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25 Mar 05 - 06:18 AM (#1443343) Subject: Traditional songs re. homosexuality From: Glynis Does anyone know of any traditional songs which refer in any way to homosexuality? It is possible that some songs - for example those relating to men going away to war, etc. - are from the perspective of a grieving lover of either gender. Does anyone know of songs where this might be explicit rather than implicit? Has anyone else done any research into this area? |
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25 Mar 05 - 06:29 AM (#1443349) Subject: RE: Traditional songs re. homosexuality From: Keith A of Hertford Kippling is not quite traditional, but Pete Bellamy used to sing many of his songs to traditional tunes. There is one he sang called Follow Me Home which was about the close bond of comradeship between men. It had the line, Surpassing the love of women. Keith. |
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25 Mar 05 - 07:38 AM (#1443391) Subject: RE: Traditional songs re. homosexuality From: Noreen Betsy Bell and Mary Grey comes to mind- this thread discusses the lesbian associations of the song. Also see earlier thread Historical gay/lesbian/bisexual songs? |
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25 Mar 05 - 07:50 AM (#1443398) Subject: RE: Traditional songs re. homosexuality From: greg stephens I dont know how clean you want to keep this thread, but I could quote a number of traditional vulgar songs with quite explicit references to homosexual practises. Would you like me to post some of them here? I am quite happy to, but I thought I would check first. |
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25 Mar 05 - 08:03 AM (#1443408) Subject: RE: Traditional songs re. homosexuality From: Glynis Might be best if you PM me - if they're trad. songs. Thanks |
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25 Mar 05 - 08:16 AM (#1443418) Subject: RE: Traditional songs re. homosexuality From: GUEST I'd like to know - just titles if they're easy to find... Actually no, quote the lyrics - surely nobody can be offended by traditional words. After all, everybody in the folk world is forward thinking and liberal, right?... |
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25 Mar 05 - 08:19 AM (#1443421) Subject: RE: Traditional songs re. homosexuality From: Tradsinger I always think that "The Handsome Cabin Boy" has a hint of this. The Captain's wife says to him "It's either you or I betrayed the handsome cabin boy." Does that imply that the Captain's wife is really a bloke and could possibly be the father of the child? How else would one explain this line? Answers on a postcard. Gwilym |
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25 Mar 05 - 09:22 AM (#1443451) Subject: RE: Traditional songs re. homosexuality From: CET I don't think you can read homosexuality into "Follow me Home". It certainly deals with love between men, but Kipling did not have the erotic kind of love in mind when he wrote that poem. I think he wanted to write about comradeship, particularly between soldiers who have (presumably, since this isn't dealt with in the poem) seen active service together, and the grief that the soldiers he knew felt on the untimely death of a friend. "Ford o' Kabul River" has a similar theme. Kipling was no prude, but I think this was one taboo that he didn't touch. Perhaps the Kipling scholars can prove me wrong. Edmund |
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25 Mar 05 - 09:32 AM (#1443458) Subject: RE: Traditional songs re. homosexuality From: GUEST,Allen Been reading Kipling all my life and haven't found any homosexuality in "Follow me Home" or indeed any others. It's strictly about the powerful comradeship between men, especially soldiers. Anyone who has been in the army can tell you the ties you form with your mates are very strong. Anyway, doubt there are really very many folk songs, if at all, about homosexuality. Do remember that homosexuality only become openly accepted fairly recently. It used to be illegal and very much a taboo. |
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25 Mar 05 - 09:54 AM (#1443471) Subject: RE: Traditional songs re. homosexuality From: Uncle_DaveO Tradsinger, I don't think one can read homosexuality into The Handsome Cabin Boy. The captain's wife (along with the listener) has observed that: a: The "cabin boy" has become pregnant and had a baby b: All members of the crew have denied responsibility c: There's only the captain and herself left to look to. Her comment that "It's either you or me has betrayed the handsome cabin boy" is ironically expressed. Since the wife could not have impregnated the "cabin boy", it must be the captain to blame. In effect, "It's down to us, and I couldn't have. Where does that leave you, my dear?" Of course earlier in the song the wife had looked at the "cabin boy" and "she would have liked to toy", but that was under the impression that this was indeed a real young man, so no homosexual content is there. Dave Oesterreich |
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25 Mar 05 - 10:19 AM (#1443483) Subject: RE: Traditional songs re. homosexuality From: GUEST,Joe_F The phrase "passing the love of women" in "Follow Me 'Ome" is from the story of Saul & Jonathan (2 Samuel 1:26). They, too, were army buddies. I have never been in the service, but I gather from the literature that such relationships usually do not involve sexual activity, tho it sometimes happens if the parties have the right temperament & courage and/or are drunk. There is what I take to be a comic reference to homosexuality in "The Shut-Eye Sentry": "There was me 'e'd kissed in the sentry-box / As I 'ave not told in my song, / But I took my oath, which were Bible-truth, / I 'adn't seen nothin' wrong." The sergeant was drunk, and the sentry shut his eyes & thought of England. (I don't know if that one has ever been set to music, but I wouldn't mind having it.) Also, my reading of "The Mary Gloster" is that the dying magnate's spoiled son was queer; but a queer friend of mine thinks he was just a sissy. I cannot think of any traditional song in which homosexuality *as a preference* is mentioned; but there are a few bawdy songs in which homosexual *activity* is described, in a polymorphous-perverse spirit, as evidence of sexual exuberance. In "The Pioneers", they fuck sheep, "nor care a damn if it's a ram"; Tom Bolynn, surprising his wife in bed with a friend, offers to sleep in the middle; and it is allowed that the time the Highland Tinker "fucked the butler was the finest fuck of all". --- Joe Fineman joe_f@verizon.net ||: It is the fate of fools to amuse their enemies and bore their friends. :|| |
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25 Mar 05 - 10:56 AM (#1443502) Subject: RE: Traditional songs re. homosexuality From: Uncle_DaveO I have to back off some on my last post, about The Handsome Cabin Boy. I think it was correct as far as it went, about the captain's wife. But I didn't follow the verse far enough. Picking up that verse: And now and again she slipped him a kiss And she would have liked to toy But 'twas the captain found out the secret of The handsome cabin boy. Just how did the captain find out the secret? If he thought initially that he was hiring a handsome boy, how did the discovery of the real sex come about? One can certainly infer that he saw his cabin boy as a sex object, and in exploring the possibilities discovered the real state of facts, and took advantage of them just as he had intended with "the handsome cabin boy". So, Tradsinger, I agree with you (sort of), but for other reasons. Dave Oesterreich |
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25 Mar 05 - 11:08 AM (#1443507) Subject: RE: Traditional songs re. homosexuality From: Abby Sale Greg, post what you will. Chances are theyre in the database, anyway. You may be thinking of the many sea-type songs that include a verse similar to: The cabin boy, the cabin boy, The dirty little nipper; He filled his ass with broken glass, And circumcised the Skipper! (In Good Ship Venus, Christopher Columbo, North Atlantic Squadron, anyway) and Columbo had a second mate he loved just like a brother, And every night below the decks they bung-holed one another. As above indicated, though, serious occurances in ballad is pretty rare. I've always thought the possibility in Bessie Bell was a real one but other explanations are equally or more logical. Immediately, the one that jumps to mind is the oblique reference in "The Tailor's Breeches." While not _about_ homosexuality, it shows a common knowledge of it & enough comfort with the topic to (implicitly) mock homosexuals. Tailors are considered fair game to mock. They are comical just by virtue of their professions. Much of the jest, however, is that the tailor might be thought a homosexual because he is forced to go home wearing the tavern-maid's skirts. (Clearly, cross-dresser = gay in the song.) Oh, how shall I get home again? They'll call me `Garden Flower,' And if ever I get my breeches back I'll never dance no more. Several sailors' songs have the same comic ending of the sailor slinking off down the street in dresses - Fireship, eg, and also The Merchant's Son. "Bessie Bell and Mary Gray" (Child #201, dating at least back to 1646) in some of the older texts shows a much expanded story over MacColl's two verses or the nursery rhyme versions. They've clearly committed some grevious sin, probably along with the young man from the village. (Megage a trois?) Bad enough, anyway that it kept them from burial in consecrated ground. Not suicide & extramarital sex alone wouldn't be enough. Child says the action occurs in Lednock, Scotland and that tradition there specifically locates their graves and carries the extra-textual information that the two were both daughters of local lairds, very attractive and that "an intimate friendship subsisted between them." McClintock's fairly serious bawdy version of his The Big Rock Candy Mountain, "The Appleknocker" is certainly about male-on-boy sexual predation. So the acts are lined out clearly but it's not any sense of "same-sex love." There are two tunes by Scott Skinner, in memory of General Sir Hector Macdonald, who committed suicide when on his way to face court-martial for homosexual activity. At the time Macdonald was Scotland's national hero; his army career had included winning the battle of Omdurman (despite his superior, Kitchener) and rescuing the Boer War campaign from the disastrous mess Kitchener had made of that (in pipe music terms, see "The 91st at the Modder River" or "The Highland Brigade at Magersfontein", both marking these defeats; Macdonald had been wounded at Magersfontein). Another "if only" verse is in WILLIE O' WINSBURY: But when he came before the king He was clad all in the red silk His hair was like the strands of gold His skin was as white as the milk "It is no wonder," said the king "That my daughter's love you did win For if I was a woman, as I am a man My bedfellow you would have been" So, such references are pretty rare and oblique or comic when they do come up. I checked keyword @homosexual (an actual existing keyword) in DigTrad and there are no references for it. There are probably more specific references to buggering sheep then there are to any form of inter-human "unnatural sexual acts" in English language traditional song. OTOH, moving to Greek, Turkish, native American, etc tradition where the notion is more institutionalized and you'd likely find lots of stuff. |
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25 Mar 05 - 11:11 AM (#1443509) Subject: RE: Traditional songs re. homosexuality From: greg stephens Not traditional, but one of Cyril tawney's songs has a homosexual theme(can't remember which).I think people are being a little coy here if they can't think of homosexual traditional songs, but I'm waiting for Glynis to give the OK to obscenity in her thread before I start. |
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25 Mar 05 - 11:56 AM (#1443546) Subject: RE: Traditional songs re. homosexuality From: Uncle_DaveO I can't imagine how anyone could start a thread with a title like RE: Traditional songs re. homosexuality and not fully expect to have direct lyrics on the subject posted. And I don't read Glynis's initial post as suggesting otherwise. She even asks about lyrics which are explicit rather than implicit. Dave Oesterreich |
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25 Mar 05 - 12:04 PM (#1443556) Subject: RE: Traditional songs re. homosexuality From: GUEST,Lighter at work Even more striking than "The Handsome Cabin Boy" is "Short Jacket and White Trousers." Bawdier and intended as humor is "The Shaver," given in bowdlerized form by both R. R. Terry and Stan Hugill. |
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25 Mar 05 - 12:25 PM (#1443572) Subject: RE: Traditional songs re. homosexuality From: Celtaddict Kipling's image was certainly masculine or even could be considered "hypermasculine" as was the general idealized image of the classic Englishman of his era, particularly the colonial ("pukka sahib" and such, magnificently sent up by P.G. Wodehouse among many others), but many twentieth century readers and analysts find his intense man-to-man bondings to be rather suggestive of the homoerotic. This has been an issue in, of all things, the Boy Scouts, as Kipling was evidently a hero and model for the early Scout organizers and leaders, and if you read, with contemporary sensibilities, the earliest editions of Boy Scout handbooks and such, there is a good deal of strong discouragement of anything remotely having to do with sex in general but much that is at least ambiguous about male-male relationships. We must remember we are reading Victorian-Edwardian era material with twenty-first century sensibilities. In the case of the older ballads, even more sociological change has ensued, but on the other hand many things (including homosexuality along with sexual activity in general) did not become as intensely suppressed until the Victorian era. That said, the nature and much of the strength and beauty of traditional music, and particularly the old ballads, is that they can and do speak to other generations and cultures; that "the more things change, the more they stay the same." Attention paid to particular aspects of humanity change, but the humanity itself is universal. So it hardly matters, in that way, what Kipling or any other originator, known or unknown, had in mind when writing the song. If there is a good song that can be interpreted in a way that speaks to someone today, it can and will be. While the specific history of a song, and the meaning of archaic or unfamiliar terms within it, are fascinating to me, the idea of what a song "really" means is elusive at best. |
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25 Mar 05 - 12:42 PM (#1443590) Subject: RE: Traditional songs re. homosexuality From: GUEST,Allen "but on the other hand many things (including homosexuality along with sexual activity in general) did not become as intensely suppressed until the Victorian era." Actualy there were a lot less executions for buggery in the Victorian era. As to the Pretty Cabin Boy it's a bit hard to maintain privacy. Any number of ways she could have been discovered. |
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25 Mar 05 - 12:47 PM (#1443594) Subject: RE: Traditional songs re. homosexuality From: greg stephens There is reputed to be an old Pathan (Afghan) song whose refrain means: There's a boy across the river With a bottom like a peach But alas I cannot swim. I can not confirm this from any of my Afghan friends(to tell you the truth, I'm too polite to ask if they know it). |
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25 Mar 05 - 12:48 PM (#1443595) Subject: RE: Traditional songs re. homosexuality From: Once Famous I don't know of any American traditional songs, thank God. wouldn't really want to hear them either. |
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25 Mar 05 - 12:50 PM (#1443598) Subject: RE: Traditional songs re. homosexuality From: GUEST,Cecil McBride It seems to me that the old whaler's song The Strapping Lad is a very clear recount of male-on-male relationships. Lines such as the following leave little doubt... Twas south of Greenland's icy shore with the lonely seagulls callin' Where Allan became Eleanor and dressed in a tarpaulin or consider... His feathered cap he wore askew in manner bright and gay bedecked with rings and ribbons We'd watch him on his way These lines are perhaps the most obvious... He was a very naughty boy though winsome in his way and the Strapping Lad said "call me Dad" and spanked him night and day I am surprised that no one has mentioned this song as of yet. Cecil McBride |
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25 Mar 05 - 01:08 PM (#1443617) Subject: RE: Traditional songs re. homosexuality From: GUEST,Allen That's Wounded Heart, a very famous Pushto song. Women for them were something you got married with and had sons by. For pleasure they preffered sodomy. It's one reason for the uprising in kabul during the first Afghan War. That behavior frustrated the women so much that they went and acted very loose with the British. This is turn outraged the cuckolded husbands who were very jealous of their women's honour. |
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25 Mar 05 - 01:10 PM (#1443620) Subject: RE: Traditional songs re. homosexuality From: GUEST,Allen Oh yes and many of the Medieval Persian poems were open celebrations of homosexuality. |
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25 Mar 05 - 01:16 PM (#1443627) Subject: RE: Traditional songs re. homosexuality From: GUEST That's no "old whaler's song." Trust me. |
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25 Mar 05 - 01:19 PM (#1443628) Subject: RE: Traditional songs re. homosexuality From: Uncle_DaveO Guest, Allen said, As to the Pretty Cabin Boy it's a bit hard to maintain privacy. Any number of ways she could have been discovered. But remember, "Twas the captain found out the secret of the handsome cabin boy." Not the crew, whose sleeping quarters she shared. Incidentally, "handsome", not "pretty" in the song. Though without doubt she was in fact pretty, when seen in that light. Dave Oesterreic h |
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25 Mar 05 - 01:42 PM (#1443644) Subject: RE: Traditional songs re. homosexuality From: GUEST,Allen Yes, sorry I ment to say handsome. A moment of absent mindedness. Weren't sleeping quarters of cabin boys seperate from the rest of the crew? |
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25 Mar 05 - 01:56 PM (#1443657) Subject: RE: Traditional songs re. homosexuality From: GUEST,Allen Never mind, I was wrong it seems. |
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25 Mar 05 - 02:24 PM (#1443683) Subject: RE: Traditional songs re. homosexuality From: Once Famous "Oh yes and many of the Medieval Persian poems were open celebrations of homosexuality. " Who but a homosexual would be aware of this stuff? |
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25 Mar 05 - 08:42 PM (#1443954) Subject: RE: Traditional songs re. homosexuality From: GUEST Anybody making a general study of medieval Perisan literature? |
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25 Mar 05 - 09:00 PM (#1443963) Subject: RE: Traditional songs re. homosexuality From: Once Famous Not a chance. |
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25 Mar 05 - 11:28 PM (#1444021) Subject: RE: Traditional songs re. homosexuality From: Cap't Bob "My Buddy" and "I Only Want A Buddy Not A Sweetheart" are two songs that I never considered to have anything to do with homosexuals. "My Buddy" I always considered to be a song about loosing comrades in war. A friend said that they sounded like gay songs. I know they have both been sung by a number of prominent performers. Any thoughts on these two songs. Cap't Bob |
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26 Mar 05 - 12:36 AM (#1444037) Subject: RE: Traditional songs re. homosexuality From: GUEST,Clint Keller Perhaps it's in the ear of the… belistener? I recall a pretty soldier boy in the Post Entertainment section at Fort Riley who was enraptured by Harry Belafonte's 'Danny Boy.' He was a dancer; liked to enter talent contests in his corset and net stockings. Some of the guys thought was a girl and tried to get a date with him; some knew he wasn't a girl and tried to get a date with him. All this in the Eisenhower '50's in the middle of Kansas and the middle of the First Infantry Division. And long before Rocky Horror. I can hardly believe it myself and I was there. --Friendly advice to Martin: The most outspoken anti-'queery" I ever knew turned out to be gay himself. Be careful not to protest too much. clint |
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26 Mar 05 - 03:52 AM (#1444074) Subject: RE: Traditional songs re. homosexuality From: alanabit Oh I am sure that Martin has now successfully defended his status as the most UNhomosexual male on Mudcat. Congratulations Martin. |
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26 Mar 05 - 05:30 AM (#1444097) Subject: RE: Traditional songs re. homosexuality From: Glynis I have suddenly realised, having read back through the posts, that I should have worded this differently. By 'explicit' rather than implicit, I'm not requesting graphic details, but songs where the existence of feelings of same sex love are made obvious, rather than implied. Hope that's clearer. |
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26 Mar 05 - 06:11 AM (#1444108) Subject: RE: Traditional songs re. homosexuality From: Gurney The Tawney song mentioned above is probably the parody of Frankie and Johnny, rewritten for the RN. I think it was called Stripey and Blondy, and Cyril MAY have written it, it has that authentic naval touch, but you'd have to ask him. "You can stuff your sherry," said Blondy, "and take your hand off that OD's knees!" He was her man, but he was doing her wrong. Hardly traditional. Can't remember ANY blatantly homosexual tradional songs. Even if the two scotswomen above were bent, it isn't obvious in the song. |
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26 Mar 05 - 07:04 AM (#1444126) Subject: RE: Traditional songs re. homosexuality From: Murray MacLeod From Abby Sale's post above ..."General Sir Hector Macdonald, who committed suicide when on his way to face court-martial for homosexual activity" ... That needs altering to General Sir Hector Macdonald, who committed suicide when on his way to face court-martial for alleged homosexual activity. There is overwhelming evidence that the charges against Hector MacDonald were trumped up by members of the Army Old Boy network who resented his meteoric rise to the top. |
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26 Mar 05 - 01:43 PM (#1444211) Subject: RE: Traditional songs re. homosexuality From: GUEST,Arty Thieme The old lumbercamp song with the line "<(>When you and I were weary from sacking on the shore." Art |
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26 Mar 05 - 02:15 PM (#1444232) Subject: RE: Traditional songs re. homosexuality From: Abby Sale Thanks for noting that, Murray. Possibly we could both have been clearer. Looking back at my own notes: Quoting Lyle in Greig~Duncan: Hector MacDonald (1853-1903) became a hero in Britain, and particularly in Scotland, following the spectacular part he played in the battle of Omdurman fought in the Sudan on 2 September 1889. He shot himself when about to be court-martialled on a charge which has never been divulged but which is presumed to have been one of homosexualty. "Hector MacDonald," Greig~Duncan FS Coll, #141. |
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26 Mar 05 - 02:57 PM (#1444253) Subject: RE: Traditional songs re. homosexuality From: GUEST He basically knew that was the end of his carreer, true or no. |
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26 Mar 05 - 03:00 PM (#1444254) Subject: RE: Traditional songs re. homosexuality From: Once Famous Thanks alanabit. It's an honor I proudly will keep. Guest, Clint Keller: No closet for me pal. Music of the nature discussed in this threat I can only say is completely perverted, so you don't have to worry about me being something I'm not. |
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26 Mar 05 - 05:36 PM (#1444377) Subject: RE: Traditional songs re. homosexuality From: Big Al Whittle There used to be a song sung by an old chap round here:- My name is Clarence but you can call me Clare Bet ya somebody knows it. However the view wasn't an enlightened one |
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26 Mar 05 - 05:47 PM (#1444382) Subject: RE: Traditional songs re. homosexuality From: GUEST so why you read it eh |
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26 Mar 05 - 06:12 PM (#1444394) Subject: RE: Traditional songs re. homosexuality From: GUEST Pentangle recorded a version of the Handsome Cabin Boy which (from memory)contained the lines 'One night upon the raging sea as we were going to bed, the captain said farewell my dear, I wish you were a maid. For your rosy cheeks and your ruby lips they are enticing me, and I wish dear God with all my heart a maid you were to me.' Sounds a bit what my mother in law used to call biosexual to me. |
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26 Mar 05 - 06:13 PM (#1444396) Subject: RE: Traditional songs re. homosexuality From: greg stephens Gurney: the Good Ship Venus is blatantly traditional and blatantly homosexual(not to mention blatantly heterosexual). So is the Sailors Alphabet. There's two for a start. |
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26 Mar 05 - 06:14 PM (#1444398) Subject: RE: Traditional songs re. homosexuality From: GUEST Biosexual, good one. |
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26 Mar 05 - 08:38 PM (#1444474) Subject: RE: Traditional songs re. homosexuality From: GUEST,Joe_F Gurney: "Stripey and Blondie" is not by Cyril Tawney, but is included in his anthology, _Grey Funnel Lines_, of 20th-century British Navy songs. It counts as traditional by my naive definition. Of course, it got its tune & plot from "Frankie and Johnny", but the details are different enough: the locale is Malta, the jealous Blondie blows up the whole bar (no rooty-toot-toot for her!), and, indeed, her rival is male, a fact that is mentioned with no fuss at all; the moral is simply "Never run an OD winger And a blonde barmaid as well". I would say that this song satisfies Glynis's query. Another song that (at least in one version) takes bisexuality for granted is "The Soldier's Litany". After praying for a wench, the soldier & sailor pray for a boy (Amen, said the sailor, may he bring us great joy. And if we have one boy then may we have ten: May we have a bloody orphanage! Said the sailor: Amen). --- Joe Fineman joe_f@verizon.net ||: People would never fall in love if they hadn't heard of it. :|| |
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26 Mar 05 - 08:48 PM (#1444484) Subject: RE: Traditional songs re. homosexuality From: GUEST,Lighter at work Guest's lyrics are quoted from "Short Jacket & White Trousers," not "The Handsome Cabin Boy." The only "Sailor's Alphabet" I know has nothing to do with any kind of sex. Would greg stephens please post his version ? |
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26 Mar 05 - 09:06 PM (#1444498) Subject: RE: Traditional songs re. homosexuality From: GUEST Martin Gibson, a raunchy old seaman With his shipmates was really a demon In peace or in war, At sea or on shore He could certainly dish out the semen. |
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26 Mar 05 - 09:18 PM (#1444508) Subject: RE: Traditional songs re. homosexuality From: GUEST Martin Gibson thought women quite scary And sex too revolting to marry. So he went out in curls And frowned on the girls Ang he got to be known as Fairy. |
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26 Mar 05 - 09:48 PM (#1444519) Subject: RE: Traditional songs re. homosexuality From: dick greenhaus Dunno how you're defining "traditional", but "Backside rules the Navy" would seem to fit in that bin. |
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26 Mar 05 - 11:23 PM (#1444574) Subject: RE: Traditional songs re. homosexuality From: Linda Mattson I don't know of any trad homosexual songs, but think that they exist or existed, but were probably censored over the years. I had a conversation with Bob Copper years ago, asking why his family didn't have any "bawdy" songs in their collection. He said that his mother (or was it his grandmother, not sure) had forbidden the writing down of songs with bawdy lyrics in the family's songbooks. Bob said that his mother (or grandmother) really looked down on the singing of this type of song in their house. He said these songs were sung in the pub, and this was one reason women didn't go to pubs, or didn't feel comfortable with the idea of going to pubs. (Another reason is because pubs were physically very dirty, and the women did the washing.) -Linda . |
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26 Mar 05 - 11:38 PM (#1444581) Subject: RE: Traditional songs re. homosexuality From: GUEST Given attitudes toward homosexuality before the 1970s, it's hard to imagine any openly and sympathetically homoerotic songs ever becoming "traditional" or even being sung in public. |
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26 Mar 05 - 11:40 PM (#1444582) Subject: RE: Traditional songs re. homosexuality From: Pauline L It is possible for men to love one another in a nonsexual way. Most of our culture is so homphobic that we often overlook this. I've seen a bumper sticker that says "Real men love one another," and the reference was clearly not sexual. |
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27 Mar 05 - 01:39 AM (#1444612) Subject: RE: Traditional songs re. homosexuality From: Gurney Thanks, Joe. When I performed regularly I learned a whole slew of songs for special occasions, like 'the Man-eating Shark' for a sub-aqua club, The Man at the Nore' and 'Jenny Wren Bride' and 'Stripy and Blondie' for a PO's mess. Don't think I've heard them for 30 years. I didn't, of course, sing them in front of Cyril, and I did acknowledge that I learned them from him. How to define 'Traditional' is a bit difficult, though, and a parody of a song that has a known author wouldn't qualify in my opinion. However, I will accept that your opinion, and anyones, is as valid as mine. Even a drunken rugby player's opinion. |
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27 Mar 05 - 02:24 AM (#1444619) Subject: RE: Traditional songs re. homosexuality From: Peter Kasin The CD "Salty Dick's Uncensored Sailor Songs" contains the explicit, homoerotic lyrics to "The Shaver" that Stan Hugill could not get published. One thing to consider is whether or not a song is about true homosexuality, or of about men in situations of expediency, where there are no women around for long periods of time (on a ship, for example) and they have sexual relations with each other as the only outlet for their carnal desires. Chanteyranger |
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27 Mar 05 - 10:35 AM (#1444788) Subject: RE: Traditional songs re. homosexuality From: Abby Sale Joe - I don't know of "The Soldier's Litany." Where might it be found. Chanteyranger - yes, that's part of what I was trying to say above. Dick - on the same good CD cited by Chanteyranger, there's "Asshole Rules the Navy." Is that the same song? The notes indicate only that it's a Royal Navy song. It's certainly explicit & comic but I think anti-homosexual. Hard to tell. I guess there are many, many "buggery" songs concerning the Royal Navy. Including http://www.mudcat.org/@displaysong.cfm?SongID=5249 - Sexual Life of the Camel. Of course, there are none at all for the US Navy. |
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27 Mar 05 - 10:58 AM (#1444799) Subject: RE: Traditional songs re. homosexuality From: Once Famous The Guest who made those limmericks is obviously a fag with sore hemmorroids. I feel like I was hit with a feather. |
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27 Mar 05 - 11:41 AM (#1444853) Subject: RE: Traditional songs re. homosexuality From: GUEST Margin probably bookmarked this thread |
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27 Mar 05 - 12:00 PM (#1444863) Subject: RE: Traditional songs re. homosexuality From: Uncle_DaveO Googled. Found this: A Soldier's Litany. Words and music by E. P. Medley. Harmonised by A. B. Allen E. P Medley Dave Oesterreich |
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27 Mar 05 - 12:41 PM (#1444891) Subject: RE: Traditional songs re. homosexuality From: Abby Sale I found that at Amazon.com, Uncle - I can't tell what it is, though - a play? |
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27 Mar 05 - 04:03 PM (#1445043) Subject: RE: Traditional songs re. homosexuality From: GUEST,padgett (at home) Re refence above 'My proper name is Clarence but you can call me Clare' sung by the late Tom Brown (Tom and Bertha) from Worksop, Tom was a traditional singer and well documented ~ his singing of 'The Reed Cutters Daughter' and 'The Baby's Name'for example: the song was written by John Mitch Mitchell from Worksop who is still writing 'em a retired nurse Cyril Tawney recorded 'Ladies buya pint for your fella if you want your family to plan' etc again from Mitch Mitch reckons I was the first to ask for My proper name is Clarence and to sing it 'the boozey Barnsley lads' also appear in one of his songs |
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27 Mar 05 - 04:47 PM (#1445086) Subject: RE: Traditional songs re. homosexuality From: GUEST,Lighter at work Chanteyranger, are those lyrics from Hugill ? Or have they simply been "re-dirtified" ? |
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28 Mar 05 - 03:14 AM (#1445335) Subject: RE: Traditional songs re. homosexuality From: GUEST,Terry Duggins You can sing the song to suit what ever gender your singing about. Joan Baez always sang ballads where she was sining to a woman NOT a man.-And who cares as long as the song is done well! |
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28 Mar 05 - 03:18 AM (#1445338) Subject: RE: Traditional songs re. homosexuality From: GUEST,Terry Duggins Where it says sining it should read singing-sorry |
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28 Mar 05 - 03:25 AM (#1445339) Subject: RE: Traditional songs re. homosexuality From: Peter Kasin GUEST Lighter, the liner notes state that it was collected from Stan Hugill. |
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28 Mar 05 - 05:00 AM (#1445388) Subject: RE: Traditional songs re. homosexuality From: GUEST The Baby's Name isn't trad, it's a music hall song. |
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28 Mar 05 - 07:52 AM (#1445451) Subject: RE: Traditional songs re. homosexuality From: GUEST,padgett (at home) Hy guest didnt mean to imply that the Baby's name was trad but sung by Tom and Bertha, there is of course a wavy line/grey area between music hall and trad and a lot of cross over, if youll pardon the pun taking account of the thread!! |
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28 Mar 05 - 08:29 AM (#1445463) Subject: RE: Traditional songs re. homosexuality From: greg stephens Re the query about the Sailors Alphabet. There is certainly a clean version "A is for anchor etc". I was thinking of the alternative version that starts: "A is for arsehole surrounded by hair And B is the bugger who wants to be there". Not exactly great literature, but eminently traditional. |
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28 Mar 05 - 09:36 AM (#1445500) Subject: RE: Traditional songs re. homosexuality From: GUEST,Joe_F Abby: See the thread "Origins: Soldier and a Sailor: The Soldier's Prayer". I can't figure out how to make a link to it. --- Joe Fineman joe_f@verizon.net ||: Cheap repairs for the cheap 'uns. :|| |
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28 Mar 05 - 09:51 AM (#1445508) Subject: RE: Traditional songs re. homosexuality From: GUEST,Uncle DaveO The song that I know (of) called The Soldier and the Sailor or which might be called The Soldier's Prayer has nothing to do with homosexuality that I can fathom. The one I'm talking about is on Mike Seeger's Southern Banjo Styles, and at least as sung by him, is a highly moralistic little song. Dave Oesterreich |