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07 Nov 04 - 12:32 AM (#1319297) Subject: oldest Folk songs still sung? From: Tansy In discussing The Riddle Song, it occurred to me to Query the group on the matter of...What are the oldest FOlks songs you know of that are still sung? Doesn't have to be in English. I think Siuil A Run is pretty old and has spawned many ofsspring songs such as Johnny's Gone for a Soldier. What are your favorites? |
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07 Nov 04 - 12:39 AM (#1319301) Subject: RE: oldest Folk songs still sung? From: Cluin MACDONALDUS SENEX FUNDUM HABET. E-I-E-I-O. ET IN HOC FUNDO, NONNULLAS BOVES DOMESTICAS HABET. E-I-E-I-O. CUM MOO MOO HIC, CUM MOO MOO IBI. HIC UNA MOO, IBI UNA MOO, UBIQUE UNA MOO MOO. MACDONALDUS SENEX FUNDUM HABET. E-I-E-I-O. |
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07 Nov 04 - 12:54 AM (#1319306) Subject: RE: oldest Folk songs still sung? From: Malcolm Douglas Oh dear. Not again... |
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07 Nov 04 - 01:03 AM (#1319311) Subject: RE: oldest Folk songs still sung? From: Tansy Have I made an error in asking this? I must admit, Old Macdonald in Latin made me fall off my chair. My husband looked up and said "What ever is going on?" and I replied in song: "Cum Moo-moo Hic....Cum Moo-moo ibi, Hic Una Moo, Ibi Un Moo, Ubique Una Moo-moo....Macdonadus senex fundum habet..Eee-Eye-EE-Eye-oh!" and then he nearly fell off his chair. It wasgood for a laugh. I did search for "oldest songs" and came up empty before I asked. Forgive me If I started something up again that should have stayed dead. |
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07 Nov 04 - 01:30 AM (#1319318) Subject: RE: oldest Folk songs still sung? From: Kaleea In Music school, one of my fav things to do was to sing very simple songs in Latin or Italian. The early Beatles songs are terrific for this. And then there's my alltime fav from that famous Italian aria sung by that Motown girl group (was it the Shirrelles?), "Un bel di." |
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07 Nov 04 - 01:34 AM (#1319319) Subject: RE: oldest Folk songs still sung? From: Malcolm Douglas No; it's a perfectly fair question, but I'm feeling a little world-weary just now, and I can see all the same things that always get said in these discussions coming up yet again. That doesn't mean that the question shouldn't be asked. The trouble is that people tend not to answer the question that has been asked, but a different one of their own invention about which they think they know something. See these earlier discussions to get an idea of what I mean: Oldest Folk Oldest European Folk Song Very old music Earliest known English folk song There are others, and the subject comes up frequently in the course of other discussions; but it's well past my bed-time; so I only mention those that I found soonest. Also relevant, though a bit specialised, is A methodology for dating songs etc Oddly enough, Old MacDonald does seem to have far older roots than does Siul a Run, though of course not in the form seen here (see also Latin form of Old MacDonald's Farm etc). |
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07 Nov 04 - 01:44 AM (#1319323) Subject: RE: oldest Folk songs still sung? From: Tansy Well Malcom, world weary or not..you have managed by your post to me under The Riddle song...to chase me right off Mudcat. There are enough hostile places in this world to be told one is an idiot just because others feel a perverse need to beat you down - I didn't think Mudcat was one of them. However, I can understand better now some of the surprised reactions I had gotten form other Folkies when I told them I had joined up at Mudcat and was thoroughly enjoying myself. I'm not enjoying myself now. Happy? Has your purpose for living been reaffirmed? Does it make you feel superior somehow to bash someone for asking a question? Excuse me for not searching the EXACT phrase that would bring up an archived thread. I've had enough. It's a shame because I was meeting some nice people. The bullies are too willing to stomp all over a newbie. Its as if you feel this is some kind of Street Gang and that anyone wishing entrance deserves a "Jump -in." If you don't know what that is Malcom....consult your academic sources. I will send my Secret Santa gifts, but I'm outta here. |
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07 Nov 04 - 03:09 AM (#1319347) Subject: RE: oldest Folk songs still sung? From: gecko Tansy, please don't let one sour reaction put you off Mudcat for life. I'm also a new member and share your dislike for the 'superior' types that inhabit this forum and get their jollies from putting others down. Thank goodness they comprise a miniscule, though vocal, part of the postings and, lets face it, are found in all facets of life. In the famous words of someone or other - Don't Let The Bastards Grind You down! Yours in Unity gecko |
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07 Nov 04 - 03:11 AM (#1319349) Subject: RE: oldest Folk songs still sung? From: chris nightbird childs Yes, I've seen them. They can be condescending c**ts sometimes, can't they? |
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07 Nov 04 - 05:55 AM (#1319417) Subject: RE: oldest Folk songs still sung? From: GUEST,Russ Malcolm, I attend two kinds of jams. Those were standard practice is to do each tune or song a maximum of once per jam. Those where multiple replays per jam are tolerated. There are good reasons for both approaches and I have no preferences concerning jams. For Mudcat I think the latter is model is preferable. The format of Mudcat makes it easy for me to ignore threads that don't interest me. |
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07 Nov 04 - 06:39 AM (#1319429) Subject: RE: oldest Folk songs still sung? From: GUEST,PB in transit The world is full of people - some you love, some you like some you tolerate, some you ignore, some you avoid. But you don't leave the world every time you meet someone who doesn't agree with you or makes an "off hand" remark, otherwise the human race would be down to one by now. This is a place for people to openly state their opinion, a discussion board, something they, as well as you, are entitled to. Just because they differ doesn't make them wrong or bad people. Tansy, stop over reacting. M.D. - if you're sick of reading subjects that have been on previous threads, don't do it (it's easy). All this stamping of feet and slamming of doors is giving me a headache. Not that anyone here cares :-( PB |
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07 Nov 04 - 06:59 AM (#1319440) Subject: RE: oldest Folk songs still sung? From: Oaklet Tansy, don't go. Just get your dander up and start a new thread entitled "PEL system in the UK". Start it with a post saying "What is all this about, then" and invite helpful comments. The begrudgers will be too busy linking the following posts to every one of the million or so threads on the subject to give you a proper well deserved seeing-to. But if you are leaving - remember to check the forum first to see if any one else has checked out before - this will save duplication and unrest. You should stick around though and I sincerely hope that you do. |
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07 Nov 04 - 07:30 AM (#1319457) Subject: RE: oldest Folk songs still sung? From: GUEST,PB nearly there Don't worry Oaklet, Tansy was seen HERE still posting 3 hours after the above last farewell. PB |
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07 Nov 04 - 07:43 AM (#1319464) Subject: RE: oldest Folk songs still sung? From: GUEST Personally speaking I understand the feelings of all concerned. When some bugger gets up and does Old MacDonald at a folk club - your heart does sink somewhat. Its like when your teacher used to tell a joke, backed up with a cane and a detention book, in those days, to ensure a sympathetic hearing. On the other hand a week or so back, I found myself on a thread with a bloke who claimed the IRA had blown his legs off , and another one saying good job too, and Christy moore would have been pleased about you getting your legs blown off. Total crap of course, but you end up asking yourself do I want these people in my house. Cos remember, a few people maybe log on at work, but thats what what we're doing in the main part - going into each others houses. I expressed these thoughts and found that I had become de-registered. I'm not sure I'm going to re-register again, which is a pity cos I loved the banter of mudcat. However we all need to be careful of each others feelings - and just as I would never say to the man in the folk club, face to face - I think Old MacDonalds Farm in Latin is as boring as Saturday night television (can't think of anything worse off hand) Similarly just cos he's not there to poke you in the face, I don't think you should send an insult into his own home. all the best to all mudcatters al (ex weelittledrummer) |
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07 Nov 04 - 07:50 AM (#1319466) Subject: RE: oldest Folk songs still sung? From: GUEST,nj This is an interesting question. If in English, It is not hard to find old songs on the net, and you will find the answer in a museum published on the net on a document from London UK where the words & tune are still known & sung. If you count religious music you might find older in Europe non English. Good luck. I would like to talk about this if interested. |
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07 Nov 04 - 07:54 AM (#1319468) Subject: RE: oldest Folk songs still sung? From: John in Brisbane I've been coming and going around here for a number of years and I rarely get involved in personality debates ... until today. I don't know the man, don't communicate with him and I don't know whether he's blond or brindle. What I do know is that Malcolm Douglas has been one of only two folk music luminaries who have made outstanding and long-standing contributions to this Forum, but more particularly the Digital Tradition song database. The other eminent contributor is now unfortunately deceased. I make a simple plea that you respect his tireless, scholarly and usually cheerful contributions. Regards, John |
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07 Nov 04 - 08:04 AM (#1319472) Subject: RE: oldest Folk songs still sung? From: Billy Weeks May I second John in Brisbane's plea? There are enough bad tempered, usually ill-informed gits on Mudcat for me to be getting on with. Don't over-react Tansy. Thank the guy and wish him a less stressful day. |
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07 Nov 04 - 08:07 AM (#1319474) Subject: RE: oldest Folk songs still sung? From: Billy Weeks And to remove all possible doubt, as the lawyers say, Malcolm Douglas is definitely NOT among the bad tempered ill-informed gits. |
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07 Nov 04 - 08:31 AM (#1319487) Subject: RE: oldest Folk songs still sung? From: Sandy Mc Lean Malcolm may seem a bit testy , but in truth he is usually a very knowledgeable resource to this forum. I guess we all have our bad days. Off on the tangent, Old MacDonald in Latin: With a name like MacDonald he probably spoke Gaelic, not Latin so would this not seem better? Seann Mhac Dhomhnaill Seann Mhac Dhomhnaill. gu robh` ait aig , I ai I ai o Air an aite bha aige cearcan, I ai I ai o Le glug-glug siud agus glug-glug seo Seo glug, siud glug, a h-uile h_`aite glug-glug Seann Mhac Dhoinhnaill. gu robh ait aig , I ai I ai o. Seann Mhac Dhomhnail1 gu robh `ait aig I ai I ai o, Air an aite bha aige tunnagan, I ai I ai o Le glag-glag siud agus glag-glagL seo, Seo glag siud glag h-uile h-`aite glag-glag ,Seann Mhac Dhomhnaill gu robh ait aig I ai I ai o. Seann Mhac Dhomhnaill gu robh ait aig , I ai l ai o, Air an aite bha aige geoidh I ai I ai o, Le hong-hong siud agus hong-hong seo Seo hong siud hong, a h-uile h-aite hong-hong Seann Mhae Dhomhnaill gu robh ait aig I ai I ai o. Seann Mhac Dhomhnaill gu robh ait aig , I ai I ai o Air an aite bha aige crodh, I ai I ai o, Le mu-mu siud agus mu-mu seo, Seo mu siud mu a h-uile h-aite mu-mu, SeannMhac Dhomhnaill gu robh ait' aig , I ai I ai o (*from the late Hugh F. MacKenzie, Christmas Island. Recorded in the Cape Bretoniana archives.) |
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07 Nov 04 - 08:52 AM (#1319496) Subject: RE: oldest Folk songs still sung? From: Sandra in Sydney weelittledrummer - have you lost your cookie? It happens all the time, check out FAQ info for how to get back into membership status sandra |
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07 Nov 04 - 09:26 AM (#1319513) Subject: RE: oldest Folk songs still sung? From: Mooh Old MacDonald in Latin amuses me because my folks would speak Latin whenever they wanted the children not to understand them...only worked until certain older siblings got a command of the language. Mudcat to me is much like a walk around the town square. There are kindly folks who'll hold a door, step aside, share a smile. There are some not-so-kindly folks who just don't see anyone or anything but themselves and their interests. There are folks who are naturally cantankerous, or who might just be having a bad day. It's all fun to watch, and sometimes to join in, though I generally step around the dog shit, metaphorical and otherwise. So what if the question gets asked too often, repetition is a great educator, in spite of the "did you search first" option available here. Besides, what if there's new information on the subject? All music is derivative, and much folk music owes its roots to a much earlier time, which many of us find interesting to the point of obsession. Whether the melodies have remained unaltered is doubted, but neither has much else. Hang around Tansy, Summer Is A Comin'. Peace, Mooh. |
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07 Nov 04 - 11:10 AM (#1319580) Subject: RE: oldest Folk songs still sung? From: Nerd Well, we can begin with the above mentioned riddle song. It exists ina 15th century manuscript, and was still sung in oral tradition in the 20th century. Any others? Summer is a cumin in is of course an old song, but didn't survive in oral tradition to be collected, so 1) we can't be sure it was a "folk" song and 2) we can't be sure if it was ever sung between being written down and being set to music by some clever modern person. So I'm not sure it fits what Tansy was asking about. |
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07 Nov 04 - 12:42 PM (#1319629) Subject: RE: oldest Folk songs still sung? From: Rasener How about Fiddlers Green. I can guarantee that it will be sung by the person who wrote it on Friday the 3rd of December 2004 at Market Rasen Folk Club. Go to the following website to see who it is, if you don't already know. :-) http://www.marketrasenfolkclub.co.uk |
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07 Nov 04 - 06:38 PM (#1319944) Subject: RE: oldest Folk songs still sung? From: Snuffy One Breezy is more than enough |
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07 Nov 04 - 07:21 PM (#1319976) Subject: RE: oldest Folk songs still sung? From: Joybell Tansy, Glad you haven't gone away. It's the coffee-shop for me - Mucat. Like the stroll around the square for Mooh. Take a look at the thread, "What did your Granny do" Mr World-weary has contributed a wonderful little story about his Granny. Sometimes he sips tea from the chocolate teapot just like many of us*. *(injoke - Mr World-Weary once told someone offering me advice that it was about as useful as the said device. He was quite right too.) Joy |
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07 Nov 04 - 10:09 PM (#1320090) Subject: RE: oldest Folk songs still sung? From: Mooh Well, I did mean my Summer I A Comin' sign off metaphorically, without any specific claims. But since you brought it up Nerd, not folk? I don't think the definition needs to be that tight, or did I miss something? Summer's still a comin', eventually. Peace, Mooh. |
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08 Nov 04 - 12:17 AM (#1320142) Subject: RE: oldest Folk songs still sung? From: Stilly River Sage Summer is a cumin in is the one I would have named off the top of my head, but Nerd says it isn't so. Hmmm. Tansy's display of temper is a defensive position, and less justifiable for a newcomer who created a faux pas with a precipitously asked question, than Malcolm's world-weary response. Lurking for a while and learning to use the DT are useful for new folks at Mudcat. SRS |
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08 Nov 04 - 01:40 AM (#1320165) Subject: RE: oldest Folk songs still sung? From: Rasener Sorry about that snuffy. It was of course Fiddlers Green by John Conolly |
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08 Nov 04 - 02:08 AM (#1320169) Subject: RE: oldest Folk songs still sung? From: mg Not an opinion shared by everyone. I think it is perfectly reasonable and expected that people will come in and ask questions, sometimes often asked before. Why not? What is so compulsive about people that they can't just ignore the thread if they are not personally interested in answering it for the third or twelfth time. Like I just said on another thread, I would answer any question over and over until I got tired of doing so and then I would let others answer it, make clickies to previous threads etc. What could be more stale than a referral to a previous conversation? No one is obliged, except out of their own compulsiveness, to either answer a question or be rude to a newcomer with interest in the various topics. So any answers I know I will keep on saying. To this one, I have heard Sir Patrick Spens is a pretty old one, in the English language, which is what most of us here share. Also I once loved a lass is fairly old I have heard...but we are just talking in the hundreds of years. I am sure the Persians, Finns, etc. can come up with much older ones. mg |
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08 Nov 04 - 02:50 AM (#1320179) Subject: RE: oldest Folk songs still sung? From: Malcolm Douglas Looking back at my comments in the other thread referred to (Riddle Song - bird without a gall?), they don't seem so very unreasonable: as I hoped I had made plain, they were intended not to give offense but to elicit pertinent information, which I would have been interested in, having a minor background in medieval studies (though only at undergraduate level, and I'm afraid that I avoided linguistics at the time, which is a pity). My flippant remark early in this discussion was regrettable, however, and I apologise for causing upset (and inadvertently diverting the thread from its intended purpose). Tansy must do as she thinks fit, but it would be a shame if she were to allow a minor disagreement of this sort to discourage her from participating here, as I'm sure she has a great deal to offer the Forum as well as (like all of us) to learn from it. I am sometimes rather intense about all this; I have a passion for the music and all that is associated with it, of the kind that others reserve for sports or politics. That intensity can certainly be mistaken by some people in some circumstances for rudeness, and perhaps I should cultivate a more relaxed and conversational tone. The trouble is that there is so much to do and to learn, and so little time to fit it all into. Although it was kind of John to bracket me with the late Bruce Olson, the truth is that I will never know half as much as he did (and, of course, there are not a few other people who have been regulars here over the years who also far surpass what I can contribute). I have tried to fill, in a small way, the gap that Bruce left here; but it's not the same: though of course he and I did have in common the fact that we can sometimes appear difficult as internet correspondents, while being really quite easy to get on with in "real life". Enough of all that. It is time to return to the matter in hand; or at least to one aspect of it. An antecedent of Old MacDonald appeared in D'Urfey's Pills to Purge Melancholy (1719, II, 214) as A Song in the Opera call'd, The Kingdom of the Birds (from Thomas D'Urfey and William Worthen Appleton, Wonders in the sun; or, The kingdom of the birds: London, 1706). It's quoted in the thread Up was I on my father's farm. 1706 isn't particularly old, of course (though the bulk of the songs in English that we think of as "folk songs" are probably more recent); but older than a lot of people would think for a song like that. It isn't impossible that D'Urfey and Appleton based it on an existing song, but if they did I don't think we have a record of it. |
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08 Nov 04 - 03:28 AM (#1320188) Subject: RE: oldest Folk songs still sung? From: George Papavgeris Someone once told me that the tune to Lyke Wake Dirge (lyrics 17th century) is much older, around 8th or 9th century... |
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08 Nov 04 - 04:42 AM (#1320218) Subject: RE: oldest Folk songs still sung? From: Malcolm Douglas The "original" Lyke Wake Dirge tune was lost, so far as can be told, though it has been sort of described. Blowzabella published a rather odd one, but didn't say where they got it, so that has to be discounted for the time being. The tune generally used today was written by Harold Boulton only a little more than a hundred years ago. See previous threads, which have links to all the words and music (except for the mysterious Blowzabella tune) so far as I recall. |
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08 Nov 04 - 04:58 AM (#1320228) Subject: RE: oldest Folk songs still sung? From: GUEST,greg stephens All folk songs are several million years old. Trouble is, they've all acquired new words and new tunes in that time. |
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08 Nov 04 - 07:24 AM (#1320289) Subject: RE: oldest Folk songs still sung? From: GUEST Malcolm may be tireless in his efforts and has certainly contributed a great deal to mudcat, however that does not automatically confer the right to be rude and pompus, which he sometimes is. |
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08 Nov 04 - 07:28 AM (#1320292) Subject: RE: oldest Folk songs still sung? From: George Papavgeris You choose your balance, GUEST. Nobody is perfect, so by definition we like some people despite their shortcomings, whatever they are. I choose to like Malcolm. And as he has already apologised, your insistence in picking on his (rare) slip-up leads me not to invite you to my next candlelit supper. But hey, we have free will... |
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08 Nov 04 - 07:44 AM (#1320306) Subject: RE: oldest Folk songs still sung? From: greg stephens "slightly testy" is how I would characterise Malcom's remark on this thread. But let us remember that he comes from Yorkshire, and we should be forgiving. In the best of all possible worlds, Malcolm Douglas would never be testy, and other Mudcatters would all be as knowledgable,rigorous, informative and helpful as he is. Neither of these things is likely to happen, so in this slightly flawed world, however, we must all just muck along as best we can. |
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08 Nov 04 - 07:49 AM (#1320311) Subject: RE: oldest Folk songs still sung? From: GUEST Hm ....Sir Patrick spens and I once loved a lass do have lyrical beauty. The facetiousness of old macdonald in latin is a sort of end of term treat. I supoose in the wrong frame of mind thay could both irritate you beyond endurance |
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08 Nov 04 - 04:07 PM (#1320662) Subject: RE: oldest Folk songs still sung? From: Nerd Stilly River Sage, I wasn't necessarily saying it isn't so. Just that we don't know it's so. For a folklorist, usually demonstrating that a song has been in the oral tradition for some length of time is a prerequisite to calling it a folk song. In the case of old texts, that is waived to some extent, but usually a folklorist would then wish to see multiple versions show up in manuscripts, to verify that it was at least traveling around being folk-processed, as it were. So what do we do with a song as old as Sumer is Icumen In that doesn't exist in several versions and cannot be shown to have been in oral tradition? It's a toss up. Frankly, we're lucky it survived in even ONE manuscript, folksong or not! So I think most folklorists would rule "no decision." It may have been a folksong, or maybe not. Maybe more people know it now than then because it has since been printed and disseminated. We have no evidence that anyone other than the monks at Reading Abbey ever heard it until modern times, and indeed no real evidence that even THEY ever heard it, although one of them wrote it down at some point! This doesn't make it textually any less interesting. By the way, Sumer probably is not "folk" in origin either. It seems to have been written by one or more monks, and it is musically more complicated than most "folk" songs, being arranged in its only manuscript appearance for four tenor and two bass voices. It is the earliest example of canon, of six part music, and of ground bass, suggesting that these were PROBABLY not well-established folk traditions at the time, though such an early date makes any such statement tenuous. Anyway, for most folkorists, "folk" origin is a red herring, since many folksongs originated among the upper classes, and many more originated in mass culture. SRS and I have locked horns over this on previous threads, so let me clarify that saying this does not denigrate the creativity of the rural working classes! It's just that they adapt as many songs from elite and mass culture origins as they create themselves--and why shouldn't they? |
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08 Nov 04 - 05:28 PM (#1320749) Subject: RE: oldest Folk songs still sung? From: GUEST boys of bedlam |
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08 Nov 04 - 05:32 PM (#1320751) Subject: RE: oldest Folk songs still sung? From: Nerd BTW, I was wrong before (07 Nov 04 - 11:10 AM) about Sumer being set to music in modern times; the music in in the MS. But we still don't know if it was sung! |
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08 Nov 04 - 08:32 PM (#1320929) Subject: RE: oldest Folk songs still sung? From: JohnB The one which we still do now and again was published about 1575 I think for maybe. 1600 +/- a couple for sure by Ravenscroft. It's called "Martin said to his Man" Don't run away and take your ball back, hang around and play. JohnB. |