Why do well known songs get sung slower? From: *Laura* good point. very good point. i am just a dappy normal-breather. :-) |
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30 Sep 04 - 03:27 PM (#1285166) Subject: RE: Why do well known songs get sung slower? From: LesB Whoops! thread creep again. Right at the beginning it was stated that 'a person on the committee of the village hall who doesn't follow folk music at all, but was working behind the bar ' asked the question. Perhaps the songs he was familiar with, had been performed by Pub singers/Irish pub bands et al, that he had heard in theme pubs / social clubs and the like. Who, in such situations, have a tendency to thrash through the old favorites for the non- folk audiences to clap along with. (usually completly devoid of timing, tempo & any sort of co-ordination). By the way I completly agree with the previous comments about the benifits of not rushing songs. Les |