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20 Nov 98 - 08:59 AM (#46240) Subject: This phrase has been bothering me for years.. From: It is from a song that I heard many years ago but I cannot remember more than this and it continues to haunt me. It goes something like "...the bontiro, the bontiro, the lovely blue-eyed bontiro..." As I remember it was from a Scotch or Irish song related to the sea. There was an ambiguity between a ship and a girl which that word bontiro (however it may be properly spelled) referred to. In any case I would really like to learn more about the song that it comes from if for no other reason than to resolve this thing that floats through my head. Thanks for any help. Harvey Fishman (fishman@panix.com) |
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21 Nov 98 - 02:58 AM (#46334) Subject: RE: This phrase has been bothering me for years.. From: Jon Bartlett As I understand it, the bontiro is a subspecies of mudcat, found mostly in the waters of the Isle of Mann. :> jon the offsider |
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21 Nov 98 - 06:59 AM (#46340) Subject: RE: This phrase has been bothering me for years.. From: Philippa B for Barney, R for Ross All for my love Barney Ross All the world will never never know The love I had for my ban- tier (spelling?pronounced tire) o
My ban-tier o, my ban-tier o --that's the way I remember it. A song from linen mills is my guess; Barney must have tied up strings on the looms or something like that. That might help someone else to give you the information or you might look up a book on a relevant topic (I think there's one title "Tie Up Your Ends" - ?) I'll add another note when I remember the name of a man I heard singing this song (on a recording), He's still in Belfast and doing TV and film production, I believe his company is called "Flying Fox" |
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21 Nov 98 - 08:49 AM (#46344) Subject: RE: This phrase has been bothering me for years.. From: Barbara 'Tie up your ends' is "Doffin' Mistress" and the Silly Sisters sang it. It's in the database. I have heard the other song sung, and my memory agrees with Phillipa. I do remember wondering if he was 'the ban-tyer rogue', except the young woman speaks so fondly of him . Blessings, Barbara |
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21 Nov 98 - 12:06 PM (#46367) Subject: RE: This phrase has been bothering me for years.. From: Philippa I just remembered the name of the singer I was thinking of, Davy Hammond. Other Belfast area musicians who would be knowledgeable about mill songs include Maurice Leyden and Kathleen McPeake (of the McPeake family) Regarding the line "Tie up your ends", yes it is in the song about the Doffing Mistress, but I think it's also been used for the title of a book about the mill lasses. They had a lot of songs. "The Doffing Mistress" used to be sung when the Mistress was leaving the factory and her underworkers would sing "Tie up our ends we will surely do for [retiring Mistress] but not for you". Okay, I'm taking this thread off on another tangent now, but it IS interesting: Ann Brolly of Coalisland, Co Tyrone, N Ireland (now living in Claudy, Co Derry) has a version called The Doffing Master: "Oh, Tommy Rogers, are you going away/Is it tomorrow or is it today/You've left us here with a broken heart/For there's no one else that will take our part." Ann heard that Tommy Rogers was a Doffing Master in Coalisland and that he was sacked because he drank to much. But Tommy had good raport with his workers and they went on strike - practically unheard of in those days, especially for women - esp. in Ireland - to demans his reinstatement. I'd love to know more about Tommy Rogers. But if only we knew half as much about "Barney Ross"! |
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26 Nov 98 - 06:02 PM (#46891) Subject: RE: This phrase has been bothering me for years.. From: Philippa I haven't got any more info in the songs or about linen mills yet, but the chorus just happened into my head
fan a winnow, winnow, winnow |
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26 Nov 98 - 06:57 PM (#46896) Subject: RE: This phrase has been bothering me for years.. From: Martin Ryan. Davy Hammond is the man alright! His "I am the wee falorie man" album was recently re-released on CD and includes " 'B' is for Barney" of which he says:
"A band-tier was the man who bundled the lengths of thread as they came from the spinning frames"
Regards |
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27 Nov 98 - 08:44 AM (#46962) Subject: RE: This phrase has been bothering me for years.. From: Peter T. A bandtier sounds like a good label for this fine group of mudcatteers. What a pleasure to read. Yours, Peter T. |
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16 Jan 99 - 10:39 AM (#54391) Subject: Lyr Add: FAN-A-WINNOW From: Philippa I had the wrong title for Betty Messenger's book. It's "Picking up the Linen Threads: a study in industrial folklore" published in 1978, Austin, Texas, by U of Texas Press - and in 1980 by Blackstaff Press, Belfast, N Ireland. Lyrics for "Fan-a-Winnow" are included in Carmel O'Boyle. "Cut the Loaf: The Irish Children's Songbook", Cork, Ireland:MercierPress, 1986.
- I hope to be able to provide the ABC in due course - Philippa |
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16 Jan 99 - 02:06 PM (#54428) Subject: RE: This phrase has been bothering me for years.. From: Sandy Paton Caroline and I learned the song, many years ago, from Hammond's recording which, if I rememebr rightly, was on Tradition Records. At first, we were enchanted by the term in question. Sounded like a cross between a banshee and a vampire! Learned soon enough that it referred to the band-tier in the mill, thus avoiding embarrassment in the presence of more knowledgeable folk. 'Tis a lovely song, indeed, that we still enjoy singing. It's good to see all those early recordings being re-released as CDs. Give 'em all new life! Sandy |
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17 Jan 99 - 11:21 AM (#54523) Subject: RE: This phrase has been bothering me for years.. From: John Moulden The band-tier's principal task was to replace the loops of thread which, in a spinning machine, transmitted power from a central wheel to the individual spindles upon which were placed the spools or bobbins which when full the doffers "doffed" (removed and put on new ones, and rethreaded the woven linen thread on the new bobbin). Philippa referred to the book "Picking up the Linen Threads" which is the source of most of the above. John |
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17 Jan 99 - 12:20 PM (#54529) Subject: RE: This phrase has been bothering me for years.. From: Alice On another thread called Loving Hannah, it was Martin Ryan (thanks, Martin) who identified Davy Hammond for me as the singer on a cassette of "Irish Folk Songs". On the cassette, he starts with "B"is for Barney and then ends on side two with "Fan-a-Winnow", inserting some of the B is for Barney lyrics into Fan-a-Winnow. Here is a cut and paste from that thread:
Steve, I found the recording of the Irish Girl, with the slow sad tune similar to Circle be Unbroken. I don't know if you will be able to find this tape... but it's a good one. It is of anonymous singers, and the song is sung by an old Irishman. It is called simply, "Irish Folk Songs" and was in the bargain rack for about $6.US. It is made in Candada, the cassette has written on it, Excelsior International, Distributed by the Madacy Music Group, Inc, P.O. Box 1445, St-Laurent Quebec, Canada H4L 4Z1.
Songs listed are,
And then children and a woman singing
Subject: RE: Loving Hannah
Alice
I thought that track listing sounded familiar! I have a Tradition CD reissue ("I am the Wee Falorie Man") of an album by Davy Hammond, of Northern Ireland, originally issued in 1959. It's identical! Only himself and and guitar though.Could it be him? |
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17 Jan 99 - 12:34 PM (#54532) Subject: RE: This phrase has been bothering me for years.. From: Alice In the memoirs of my great aunt Alice Flynn Tucker, she writes about my great grandmother: "My mother's name was Bridget Keaveny [Flynn]. She was educated in a girls' school in Cornocloy where manners, carriage, and all that goes to make a lady were taught. Mother's father was a weaver, so her work was to thread the shuttles for him. Her father, Thomas Keaveny, came from Glen Carr as an orphan when twelve years of age to Glenfarne to work for a weaver, Mathew Tomson, and learned the trade from him. He used to make linsey-woolsey suits for men and linen table cloths and sheets. The tablecloths had a figure woven into them." The small town trade of a weaver was different than the large factory weaving in a city, but just the bits and pieces I have learned make me curious to know more about the weaver's life. Thanks for the definitions. It makes Fan-a-Winnow a more meaningful song to me now. alice in montana |
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17 Jan 99 - 07:31 PM (#54586) Subject: RE: This phrase has been bothering me for years.. From: Roddy Memories, memories, A lot of the women in my mother's family worked in the linen mills - including herself - though she was always at pains to emphasise that she was never a "doffer". This was the most menial and unskilled work in the mill. At the other end of the status ladder came the weaver the acme of the linen-worker's craft. Thus the old mill song of vulgar insult which claims that the doffer will "never get a man" while the weaver "will always get a man". The woman in charge of the doffers was the Doffing Mistress. The misspelling "doffin" has somehow become accepted as something almost sacrosanct. Why perpetuate error ? Roddy |
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24 Jan 99 - 07:23 AM (#55451) Subject: RE: This phrase has been bothering me for years.. From: Philippa John Moulden sent me another verse, which is printed in Betty Messenger. "Picking Up the Linen Threads": There were three doffers in a room, O but the were posies, The sang so sweet, so very, very sweet, To charm the heart of the band-tier O. |
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24 Jan 99 - 11:39 AM (#55462) Subject: RE: This phrase has been bothering me for years.. From: Darwin My favorite weaving song was recorded by 'Darby and Tarlton' concerning mill work on the Appalachia piedmont. Some interesting references are: "...rest from fillin' batteries" "Very often well flag the fixer When his head are bendin' low You may think that he's a-loafin' When he's earning all he knows Very often we'll have a breakout It will surely make you sweat ....." The song addresses the condition of working machine-like and feeling 'poorly' as all breaks down. There is a verse regarding advice to a prospective employee - don't do it. |
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06 Feb 99 - 02:35 AM (#57455) Subject: Tune Add: FAN-A-WINNOW From: alison Hi, Here is the tune, (Philippa the GIF was very difficult to read... so I hope the tune is OK...... ).
MIDI file: FANAWIN.MID Timebase: 480 Name: FAN-A-WINNOW This program is worth the effort of learning it. To download the March 10 MIDItext 98 software and get instructions on how to use it click here ABC format: X:1
Slainte alison |
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07 Feb 99 - 07:05 PM (#57570) Subject: RE: This phrase has been bothering me for years.. From: Nancy (inactive) There is this song, not really folk or blues as far as I know, that I can remember only two lines of the chorus. Can anyone point me in the right direction? What I remember... Ooo-eee, ride me high Tomorrow's the day my bride's gonna come. Oh no, we gonna fly, Down in the easy chair. thank! You ain't Going Nowhere in the Digital Tradition. |
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07 Feb 99 - 08:58 PM (#57580) Subject: RE: This phrase has been bothering me for years.. From: katlaughing Wasn't that done by Pure Prairie League? It was late sixties/early seventies and was on the charts, I'm sure. I know the song, just can't remember the name; but I've got the tune down great! Somebody on here will know it! Kat |
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07 Feb 99 - 09:00 PM (#57581) Subject: RE: This phrase has been bothering me for years.. From: Barbara Are you kidding, kat? It's Bob Dylan. |
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07 Feb 99 - 09:00 PM (#57582) Subject: RE: This phrase has been bothering me for years.. From: katlaughing Nancy, I should've checked the DT before I wrote. If you type in "easy chair", one of the ones that comes up is, "You Ain't Goin' Nowhere" by Bob Dylan, which is the song you are looking for. Have fun, kat |
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08 Feb 99 - 11:27 AM (#57643) Subject: RE: This phrase has been bothering me for years.. From: katlaughing Barbara, I was just taking a "stab in the dark", no kidding! Kat |
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08 Feb 99 - 10:41 PM (#57733) Subject: RE: This phrase has been bothering me for years.. From: Nancy (inactive) "You Ain't Going Nowhere" - you know, now that you mention it, I knew it was a Bob Dylan song, but somehow became convinced that I was wrong. Okay, that's the very next song that I'm gonna learn. Thank you! |
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08 Feb 99 - 11:25 PM (#57739) Subject: RE: This phrase has been bothering me for years.. From: catspaw49 But it did get my wife Karen goin' somewhere...after several futile attempts, that song got her to try guitar "one more time"...and this time she's doing much better! And she learned that first. Thank you Bob. catspaw |
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09 Feb 99 - 11:18 AM (#57820) Subject: Tune Add: FAN-A-WINNOW From: Philippa Threads do diverge in strange directions and this one has the sort of general title that's asking for multiple queries, especially when people are having technical difficulties starting new threads. From 20 Nov '98 through 6 Feb. '99, this thread had 17 entries all concerning weaving songs, connected to the original enquiry about "the lovely blue-eyed bontiro". So shift off that easy chair ye Dylanites as the thread returns to the straight and narrow. I know of two songbooks which include this song. Both are published by Mercier Press of Cork: Carmel OBoyle. "Cut the Loaf: The Irish Children's Songbook", 1986 David Hammond. "Songs of Belfast" John Moulden describes this book as "slim but interesting with children's songs, mill songs general songs and some politics" Both books are available from John Moulden at Ulstersongs (N Ireland) You'll also find a link at the Mudcat links page. I e-mailed Alison a GIF of the page from Hammond's book. Alison graciously provided a MIDI and ABC, but she said the GIF image wasn't very clear and some notes might wrong. I compared Alison's ABC with Hammond's notation and came up with the ABC below. I'm not experienced at ABCs, so may yet have to add another corrective message! The notation given in Carmel O'Boyle's book is slightly different again. By the way, Harvey Fishman never wrote again after his initial enquiry. Nor did he acknowledge my e-mail to him. Has anyone else heard from Harvey whetherFan-a-Winnow is the same song he remembers? It does seem probable.
X:1 |
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18 Aug 01 - 10:01 PM (#530939) Subject: RE: This phrase has been bothering me for years.. From: GUEST,pankel The line is from a song done by Joan Baez-I sing it all the time,even though the words are nonsense.I don't remember which album it's on,but it's a collection of her songs out 4 or 5 years ago.Hope this helps. |
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19 Aug 01 - 06:15 PM (#531370) Subject: RE: This phrase has been bothering me for years.. From: Mr Red Phillipa Pete Coe tells the story of an old school singer who he reckons wrote the "Doffing Mistress". It may have borrowed heavily from phrases familiar in the trade &/or similar songs. He is quite sure on the contemporary nature of it though. |
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17 Jan 04 - 01:08 PM (#1094923) Subject: RE: This phrase has been bothering me for years.. From: GUEST,rlyon8052CHARTER.NET What is the origin of "knit pickers". |
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17 Jan 04 - 01:32 PM (#1094947) Subject: RE: This phrase has been bothering me for years.. From: rangeroger Guest above. Nits are the eggs of lice. When monkeys or apes are grooming one another,they are ridding each other of body insects such as fleas and lice and their eggs. Thus nit-picking. They also are removing flakes of salt and dead skin. Obviously a human nit-picker is one who indulges in criticizing the most trivial,miniscule and least important of another's mistakes. Which has nothing to do with weaving. Maybe. rr |
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17 Jan 04 - 05:01 PM (#1095064) Subject: RE: This phrase has been bothering me for years.. From: GUEST,JTT Link to lyrics of that oo-ee one: http://no-direction-home.at/goinnowh.htm |
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17 Jan 04 - 08:19 PM (#1095206) Subject: RE: This phrase has been bothering me for years.. From: Emma B You might easy know a doffer When she comes into town With her long yellow hair And her PICKERS hanging down With her rubber tied before her And her scraper in her hand You might easy know a doffer For she'll always get a man. Obviously looking for nit wits! |
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17 Jan 04 - 08:27 PM (#1095209) Subject: RE: This phrase has been bothering me for years.. From: Joybell I first heard "B for Barney" sung by The Clancy Brothers, in the 60s, but I heard the last line as "....the love I have for my Barney-O". I must listen again more carefully. What an interesting thread this is. Joy |
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13 Mar 05 - 12:47 AM (#1433483) Subject: RE: This phrase has been bothering me for years.. From: Dave'sWife Speaking of weird phrases in songs..and Pure Praire League..have any of you ever made ANY sense out that song of theirs which was a B-side but which you can find on their Greatest Hits compilation which is called: She Darked The Sun ??? The final line of the chorus seems to be: And with the length of her mind, She darked the Sun. What's up with THAT?? I have never seen all the lyrics and it's been years since I've heard it. I know I have the CD somehwere. It seems to be a song about a young guy "down in New Orleans" being taken severe advanatge of by an older woman with some kind of evil intent. It's a catchy tune and you find yourself singing along with it until you stop and say..."what in heck is trying to say here? She darked the SUN..with the LENGTH OF HER MIND???" Freaky. |
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13 Mar 05 - 09:46 PM (#1434032) Subject: RE: This phrase has been bothering me for years.. From: GUEST,Anne Croucher A knit picker is a tiny latchhook used to repair or improve fabrics, usually there was a length of cord, on one end was a small loop with a fine pin hanging with the head through a hole in the loop(so it could be replaced if it should get bent or broken) On the other end of the cord was the latch hook, and both pin and hook fitted into a holder. The holder had a ring for a chain to secure it, through which the cord also passed so the tools could not be left behind. By using these tools faults in the weaving were minimised, so increasing its value, but it was painstaking work. I just recently worked on a length of seersucker which had several bad faults where long loops of the weft had been woven in. By using a latch hook from my knitting machine and a quilting pin I managed to draw out the excess and then work it along the weft to the selvage, and then close the gap in the weft with the pin. If left unheld weaving yarn will spiral on itself so it is essential that it is held under light tension all the time. I sing a song with the verse My bobbins all out, my ends all down The duffers in the alley and I can't get round CHORUS Hard times at the mill, Ma love Hard times at the mill. Which I should probably ammend to 'doffer'? Or as duffer is someone who is a rather dim no hoper is it actually the same word? I assume it is the same root as to doff one's cap - the doffer's task is removing the full bobbins of spun thread and replacing them with empty ones? Anne |
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14 Sep 05 - 04:32 PM (#1563760) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: This phrase has been... (Fan-a-Winnow) From: GUEST The phrase is from "The Doffer's Song", the "buntiro" is Gaelic, this spelling is phoenetic. There are CDs of Irish music available with this song on them. |
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14 Sep 05 - 05:06 PM (#1563780) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: This phrase has been... (Fan-a-Winnow) From: MartinRyan GUEST Not so, I'm afraid. Read the earlier entries. Regards |
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29 Jan 06 - 09:30 PM (#1657660) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: This phrase has been... (Fan-a-Winnow) From: GUEST Refresh |
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01 Feb 06 - 10:01 AM (#1659044) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: This phrase has been... (Fan-a-Winnow From: GUEST,Bob Coltman Yes, Philippa, ABC it for us, please ... great song! Bob |
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01 Feb 06 - 06:18 PM (#1659557) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: This phrase has been... (Fan-a-Winnow) From: Barbara Bob, if you go up to the top of this thread and click on the MIDI link, your computer will (probably) play the tune that Philippa transcribed. It's a little different than the tune I learned from Susan Frank, who learned it from Sandy and Caroline, who learned it from David Hammond's recording, as it says above. Blessings, Barbara, and is there a way to get a copy in any form of Son of Child? |
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02 Feb 06 - 04:08 PM (#1660382) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: This phrase has been... (Fan-a-Winnow) From: GUEST,DannyC I love the sigh that David Hammond breathes into his recorded version of this song. I try to find a hint of it in my own efforts. To add to the talk of trades (sorry for the diversion): My own ancestors were careful to illustrate their rise in the Glasgow textile factory world by listing their exact rank. So Charles McGinn clearly identified himself as a Hacklermaker Journeyman (Bachelor) while his father, Michael, was denoted as a Flax Hackler. Likewise, his wife Mary listed herself as Flax Millikiner (Spinster) while her daugher (my grandmother) was listed (once reaching the Woonsocket, RI mills) as merely - "Mill Hand". |
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02 Feb 06 - 04:19 PM (#1660394) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: This phrase has been... (Fan-a-Winnow From: dick greenhaus Barbara: You can get Son of Child (just re-released on CD), from (who else?) CAMSCO Music. Call me at 800/548-FOLK (3655) |
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03 Feb 06 - 05:00 AM (#1660864) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: This phrase has been... (Fan-a-Winnow) From: GUEST,Guest, Big Tim "Winnow" as defined in Webster's Dictionary - "to separate and drive of as chaff by subjection to wind or a current of air [fan]". In the 1960s, there was a Belfast folk group called The Winnowers, which included Tom Hickland, later of Five Hand Reel, with Dick Gaughan, Bobby Eaglesham, et al. |
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26 May 06 - 07:01 PM (#1748187) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fan-a-Winnow From: GUEST,brianbeag You can see The Winnowers (along with several other re-incarnations from the sixties)in a Reunion gig at Belfast's Waterfront Hall on Saturday June 3 |
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27 May 06 - 05:22 AM (#1748351) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fan-a-Winnow From: Big Tim Should be a great night. |
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04 Sep 07 - 10:19 AM (#2140588) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: This phrase has been... (Fan-a-Winnow) From: GUEST,Guest just trying to find out about the word "falorie" as sung by Dave Hammond? Is there anyone can tell me what a "falorie" is? I have never come across the phrase and am assuming it must be from the north rather than the south of Ireland. If anyone can help I would be most grateful |
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04 Sep 07 - 10:37 AM (#2140600) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: This phrase has been... (Fan-a-Winnow From: Celtaddict Well, we have covered band-tiers and mentioned fan-a-winnow, and I know what 'winnow' means, as above. Is 'fan-a-winnow' just a bit of a work chant while one is fanning, to winnow? Is it used in weaving, for example to fan away the stray fibers? |
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04 Sep 07 - 05:56 PM (#2140938) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: This phrase has been... (Fan-a-Winnow From: Celtaddict Guest of 10:19, welcome; why don't you take a name so we know you again? Membership is free and makes it easier to follow up on this sort of question. Anyway, the name 'Falorie' occurs occasionally in the UK, primarily around Gloucestershire. It is cited in the 1891 census here: Falorie in Gloucester http://www.ancestry.com/learn/facts/Fact.aspx?fid=6&yr=1891&ln=Falorie (cut and paste if the blicky doesn't work) |
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04 Sep 07 - 06:01 PM (#2140945) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: This phrase has been... (Fan-a-Winnow From: Celtaddict If you Google 'falorie' you get 2,880 hits, I checked the first 80. Three involve German kennels (apparently a famous stud hound/line named Falorie), there is this one (above), and every other one is a reference to the song 'I Am a Wee Falorie Man." One site in the first eighty is in Irish. |
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26 Sep 07 - 10:58 PM (#2158190) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: This phrase has been... (Fan-a-Winnow) From: Dave'sWife Falorie reminds me of a man's name which is spelled various odd ways but is pronounced with an unaspirated F (sounds a bit like a v) spelled in English most likely as - Falorah with a slight emphasis on the middle Syllable. I think it's a gaelicized version of Vallory. It's in my family but I have no clue how it's properly spelled. We called him "Val" |
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13 Feb 10 - 11:41 PM (#2838643) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: This phrase has been... (Fan-a-Winnow) From: GUEST,Lauren The version of the song I know is called "The Doffer's Song" by Freeman on the When Irish Eyes are Smiling CD. However, I do not know what the lyrics are, though I believe some of you have the right oens |